Topic: "Rodeo, the Pissant Combine Salesman"

[manhattangirl]

Tony's as always had to "go there", and the the "there" is the layers of Jack Twist.   If we took Ennis out of equation for a little while.  Who was Jack? 

A boy longing for his abusive father approval, but knowing he would never please the old man, but continue to try.  Jack never cut the ties of childhood, his mother preserved it, by keeping his room the way it was when he was a boy.  "he seem to appreciate that".  Where Ennis feared his father, Jack longed for his. 

No matter how Jack tried he couldn't get that validation of his manhood from either his father, or LD.  The two Stud Ducks, put him down and kept him there.  I've always wondered is this the reason why Jack went to men, to get some kind validation by giving himself to them, looking for some sort of father figure to take him under his wing, and guide him into manhood, (Please don't come after me with torches ablazing, and a hanging rope, just a thought).

Jack struggle was finding self respect, to be respected.  He wanted to be Mr. Jack Twist, but ended up being "Rodeo, the pissant Combine Saleman".  In Texas, thats all he was.   His wife instead of supporting him resigned herself to idea he was just that.   Their marriage a mystery, did she know, did she suspect, or simply she married down instead of up, and it was too late to do anything about.  It was never so clear, as to Jack standing, when his son was born, treated no better that the help, he perform his husbandly duties, got Lureen pregnant and had a son, but reminded no better than a house worker. 

Then there was Ennis, someone who gave him respect, who look at him as a man equal to him.  He was Jack f#@king Twist, and Ennis accepted him as his friend, and his lover.

I'm just wondering from what we know, is Jack one dimensional, or just as complex as Ennis.   what do you think really made him tick, what went on in his life that made him the man he was.

 

   

[babytammy7]

Very good topic MG!!! 

I don't know what to say. Too many complicate thoughts in my mind to express them in English. 

I just wanted to say that I doubt that anyone is gonna go after you with a hanging rope because I read here, somewhere, that some brokies thought that Jack sought in Ennis the validation he didn't got from his father. Ennis gave him respect and friendship...but in some way, rejecting that sweet life, Ennis was rejecting Jack like his father did, and saying that Jack was a fool and a crazy dreamer (the river scene talking about Texas) Ennis was saying the same things that his father, that Jack was living in the clouds....always dreaming stupid things....And maybe Jack wanted to prove Ennis that his dreams could be a real thing; maybe he wanted to prove his father that he could do it; maybe he wanted to prove to himself that he was worth the trouble. As Zepth said once, Jack wants the daily partnership he's seen his parents have - he tries to be "loved." Jack knows he's got plenty of what he needs coming from Ennis, but he desperately needs it to be identified as "love", to reassure himself of the worth his father stole from him as a child. 

Someone said that Ennis and Jack were in some way traumatized because of their relation with their fathers, and everything they did in their lives had something to do with that. They live in order to prove things to their fathers or in order to hide from their fathers. Their relationship was conditioned by the conception they had about their fathers. Zepth said too that the real tragedy here is that both our boys have the love they need and want, but neither gets it that that's what they've got: and so it is, their own insecurities, beaten and shocked into them in childhood, which rule and destroy their lives.

I don't know well....That's what I read here at Ennisjack. I'll try to find that. But I can tell you that yes, Jack is as complex as Ennis. That's for sure. 

[Tony]

   This is a great topic, MG, but it's gonna be tough, because every time we go to Jack, we find the work is harder - untangling the man.  The SS and film didn't leave as much to work with as with Ennis.
   My own sense of Jack is that he was a threat to the existing tilt, in the West, at that time, as to male posing. By "posing", I mean what was expected of a male as far as social behavior. Examples of this are usually geographical, so, will try to point there.
  Decades ago, the neighborhoods of Brooklyn and the Bronx produced a unique kind of guy, friendly, wisecracking, good-natured. The ethnic groups were mostly Italian, with some Jewish and Irish.  In the South, the typical male was shy/friendly, easily vulnerable to anyone who seemed honest.
Midwesterners were casual and without any real markings.  Western guys held back, as if talking was criminally un-male.  A lot of WWII war movies made a big deal of the social explosions when all these groups were drafted and thrown in together.  Look those movies over again and you'll find that as a major theme - the different types of men, fighting together, from different regions.
  Jack would never have made it in Brooklyn- they would have rolled him.  But he had their liveliness and that just didn't fit in with the majority mode in the West.  Which was, walk slow, don't smile too much, and stick to those you've known for a while.
  Where did that liveliness come from?  That loving heart? Not many clues but a few point to his parents letting him grow up wild like a weed.  His Dad didn't encourage him to follow in his footsteps and seems to have become withdrawn and moody, early on.  His Mom didn't lay down any rules (she didn't force him to follow her religious faith- he barely knew what Pentecostal was).  There may have been a stand-off between his Mom and Dad, that prevented a joint program for raising Jack Twist.  So he grew up on his own, definitely not wanting to be deadened, like his father.
  Well, MG, that's a start from one person.  This is an excellent topic and I hope it weaves all over the place. The more territory covered, the better. IMO.

[Tony]

No matter how Jack tried he couldn't get that validation of his manhood from either his father, or LD.  The two Stud Ducks, put him down and kept him there.  I've always wondered is this the reason why Jack went to men, to get some kind validation by giving himself to them, looking for some sort of father figure to take him under his wing, and guide him into manhood, (Please don't come after me with torches ablazing, and a hanging rope, just a thought).



