Topic: Homosexuality in the 1960s

[hidesert]

After a polite argument with a friend about the life decisions made by Ennis and Jack, I thought how little we discuss the time period when the short story takes place.  The short story begins in 1960s Wyoming which is a major factor in understanding the characters of Ennis and Jack. Annie Proulx is a historian by training and history and geography are important factors in her writing.

To appreciate the story we have to step back in history and view events like we were living in the 1960s when homosxuality was looked upon very very differently in the United States. There weren't any gay meccas like San Francisco, Los Angeles or New York in the 1960s.  Most homosexuals lived in the closet and tried to pass for straight. Homosexuality was still labeled as a mental illness and homosexual acts were a crime.

Cities have been havens for religious, ethnic, racial and sexual minorities for centuries, but they were not always supportive environments for minorities.  A common place for gay men and women to meet then as now was a gay bar, but the few gay bars in existence were raided and harassed by local police.  And in the 50s and 60s some police departments routinely alerted local TV stations who taped the raids so patrons were not only arrested, but their arrest ended up on the evening news. Police in San Francisco and New York were no better - they regularly raided gay bars at the behest of politicians or religious leaders. Cruising in parks was also risky as those caught were not only arrested but their names could end up in the local newspaper.   

Let's not forget that the famous Stonewall Bar (scene of the 1967 Stonewall Riots) in New York was owned by the Mafia.  The Mob wasn't being nice to gays - they made money and used the bar to gather information on patrons for blackmail and extortion purposes.

Homophobia in rural areas could be even more intense.  Every young man and young woman was expected to get married and have children.  Rural pressure to conform pushed many gay men and lesbians into unhappy marriages or even suicide. 

It's easy to label Jack and Ennis as gay ranch hands, but Jack and Ennis didn't even identify themselves as homosexual.  They were homophobic but that is understandable growing up at that time in rural America. Please be kind and don't judge them based on gay life in 2005 - their sexual attitudes were formed in a different decade and they lived in a different time.



 

[monicita]

Very perceptive, Hidesert!

I also had a discussion with my best friend about "why didn't they just move to San Francisco". You are right: For many people it is hard to imagine what growing up in a rural area STILL means for gay people. In 1963, I would say, there was no earthly hope for these two people of moving anywhere "freer" and be happy there. They are depicted as more or less part of the landscape in the movie. What would they be doing with themselves (and each other) in a big city? Unimaginable, isn't it?

monicita

[Leo]

Yes, hidesert, they were very dark times. If you didn't fit the norm you people instantly wondered about you. Remember Ennis's lines about people looking at you "like they know".  I remember overhearing my parents discussing me numerous times, wondering if I was "queer".  I would hear them using terms like Shock Aversion Therapy, Brain Surgery and Psychologist. Some parents thought they could "fix" their kids. I was for a time even sent to a therapist to see if something could be done.

We didn't have a word for us back then, Gay meant bright, joyous etc. Folks called us queers or sodomites for the most part, till words like homo, fag or faggot became common and were added to the mix and as you mentioned homosexuality was considered an illness. We had no role models and really didn't know where or how to fit in.  Most Gay men had to try to pass thenselves off as straight (get married, have kids etc) in order to have any sense of safety, then in secret trying to find someone with whom they could share that need of something that they didn't hardly never get.

The story of Jack and Ennis takes place in a time of hopelessness and fear where you couldn't fix it, so you had to stand it . . . at least when out in the open where others could see.

[hidesert]

I also had a discussion with my best friend about "why didn't they just move to San Francisco". You are right: For many people it is hard to imagine what growing up in a rural area STILL means for gay people. In 1963, I would say, there was no earthly hope for these two people of moving anywhere "freer" and be happy there. They are depicted as more or less part of the landscape in the movie. What would they be doing with themselves (and each other) in a big city? Unimaginable, isn't it?

Thanks Monicita, I'm glad to know that someone else is having the same conversations.  One of the opinions going through BBM boards and blogs is that Ennis is alone responsible for his dead end relationship with Jack. True Ennis carried a lot of childhood baggage with him, but much of his paranoia was well founded.     

