Topic: Jack and Ennis -- bisexual or gay or human?

[dr bill]

In short as humans and with such a very limited time on this planet, we should spend more time learning and loving and less labeling and fighting.

Cowboy, words to live by.  Awesome!

[cybernaut]

Totally agree.

[Troy]

Someone was asking about percentages. Kinsey said that 37% of men had at least one homosexual experience leading to orgasm. I think many were in adolescence though, and not repeated.  This is common.

I believe that labels can't be applied to a lot of us, but that they can be applied to some, those who are 6's and 0's and remain 6's and 0's throughout their lives, with no desire to ever change, and they do make up a significant percentage. So I wouldn't throw out all labels for everyone, just for those who don't fit into them.

Of course, it's a bit more complicated. You could be a 6 physically but a 5 emotionally, a 6 in terms of experience, but a 5 in terms of fantasies, etc. You might have to chart yourself on each of many indices of 6 to 0. It sounds ridiculously complicated, but then, thats what psychologists do, those in the area of psychometrics.  It keeps them busy and happy. I studied this. I think we need more work in this area, it's pathetically simplistic right now.

[hephaestion]

I agree, Troy, that we need more research on this.  The problem with the Kinsey scale is a problem of bias.  What I mean is, in a society where most aren't free without judgment to "be" whatever sexual orientation they are (which I maintain is predominantly bisexual of varying degrees), most people cannot admit, even to themselves, that they may have homosexual tendencies.  Society or religion or even your friends and family still looks mostly negatively at homosexuality.  Especially back in the 60's. Therefore, most likely fool themselves into denial. 

If you cannot even admit to yourself, how is a bunch of interviews going to find out?  This is the bias in the Kinsey approach.  There needs to be devised a truly objective and verifiable way of identifying the quantity of homosexual thoughts, urges, and fantasies each of us has.  Basing statistical graphs on how many sexual acts the average person has had is not the correct way to go.  Actions alone do not determine one's sexuality.... a virgin who dies young still has a sexuality.  We need ways to physically measure arousal, as in elevated hormones, blood pressure, eye pupil dilation, breathing rate, and brain wave patterns or real-time CAT scans.  Perhaps surprise and expose the poor lab subjects to super gorgeous, friendly, seductive, young and tan nude males and females, very closeup and in private, and when the subject is drunk and uninhibited? 

All the while monitoring their vital signs, lol.

Alas, what would this prove.  Even in the face of scientific evidence proving our largely bisexual nature, most would not accept this.  Look at the theory of evolution.  Or when The Church was shown by Copernicus that the world was round and not flat.  They rejected it.  As would most of our society, at least in this decade.

The bright side is that Ang Lee and BBM has opened yet another door to the path of truth.  And the fact that the DVD pre-order is #1 also says something.  In the privacy of their own homes, people can explore the world of Ennis and Jack without the fear of societal stigma.  More are curious and seeking justification of their own bisexuality than is openly admitted.  At least this is what I'd like to believe.

That, and we all really like a good, moving love story.

[dr bill]

Kinsey was not a psychologist but rather a zoologist.  Go figure!  He did study psychology in his undergraduate years according to the information I read.   

Sexuality is an idea.  Ideas can challenge another person's beliefs and when this occurs a historical course of action repeats itself...an attempt to destroy the person or persons who have the challenging "idea."  What is more important is our definitions of ourselves.  We pick those definitions and when we choose too few we are subject to feelings of insecurity.  Sexuality is one definition in a myriad of my definitions.

[tpe]

Kinsey was not a psychologist but rather a zoologist.  Go figure!  He did study psychology in his undergraduate years according to the information I read.   

Sexuality is an idea.  Ideas can challenge another person's beliefs and when this occurs a historical course of action repeats itself...an attempt to destroy the person or persons who have the challenging "idea."  What is more important is our definitions of ourselves.  We pick those definitions and when we choose too few we are subject to feelings of insecurity.  Sexuality is one definition in a myriad of my definitions.

drbill, beautiful post.  Perhaps not everyone may agree with you, but you said your opinion beautifully.  Thanks.

