Topic: Ennis life after Jack's death and his feelings towards forgiveness

[smartestsonia]

I think that Jack’s death reformed Ennis…Apart from the plight of suffering and trauma he went through he also had an insight that Jack completed him…He was his soulmate and always will be and I think that Ennis will live by those precious memories and love Jack for the rest of his life….Ennis must have hated himself as to what he put Jack through…He must be thinking about forgiveness many times and moreover even though Ennis knew that Jack understood his childhood fears and fears of the society, I hope Ennis forgave himself…Although the positive me believes that Ennis did live the rest of his life with Jack always with him in his heart as his strength and support...

Thomas has inspired and encouraged me to start this topic…Thanks for that Thomas...
This topic is to put light on Ennis life after Jack passed away and how he will forgive himself and attain release from all the pain...There is no doubt that Ennis will always be one with Jack in spirit and his heart will always belong Jack and he will live his life with that pure, unselfish and immortal love. I know that this will be too difficult for Ennis but he will live to keep Jack’s love alive…

Please share your valuable thoughts and opinions on this..Thanks a ton dear Brokies...

[vedrana]

I think that Jack’s death reformed Ennis…Apart from the plight of suffering and trauma he went through he also had an insight that Jack completed him…He was his soulmate and always will be and I think that Ennis will live by those precious memories and love Jack for the rest of his life….Ennis must have hated himself as to what he put Jack through…He must be thinking about forgiveness many times and moreover even though Ennis knew that Jack understood his childhood fears and fears of the society, I hope Ennis forgave himself…Although the positive me believes that Ennis did live the rest of his life with Jack always with him in his heart as his strength and support...

Thomas has inspired and encouraged me to start this topic…Thanks for that Thomas...
This topic is to put light on Ennis life after Jack passed away and how he will forgive himself and attain release from all the pain...There is no doubt that Ennis will always be one with Jack in spirit and his heart will always belong Jack and he will live his life with that pure, unselfish and immortal love. I know that this will be too difficult for Ennis but he will live to keep Jack’s love alive…

Please share your valuable thoughts and opinions on this..Thanks a ton dear Brokies...

I loved your post, but my state of mind still wants to avoid thinking about this. I can not stand thinking about so many lonely years that could have been so beautiful and happy. When I write this post, I can hardly breathe! It is so definite, so devastating... :\'(

Anyway I liked how someone said on another topic - Jack is for sure waiting Ennis on Brokeback mountain, where one day when Ennis says Goodbye to this valley of tears, they'll be together forever. This thought can make my heart only a little less suffer and I just need to skip the lonely years of Ennis until that happy moment.

I still go to bed and get up with E&J in my mind! When I manage to put them aside, I will have more to offer. At the moment I am blocked with as unbearable pain! (Usually not as stupid as now! )

 

[tpe]

Thanks smartestsonia!

I sometimes go back and forth between the terms "reformation" and "transformation" when it comes to describe Ennis after Jack's death.

Both terms are tied in with my idea of the role of forgiveness.

Specifically, did Ennis have the heart to forgive himself for what he saw as his part in Jack's sorrow and demise?

The clue, I think, is in Ennis's acceptance of his daughter's marriage invitiation.

His wanting to make a fresh start indicates a willingness to forgive himself and look past the previous failings.  Jack's death had enabled him to take stock on his life's own priorities, and move in a direction that showed that he was ready to make amends -- if not with Jack, then with someone he also loved deeply.

I think "reformation" indicates a going back to a previous state, whereas "transformation" indicates going beyond the old self.  Deep down, I think forgiveness (especially the ability to forgive oneself) is a transformative power.  It is only in one's ability to forgive one's past failings that one is able to move beyond the former self.  

I think that the final "I swear" also serves in part as a plea to forgiveness.

[LuvJackNasty]

Interesting topic  I do have thoughts on this, though none I can articulate clearly right now  I'll have to come back to this.

[atalley]

Perfect, Thomas!

[smartestsonia]

I loved your post, but my state of mind still wants to avoid thinking about this. I can not stand thinking about so many lonely years that could have been so beautiful and happy. When I write this post, I can hardly breathe! It is so definite, so devastating... :\'(

Anyway I liked how someone said on another topic - Jack is for sure waiting Ennis on Brokeback mountain, where one day when Ennis says Goodbye to this valley of tears, they'll be together forever. This thought can make my heart only a little less suffer and I just need to skip the lonely years of Ennis until that happy moment.

