Topic: "Rodeo, the Pissant Combine Salesman"

[zadig]

Yeah Tony, but the thing is that the one thing I'm SURE of is that I'm gonna be learning more than teaching 'round here. I've only seen the movie once, for the first time on Bravo Friday nite.  I think most fans have seen it more than that and read the short story.
I haven't read that.  The only thing of hers I've read is The Shipping News.  I'm pretty sure that fans of longer standing have also had longer to digest the whole thing.  Thus I know there are better interpretations and insights than what I've got going on right now!  Oh, and you helped me with a little thing or two in one post,  THANKS!  One other thing: you mentioned that it is open to question whether Jack or Ennis was even gay?  See, you got me on the right track with that one.  The way most of us straights figure, bi and gay is a distinction without a difference.  That's one lil prejudice I don't mind having dispelled. Much gratitude, Tony!

[manhattangirl]

Yeah Tony, but the thing is that the one thing I'm SURE of is that I'm gonna be learning more than teaching 'round here. I've only seen the movie once, for the first time on Bravo Friday nite.  I think most fans have seen it more than that and read the short story.
I haven't read that.  The only thing of hers I've read is The Shipping News.  I'm pretty sure that fans of longer standing have also had longer to digest the whole thing.  Thus I know there are better interpretations and insights than what I've got going on right now!  Oh, and you helped me with a little thing or two in one post,  THANKS!  One other thing: you mentioned that it is open to question whether Jack or Ennis was even gay?  See, you got me on the right track with that one.  The way most of us straights figure, bi and gay is a distinction without a difference.  That's one lil prejudice I don't mind having dispelled. Much gratitude, Tony!

Welcome Zadig, 

I'm looking forward to your thoughts, questions, ideas, fresh eyes bring new light, another light.  Questions that might have not been asked.  Looking forward to reading yours posts.

[tpe]

Didn't Lureen seem a little frustrated with Jack, what else beside dancing he wasn't asking from her?  Asking LaShawn to dance was to shut her up and also get some distance from Randall stares, which I think distrubed him even more.   I really think Jack by this time was outed, not to the world but to himself.  IMO

Yes, I sort of read it as a veiled commentary on their marital relations.   But what you say about shutiing up LaShawn and getting away from Randall is most likely true.  Of course, he couldn't comment about it to Lureen, and I am sure that Lureen didn't really care to notice anything.

[tpe]

Wow, what a thread. Y'all rock!
 
Concerning the idea that Jack's distant father might have sent Jack into playing for the other team: doesn't that fly in the face of the conventional wisdom that gays are created as such, not assembled out of the sum of their experiences? 

Welcome, zadig.


Personally, I don't believe that Jack's father affected his sexual orientation.  But what I do believe is that jack's father made Jack more emotive and loving/caring.  In life, you frequently compensate for what you have been deprived...

[myprivatejack]

Welcome, zadig.


Personally, I don't believe that Jack's father affected his sexual orientation.  But what I do believe is that jack's father made Jack more emotive and loving/caring.  In life, you frequently compensate for what you have been deprived...

I agree one more time,Thomas...I don't think either that Jack's father affected his sexual orientation-at least,not in the way and measure Ennis father did-.But he got with his attitude towards his son that this one needed a male figure as example,what he hadn't got exactly; and,of course,also made him more anxious for affection and approbation,And for me this approbation specially,included sexual aspects,as he needed to be loved,to feel somebody cared for him.

[manhattangirl]

Yes, I sort of read it as a veiled commentary on their marital relations.   But what you say about shutiing up LaShawn and getting away from Randall is most likely true.  Of course, he couldn't comment about it to Lureen, and I am sure that Lureen didn't really care to notice anything.

I should have made myself more clear,  it was a way to shut up Lureen,  her remark on wives and dancing was a dig at Jack.  As if it was more than just dancing he hadn't ask for.  Remember Lureen is, well very sexual herself, I mean she gave it up the first night, which even shocked Jack.   I've stated this before Lureen changed over the years along with Jack, in her appearance, her going blonde, to wearing big  jewelery to the point of almost tacky,maybe to appear more feminie, as if to assure herself of her own allure as a woman. 

Did she know about Jack, maybe, that question is wide open for speculation.  But it was clear Lureen was not a content woman.     

[tpe]

I agree one more time,Thomas...I don't think either that Jack's father affected his sexual orientation-at least,not in the way and measure Ennis father did-.But he got with his attitude towards his son that this one needed a male figure as example,what he hadn't got exactly; and,of course,also made him more anxious for affection and approbation,And for me this approbation specially,included sexual aspects,as he needed to be loved,to feel somebody cared for him.