[dr bill]

Thanks tpe!  It is just one way of looking at it.  For every perspective there might be, there is a person who believes it.  It is that person's point of view that matters.  Perceptions are kaleidoscopic in nature...shifting through patterns of experiences as life changes.

[hephaestion]

Thanks tpe!  It is just one way of looking at it.  For every perspective there might be, there is a person who believes it.  It is that person's point of view that matters.  Perceptions are kaleidoscopic in nature...shifting through patterns of experiences as life changes.

I respectfuly disagree with a particular implication that can be gotten from your post.  It seems to imply that every single person's point of view is equally as valid as any other person's point of view.  While it may be comforting to feel your perspective is just as valid as anyone else's, I dont' believe this is at all true.

Surely your don't believe that the perspective of a deranged serial killer, a religious zealot, a 3rd grader, a documented genious, an alcoholic housewife, a slightly retarded 40 year old, a backwoods bigot, or a Brooklyn gangster all have equally valid points of view?

[dr bill]

A person's point of view is based on their life experience even if it is morally or ethically wrong.  It still remains their perspective.  Each person believes that what they see, feel and do is valid.  However, I am not speaking about the validity of a person's perspective...but rather it IS what the person believes.  I was referring to perspectives in the context of sexuality (homo, bi or heterosexuality).  Each person's perspective is not necessarily a fact or based upon truth...it is their opinion based upon their life experiences, how they were brought up, and so on.  We each are going to see a sunset in a different way...we are going to see the world in a vastly different way.  Our attitudes about our experiences will vary.  I do not imply validation of a person's perspective nor do I imply acceptance or agreement with their perspective...but I merely state that each person is going to view sexuality based upon their life experiences, beliefs and such. 

I might want to know a person's perspective to understand why they might do what they do or think the way they do.  A valid point of view is only going to matter to that person...no one else...since our point of view may never be the same. 

[greenfrog]

As far as I'm concerned, they're just human (isn't everyone?) As humans, it's so easy for as to become attracted to another person whether it's puppy love, a healthy (or not so healthy) love for someone who doesn't share the same feelings (ie, student - teacher ....), mutual love or .... well I could keep going on. Ennis and Jack were just two lonely men who fell in love. And I think we all thank them for it every day.


*Sigh* Love 

[BBBOY]

As far as I'm concerned, they're just human (isn't everyone?) As humans, it's so easy for as to become attracted to another person whether it's puppy love, a healthy (or not so healthy) love for someone who doesn't share the same feelings (ie, student - teacher ....), mutual love or .... well I could keep going on. Ennis and Jack were just two lonely men who fell in love. And I think we all thank them for it every day.


*Sigh* Love 

Thank you greenfrog, nice post.

[Patriot1]

We need ways to physically measure arousal, as in elevated hormones, blood pressure, eye pupil dilation, breathing rate, and brain wave patterns or real-time CAT scans.  Perhaps surprise and expose the poor lab subjects to super gorgeous, friendly, seductive, young and tan nude males and females, very closeup and in private, and when the subject is drunk and uninhibited? 

All the while monitoring their vital signs, lol.

I participated in a study like that once.  They sent in this very handsome, well built guy and I broke the meters the reaction was so high.  They replaced the equipment and they sent in this atractive brunette.  In a few minutes they sent in the crash cart thinking I was dead. The equipment registered nothing.

[forbiddenlovers]

In my mind, human, nothing more, nothing less. We are not labels, but purely human beings.

But, for sake of the movie I want to make a comment.

I keep watching and wondering if Jack is gay or if Ennis is gay, in relation to this movie.  When Ennis says "you know I ain't queer" and Jack pauses and just his expression says it all to me. Then when he says "me, neither" watch his eyes, watch his expression. It's as if he's lying, he's gay and he's not going to say it out loud. Yes, I know he gets married, etc, but as I have stated before, that's what you did back then.  Not that it matters, it really doesn't, but it's something I always wonder what they are trying to tell us in the movie.

ann

[Newt]

I'd say that they're human.

But if I HAD to pick labels for them I'd say that Ennis is bi and that Jack is also bisexual; but they're on opposite sides of the sexual spectrum.  Jack is bisexual but more into men and Ennis is bisexual but more into women.