Yes, Jack and Ennis in the "Big City" is unimaginable. Jack might have adjusted very slowly over time, but Ennis would most likely have become very depressed and even more withdrawn.  I can't see either of them easily overcoming their own homophobia and melting into a "gay ghetto" in a big city.  They were straight talking/straight acting men in a very macho occupation.     

By 1983 attitudes toward homosexuality were changing but both Ennis and Jack were older and relocating meant they'd have to adjust to new a environment and the reality is that change becomes more difficult as we age.  Ennis whole world was Wyoming. 

I can think of only two occupations that they might have gotten into together.  One is long haul trucking which would entail some physical labor that would appeal to Ennis and Jack could have handled the business side.  The other would have been working for a movie studio caring for horses and other animals and maybe even doing stunt work.
       

For many people it is hard to imagine what growing up in a rural area STILL means for gay people.

  Annie Proulx underscores a message for us - the world has changed but Wyoming hasn't changed much since 1963. 

Yes, hidesert, they were very dark times. If you didn't fit the norm you people instantly wondered about you. Remember Ennis's lines about people looking at you "like they know".  I remember overhearing my parents discussing me numerous times, wondering if I was "queer".  I would hear them using terms like Shock Aversion Therapy, Brain Surgery and Psychologist. Some parents thought they could "fix" their kids. I was for a time even sent to a therapist to see if something could be done.

We didn't have a word for us back then, Gay meant bright, joyous etc. Folks called us queers or sodomites for the most part, till words like homo, fag or faggot became common and were added to the mix and as you mentioned homosexuality was considered an illness. We had no role models and really didn't know where or how to fit in.  Most Gay men had to try to pass thenselves off as straight (get married, have kids etc) in order to have any sense of safety, then in secret trying to find someone with whom they could share that need of something that they didn't hardly never get.

The story of Jack and Ennis takes place in a time of hopelessness and fear where you couldn't fix it, so you had to stand it . . . at least when out in the open where others could see.

Leo, thank you for sharing your experience. 

Most Gay men had to try to pass thenselves off as straight (get married, have kids etc) in order to have any sense of safety, then in secret trying to find someone with whom they could share that need of something that they didn't hardly never get.

That is one of the items that started the argument with my friend. She couldn't understand why Ennis and Jack didn't just move in together instead of creating marriages that were a lie. 

For Jack or Ennis to avoid being killed, branded a criminal or diagnosed as mentally ill, they had to live a lie.  Family and friends are part of a person’s identity in rural areas and getting married and having children was required to keep their "identity cards".     

The religious right has focused on how Ennis's and Jack's families were hurt by their relationship.  But it's a cheap shot by the fundies - families are hurt every time a couple is forced for any reason into marriage.         

[Toadily]

Yeah it's hard for us to imagine ina way anymore.  I mean even in the 80's when I was in my 20's
people were afraid having same sex room mates after college meant people might wonder
if you are gay, and it had a stigma. 

[Cowboy Cody]

Born in the mid 60's, graduated in mid 80's, I grew up in small town America, population 29,000. My hometown today is much like it was in the 80's and I suspect even before then as well. Although gay men and women live in my town, there is no gathering point, no common reference, because most have to live as 'straight' as possible to succeed here. It isn't unlike the problems and attitudes of Jack and Ennis. Any time a person can't truly be themselves they feel stiffled, ask, I know first hand. Therefore we find outlets where we can, when we can. I'm torn with this love for my home and for the love of my Bubba (we are moving in together, the sheep be damned). I don't know if I want to live in my hometown or not, this town is bible belt America. They don't much like outsiders or anyone they consider to be different. It really is like living in the 1950's around here sometimes.