I still go to bed and get up with E&J in my mind! When I manage to put them aside, I will have more to offer. At the moment I am blocked with as unbearable pain! (Usually not as stupid as now! )

 

Thanks Loreen..I can understand what u r going through…I feel that every time him I watch the film and I know that when I will watch it next, it will be the same..Sometimes these thoughts come to my mind and it will makes me sad...So many years and so much regret…The pain and suffering of so many years gets to me….am left hollow and vulnerable..I need to to release Ennis from the pain after Jack passed away and somewhere I even needed myself and a lot others also to free from that pain... I think that when he saw the shirt it dawned onto him as to how precious he is and what he means to Jack….I think he never wated that to die…Death can never take away what love they shared nor any barrier created by man can change that..I really believe that he did live a long life because he was loved and he would never let that go away...I think there r very few people who find true love....they r fortunate...Ennis found his soulmate and I know that many some opportunities were not considered by Ennis when Jack was alive which Ennis does regret...But after all that pain and suffering a huge part of me believes and feels that Ennis did find meaning in his life…He found out that Jack gave him that meaning and that could never be destroyed...He lived his life with this strong faith.. This way he lived for Jack for forever and ever….

[smartestsonia]

Thanks smartestsonia!

I sometimes go back and forth between the terms "reformation" and "transformation" when it comes to describe Ennis after Jack's death.

Both terms are tied in with my idea of the role of forgiveness.

Specifically, did Ennis have the heart to forgive himself for what he saw as his part in Jack's sorrow and demise?

The clue, I think, is in Ennis's acceptance of his daughter's marriage invitiation.

His wanting to make a fresh start indicates a willingness to forgive himself and look past the previous failings.  Jack's death had enabled him to take stock on his life's own priorities, and move in a direction that showed that he was ready to make amends -- if not with Jack, then with someone he also loved deeply.

I think "reformation" indicates a going back to a previous state, whereas "transformation" indicates going beyond the old self.  Deep down, I think forgiveness (especially the ability to forgive oneself) is a transformative power.  It is only in one's ability to forgive one's past failings that one is able to move beyond the former self.  

I think that the final "I swear" also serves in part as a plea to forgiveness.

Thanks Thomas..I loved your expalination of reformation and transformation….I think that Ennis would have been shattered if he would not have considered forgiving himself..As I had earlier said that it would have been the most difficult thing to do…But Ennis did want to live for his daughters and Ennis did also want to live for Jack…He wanted to live keeping Jack alive in his thoughts, memories and feelings…When I personally think about it, it almost chokes me but I make myself strong…

I think Ennis learned things in life the hardest way anybody goes through emotionally…I think Jack always wanted him to be strong and courageous and he will be strong for Jack to keep Jack's love alive...

[tpe]

Perfect, Thomas!

Thanks atalley!   

Thanks Thomas..I loved your expalination of reformation and transformation….I think that Ennis would have been shattered if he would not have considered forgiving himself..As I had earlier said that it would have been the most difficult thing to do…But Ennis did want to live for his daughters and Ennis did also want to live for Jack…He wanted to live keeping Jack alive in his thoughts, memories and feelings…When I personally think about it, it almost chokes me but I make myself strong…

I think Ennis learned things in life the hardest way anybody goes through emotionally…I think Jack always wanted him to be strong and courageous and he will be strong for Jack to keep Jack's love alive...

I should be the one to thank you, smartestsonia. 

I think the older Ennis's saving grace was his ability to forgive himself, even though he will never be able to forget the missed opportunity that was his for the taking.  It takes a lot of courage (and humility) to forgive oneself, especially when one has ther wisdom of hindsight.    Yes, as you said, it was a very TOUGH lesson.  But he did not come away completely destroyed. 

You bring up a very interesting point: I also think that Jack would have wanted Ennis to be strong -- not keep everything within himself, but to face the world in a new and better light.  This would only be possible if one can accept one's failings -- and there can be no acceptance without forgiveness...