Like in the scene where Ennis and Jack are talking about having sex with their wives and Jack says "oh we could do it on the telephone...", and how Jack wound up going to mexico and picking up a trick (1 night stand) and how he ended up getting with the other rancher that was married.

Or how Ennis had sex and relationships with other women besides his wife.

[TheBoyFromNoWhere]

i do believe that gay or bi are kinds of human.  so for me, they are human.
however, they might have sex with both man(for ennis)/men(for jack) and woman(for ennis)/women(for jack).
i'm not sure about gay or bi.  if ennis enjoys sex with both man and woman, he could be bi.  however, i don't really know that ennis enjoys having sex with alma or not.  i think that gay man can also have sex with woman.  if so, he is called bi.  and if he choose to have sex with just man avoiding with woman, he is called gay.  it's all about physical thing.  so i think gay could be bi... and bi could be gay.  (i'm not saying about the one who wants to change his gender.)  it's all about what gender he choose to do with.

for me, i know i choose to be honest with my b/f. :-[  :-[  :-[  :-[  :-[  so i may be bi or gay... whatever you call.

sorry, if i don't make my opinion clear.  i really am.

[tpe]

i do believe that gay or bi are kinds of human.  so for me, they are human.
however, they might have sex with both man(for ennis)/men(for jack) and woman(for ennis)/women(for jack).
i'm not sure about gay or bi.  if ennis enjoys sex with both man and woman, he could be bi.  however, i don't really know that ennis enjoys having sex with alma or not.  i think that gay man can also have sex with woman.  if so, he is called bi.  and if he choose to have sex with just man avoiding with woman, he is called gay.  it's all about physical thing.  so i think gay could be bi... and bi could be gay.  (i'm not saying about the one who wants to change his gender.)  it's all about what gender he choose to do with.

for me, i know i choose to be honest with my b/f. :-[  :-[  :-[  :-[  :-[  so i may be bi or gay... whatever you call.

sorry, if i don't make my opinion clear.  i really am.

I think I know what you mean here.  Is sexual orientation more of a physical or psychological state of mind?  Usually, they are intertwined, IMO, so it is a difficult thing to delineate with precision.

[NoReins]

Of course they're human. Loving someone is the most wonderful human emotion there is - and it doesn't matter whether the other person is the same sex as you or not, it's the love that matters.

I'm going to risk the wrath of Chameau here by quoting a passage from Human Interest, just because I honestly feel that MadLori puts it far better than I could....for anyone who hasn't read it, this is Ennis speaking.....and he's absolutely right.

“Dammit, why’s it all gotta be about what to call folks?” he exclaimed. “Why you gotta put a damned label on everbody? When we was married to women we was straight, but now we’re with each other we’re gay or queer or homosexual or whatever. Why’s it gotta be like that? Ain’t it enough just to say that I’m spendin’ my life with Jack ‘cause he’s my fella and I chose him, and all that means is just exactly that!”

[tpe]

Of course they're human. Loving someone is the most wonderful human emotion there is - and it doesn't matter whether the other person is the same sex as you or not, it's the love that matters.

Who has the heart to disagree with this?

NoReins, thank you. 

[Asali]

Human of course, everyone is, what else could you be a robot 

[tpe]

Human of course, everyone is, what else could you be a robot 

Or dead.  No wait, even the dead have souls. 

[CrimsonSky]