Jack and Ennis couldn't exist peacefully in a large scale environment. They have no schemata for that life. It would seem normal or right to them, not to be exactly where they are. Even Jack, who moves away, still ends up in a small town, much like the places he knew in Wyoming. Being gay in Middle America is not easy, it's damn difficult. The movie has made a difference for me in that I'm willing to take a chance now, whereas before I was not. I was fearful of having colleagues, etc. see me as a gay man first, teacher second. Today, I'm headed in the other direction. Conversations like these have helped immensely. Thank you.
Cody

[bram]

It's not just the 1960s when it was hard. It's changed for the better, but by a lot less than most people would think. Two years ago a girl tried to start a GSA at the high school that I used to go to. The school didn't want to let her, but her parents threatened to sue, so they had to. Everyone was walking around with anti GSA logos on their shirts and cars. The members of the GSA were getting beat up in the school after their meetings, and the only thing the school did as punishment was throw them in detention for one day.

One of the reasons that I left my last job, was because a girl at work told everyone else that I was gay. The other cashiers wouldn't talk to me and they'd all laugh at me behind my back. It didn't help that I'm a little weird and have to wear long sleeves even in the summer to cover up scars from a suicide attempt. I'm just one giant joke to coworkers.

Sorry, I got all personal and stuff there. That was probably too much information.

[hidesert]

Born in the mid 60's, graduated in mid 80's, I grew up in small town America, population 29,000. My hometown today is much like it was in the 80's and I suspect even before then as well. Although gay men and women live in my town, there is no gathering point, no common reference, because most have to live as 'straight' as possible to succeed here. It isn't unlike the problems and attitudes of Jack and Ennis. Any time a person can't truly be themselves they feel stiffled, ask, I know first hand. Therefore we find outlets where we can, when we can. I'm torn with this love for my home and for the love of my Bubba (we are moving in together, the sheep be damned). I don't know if I want to live in my hometown or not, this town is bible belt America. They don't much like outsiders or anyone they consider to be different. It really is like living in the 1950's around here sometimes.

Jack and Ennis couldn't exist peacefully in a large scale environment. They have no schemata for that life. It would seem normal or right to them, not to be exactly where they are. Even Jack, who moves away, still ends up in a small town, much like the places he knew in Wyoming. Being gay in Middle America is not easy, it's damn difficult. The movie has made a difference for me in that I'm willing to take a chance now, whereas before I was not. I was fearful of having colleagues, etc. see me as a gay man first, teacher second. Today, I'm headed in the other direction. Conversations like these have helped immensely. Thank you.
Cody

Personally I grew up in the suburbs though it felt like the country.  People in the 'burbs move a lot so you don't get a small town mentality.  But I did live for a few years in small towns in Oregon and Montana and I understand exactly what you mean.   People with micro views and not macro views.   "Wisteria Lane" on a larger scale.

Any way you and Bubba can move to another area and you could commute to your school or even move to a more "gay friendly" part of Ohio?  Your profession is "portable" - I don't know about Bubba's.  High school kids can be cruel with comments and ones with "small town" attitudes can be worse.     

Good luck!  Let us know.

[hidesert]

Sorry, I got all personal and stuff there. That was probably too much information.

The nice thing about a message board is that we're all anonymous - we are just one of millions of people.   

Hey I wear long sleeve shirts year around and it's not to cover up anything, I just prefer them.  And I work with guys and gals who wear long sleeves everyday because they have tattoos and they don't want them to show at work.           

Sounds like your last job was a bummer.  How is the current one doing?

[Cowboy Cody]

Born in the mid 60's, graduated in mid 80's, I grew up in small town America, population 29,000. My hometown today is much like it was in the 80's and I suspect even before then as well. Although gay men and women live in my town, there is no gathering point, no common reference, because most have to live as 'straight' as possible to succeed here. It isn't unlike the problems and attitudes of Jack and Ennis. Any time a person can't truly be themselves they feel stiffled, ask, I know first hand. Therefore we find outlets where we can, when we can. I'm torn with this love for my home and for the love of my Bubba (we are moving in together, the sheep be damned). I don't know if I want to live in my hometown or not, this town is bible belt America. They don't much like outsiders or anyone they consider to be different. It really is like living in the 1950's around here sometimes.