 

   

  Please forgive my being a "frequent flier" here - I love the topic.  Anyway, as far as Jack craving validation of his manhood, am not so sure of that.  He seemed very comfortable with himself there.  Arguably, his lack of guilt over same-gender sex puts Jack Twist into an advanced category of males, who do not let other males define their manhood.  Both gay and straight men, although in different ways, are victims of imposed group definitions.  Jack didn't have any interest in this at all.  He was very casually and naturally manly, knew enough to be discreet, but otherwise didn't give a damn on others defining his maleness or masculinity.  Maybe he could enjoy being the bottom guy, for this very reason- it had no derogatory implications that would bruise his ego.
And maybe all of this freedom derived from seeing what definitions had done to his father-turned him into a lonely old man sustained only by a patient wife.
  But Jack, while not needing validation of his manhood, or masculinity, did need validation of his being a person, or of his self.  And he wasn't getting much of that, except from Ennis.
  So, just that fine point.  A lot of guys are roaming around selling their souls just so the other guys will validate  their maleness or masculinity.  That's part of what's going on in street gangs.  Jack didn't need validation he was a man, he just needed acceptance (or validation) of his over-all self.  That's what I see, anyway.  I also see him as far more free than most gay and straight men.  He would not suffer himself to be defined.

[manhattangirl]

  Please forgive my being a "frequent flier" here - I love the topic.  Anyway, as far as Jack craving validation of his manhood, am not so sure of that.  He seemed very comfortable with himself there.  Arguably, his lack of guilt over same-gender sex puts Jack Twist into an advanced category of males, who do not let other males define their manhood.  Both gay and straight men, although in different ways, are victims of imposed group definitions.  Jack didn't have any interest in this at all.  He was very casually and naturally manly, knew enough to be discreet, but otherwise didn't give a damn on others defining his maleness or masculinity.  Maybe he could enjoy being the bottom guy, for this very reason- it had no derogatory implications that would bruise his ego.
And maybe all of this freedom derived from seeing what definitions had done to his father-turned him into a lonely old man sustained only by a patient wife.
  But Jack, while not needing validation of his manhood, or masculinity, did need validation of his being a person, or of his self.  And he wasn't getting much of that, except from Ennis.
  So, just that fine point.  A lot of guys are roaming around selling their souls just so the other guys will validate  their maleness or masculinity.  That's part of what's going on in street gangs.  Jack didn't need validation he was a man, he just needed acceptance (or validation) of his over-all self.  That's what I see, anyway.  I also see him as far more free than most gay and straight men.  He would not suffer himself to be defined.

I understand what you're saying,  but I am talking about Jack the man first, It just seem to me, that from his father to LD, to the two old guys who dubbed him pissant, to even the rodeo clown, his manhood was challenged.  Jack always seem to me, was considered less than.  You see it in Lureen she didn't at no time defended her husband, or seem too interested in him at all.  Was she influence by the other men around her, her father, even the two men sitting in her office labeling her husband. Texas, in those scenes seems to be full of strutting roosters.

I think that's was why he sought out Ennis again, and you're right, Ennis did accept Jack as the total human being, but he responded and respected him as man first, and never, never questioned that fact.

[tpe]

Tony's as always had to "go there", and the the "there" is the layers of Jack Twist.   If we took Ennis out of equation for a little while.  Who was Jack? 

A boy longing for his abusive father approval, but knowing he would never please the old man, but continue to try.  Jack never cut the ties of childhood, his mother preserved it, by keeping his room the way it was when he was a boy.  "he seem to appreciate that".  Where Ennis feared his father, Jack longed for his. 

No matter how Jack tried he couldn't get that validation of his manhood from either his father, or LD.  The two Stud Ducks, put him down and kept him there.  I've always wondered is this the reason why Jack went to men, to get some kind validation by giving himself to them, looking for some sort of father figure to take him under his wing, and guide him into manhood, (Please don't come after me with torches ablazing, and a hanging rope, just a thought).

Jack struggle was finding self respect, to be respected.  He wanted to be Mr. Jack Twist, but ended up being "Rodeo, the pissant Combine Saleman".  In Texas, thats all he was.   His wife instead of supporting him resigned herself to idea he was just that.   Their marriage a mystery, did she know, did she suspect, or simply she married down instead of up, and it was too late to do anything about.  It was never so clear, as to Jack standing, when his son was born, treated no better that the help, he perform his husbandly duties, got Lureen pregnant and had a son, but reminded no better than a house worker. 

Then there was Ennis, someone who gave him respect, who look at him as a man equal to him.  He was Jack f#@king Twist, and Ennis accepted him as his friend, and his lover.

I'm just wondering from what we know, is Jack one dimensional, or just as complex as Ennis.   what do you think really made him tick, what went on in his life that made him the man he was.   

I think Jack is more mysterious than Ennis.  In the ss, he is a very shadowy figure (as I have said in the past) and only in the remembrance of the dozy embrace do we see him in some sort of revealing light.  In the movie, the characterization is certainly NOT one dimensional.  I think the element of combined vulnerability and the will to fight makes the characterization much more complex than in the short story, IMO.   I do agree with you in that validation and the desire to find respect drives Jack throughout his life -- much more than the stoic Ennis, to be sure.  Perhaps some of us would think he aimed to high.  It is for this chasing after windmills that we call him The Dreamer.

[Tony]

I think Jack is more mysterious than Ennis.  In the ss, he is a very shadowy figure (as I have said in the past) and only in the remembrance of the dozy embrace do we see him in some sort of revealing light.  In the movie, the characterization is certainly NOT one dimensional.  I think the element of combined vulnerability and the will to fight makes the characterization much more complex than in the short story, IMO.   