Fascinating thread, thanks everyone for all your contributions
 I've always been puzzled by Ennis's use, in the ss motel scene, of the plural "women", as far as I can tell, the only woman he'd been with at that point was Alma I always thought the "you may be a sinner..." line, about him being a virgin, meant with women, as well as men, so unless he had sex with some other woman between leaving Brokeback and marrying Alma (which he could well have done,imo, to maybe prove to himself he definitely wasn't gay), he wasn't really comparing sex with men to sex with women, he was just comparing sex with Jack to sex with Alma, and obviously there was only going to be one winner there
I think that's what, in Ennis's case at least, makes the question of his sexuality irrelevant, his one and only real sexual attraction in his life is to Jack, and Jack happens to be a man.I don't get the impression he likes doing it with Alma that much (at least not the "conventional" way), but regards it as a chore, part of his duty as a husband, but I don't think it's because she's a woman, it's simply because she's not Jack. If Jack had been a woman, or if Ennis had felt for Alma what he'd felt for Jack, he'd be 100% heterosexual,cause he'd never feel the need, or the desire, to be with anyone else (I know there's Cassie, but he wouldn't have given her a second glance if she hadn't made the moves, and his heart's never really in it ).We never get to see Ennis in a similar situation with a goodlooking man trying to chat him up, but if we did, I bet he wouldn't be interested either, and not just because of the fear he had of being gay,but because it wouldn't be Jack.
I don't know if any of this makes sense, but Ennis's "saving himself", for want of a better expression, for Jack, is quite a romantic notion,the idea that sex is something almost sacred, to be shared only with someone who you connect with on an emotional level. Jack is the more outwardly romantic one, yet he has no problem separating sex from love, he can see sex as a purely physical need that has to be fulfilled, totally separate from what he has with Ennis, his soulmate, where the sex is the physical manifestation of the emotional connection between them.
 So, if we're talking labels, I'd say Jack was definitely gay,not so much because of Mexico, and Randall, because I don't think any of that would have happened if he'd been with Ennis, but because he'd been with men before Ennis, and obviously enjoyed it, but with Lureen, even though he's attracted to her on some level, it's obvious that sex with her just doesn't feel right to him, beyond the fact she's not Ennis, but if she was a man, he'd have no problem. Ennis, on the other hand,it's impossible to say for sure, I guess Kinsey will have to invent a new category for people who are only attracted to Jack F***in' Twist :-[       

[welshwitch]

Basically what you're saying, Crimsonsky, is that some of us are monogamous - fall in love once and that's it, don't want other relationships or sex for fun - while others fall in love once but can dissociate that from sex, and then others again fall in love over and over. Whether it's with their own sex or the other seems pretty much irrelevant - if you love someone, you love them, not which they are - the rest, whether you do anything about it or not, is down to social, cultural, etc conditioning.

[CrimsonSky]

Basically what you're saying, Crimsonsky, is that some of us are monogamous - fall in love once and that's it, don't want other relationships or sex for fun - while others fall in love once but can dissociate that from sex, and then others again fall in love over and over. Whether it's with their own sex or the other seems pretty much irrelevant - if you love someone, you love them, not which they are - the rest, whether you do anything about it or not, is down to social, cultural, etc conditioning.

Yes, thanks, welshwitch, that's exactly what I was trying to say, except I don't have the ability to say it so clearly and concisely :-[ My dad always said I talked too much, I think my dad was right :-[

[gimmejack]

In my mind, human, nothing more, nothing less. We are not labels, but purely human beings.

But, for sake of the movie I want to make a comment.

I keep watching and wondering if Jack is gay or if Ennis is gay, in relation to this movie.  When Ennis says "you know I ain't queer" and Jack pauses and just his expression says it all to me. Then when he says "me, neither" watch his eyes, watch his expression. It's as if he's lying, he's gay and he's not going to say it out loud. Yes, I know he gets married, etc, but as I have stated before, that's what you did back then.  Not that it matters, it really doesn't, but it's something I always wonder what they are trying to tell us in the movie.

ann

I think Jack felt he HAD to say that so he wouldnt run Ennis off...I think he was on the line.

[tpe]