Jack and Ennis couldn't exist peacefully in a large scale environment. They have no schemata for that life. It would seem normal or right to them, not to be exactly where they are. Even Jack, who moves away, still ends up in a small town, much like the places he knew in Wyoming. Being gay in Middle America is not easy, it's damn difficult. The movie has made a difference for me in that I'm willing to take a chance now, whereas before I was not. I was fearful of having colleagues, etc. see me as a gay man first, teacher second. Today, I'm headed in the other direction. Conversations like these have helped immensely. Thank you.
Cody

Personally I grew up in the suburbs though it felt like the country.  People in the 'burbs move a lot so you don't get a small town mentality.  But I did live for a few years in small towns in Oregon and Montana and I understand exactly what you mean.   People with micro views and not macro views.   "Wisteria Lane" on a larger scale.

Any way you and Bubba can move to another area and you could commute to your school or even move to a more "gay friendly" part of Ohio?  Your profession is "portable" - I don't know about Bubba's.  High school kids can be cruel with comments and ones with "small town" attitudes can be worse.     

Good luck!  Let us know.

We will probably look for somewhere in the city but toward the outskirts. I like my space, not big on having neighbors in my face. If we go to out, we get stuck with well water, ain't doin' that. But I most certainly will let y'all know where we end up and even post some pics.

[hidesert]

We will probably look for somewhere in the city but toward the outskirts. I like my space, not big on having neighbors in my face. If we go to out, we get stuck with well water, ain't doin' that. But I most certainly will let y'all know where we end up and even post some pics.

I know what you mean - I live in a metro area on a half acre and I'm already feeling crowded.  Neighbors are just too close - I like them better at a distance.   Please let us know how it works out !!!
   

 

[JerBear418720]

OK, grandpa checking in!  I was born in 1948 and went to high school 1962-6 in a small town 40 miles NW of Chicago.  It was one of those places that sprung up out of the cornfields after WW2 - small pre-fab homes sold to veterans.  It was a white, working-class, Catholic town - if you didn't fit, you were a walking punching bag (physically and verbally).  Since I was gay (didn't know), introverted, Jewish and the "class brain", my life was Hell on Earth.  Gay?  OMG!  It was TOTALLY not discussed or even recognized on any level whatsoever.  Long about the time I was 15, I decided I wanted out.  I went to college (a radical and sneered-at step in that gawd-awful place), and I never went back to Cretinville again except to visit my parents.  Those years have kept me in therapy most of my adult life, but I've developed a habit of NEVER looking backward.

I SO understand the timeframe of BBM.  We'd be doing Jack and Ennis a big favor if we took up a collection & bought them a time machine.  I have a big house, and I'd be glad to put them up for a few YEARS while they settled into a life here.  I know the manager of a C&W gay bar in Chicago, and I'd get Ennis a job as a bouncer.  Jack could be a two-step instructor!

JB 

[ethan]

I know the manager of a C&W gay bar in Chicago, and I'd get Ennis a job as a bouncer.  Jack could be a two-step instructor!

LOL. I am sure Ennis and Jack would love the jobs.

I wasn't born until 70s and it is very interesting to read these posts. It is wonderful to see what happened then and now. Slowly, it is changing.

[Tom]

Born in the mid 60's, graduated in mid 80's, I grew up in small town America, population 29,000. My hometown today is much like it was in the 80's and I suspect even before then as well. Although gay men and women live in my town, there is no gathering point, no common reference, because most have to live as 'straight' as possible to succeed here. It isn't unlike the problems and attitudes of Jack and Ennis. Any time a person can't truly be themselves they feel stiffled, ask, I know first hand. Therefore we find outlets where we can, when we can. I'm torn with this love for my home and for the love of my Bubba (we are moving in together, the sheep be damned). I don't know if I want to live in my hometown or not, this town is bible belt America. They don't much like outsiders or anyone they consider to be different. It really is like living in the 1950's around here sometimes.