    Hi, Thomas - am not sure the words "mysterious" and "shadowy" are good fits, unless we look at the SS presenting Jack as just a foil for Ennis, and then, maybe so.  IMO, the real Jack Twist was never fully developed by AP, and was born only of her hints and fleshed out by the screenplay writers, Ang Lee, and, of course, the greatly under-estimated contribution of Jake Gyllenhaal.  They fleshed the character out to an enduring reality.
  It may be the story is about Ennis.  After all, with only rare exceptions (the trip to Mexico, the Thanksgiving dinner), Jack doesn't even exist except when he is with Ennis.  We do know how Ennis lived, in between meetings with Jack. We know very little about how Jack lived.  In a lot of ways, Ennis is more real, with internal tensions, and Jack more mythical - the dreamy lover, no further complexities.
  For me that falls apart, the one-dimensional Jack, if and only if we take AP at her word (accidentally or deliberately given) that the description of the Dozy Embrace was Jack's perception of the event and not necessarily the reality.  And I tried to develop that, before, that there was plenty of evidence he got it wrong and we failed to challenge that.  If we DO challenge his perception of what that was, then we find a Jack with as many wrong ideas, fears, and defense mechanisms, as Ennis.  We find a Jack that got Ennis right so very many times, but got him wrong as to how deeply he, Jack was loved, for himself.
  Am trying to be careful on this thread, because we were given so little to work with by the creators of BBM.  But I think it's there, enough solid ground, to explore a Jack somewhat different from our own first version - just a dreamy lover.

[Rønnaug]

Where Ennis feared his father, Jack longed for his. 

Wonderful thoughts. I always thought Jake gave Jack more "flesh" than AP did But that is the drawback of a shortstory vs. a novel.

But this one line you wrote cought me. I am a woman, I have a good, loving and generous father that have always supported me, it is hard to imagine what Jack was going through because his was so different from mine.

But I think that the difference between Ennis and Jack here is that even though Ennis' dad was hardly any better, he might not have physically abused Ennis but the mental abuse was there in showing the boys the dead man and his whole idea about what had happened there. BUT, Ennis wasn't alone. Jack was. Jacks mum was every bit as subdued by Twist Snr as Jack was. Ennis' mum we don't know. But Ennis had a brother and a sister. Most importantly he had a older brother. Another "man" he could relate to.

I think this made alot of difference in how the two behaved like fathers as well. Ennis was more capable of loving his own daughters because he had been loved in some way. Jack had no idea how to do it.... So he didn't really want to be a dad and I am sure he didn't abuse his son, I am sure he loved him in his own way he just didn't know how to love him properly.

I think that Jake gave Jack a sadness we don't really see in the ss. He is what we call a Sunflower child. He had been brought up in an abusive environment but he still had the ability to want to love others. He tries, with Ennis, to go after a life he haven't had but still he isn't afraid to ASK Ennis for it

[babytammy7]

Wonderful thoughts. I always thought Jake gave Jack more "flesh" than AP did But that is the drawback of a shortstory vs. a novel.

But this one line you wrote cought me. I am a woman, I have a good, loving and generous father that have always supported me, it is hard to imagine what Jack was going through because his was so different from mine.

But I think that the difference between Ennis and Jack here is that even though Ennis' dad was hardly any better, he might not have physically abused Ennis but the mental abuse was there in showing the boys the dead man and his whole idea about what had happened there. BUT, Ennis wasn't alone. Jack was. Jacks mum was every bit as subdued by Twist Snr as Jack was. Ennis' mum we don't know. But Ennis had a brother and a sister. Most importantly he had a older brother. Another "man" he could relate to.

I think this made alot of difference in how the two behaved like fathers as well. Ennis was more capable of loving his own daughters because he had been loved in some way. Jack had no idea how to do it.... So he didn't really want to be a dad and I am sure he didn't abuse his son, I am sure he loved him in his own way he just didn't know how to love him properly.

I think that Jake gave Jack a sadness we don't really see in the ss. He is what we call a Sunflower child. He had been brought up in an abusive environment but he still had the ability to want to love others. He tries, with Ennis, to go after a life he haven't had but still he isn't afraid to ASK Ennis for it

Oh my, Esme!! How beautiful post!!  I agree with everything you said!!! 

I think Jack is more mysterious than Ennis.  In the ss, he is a very shadowy figure (as I have said in the past) and only in the remembrance of the dozy embrace do we see him in some sort of revealing light.  In the movie, the characterization is certainly NOT one dimensional.  I think the element of combined vulnerability and the will to fight makes the characterization much more complex than in the short story, IMO.   I do agree with you in that validation and the desire to find respect drives Jack throughout his life -- much more than the stoic Ennis, to be sure.  Perhaps some of us would think he aimed to high.  It is for this chasing after windmills that we call him The Dreamer.

Yeah, Thomas, Jack is mysterious in the SS. We saw him needed sex, more than Ennis. We knew that he had sex with many guys. We knew that the was with Randall....But then AP punched us with that beautiful part about the DE and we found that the most important thing for Jack was not have sex with Ennis!!! His favorite memory was a sexless one!!!
Then we knew that he loved Ennis, but maybe it was more friendship with sex than anything else...But once again AP and Jack shot our hearts and we found that Jack kept those shirts for 20 years, and his favorite place was BBM. I think that Jack had in his heart and in his mind a lot of things nobody got to see or understand. I think he was a deep ocean like all human beings.