Fascinating thread, thanks everyone for all your contributions
 I've always been puzzled by Ennis's use, in the ss motel scene, of the plural "women", as far as I can tell, the only woman he'd been with at that point was Alma I always thought the "you may be a sinner..." line, about him being a virgin, meant with women, as well as men, so unless he had sex with some other woman between leaving Brokeback and marrying Alma (which he could well have done,imo, to maybe prove to himself he definitely wasn't gay), he wasn't really comparing sex with men to sex with women, he was just comparing sex with Jack to sex with Alma, and obviously there was only going to be one winner there
I think that's what, in Ennis's case at least, makes the question of his sexuality irrelevant, his one and only real sexual attraction in his life is to Jack, and Jack happens to be a man.I don't get the impression he likes doing it with Alma that much (at least not the "conventional" way), but regards it as a chore, part of his duty as a husband, but I don't think it's because she's a woman, it's simply because she's not Jack. If Jack had been a woman, or if Ennis had felt for Alma what he'd felt for Jack, he'd be 100% heterosexual,cause he'd never feel the need, or the desire, to be with anyone else (I know there's Cassie, but he wouldn't have given her a second glance if she hadn't made the moves, and his heart's never really in it ).We never get to see Ennis in a similar situation with a goodlooking man trying to chat him up, but if we did, I bet he wouldn't be interested either, and not just because of the fear he had of being gay,but because it wouldn't be Jack.
I don't know if any of this makes sense, but Ennis's "saving himself", for want of a better expression, for Jack, is quite a romantic notion,the idea that sex is something almost sacred, to be shared only with someone who you connect with on an emotional level. Jack is the more outwardly romantic one, yet he has no problem separating sex from love, he can see sex as a purely physical need that has to be fulfilled, totally separate from what he has with Ennis, his soulmate, where the sex is the physical manifestation of the emotional connection between them.
 So, if we're talking labels, I'd say Jack was definitely gay,not so much because of Mexico, and Randall, because I don't think any of that would have happened if he'd been with Ennis, but because he'd been with men before Ennis, and obviously enjoyed it, but with Lureen, even though he's attracted to her on some level, it's obvious that sex with her just doesn't feel right to him, beyond the fact she's not Ennis, but if she was a man, he'd have no problem. Ennis, on the other hand,it's impossible to say for sure, I guess Kinsey will have to invent a new category for people who are only attracted to Jack F***in' Twist :-[       

Your conclusions are interesting CrimsonSky , and they are valid as any.

I do think marriage with Alma provided Ennis with a means of satisfying his sexual needs.  I am not trying to directly answer the question as to whether he enjoyed it or not.  But I do think that there is satisfaction in the sexual act itself. 

Having said that, I do think there is a deeper level of sexual fulfilment -- something that cannot just be addressed in physcial terms.  There is the psychological and spiritual aspects to contend with, and in this arena, I do think it was Jack and only Jack who provided for Ennis. 

Does the ability to perform and enjoy to some level the sexual act with a female partner bars that person from being gay?  I think not necessarily.  And it does not prove bisexuality altogether.  I think gayness goes to a deeper level, the criteria being very similar to that which is met by Ennis's love for Jack.  Certainly, Ennis's monogamy with Jack does not discount gayness either.  His inability or not wanting to have sex with other men does not mean that he is not attracted to them.  As in the case of a monogamous relationship between husband and wife, either partner is certainly not immune to the charms of other individuals.  Hence, Ennis's monogamy with Jack can be purely his choice, and does not necessarily prove a lack of attraction to the same sex.

What I am also implying here is that the case of Jack can be treated in a similar light.  His openly seeking out other male partners does not necessarily rule out bisexuality, although it must be admitted that the component that is attracted to the same sex is more prominent.  Also, the film does not really discount sexual relations with Lureen altogether.  There is a lack of information in this regard, unlike in the case of Ennis with Alma.

Hence my conclusion still rests in a context of sexual ambiguity.  My belief that sexual proclivity is a continuum perhaps biases me from the start.  But I do think in the case of Ennis and Jack, it can be argued that the specificity of their sexual orientations is far from definitive.

My opinion.

[welshwitch]

Crimsonssky. I think your dad was wrong. Communicating your thoughts as you're thinking them is interesting - anyone can sum them up after you've formulated them in the first place.

In the end whether you're bi or gay or hetero comes down, I think, to what you allow yourself to do. Clearly it's possible to have a sexual relationship with anyone who attracts you, if they're willing; clearly also sex without love is possible, as is sex with only ? interest/attraction/liking and some affection - this is what I think Jack found with Lureen. If you're romantic and a purist ? puritan you find the one and that's it; if like Jack you're a romantic but not puritanical you keep the dream but adapt to reality as well, or give in to desperation - hence Randall and Mexico. If the one is the "wrong" sex you either accept it or fight it - that's Ennis.