[smartestsonia]

I should be the one to thank you, smartestsonia. 

I think the older Ennis's saving grace was his ability to forgive himself, even though he will never be able to forget the missed opportunity that was his for the taking.  It takes a lot of courage (and humility) to forgive oneself, especially when one has ther wisdom of hindsight.    Yes, as you said, it was a very TOUGH lesson.  But he did not come away completely destroyed. 

You bring up a very interesting point: I also think that Jack would have wanted Ennis to be strong -- not keep everything within himself, but to face the world in a new and better light.  This would only be possible if one can accept one's failings -- and there can be no acceptance without forgiveness...

I agree with ya Thomas...You can call me Cleo...
I think its huge to forgive oneself...the key to that is acceptance of ones own flaws and to learn from it…it is a great step towards self realization and to acknowledge ones failures…Its a worst scenario when one needs to forgive himself after he puts someone else through a difficult time and then he wants to apologize to that person but that person is gone away forever…This thought gets to me in the final scene…Ennis wants to apologize to Jack but he cant do it…That makes forgiveness difficult as Jack is not physically around.,.,But I think that Ennis was able to forgive himself inspite of Jack not being physically around...This was a great step to live a life ahead...He wanted to live and will live…He will hope that Jack has forgiven him for his shortcomings…Jack would have been disheartened to see Ennis suffer and he always wanted Ennis to be happy and Ennis will for the rest of his life to keep Jack happy...He will live for Jack and that is one of the greatest symbol of love

[tpe]

I agree with ya Thomas...You can call me Cleo...
I think its huge to forgive oneself...the key to that is acceptance of ones own flaws and to learn from it…it is a great step towards self realization and to acknowledge ones failures…Its a worst scenario when one needs to forgive himself after he puts someone else through a difficult time and then he wants to apologize to that person but that person is gone away forever…This thought gets to me in the final scene…Ennis wants to apologize to Jack but he cant do it…That makes forgiveness difficult as Jack is not physically around.,.,But I think that Ennis was able to forgive himself inspite of Jack not being physically around...This was a great step to live a life ahead...He wanted to live and will live…He will hope that Jack has forgiven him for his shortcomings…Jack would have been disheartened to see Ennis suffer and he always wanted Ennis to be happy and Ennis will for the rest of his life to keep Jack happy...He will live for Jack and that is one of the greatest symbol of love

Thanks Cleo -- and yes, the is opening up to self-forgiveness is the beginning of true healing and self-acceptance.

For some reason, I get the feeling that Jack is very much present in that last scene.  The presence is established in the closet at LF, where I feel that Ennis is truly hugging Jack.  Not physical, but just as palpable -- and perhaps more real than real.

[smartestsonia]

Thanks Cleo -- and yes, the is opening up to self-forgiveness is the beginning of true healing and self-acceptance.

For some reason, I get the feeling that Jack is very much present in that last scene.  The presence is established in the closet at LF, where I feel that Ennis is truly hugging Jack.  Not physical, but just as palpable -- and perhaps more real than real.

After reading your post I suddenly remembered something I mentioned before in another topic that the final scene belonged to Ennis as much as it belonged to Jack..I think we have the same opinion about that.....I could literally feel his presence in the final scene...As if Jack’s soul is in those shirts and Ennis is hugging them…Jack as an angel will always be with Ennis...Ennis will sense him wherever he goes…I think living ones life for another person is one of the greatest gestures of love…I hope and believe Ennis will exactly do that….He will live for Jack and he will feel him everywhere in the mountains, near the lake, the greenery and above all in his heart..

[tpe]

After reading your post I suddenly remembered something I mentioned before in another topic that the final scene belonged to Ennis as much as it belonged to Jack..I think we have the same opinion about that.....I could literally feel his presence in the final scene...As if Jack’s soul is in those shirts and Ennis is hugging them…Jack as an angel will always be with Ennis...Ennis will sense him wherever he goes…I think living ones life for another person is one of the greatest gestures of love…I hope and believe Ennis will exactly do that….He will live for Jack and he will feel him everywhere in the mountains, near the lake, the greenery and above all in his heart..