[manhattangirl]

Wonderful thoughts. I always thought Jake gave Jack more "flesh" than AP did But that is the drawback of a shortstory vs. a novel.

But this one line you wrote cought me. I am a woman, I have a good, loving and generous father that have always supported me, it is hard to imagine what Jack was going through because his was so different from mine.

But I think that the difference between Ennis and Jack here is that even though Ennis' dad was hardly any better, he might not have physically abused Ennis but the mental abuse was there in showing the boys the dead man and his whole idea about what had happened there. BUT, Ennis wasn't alone. Jack was. Jacks mum was every bit as subdued by Twist Snr as Jack was. Ennis' mum we don't know. But Ennis had a brother and a sister. Most importantly he had a older brother. Another "man" he could relate to.

I think this made alot of difference in how the two behaved like fathers as well. Ennis was more capable of loving his own daughters because he had been loved in some way. Jack had no idea how to do it.... So he didn't really want to be a dad and I am sure he didn't abuse his son, I am sure he loved him in his own way he just didn't know how to love him properly.

I think that Jake gave Jack a sadness we don't really see in the ss. He is what we call a Sunflower child. He had been brought up in an abusive environment but he still had the ability to want to love others. He tries, with Ennis, to go after a life he haven't had but still he isn't afraid to ASK Ennis for it

I love this post.  Yes, Ennis all of what you've said.  But, Jack did have his mother, and she didn't always stand on the sideline, she did proctect as best she could her son, she took him to church with her, was it to get religion in him, or to keep him close to her, and away from his father, mothers do have a tendency to do that to their children, keep them  out of harms way.  Also there evidence she was the keeper of his secrets, and what was his important to him.  I doubt she would ever let that old man change anything in Jack's room, which could be the trade off concerning Jack's ashes.

Jack spent a lot of time talking about his old man.  How he couldn't please him, but still tried in someway.  Jack talked about how he would return dry up ranch, and whip it back into shape.  There was deep need for acceptance Jack needed from his father.
As far as his relationship with his son, he was concerned, he expressed worry about his schooling, he must have been a pain in the neck as far as little bobby teacher was concern, he tried to get Lureen involved, if she could get away from that adding machine.  I think Jack was probably a doting father.  Which may not jive with him wanting to leave and live a life with Ennis.   How could a father want to leave his son?  I've ask myself this question.   Maybe he thought leaving wouldn't make much of difference, his son would do OK, and very little resistance would be given.   But he stayed, not out fatherly concern, because Ennis wanted that way.  Jack for all its worth really didn't have a home, only the one in his mind, the home he wanted so much, a ranch of his own and Ennis. 
 

[tpe]

    Hi, Thomas - am not sure the words "mysterious" and "shadowy" are good fits, unless we look at the SS presenting Jack as just a foil for Ennis, and then, maybe so.  IMO, the real Jack Twist was never fully developed by AP, and was born only of her hints and fleshed out by the screenplay writers, Ang Lee, and, of course, the greatly under-estimated contribution of Jake Gyllenhaal.  They fleshed the character out to an enduring reality.
  It may be the story is about Ennis.  After all, with only rare exceptions (the trip to Mexico, the Thanksgiving dinner), Jack doesn't even exist except when he is with Ennis.  We do know how Ennis lived, in between meetings with Jack. We know very little about how Jack lived.  In a lot of ways, Ennis is more real, with internal tensions, and Jack more mythical - the dreamy lover, no further complexities.
  For me that falls apart, the one-dimensional Jack, if and only if we take AP at her word (accidentally or deliberately given) that the description of the Dozy Embrace was Jack's perception of the event and not necessarily the reality.  And I tried to develop that, before, that there was plenty of evidence he got it wrong and we failed to challenge that.  If we DO challenge his perception of what that was, then we find a Jack with as many wrong ideas, fears, and defense mechanisms, as Ennis.  We find a Jack that got Ennis right so very many times, but got him wrong as to how deeply he, Jack was loved, for himself.
  Am trying to be careful on this thread, because we were given so little to work with by the creators of BBM.  But I think it's there, enough solid ground, to explore a Jack somewhat different from our own first version - just a dreamy lover.

Yes, I think that in the original mode, the ss did pretty much take Ennis's point of view.  I had mentioned in a very old thread that the ss was indeed Ennis's story.  And yes, the original Jack was pretty much developed as a foil to the main character.  But AP ddi leave out 2 seeds by which the film made the charatcer flower: the metaphor of the rodeo rider, and the valedictory describing the Dozy Embrace.  The latter is the most beautiful passage in the entire ss, IMO, and I think it would have been enough of a seed for the development of the Jack Twist presented in the movie. It certainly ties in beautifully with the first "seed", by which we see Jack as the rider who tries to keep his seat over the years...

[tpe]

***

Yeah, Thomas, Jack is mysterious in the SS. We saw him needed sex, more than Ennis. We knew that he had sex with many guys. We knew that the was with Randall....But then AP punched us with that beautiful part about the DE and we found that the most important thing for Jack was not have sex with Ennis!!! His favorite memory was a sexless one!!!
Then we knew that he loved Ennis, but maybe it was more friendship with sex than anything else...But once again AP and Jack shot our hearts and we found that Jack kept those shirts for 20 years, and his favorite place was BBM. I think that Jack had in his heart and in his mind a lot of things nobody got to see or understand. I think he was a deep ocean like all human beings.