[CrimsonSky]

I do think marriage with Alma provided Ennis with a means of satisfying his sexual needs.  I am not trying to directly answer the question as to whether he enjoyed it or not.  But I do think that there is satisfaction in the sexual act itself. 

Oh yes, I agree that Ennis would have enjoyed the sexual release of sex with Alma, but based on the sex scenes between them, I get the feeling that he would have prefered to stick to "wringing it out a hundred times" thinking about Jack.But again, that's just my opinion

Crimsonssky. I think your dad was wrong. Communicating your thoughts as you're thinking them is interesting - anyone can sum them up after you've formulated them in the first place.

Thanks welshwitch.Maybe my dad was wrong then, I dunno, I could never please my dad, no way

In the end whether you're bi or gay or hetero comes down, I think, to what you allow yourself to do. Clearly it's possible to have a sexual relationship with anyone who attracts you, if they're willing; clearly also sex without love is possible, as is sex with only ? interest/attraction/liking and some affection - this is what I think Jack found with Lureen. If you're romantic and a purist ? puritan you find the one and that's it; if like Jack you're a romantic but not puritanical you keep the dream but adapt to reality as well, or give in to desperation - hence Randall and Mexico. If the one is the "wrong" sex you either accept it or fight it - that's Ennis.

Totally agree with this. On the basis of my own experiences, I'm 100% heterosexual, but I'd never discount the possibility that I just haven't met the right woman yet!

[tpe]

I do think marriage with Alma provided Ennis with a means of satisfying his sexual needs.  I am not trying to directly answer the question as to whether he enjoyed it or not.  But I do think that there is satisfaction in the sexual act itself. 

Oh yes, I agree that Ennis would have enjoyed the sexual release of sex with Alma, but based on the sex scenes between them, I get the feeling that he would have prefered to stick to "wringing it out a hundred times" thinking about Jack.But again, that's just my opinion

Crimsonssky. I think your dad was wrong. Communicating your thoughts as you're thinking them is interesting - anyone can sum them up after you've formulated them in the first place.

Thanks welshwitch.Maybe my dad was wrong then, I dunno, I could never please my dad, no way

In the end whether you're bi or gay or hetero comes down, I think, to what you allow yourself to do. Clearly it's possible to have a sexual relationship with anyone who attracts you, if they're willing; clearly also sex without love is possible, as is sex with only ? interest/attraction/liking and some affection - this is what I think Jack found with Lureen. If you're romantic and a purist ? puritan you find the one and that's it; if like Jack you're a romantic but not puritanical you keep the dream but adapt to reality as well, or give in to desperation - hence Randall and Mexico. If the one is the "wrong" sex you either accept it or fight it - that's Ennis.

Totally agree with this. On the basis of my own experiences, I'm 100% heterosexual, but I'd never discount the possibility that I just haven't met the right woman yet!

CrimsonSky, it's a fascinating question, isn't it?  We certainly don't need to arrive at a definitive answer for this.  But the discussion here is a sort of end to itself.  It makes us question who we are or what we think as a sexual being. 

Thank you so much for your thoughts. 

[CrimsonSky]

CrimsonSky, it's a fascinating question, isn't it?  We certainly don't need to arrive at a definitive answer for this.  But the discussion here is a sort of end to itself.  It makes us question who we are or what we think as a sexual being. 

Thank you so much for your thoughts. 

Thanks tpe I agree with you, there's no right or wrong answer, not just on this subject, but on most of the questions the movie raises, but it's fascinating to explore all the different angles people see it from I'm so glad this film was made now, and not 20 years ago, when we wouldn't have been able to discuss it like this

[welshwitch]

It's true that the net gives anonymity, almost instant contact over huge distances, selectivity - you can choose your company as you can't always on Planet Reality - and allows you to be whoever you want. You can label yourself if you want to, or not - the interesting thing is that you can also say what you like, test out and abandon ideas in a way that's not possible elsewhere.

Perhaps also discussions like this, and the fact that they're not susceptible to resolution, makes us realise the ambiguity of things. Neither Jack nor Ennis is entirely anything so labels are irrelevant.