Call it wishful thinking, but in that last scene, I also felt that Jack forgave him.  I would assume that you felt the same way?  I could pretty much imagine the spirit of Jack moving Ennis to take stock of his relationship with his daughter and change for the better.  I don't think Ennis could have done what he did in the final scene without having the strength to forgive himself first.  There was hope...

[LuvJackNasty]

Although the positive me believes that Ennis did live the rest of his life with Jack always with him in his heart as his strength and support...

The positive in me believes that too 

I think "reformation" indicates a going back to a previous state, whereas "transformation" indicates going beyond the old self.  Deep down, I think forgiveness (especially the ability to forgive oneself) is a transformative power.  It is only in one's ability to forgive one's past failings that one is able to move beyond the former self.  

I think that the final "I swear" also serves in part as a plea to forgiveness.

I agree. But sometimes I think we are quicker to forgive others than ourselves. We are at times our biggest champions and our worst enemies.

How I see Ennis’s fate at the end depends wholly on my mood. After my first viewing, my thoughts were consumed with him in that little trailer with those shirts. Sometimes I think he went on to have a long life, having been able to find some peace with what happened and with himself. Other times I see him as so lost. His acceptance of Junior’s invitation was big- I think he saw that same look in her eyes that he’d seen in Jack too many times before. And he learned that life is too short, you cannot prepare for what may or may not happen- life is going to happen and keeping those you love at arms length sometimes leaves you holding an empty shirt.  I think that Ennis’s steps in those regards are a great tribute to Jack.

I’ve always wondered about that final shot, after he closes the closet door. This will probably come out all convoluted so bear with me. Through his window we see a bit of road, the blue sky and a field of yellow and green. I looked up the meanings of colors and got this:  Blue may be truth; it is linked to loyalty and constancy. Yellow stands for both light and cowardice. Green stands for envy, growth, renewal, and life. The cowardice is in between the truth and growth or maybe it’s the light that is in-between. Green is the dominating color which suggests that Ennis is on the road to renewal.  I think the little stretch of road indicates that he doesn’t have that far to go.

But then I wonder if we are seeing what he can’t see (yet) because when he opens that closet door and visits that altar maybe in an act of penance, it blocks out that view. The shots of him buttoning the shirt is an interesting juxtaposition to me in that we see both where he’s been and where he is going side by side. Sometimes I see him closing the door and turning away as a sign that he isn’t quite ready to embrace all that he’s learned. Other times I see it as him closing the door on what he can’t change and that very last shot as hopeful.

[vedrana]

The positive in me believes that too 

 His acceptance of Junior’s invitation was big- I think he saw that same look in her eyes that he’d seen in Jack too many times before. And he learned that life is too short, you cannot prepare for what may or may not happen- life is going to happen and keeping those you love at arms length sometimes leaves you holding an empty shirt.  I think that Ennis’s steps in those regards are a great tribute to Jack.

This is beautifully said.  Junior's eyes were Jack's eyes at the moment where she was pleading for him to come to her wedding. And Ennis decided that he wouldn't disappoint the people he loves any more!

Anyway, I think maybe we underestimate Ennis - he was firm all his life, and his "motto" was - he'll stand it, cause he can't fix it! As much as it breaks my heart, I think that he had that strength all his life and he still has it! That's why I like this character!

The other question is if he would have a long life. I am afraid that his inner struggles made his health deteriorate. In his 40's he looked like an old man.

Anyway, can't help myself crying every time I even think of those Brokeback mountain hugging shirts! All the story, all their love and deep connection was materialized in those 2 shirts. So masterfully done! :\'( :\'( :\'(

[smartestsonia]

Call it wishful thinking, but in that last scene, I also felt that Jack forgave him.  I would assume that you felt the same way?  I could pretty much imagine the spirit of Jack moving Ennis to take stock of his relationship with his daughter and change for the better.  I don't think Ennis could have done what he did in the final scene without having the strength to forgive himself first.  There was hope...

I think that Jack did forgive Ennis...Jack very well knew why Ennis felt and behaved in the way he did...Jack understood Ennis’s deep seated childhood fears…As a child witnessing a cruel death is traumatic...Jack was so empathic and his heart melted when he heard about Ennis childhood experiences.....He knew that Ennis was a victim of so many fears...