Jack and Ennis couldn't exist peacefully in a large scale environment. They have no schemata for that life. It would seem normal or right to them, not to be exactly where they are. Even Jack, who moves away, still ends up in a small town, much like the places he knew in Wyoming. Being gay in Middle America is not easy, it's damn difficult. The movie has made a difference for me in that I'm willing to take a chance now, whereas before I was not. I was fearful of having colleagues, etc. see me as a gay man first, teacher second. Today, I'm headed in the other direction. Conversations like these have helped immensely. Thank you.
Cody

I also was born in a time when to be gay was not talked about or discussed (1957) However I lived in a major city .the capital of Scotland for those of you who don't know me. But I might have well have lived in the sticks. I knew I was gay at about 8 or 9, but didn't know there was a name for how I felt. All the boys going whoot whoo for the girls and me just not getting it.

I had to hide, as I lived in the poorest part of the city, where all the working class folk lived ( considered the city scum ) But like You said Cowboy, where I lived you were expected to get married and have children. I heard people getting called poofters and fairies and thought that's not me they are talking about.

When I was 20 and at college I got a part time job in an Edinburgh hotel. It had what was called at the time a once a month "Scottish Minorities" night. God my eyes were opened the first night I worked . All of these people, some outrageous but most standing around socialising...it was wonderful.This was at a time 1977 when there wasn't one single gay pub in the city. It was the only "gathering point, the only common reference" for these people.

But even that joy wasn't enough to stop me closeting myself away for years. I would never be accepted like that where I lived.

Now Edinburgh has an amazing gay scene, most straight pubs are gay friendly and my younger relations have many friends who are gay, bi and straight and it doesn't bother a one of them.

When I watched Brokeback Mountain, I immediately got the 1960's angle cos I had been there. I understood that it would have been too high a mountain for Ennis to climb. That is what saddened me most, that because of the mindset at that time two people who loved each other could not express it. So sad, so powerful a film and maybe just maybe it will be a defining moment in our Gay history. Especially in your neck of the woods Cowboy, where even we hear tales of the bigotry of the religious fundamentalists. 

This film has awakened me, saddened me and angered me and I decided that 50 be damned this "boy" is ready .

I too would like to be able to transport Ennis and Jack away to a happy lovlier gayer time for them. I still believe that their own inbuilt and nurtured homophobia would not allow them to be happy there however. The guilt would eat them up.

I like this thread, it has awakened in me the reasons for fighting on

Love to all

Tom

[stephan]

Tom, thanks for that last post. There's a hearty sincerity, and it sounds like we've a similar past (I was born 1958). Somehow, though, lots of us have been brought together by BBM (btw, thanks again, Etthan). I suppose we won't be transmitting the same atmosphere that we suffocated in years ago, right ?

[Tom]

Tom, thanks for that last post. There's a hearty sincerity, and it sounds like we've a similar past (I was born 1958). Somehow, though, lots of us have been brought together by BBM (btw, thanks again, Etthan). I suppose we won't be transmitting the same atmosphere that we suffocated in years ago, right ?

Well here's one guy who isn't prepared to Suffocate or to suffer any unfairness ever, not just sexual but in everything. From my first screening of this film I have changed daily to the point I, who was totally closeted my whole life, talk openly about my love for this movie, about this forum, about supposed sexuality of BAFTA winning stars etc etc etc. I challenged these people around me to ask " why are you going on about this, are you gay or something" and then I was ready for the first time to say "You know what I am , so what?"

But do you know something, what people have said is "Tom, you seem a lot happier these day, Tom you look good etc". They probably always suspected anyway but it feels good to not bother if they know or not.

It's this site that has helped me the most. The people on it have been supportive, argumentative, funny, flirty and downright GOOD among other things. There is a sense of belonging to a group where sexuality, age, etc are not an issue. If only this could have been the life for Ennis and Jack.

You never know Ennis might go to the movies in town and see BBM and realise he has nothing to fear.   lol

My thanks also to Ethan  What a guy you are.

Tom