Yes, MPJ.  For me, if there was anything about the elder Twist that affected Jack throughout his life, it was the need to be loved -- and a need to belong in that love.  He was as caring as he much as he wanted to be cared for.

[tpe]

I should have made myself more clear,  it was a way to shut up Lureen,  her remark on wives and dancing was a dig at Jack.  As if it was more than just dancing he hadn't ask for.  Remember Lureen is, well very sexual herself, I mean she gave it up the first night, which even shocked Jack.   I've stated this before Lureen changed over the years along with Jack, in her appearance, her going blonde, to wearing big  jewelery to the point of almost tacky,maybe to appear more feminie, as if to assure herself of her own allure as a woman. 

Did she know about Jack, maybe, that question is wide open for speculation.  But it was clear Lureen was not a content woman.     

Yes, I understood your point the first time around, MG.   Sorry if it seemed that I didn't! 

Did she know about Jack?  It is most likely that she knew at the time of hisdeath -- very likely after, but also probably right before, IMO.

[aintfoolin]

Yes, I understood your point the first time around, MG.   Sorry if it seemed that I didn't! 

Did she know about Jack?  It is most likely that she knew at the time of hisdeath -- very likely after, but also probably right before, IMO.

 I think Lureen at least suspected there was another woman in Jack's life ,not a man. Not until Ennis called her after Jack's death do I feel she knew it was Ennis. Jack and Lureen had grown apart, big time. It's obvious  that the thrill has been gone awhile from this marriage, including sex, companionship, and respect ect...Jack was no longer seeking any of it from her.

The eye contact between Jack and Randall  was suggestive on both parts. A little too prolonged  not to be interested. I think Randall noted the obvious rift between Jack and his wife.IMO.

[tpe]

I think Lureen at least suspected there was another woman in Jack's life ,not a man. Not until Ennis called her after Jack's death do I feel she knew it was Ennis. Jack and Lureen had grown apart, big time. It's obvious  that the thrill has been gone awhile from this marriage, including sex, companionship, and respect ect...Jack was no longer seeking any of it from her.

The eye contact between Jack and Randall  was suggestive on both parts. A little too prolonged  not to be interested. I think Randall noted the obvious rift between Jack and his wife.IMO.

Well, I do think the circumstances of Jack's death may have alerted Lureen to the fact that Jack was toying with other men.  But I do think Lureen didn't realize who Ennis was until the call...

And yes, I think Randall sized up the situation between Lureena dnd Jack that early on...

[myprivatejack]

Well, I do think the circumstances of Jack's death may have alerted Lureen to the fact that Jack was toying with other men.  But I do think Lureen didn't realize who Ennis was until the call...

And yes, I think Randall sized up the situation between Lureena dnd Jack that early on...

I think Lureen knew,evidently,that Jack was another relationship out of their marriage; as you say,AF,there was nothing that could join them since some years before his death.But I'm not so sure if she didn't suspect that this other relationship was with another man; too many "fishing trips" always with the same man,too much happiness every time he went to these trips with him,too wide precipice between them at the same time he felt more attached to that man...There were too many coincidences,always with Ennis with protagonist,as not to suspect something.What I could affirm is that she realised the truth about the two men when speaking with Ennis on the phone;but more than a discovery,it was a confirmation,IMO.

[manhattangirl]

We speak of Ennis compartentalizing his life or at least his feelings, when Jack actually did it.  He lived three lives, Texas, Ennis, and LF, and none of them met at any point until his death.  Ennis was the focal point.   Jack parents knew of Ennis, and the relationship they had, Lureen knew that this man her husband would meet once or twice a year for twenty years was significant person in his life.   But the interesting part of this trio is that Jack never brought Lureen to meet his folks, they never saw their grandson and would probably never will.  Lureen left it up to Ennis relay the message of Jack wishes of where his ashes to be placed.

Ennis was the only real part of Jack's life, and in a way Jack parents and Lureen knew it. 

[tpe]

I think Lureen knew,evidently,that Jack was another relationship out of their marriage; as you say,AF,there was nothing that could join them since some years before his death.But I'm not so sure if she didn't suspect that this other relationship was with another man; too many "fishing trips" always with the same man,too much happiness every time he went to these trips with him,too wide precipice between them at the same time he felt more attached to that man...There were too many coincidences,always with Ennis with protagonist,as not to suspect something.What I could affirm is that she realised the truth about the two men when speaking with Ennis on the phone;but more than a discovery,it was a confirmation,IMO.