He knew that Ennis dint want his kids to know about their relation. I think Jack would definitely forgive Ennis as Ennis did everything out of his own misery…Ennis never intentionally wanted to hurt Jack and Ennis loved Jack beyond limits…Jack knew that…

Even after the final confronation Jack was completely shattered and his look seeing Ennis walking away after the fight gives me chills..He was hurt to the core..But I think at that time there were a lot of things that were roaming around Jack's mind…Inspite of being sore and devastated at the bottom of his heart he knew that what he and Ennis shared is the most precious thing to both...He knew it was the same with Ennis even though he has never told that…So much is left unspoken between them..but inspite of that my heart strongly says that they understood each others strenghts and weakness and problems…

I think in the final scene Jack was looking at Ennis and comforting him and Ennis found the strenght of forgiving himself with the faith that Jack has forgiven him for his weaknesses and miserable situation...

[vedrana]

Well, I never thought that Jack was holding anything against Ennis, he was only sad and bitter living the life he did not want to. But he did not blame on Ennis. He accepted him completely, with his good and bad side.... at least I think so.

On the other hand, Ennis is the one who'll always regret for the things said and things unsaid! He'll endure, as he's as hard as a rock, but deep inside he knows that his love's gone forever.

Never enough time... never enough...  :\'(  :\'(  :\'(

Another thing always come to my mind as I often and intensively think about the reasons of PBS! That's Jack's death - so sensesless, so "unimportant", not even defined (we don't know for sure how he died), so tragic, so stupid, so unnecessary.... Everything about his death is strange as he is one the main characters, but suddenly he dissapears, with no word, no significant sign.... How can someone so so important to others (I include Bobby and Lureen here) vanish without a proper closure... So strange death! So unexpected!

I think that this presentation of his death make the movie much harder to take, and our PBS is going wild.....  :\'(  :\'(  :\'(

[tpe]

I agree. But sometimes I think we are quicker to forgive others than ourselves. We are at times our biggest champions and our worst enemies.

How I see Ennis’s fate at the end depends wholly on my mood. After my first viewing, my thoughts were consumed with him in that little trailer with those shirts. Sometimes I think he went on to have a long life, having been able to find some peace with what happened and with himself. Other times I see him as so lost. His acceptance of Junior’s invitation was big- I think he saw that same look in her eyes that he’d seen in Jack too many times before. And he learned that life is too short, you cannot prepare for what may or may not happen- life is going to happen and keeping those you love at arms length sometimes leaves you holding an empty shirt.  I think that Ennis’s steps in those regards are a great tribute to Jack.

I’ve always wondered about that final shot, after he closes the closet door. This will probably come out all convoluted so bear with me. Through his window we see a bit of road, the blue sky and a field of yellow and green. I looked up the meanings of colors and got this:  Blue may be truth; it is linked to loyalty and constancy. Yellow stands for both light and cowardice. Green stands for envy, growth, renewal, and life. The cowardice is in between the truth and growth or maybe it’s the light that is in-between. Green is the dominating color which suggests that Ennis is on the road to renewal.  I think the little stretch of road indicates that he doesn’t have that far to go.

But then I wonder if we are seeing what he can’t see (yet) because when he opens that closet door and visits that altar maybe in an act of penance, it blocks out that view. The shots of him buttoning the shirt is an interesting juxtaposition to me in that we see both where he’s been and where he is going side by side. Sometimes I see him closing the door and turning away as a sign that he isn’t quite ready to embrace all that he’s learned. Other times I see it as him closing the door on what he can’t change and that very last shot as hopeful.

I have always wondered about the final shot myself.    To me, the scene out the window reflects Ennis's internal loneliness, even as he starts to reach out to others in the process of healing and forgiveness.  But I see the metaphor that you see in the color green.  Perhaps there is also renewal, along with the sadness.

[tpe]

I think that Jack did forgive Ennis...Jack very well knew why Ennis felt and behaved in the way he did...Jack understood Ennis’s deep seated childhood fears…As a child witnessing a cruel death is traumatic...Jack was so empathic and his heart melted when he heard about Ennis childhood experiences.....He knew that Ennis was a victim of so many fears...