Perfect, Tammy.  You have read my mind when it came to the beauty of the DE passage. 

Even Jack's end was mysterious. 

Jack leaves us constantly guessing, even as the movie reveals a bit more about his hidden motivations and frustrations as the years go by.  We are constantly reminded of his inadequacy in many things, and we see him as a dreamer of dreams that don't seem to ever bear fruit.  He is buffetted on all sides, and he still quietly takes it all in.  And so Jack's characterization is far from one-dimensional; in truth, it can be very enigmatic at times.

The DE passage does give us some degree of assurance, even if it raises more questions about Jack that will never be fully answered.  This is the crowning enigma.

[Tony]

  I think Jack was probably a doting father.  Which may not jive with him wanting to leave and live a life with Ennis.   How could a father want to leave his son?  I've ask myself this question.   Maybe he thought leaving wouldn't make much of difference, his son would do OK, and very little resistance would be given.   But he stayed, not out fatherly concern, because Ennis wanted that way.  Jack for all its worth really didn't have a home, only the one in his mind, the home he wanted so much, a ranch of his own and Ennis. 
 

    MG, am not so sure Jack wanted acceptance from his father.  Looked more to me like he'd written him off, and the old man knew it.  Jack kept helping out at Lightning Flat, more, IMO, from a sense of duty, as well as concern for his mother.
    But another part of your post, quoted above, goes into something rarely mentioned- the relationship between Jack and his son.  Not much said there in the SS, so the film, I think drew reasonable conclusions and developed them.  We do see Jack teaching his son how to drive that big tractor, as a very loving father.  But we DON'T see any respect or loyalty shown from the son in the Thanksgiving fracas.  It's not too much of a stretch that the son was spoiled rotten by his grandfather and Mom and also picked up on their lack of respect for his Dad.  And so, as usual, Jack was  shunted off to the side.
  That must have happened very early, as Jack was willing to drop his wife and son, with no regrets, very early on.  He probably loved his son, but it was pretty well clear, he wasn't essential to his son's life.  So, MG, it really is true, I think, what you wrote--Jack didn't have a home except for the one he had in his mind, for himself and Ennis.

[aintfoolin]

Tony's as always had to "go there", and the the "there" is the layers of Jack Twist.   If we took Ennis out of equation for a little while.  Who was Jack? 

A boy longing for his abusive father approval, but knowing he would never please the old man, but continue to try.  Jack never cut the ties of childhood, his mother preserved it, by keeping his room the way it was when he was a boy.  "he seem to appreciate that".  Where Ennis feared his father, Jack longed for his. 

No matter how Jack tried he couldn't get that validation of his manhood from either his father, or LD.  The two Stud Ducks, put him down and kept him there.  I've always wondered is this the reason why Jack went to men, to get some kind validation by giving himself to them, looking for some sort of father figure to take him under his wing, and guide him into manhood, (Please don't come after me with torches ablazing, and a hanging rope, just a thought).

Jack struggle was finding self respect, to be respected.  He wanted to be Mr. Jack Twist, but ended up being "Rodeo, the pissant Combine Saleman".  In Texas, thats all he was.   His wife instead of supporting him resigned herself to idea he was just that.   Their marriage a mystery, did she know, did she suspect, or simply she married down instead of up, and it was too late to do anything about.  It was never so clear, as to Jack standing, when his son was born, treated no better that the help, he perform his husbandly duties, got Lureen pregnant and had a son, but reminded no better than a house worker. 

Then there was Ennis, someone who gave him respect, who look at him as a man equal to him.  He was Jack f#@king Twist, and Ennis accepted him as his friend, and his lover.

I'm just wondering from what we know, is Jack one dimensional, or just as complex as Ennis.   what do you think really made him tick, what went on in his life that made him the man he was.

 

   

 Thanks MG for this thread. Just catching up on some of the reading, but here we see that it's clear that Jack , like Ennis is a very complex figure also.

His childhood must have been a lonely one being raised in LF, a virtual *no man's land* out in the middle of nowhere. Talk about the *boonies*, what did he do for fun even as a child? Never even spoke of childhood friends or schooling.

Then there's the abuse, his father a distant , bitter man. It is this point I whole-heartedly  agree with, that this is the part of Jack that left him longing and desperate for something more , something better. Some one to hold onto to. Rejection followed him throughout his life. I see little Jack as a sensitive boy, wondering what else was *out there*? What would eventually become of him. I'm no Jack expert, having been brought up with (9) brothers and sisters and really can't relate to the lonliness of being an only child in rural Wyoming, I can only imagine.

Seems to me , he was run off the homestead to find a life , at 18 having to become a man fast, he takes to rodeo, an occupation where you only get paid, if you can hang on for 8 secs on a bucking bull. Who knows how much he suffered during that time. Nothing ever seem to come by him easy, so I feel he came to expect rejection , learning that , if he could'nt see it or feel it, ..it did'nt exist. So what drove  Jack,? alot of  hope and determination.

Unlike Ennis, no one taught him all the *manly* skills like shooting, hunting etc.., standards  by which men in his culture were just expected to know and were *judged* by these skills or lack of them. He had all rights to grow into a bitter soul, but he did'nt. It's amazing to me how he maintained the patience and emotional stamina to not become bitter, though it has been said that suffering brings character. He had that, , there was only one Jack.