To a certain extent, I think Lureen didnt care at a later point whether Jack was having an affair.  But I do think that she didn't suspect that Jack was having something going with other men.  Personally, I don't think that Lureen would have cared per se -- except for the fact that if such a thing about Jack became public, it would be more damaging to her and the family, I would suppose.  To this extent, I think she cared. 

[tpe]

We speak of Ennis compartentalizing his life or at least his feelings, when Jack actually did it.  He lived three lives, Texas, Ennis, and LF, and none of them met at any point until his death.  Ennis was the focal point.   Jack parents knew of Ennis, and the relationship they had, Lureen knew that this man her husband would meet once or twice a year for twenty years was significant person in his life.   But the interesting part of this trio is that Jack never brought Lureen to meet his folks, they never saw their grandson and would probably never will.  Lureen left it up to Ennis relay the message of Jack wishes of where his ashes to be placed.

Ennis was the only real part of Jack's life, and in a way Jack parents and Lureen knew it. 

Well, during Jack's lifetime, Ennis never got to meet or even talk to Lureen and Jack's parents.  So Jack really made sure that his worlds were separate.  What is curious though is that Jack always talked to his parents about Ennis and even talked about bringing him back to live on the ranch.  Of course, he never really talked about Ennis to Lureen except as the fishing buddy he visited back in WY.  But I had a feeling that Jack shared more about Ennis to his mom and dad, instead of with Lureen and Bobby.

[myprivatejack]

Well, during Jack's lifetime, Ennis never got to meet or even talk to Lureen and Jack's parents.  So Jack really made sure that his worlds were separate.  What is curious though is that Jack always talked to his parents about Ennis and even talked about bringing him back to live on the ranch.  Of course, he never really talked about Ennis to Lureen except as the fishing buddy he visited back in WY.  But I had a feeling that Jack shared more about Ennis to his mom and dad, instead of with Lureen and Bobby.

Yes,me too.Perhaps because they're in all senses further to Ennis and their relationship than Lureen was;and,as you say,this was an easiness for Jack,because all the three worlds were separate in this way.They know,but they didn't share their relationship,their day-after-day life when they were together.It was a way of relieving himself speaking with his parents,but without "mixing" them too much in the practise.

[Tony]

all the three worlds were separate in this way.They know,but they didn't share their relationship,their day-after-day life when they were together.

   Jack really did have 3 separate worlds:  Ennis; Lureen & his son; and his parents.  And maybe a 4th world & 5th world: Mexico, and Randall.  All kept separately.  That was quite a juggling act but he seemed to do it in a happy-go-lucky way rather than being basically deceptive.
   As to his parents knowing ---it really looks like the balance of power at Lightning Flat shifted, as Twist Sr. grew older and unable to keep up with the work.  In that environment, Jack had the upper hand and may have felt more comfortable babbling about his hopes and dreams, without caring much what his father made of them.  IMO, an unspoken agreement not to speak to the implications of Jack having another guy there existed, so as to skirt the dilemma:  the parents needed help.  Twist Sr. couldn't afford to be overtly critical.  And it was probably not only his Mom, but also his Dad, who saw that, whatever dreams Jack had, none of them included abandoning his parents in their old age.  Grow old, and see what is more important- whether your son has a lover, or whether your only son loves you enough to see you through to the end, as aging inexorably takes its toll.

[manhattangirl]

   Jack really did have 3 separate worlds:  Ennis; Lureen & his son; and his parents.  And maybe a 4th world & 5th world: Mexico, and Randall.  All kept separately.  That was quite a juggling act but he seemed to do it in a happy-go-lucky way rather than being basically deceptive.
   As to his parents knowing ---it really looks like the balance of power at Lightning Flat shifted, as Twist Sr. grew older and unable to keep up with the work.  In that environment, Jack had the upper hand and may have felt more comfortable babbling about his hopes and dreams, without caring much what his father made of them.  IMO, an unspoken agreement not to speak to the implications of Jack having another guy there existed, so as to skirt the dilemma:  the parents needed help.  Twist Sr. couldn't afford to be overtly critical.  And it was probably not only his Mom, but also his Dad, who saw that, whatever dreams Jack had, none of them included abandoning his parents in their old age.  Grow old, and see what is more important- whether your son has a lover, or whether your only son loves you enough to see you through to the end, as aging inexorably takes its toll.