He knew that Ennis dint want his kids to know about their relation. I think Jack would definitely forgive Ennis as Ennis did everything out of his own misery…Ennis never intentionally wanted to hurt Jack and Ennis loved Jack beyond limits…Jack knew that…

Even after the final confronation Jack was completely shattered and his look seeing Ennis walking away after the fight gives me chills..He was hurt to the core..But I think at that time there were a lot of things that were roaming around Jack's mind…Inspite of being sore and devastated at the bottom of his heart he knew that what he and Ennis shared is the most precious thing to both...He knew it was the same with Ennis even though he has never told that…So much is left unspoken between them..but inspite of that my heart strongly says that they understood each others strenghts and weakness and problems…

I think in the final scene Jack was looking at Ennis and comforting him and Ennis found the strenght of forgiving himself with the faith that Jack has forgiven him for his weaknesses and miserable situation...

I also believe that Jack forgave Ennis.  And for a specific reason, I think of it as being entirely unconditional.  We see the biggest hint in the DE itself, where he didn't care whether Ennis's love was not perfect.  This is I think what he recalled most in that final look in the Last Confrontation -- and what probably comforted him as he perhaps decided to move on: that he will always have that love for Ennis, no matter what.

[tpe]

Another thing always come to my mind as I often and intensively think about the reasons of PBS! That's Jack's death - so sensesless, so "unimportant", not even defined (we don't know for sure how he died), so tragic, so stupid, so unnecessary.... Everything about his death is strange as he is one the main characters, but suddenly he dissapears, with no word, no significant sign.... How can someone so so important to others (I include Bobby and Lureen here) vanish without a proper closure... So strange death! So unexpected!

I think that this presentation of his death make the movie much harder to take, and our PBS is going wild.....  :\'(  :\'(  :\'(

The senselessness and mystery of it all (Who were the murderers?  Why?)  was a deliberate decision on Ang Lee's part -- given that we know of existing deleted scenes that elaborate on the "mechanics".  The fact that Ang Lee didn't include any of this background material gives the murder a powerful and mysterious effect.  It makes it so so hard to take and understand.

 

[myprivatejack]

I also believe that Jack forgave Ennis.  And for a specific reason, I think of it as being entirely unconditional.  We see the biggest hint in the DE itself, where he didn't care whether Ennis's love was not perfect.  This is I think what he recalled most in that final look in the Last Confrontation -- and what probably comforted him as he perhaps decided to move on: that he will always have that love for Ennis, no matter what.

I sometimes feel that Jack not only had forgiven Ennis,but also that must forgive himself somehow.I mean that IMO he felt in their last goodbye a little guilty by perhaps having decided to move on with Randall.He knew at that moment that Ennis love was deeper than he ever had thought and came to termns of understanding him more than before.So,he perfectly could feel himself guilty of having put another person between the two of them.What's your opinion about this?.

[vedrana]

I sometimes feel that Jack not only had forgiven Ennis,but also that must forgive himself somehow.I mean that IMO he felt in their last goodbye a little guilty by perhaps having decided to move on with Randall.He knew at that moment that Ennis love was deeper than he ever had thought and came to termns of understanding him more than before.So,he perfectly could feel himself guilty of having put another person between the two of them.What's your opinion about this?.

MPJ, I see no Randall in the picture, for he was only a comfort, a man who can could give Jack some substitute sex and replacement for his needs. Nothing more than that!

Summer 1963. Jack fell in love with Ennis, and that love was immense! Jack understood Ennis so much more that Ennis even understand himself. He agreed to meet him so  infrequently, only 2-3 times a year, in the woods far away from others, he agreed to forgive so many rejections from Ennis, and still travel for 14 hours each time he went to see Ennis! This is something that is not to forgive, but to admire.

Unfortunately, Ennis's inner distractions were too hard to accept Jack's love completely,and Jack DID UNDERSTAND THAT! But he needed more... and Randall was just a convenient opportunity. Nothing more than that!

Why he mentioned Randall to his father? Maybe he thought that he'd sound more convincing if he stopped to speak about Ennis De Maar, for so many years, and that father would believe that he can make his plan come true! For there is NO APPARENT evidence that Randall would really come to LF! This was also only Jack's little white lie or a dream or... well - that's Jack !!