He lacked a feeling of security and stability. For him to be validated as a man was important to him as I see it and I would tend to agree that he sought that security in other men sexually, but something tells me not quite.. I think he knew that that was something he had to find within himself. He had to make a way for himself as a man, a man worked, did what he had to do to survive, but the sexual part of him wanted the acceptance and comfort of who he was as a sexual being. It's natural and human for him to want sex, but I don't just don't feel he was seeking validation for himself as a man from it. IMO more for human comfort, to be held ,comforted, and for a sexual release.

In Ennis, I feel he found it all, what he sought, what he'd lost as a child, acceptance. In turn, he recieved from Ennis the knowledge that he could make another human being feel accepted . Let's face it, who of these *stud ducks* could tame someone like Ennis. Who else could wrap Ennis around his little finger with just a gesture or touch. who could do more for one like Ennis's self-esteem than Jack? I feel it is why he felt he'd always return to Ennis, for it was Ennis who bolstered his own self-worth. Not Lureen, LD, or any other man. With Ennis is where he knew he had sway, power, and a sense of control, stability and security. He could live with that, a dreamer, yes, but with Ennis it was lasting and steady. MHO. Thanx.

[tpe]

Unlike Ennis, no one taught him all the *manly* skills like shooting, hunting etc.., standards  by which men in his culture were just expected to know and were *judged* by these skills or lack of them. He had all rights to grow into a bitter soul, but he did'nt. It's amazing to me how he maintained the patience and emotional stamina to not become bitter, though it has been said that suffering brings character. He had that, , there was only one Jack.

He lacked a feeling of security and stability. For him to be validated as a man was important to him as I see it and I would tend to agree that he sought that security in other men sexually, but something tells me not quite.. I think he knew that that was something he had to find within himself. He had to make a way for himself as a man, a man worked, did what he had to do to survive, but the sexual part of him wanted the acceptance and comfort of who he was as a sexual being. It's natural and human for him to want sex, but I don't just don't feel he was seeking validation for himself as a man from it. IMO more for human comfort, to be held ,comforted, and for a sexual release.

It seemed to me that Jack's lack of siblings (being an only child, apparently) and his distant relationship with his father explains a lot in the total absence of a male role model in his life.  The more "feminine" aspects like his emotiveness can certainly be attributed to his mother, who Jack no doubt turned to in the absence of any masculine reinforcement.

In Ennis, I feel he found it all, what he sought, what he'd lost as a child, acceptance. In turn, he recieved from Ennis the knowledge that he could make another human being feel accepted . Let's face it, who of these *stud ducks* could tame someone like Ennis. Who else could wrap Ennis around his little finger with just a gesture or touch. who could do more for one like Ennis's self-esteem than Jack? I feel it is why he felt he'd always return to Ennis, for it was Ennis who bolstered his own self-worth. Not Lureen, LD, or any other man. With Ennis is where he knew he had sway, power, and a sense of control, stability and security. He could live with that, a dreamer, yes, but with Ennis it was lasting and steady. MHO. Thanx.

The same can be said about Jack's role with Ennis.  Both seemed to reinforce each other, and their shared experience of lonely childhoods seemed to have strengthened the affinity.

At the very least, Ennis had a brother and a sister.  It is interesting to note that Jack appeared more emotionally self-reliant than Ennis.  Perhaps it was out of necessity -- having had to resolve things inside of him all by himself very early on.

[manhattangirl]

It seemed to me that Jack's lack of siblings (being an only child, apparently) and his distant relationship with his father explains a lot in the total absence of a male role model in his life.  The more "feminine" aspects like his emotiveness can certainly be attributed to his mother, who Jack no doubt turned to in the absence of any masculine reinforcement.

The same can be said about Jack's role with Ennis.  Both seemed to reinforce each other, and their shared experience of lonely childhoods seemed to have strengthened the affinity.

At the very least, Ennis had a brother and a sister.  It is interesting to note that Jack appeared more emotionally self-reliant than Ennis.  Perhaps it was out of necessity -- having had to resolve things inside of him all by himself very early on.

Jack's tears in the truck after Ennis rejection of him in the divorce scene,  showed how deeply Jack could feel, it was right after that we see a harder, maybe a more bitter Jack.   Was it because it was Ennis who hurt him or  was it that self reliance he had to learn?

[myprivatejack]

It seemed to me that Jack's lack of siblings (being an only child, apparently) and his distant relationship with his father explains a lot in the total absence of a male role model in his life.  The more "feminine" aspects like his emotiveness can certainly be attributed to his mother, who Jack no doubt turned to in the absence of any masculine reinforcement.

The same can be said about Jack's role with Ennis.  Both seemed to reinforce each other, and their shared experience of lonely childhoods seemed to have strengthened the affinity.

At the very least, Ennis had a brother and a sister.  It is interesting to note that Jack appeared more emotionally self-reliant than Ennis.  Perhaps it was out of necessity -- having had to resolve things inside of him all by himself very early on.