This beautiful Tony, and I believe so true.  I couldn't help but think how the old man almost took pleasure in telling Ennis of Randall's existence.  He knew of Ennis and what he meant to Jack.  So like most of Jack dreams he made nothing of them, so if Ennis thought he was special, he wasn't.   I can't help think the old man was competion with Jack, but also let be known he owned him, Jack was his, always will be.  Jack was like him, not that damn special.

[babytammy7]

Tony, MG, beautiful posts. 

[tpe]

Yes,me too.Perhaps because they're in all senses further to Ennis and their relationship than Lureen was;and,as you say,this was an easiness for Jack,because all the three worlds were separate in this way.They know,but they didn't share their relationship,their day-after-day life when they were together.It was a way of relieving himself speaking with his parents,but without "mixing" them too much in the practise.

I think this act of compartmentalizing various aspects of our lives is very human.  I think this is why many of use connect with Jack in this regard...

[tpe]

   Jack really did have 3 separate worlds:  Ennis; Lureen & his son; and his parents.  And maybe a 4th world & 5th world: Mexico, and Randall.  All kept separately.  That was quite a juggling act but he seemed to do it in a happy-go-lucky way rather than being basically deceptive.
   As to his parents knowing ---it really looks like the balance of power at Lightning Flat shifted, as Twist Sr. grew older and unable to keep up with the work.  In that environment, Jack had the upper hand and may have felt more comfortable babbling about his hopes and dreams, without caring much what his father made of them.  IMO, an unspoken agreement not to speak to the implications of Jack having another guy there existed, so as to skirt the dilemma:  the parents needed help.  Twist Sr. couldn't afford to be overtly critical.  And it was probably not only his Mom, but also his Dad, who saw that, whatever dreams Jack had, none of them included abandoning his parents in their old age.  Grow old, and see what is more important- whether your son has a lover, or whether your only son loves you enough to see you through to the end, as aging inexorably takes its toll.

I also feel the same way about Jack's parents when they got to be a bit older.  Although I doubt that there was any form of rapprochement between father and son in the later years.  There was probably very little to get back to, to begin with, I think.

[Matt Nasty]

this is a great topic, i think most of what i can think of has been ocvered in this thread already, but ill probably jump in soon when something hits me , one thing thats stood out to me here is the topic of jack searching for a father figure to guide him into manhood... maybe what jack more seeks is the acknowlegement that he is a man. both his father and LD as previosuly stated do not treat him this way... maybe Jack felt it important to prove his manhood, as he was gay. and felt people not acknowleging him as a man (even though they didnt know he was gay) was some kind of mocking him due to his sexuality... ive written this clumsily and alround badly i hope it is in someway understandable. ill try and clear it up later

[atalley]

Great posts everone!   It seems that Jack, as well as Ennis, was a complex individual.  I agree that Mexico was more revenge than anything else.  Also, Randall was a VERY poor substitute for Ennis.  I wonder how deep his feelings for him really were.  Not very, IMO.

[Tony]

one thing thats stood out to me here is the topic of jack searching for a father figure to guide him into manhood... maybe what jack more seeks is the acknowlegement that he is a man....

  Yeah, I can see the distinction you are making, Matt. He wasn't looking for someone to help him become a man, he wanted it understood he already was a man and needed to be treated that way.  Trouble was, in his environment, someone was thought to be manly if they were grumpy jerks (Aguirre), sneering and cold-blooded (the rodeo clown) or domineering and ignorant (his father-in-law).   None of them were half the man that Jack was, and yet, because he dared to be happy-go-lucky, and had no spite....he just didn't fit their very strange definitions of manhood.  Great distinction, Matt.  Well-done!

[Tony]

  It seems that Jack, as well as Ennis, was a complex individual.  I agree that Mexico was more revenge than anything else.  Also, Randall was a VERY poor substitute for Ennis.  I wonder how deep his feelings for him really were.  Not very, IMO.

   I think, Atalley, that Manhattangirl hit pay dirt in challenging us to see more to Jack. He really was more complex than many of us, including me, had thought.  Am kind of wondering, though....I agree the trip to Mexico was either revenge or catharsis, not lust.  I wonder if Randall served the same function.
I remember that fade-out, of Jack's angry face, as Ennis left from their last meet-up.  And how Ennis had warned him not to be unfaithful, yet wouldn't commit to living together.  Maybe Randall was also a kind of revenge.  By the way, is it just me, or did Jack seem to have very poor taste in other guys, except for Ennis?  Darn- even the bartender polishing glasses in the bar and openly friendly to Jack, was more attractive than the rodeo clown, the Mexican hooker, or Randall.  Come to think of it, that bartender MIGHT have been hitting on Jack. I don't have much gaydar but it sure looked possible to me.  What WAS Jack thinking, passing that one up?