I agree with you,Thomas,in that Jack had always a lack for a male role model;since his father's example served only to reinforce his need to demonstrate to everybody(and to himself firstly)that he was worthy of admiration and esteem for what and how he was.As I think it has been said formerly,this lack and desperate need for a man's approbation is present in his sexual and affective life with another men,even with Ennis-or mostly with him...-.Ennis gave him this approval he needed so much,as a worker,a friend,a man,a lover,and,in sum,as a complete human being;he made him feel appreciated for himself,with his qualities and his faults,knowing that he could learn from Ennis the same than Ennis could learn from him in all senses.For this reason,and as you say,he seems to me more self-reliant than Ennis,sometimes,and sometimes not so mature or so sure of himself;yes,he had to resolve problems by himself during all his life-no siblings to share them,no father reliable enough to trust in-and this develops a greater maturity.But IMO he always had a corner inside him that wasn't so sure of himself and his possibilities,also for this situation of having always been undervalued for the person who should have given him more security,his father...That's why I think as a answer to your question,MG

Jack's tears in the truck after Ennis rejection of him in the divorce scene,  showed how deeply Jack could feel, it was right after that we see a harder, maybe a more bitter Jack.   Was it because it was Ennis who hurt him or  was it that self reliance he had to learn?

that it was fifty-fifty of both circumstances:one more time he felt rejected by Ennis and his feelings were hurt,but at the same time his self reliance broke down somehow.I guess he always had the need to know for sure that Ennis loved him and accepted him,no matter how he was;and every time his dreams fade away,it was like a crack in his self-trust wall-not only a dissapointment in his perfect life together-.I don't know if all this makes sense...

[aintfoolin]

Jack's tears in the truck after Ennis rejection of him in the divorce scene,  showed how deeply Jack could feel, it was right after that we see a harder, maybe a more bitter Jack.   Was it because it was Ennis who hurt him or  was it that self reliance he had to learn?

 I think it was a little of both. Certainly he was hurt, disappointed and maybe just a little anger. Anger at himself that he had read too much into Ennis's postcard confirming his divorce. He seemed numb with disappointment as he walked back to his truck, but it was only when it sunk in, the tears came, the let down of the awful truth engulfed him. He had so much trust and hope that this was it, he and Ennis can finally be together. When Ennis did'nt even invite him to wait till later after he took the girls home, it was like a slap in the face to all his hope. Felt directionless and alone. I think it reinforced in him, a self-reliance for himself. From that point on, Jack was looking out for himself with much more caution.

[manhattangirl]

I think it was a little of both. Certainly he was hurt, disappointed and maybe just a little anger. Anger at himself that he had read too much into Ennis's postcard confirming his divorce. He seemed numb with disappointment as he walked back to his truck, but it was only when it sunk in, the tears came, the let down of the awful truth engulfed him. He had so much trust and hope that this was it, he and Ennis can finally be together. When Ennis did'nt even invite him to wait till later after he took the girls home, it was like a slap in the face to all his hope. Felt directionless and alone. I think it reinforced in him, a self-reliance for himself. From that point on, Jack was looking out for himself with much more caution.

And you see this transformation in his exchange with Lureen he is not so catering to her, he has no problem in countering her when she ask why husbands never dance with their wives, he had no idea, and he really didn't much care, but too a passive aggressive route by asking LaShawn to dance.  Jack was fighting back, (in his way).

[tpe]

Jack's tears in the truck after Ennis rejection of him in the divorce scene,  showed how deeply Jack could feel, it was right after that we see a harder, maybe a more bitter Jack.   Was it because it was Ennis who hurt him or  was it that self reliance he had to learn?

MG, do you mean the tears, or the fact that Jack waited until he was way from Ennis to vent out his feelings. 

I think the tears came because it was Ennis who hurt him.

I think he cried after leaving Ennis because he was used to doing this all his life -- perhaps because of having a father that didn't want him to show that much emotion.

[atalley]

Slightly  ...I've always wondered if Lureen asked "why is it that husbands never want to dance with their wives?" because she knew that he was gay.

[Tony]

I think that Jake gave Jack a sadness we don't really see in the ss. He is what we call a Sunflower child. He had been brought up in an abusive environment but he still had the ability to want to love others. He tries, with Ennis, to go after a life he haven't had but still he isn't afraid to ASK Ennis for it

   The rejection by Ennis, and the tears in the truck, are, to me, more and more, one of the important areas we are given, to untangle Jack Twist.  Since I don't know how to multiple quote, have started with Esmelily and will go to each of the other posts, with apologies for picking and choosing, before trying to give my own take on what happened:

-MG: "Jack's tears in the truck.....showed how deeply Jack could feel, it was right after that we see a harder, maybe a more bitter Jack."
-MPJ:  "...and every time his dreams fade away, it was like a crack in his self-trust wall..."
-AF:  "From that point on, Jack was looking out for himself with much more caution."
-TPE:  "I think the tears came because it was Ennis who hurt him."
-BT:  "I think Jack had in his heart....a lot of things nobody got to see or understand."
-MG:  "Jack was fighting back (in his own way)."
     IMO, all of these are so very rightful, but am going with the last one, from MG, more completely.  I don't think Jack went to Mexico for sex.  I think he went there for revenge.  I felt that the first time I saw the movie.
     He was crying in the truck because his assumption that the divorce meant he and Ennis had a future was rebuffed.  He wept all the way....to Mexico.  When you are heartbroken and weeping, you are not....horny.  Nor was there any smile or lust as he went down that alley.  He was, and he knew it, being unfaithful, and this was his revenge.
   Which leads me to another conclusion.  All the Brokies who assume Jack was promiscuous after the events on the mountain (AP's hints notwithstanding) are, IMO, wrong. The film developed a different Jack (and AP has somewhat conceded, she knew Ennis, she didn't fully know Jack).  And that Jack WAS faithful to Ennis until this tearful ride to Mexico. (Of course, I've also challenged the rodeo clown interpretation, too, saying it was trying for a friend, and not a pick-up, as that was just too much being read into a bar room conversation).
  So, for me, Jack went from the sacred (sex with love) to the profane (male prostitutes), because the sacred had been profaned, when Ennis failed to reassure him.  Of course, it couldn't have been worse timing, Jack pulling up just as Ennis was taking off with his daughters.
 Even so, anybody who thinks that trip to Mexico was horniness, doesn't factor in the tears.  It was revenge.  Later trips....well, he'd found a place to go.
   Please forgive my choosing the quotes that were convenient for this line of thinking.  The writers would not necessarily agree with my conclusions.
They were all very good posts and everyone did so very well in doing what we rarely do....try to look for more to Jack than the standard take.

[Tony]

  Dear Atalley - sorry, was posting just as you did.  Interesting question.  On the surface, seems to mean nothing.  But, between those two....just might mean a little more.  She did know there were an awful lot of "fishing trips".

[manhattangirl]

   So, for me, Jack went from the sacred (sex with love) to the profane (male prostitutes), because the sacred had been profaned, when Ennis failed to reassure him.  Of course, it couldn't have been worse timing, Jack pulling up just as Ennis was taking off with his daughters.
 Even so, anybody who thinks that trip to Mexico was horniness, doesn't factor in the tears.  It was revenge.  Later trips....well, he'd found a place to go.
   Please forgive my choosing the quotes that were convenient for this line of thinking.  The writers would not necessarily agree with my conclusions.
They were all very good posts and everyone did so very well in doing what we rarely do....try to look for more to Jack than the standard take.

And this is in a nutshell.  Ennis failed to see who Jack really was, dare I say it even AP, didn't fully understand Jack, and she created him.  But Jack was the recipient of all Ennis's fear, doubts, low self esteem issues, and Jack took it, where Alma just cut her losses, Jack never did.

But the effects on him was deep and profound.  After the fiasco of the misunderstood notification of Ennis sent to Jack about his divorce, and the subsequence rejection of him when he arrived hopeful, and happy that finally their life together would happen but didn't.  Jack was feeling debased, hurt, and rejected went to Mexico I think out some kind of self punishment, along with revenge.  Again he was feeling less than, and damn Ennis for not understanding. 

[tpe]

Slightly  ...I've always wondered if Lureen asked "why is it that husbands never want to dance with their wives?" because she knew that he was gay.

I initially thought that it was a playful hint to Jack that she wanted him to dance with her, but it seemed that Jack took it the wrong way.  I am sure that there is something deeper to this than just a jilted invitation to dance.  There must be a double entendre here in the use of the word "dance", don't you agree?

[manhattangirl]

I initially thought that it was a playful hint to Jack that she wanted him to dance with her, but it seemed that Jack took it the wrong way.  I am sure that there is something deeper to this than just a jilted invitation to dance.  There must be a double entendre here in the use of the word "dance", don't you agree?

Didn't Lureen seem a little frustrated with Jack, what else beside dancing he wasn't asking from her?  Asking LaShawn to dance was to shut her up and also get some distance from Randall stares, which I think distrubed him even more.   I really think Jack by this time was outed, not to the world but to himself.  IMO

[zadig]

Wow, what a thread. Y'all rock!
 
Concerning the idea that Jack's distant father might have sent Jack into playing for the other team: doesn't that fly in the face of the conventional wisdom that gays are created as such, not assembled out of the sum of their experiences? 

[Tony]

    Dear Zadig - hmmm.... yeah, that would be inconveniently inconsistent, wouldn't it?  There has seemed to be a drift to saying Jack was rejected by his father and therefore sought ratification from other males, especially Ennis.  But that didn't necessarily have to be sexual.  And am not sure anybody went all the way there on that one, although someone may have.
   Going to how-you-get-gay, or even WERE they gay, would be subjects on other threads in the forum, and so doing that here would likely be flagged as OT by the moderators.
   For whatever it's worth, on-topic, Jack got trashed a lot by males, and not for sexual reasons, just probably because he didn't fit in to the dopey stereotypes mandated by that time and place.  He was brash, lively, and a dreamer and that didn't sit well with the I'm-a-real-man-because-I-don't-think-feel-or-see crowd.  He wasn't dull, and that was a prerequisite for fitting in.
  By the way, welcome to the forum, and I hope you have a good time here.

[zadig]

Well thanks Tony!   
From the lead-in post in the thread I figured something a lil Freudian to be the case, but I stand corrected.  I guess my dissonant reading comes from my different view of Jack. I didn't see Jack as really in that "needs validation in general from the fellas" boat.  And that's because of 1) the awesome scene where he stands up to his father in law, sits him down and shuts him up. Pulling a move like that isn't an efficient way to the stated ends. 2) I was under the impression that since he found Ennis, all other needs had blurred into the background quite a bit.   
 
But, hey, I don't mind being wrong... so long as the error gets caught and corrected one way or another. That's part of learning.  And if being wrong gets the wrath of moderators for somehow being off topic, I sure will be keeping them busy.  I didn't sign up because I thought I had all, some or any of the answers.  The exact opposite in fact.

[Tony]

Well thanks Tony!   
From the lead-in post in the thread I figured something a lil Freudian to be the case, but I stand corrected. 

   Dear Zadig - My own experience here, so far, is that we don't "correct" each other, as no one's take on the movie can be supposed to be the only legitimate one.  Am sorry if my reply gave the wrong impression.  We just kind of state our opinions and throw them out there (and sometimes run like hell).
   As it turns out, a re-reading of the lead-in post supports what you had to say.  But, again, it's a marketplace of ideas here, and there are no known ayatollahs, only the occasional arched eyebrows.  Your points were well taken, am sure.