[manhattangirl]

Great posts everone!   It seems that Jack, as well as Ennis, was a complex individual.  I agree that Mexico was more revenge than anything else.  Also, Randall was a VERY poor substitute for Ennis.  I wonder how deep his feelings for him really were.  Not very, IMO.

I wonder too, but gees we sure give Randall a hard way to go.  He was attracted to Jack, he couldn't keep his eyes off him.  And he ask him to go "fishing".  This takes poor Jack off guard, as if it never occurred to him that someone could want him.  I think Randall's attraction to Jack was real, and I think him asking to spend time with Jack was sincere. 

I can't blame Jack for going to him.  Here was someone who wanted to be with him.  We know it didn't work between them, but Jack did try.   

This must added to Jack mood that day of the final confrontation, he was stuck with what he had. But asking himself, what did he really have. 

[Matt Nasty]

I wonder too, but gees we sure give Randall a hard way to go.  He was attracted to Jack, he couldn't keep his eyes off him.  And he ask him to go "fishing".  This takes poor Jack off guard, as if it never occurred to him that someone could want him.  I think Randall's attraction to Jack was real, and I think him asking to spend time with Jack was sincere. 

I can't blame Jack for going to him.  Here was someone who wanted to be with him.  We know it didn't work between them, but Jack did try.   

This must added to Jack mood that day of the final confrontation, he was stuck with what he had. But asking himself, what did he really have. 

wow thats a really amazing, post especially the bit i bolded

[tpe]

  Yeah, I can see the distinction you are making, Matt. He wasn't looking for someone to help him become a man, he wanted it understood he already was a man and needed to be treated that way.  Trouble was, in his environment, someone was thought to be manly if they were grumpy jerks (Aguirre), sneering and cold-blooded (the rodeo clown) or domineering and ignorant (his father-in-law).   None of them were half the man that Jack was, and yet, because he dared to be happy-go-lucky, and had no spite....he just didn't fit their very strange definitions of manhood.  Great distinction, Matt.  Well-done!

Well, you should know that said it quite beautifully, Tony. 

[tpe]

Great posts everone!   It seems that Jack, as well as Ennis, was a complex individual.  I agree that Mexico was more revenge than anything else.  Also, Randall was a VERY poor substitute for Ennis.  I wonder how deep his feelings for him really were.  Not very, IMO.

I don't know whether Mexico was more of revenge -- at least for me, it had more to do with frustration.  I think I've been there.  Do you understand what I am getting at?

[tpe]

I wonder too, but gees we sure give Randall a hard way to go.  He was attracted to Jack, he couldn't keep his eyes off him.  And he ask him to go "fishing".  This takes poor Jack off guard, as if it never occurred to him that someone could want him.  I think Randall's attraction to Jack was real, and I think him asking to spend time with Jack was sincere. 

I can't blame Jack for going to him.  Here was someone who wanted to be with him.  We know it didn't work between them, but Jack did try.   

This must added to Jack mood that day of the final confrontation, he was stuck with what he had. But asking himself, what did he really have. 

I think the attraction was real also.  In some ways, Randall and Jack were similar.  They were not particularly practical.  They had domineering wives, and they pretty much knew what they wanted.  And most of all, they were not understood.

[manhattangirl]

I think the attraction was real also.  In some ways, Randall and Jack were similar.  They were not particularly practical.  They had domineering wives, and they pretty much knew what they wanted.  And most of all, they were not understood.

Yes, they were not understood.  Both men seem to be looked at as the alternative, a way out by their wives.   Some women do get married as a way of getting out some present situation they find themselves to be in.

Lureen might have wanted to get out from under the thumb of LD.  LaShawn probably thought Randall was a step up, but wound up in a poky place like Childress.  The men they were married too weren't as important as being married into a perceived better situation.  Neither woman had an idea of the men they married to.

So here they were sparring with each other, Lureen playing Queen Bee making sure LaShawn knew her place. And while all this was going on. Randall and Jack were doing their own sparring, Jack increasingly uncomfortable with Randall stares, not being put off by it, but turned on by it.  Poor Jack, he really needed Ennis at that moment.  JMO.

There was a lot going at that table that night.