Another thing: if Jack was really giving up on Ennis, would he be so irritated because of so late meeting (in November?)...No! He would've say: OK; Ennis, you just keep on working, I found myself a man who always have enough time, with available cabin, and a good will to take me to the heaven!

But Jack didn't say that! He embraced Ennis, and hold him tight,, letting him know that he's there for him always. If Jack hadn't gone, he'd still be happy to drive 14 hours just to make love to his Brokeback mountain friend and lover!

Randall?? Who's Randall?  ^^)

 

[myprivatejack]

I find your post very true and right,Loreen,and I'm saying the truth;but I'm still believe that Randall was not only a sexual relief for Jack-he had got it during so many years with the Mexican prostitutes,as a matter fo fact...-,but also an emotional relief.We don't know for sure which is the real role Randall played in Jack's decision of moving on-in the movie it's very few said about it and in the s.s. it simply doesn't exist...-; but I do believe that Jack had arrived to feel a little-or very-fed up about this so unsatisfactory situation they were living.He was measuring between his great love for Ennis and the possibility of beguinning a new life where his lover didn't want to have a place;of course,he loved him still so,so,so much and for this reason his behaviour in FC.But he needed also to relief his mind and heart,not only his body.
Anyhow,I'm afraid we're a little  ; there's another thread where we can speak about Randall's role in this story,that is:

http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=11865.0

[vedrana]

I find your post very true and right,Loreen,and I'm saying the truth;but I'm still believe that Randall was not only a sexual relief for Jack-he had got it during so many years with the Mexican prostitutes,as a matter fo fact...-,but also an emotional relief.We don't know for sure which is the real role Randall played in Jack's decision of moving on-in the movie it's very few said about it and in the s.s. it simply doesn't exist...-; but I do believe that Jack had arrived to feel a little-or very-fed up about this so unsatisfactory situation they were living.He was measuring between his great love for Ennis and the possibility of beguinning a new life where his lover didn't want to have a place;of course,he loved him still so,so,so much and for this reason his behaviour in FC.But he needed also to relief his mind and heart,not only his body.
Anyhow,I'm afraid we're a little  ; there's another thread where we can speak about Randall's role in this story,that is:

http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=11865.0

Dear MPJ ,

Mexico is so far away and Randall is so near and convenient to have... without any costs!

I will check upon the thread you mentioned, but for now - I just see NO Rendall! I see only Jack&Ennis- their problems, their love, their misunderstanding! 

[vedrana]

Uh!

I found so many of you take Randall as someone important in Jack's life.... Well I don't! It's just that I follow both SS and the movie, and there's no room for no one else there. Jack had been with many other men, and if he's beaten to death (Most probably!), that was not because someone found out about Ennis, but rather bacause of promiskuitet behavior, which could've attract the attention of murderers!

But Randall itself... for me he's only an episode, someone near, available, handsome and willing to do it!

And I could not possibly imagine that dandy to go to live in LF??? I truly don't think so!

[babytammy7]

Hello Loreen. 

Unfortunately, Ennis's inner distractions were too hard to accept Jack's love completely,and Jack DID UNDERSTAND THAT! But he needed more... and Randall was just a convenient opportunity. Nothing more than that!

 

I disagree with you here, sorry. Jack didn’t understand that. First Jack thought that Ennis couldn’t be with him because he was married and he couldn’t leave Alma and the girls. That’s why Jack was so happy when he learned that Ennis had divorced. But then he found out that Alma was not the reason that kept them apart. You can see his slow realization when he follows Ennis’ eyes when he looks at that truck on the road. Jack knew then that Ennis was not with him because of his fears, yes, but also because of his paranoia. If Jack had understood Ennis reasons to be apart, he wouldn’t have been that bitter and hurt for so many years. He sure loved Ennis beyond limits but he didn’t get why they couldn’t live together. I mean, in the last confrontation when Jack said to Ennis that they could have had a good life together, he doesn’t said “but you couldn’t Ennis” but “but you did NOT want, Ennis”. Jack thought that Ennis simply didn’t want to live with him, you know. Because Jack was also scared, but when you love someone you fight and take changes and risks, and that’s why Jack didn’t get why Ennis didn’t act like him.

Another thing: if Jack was really giving up on Ennis, would he be so irritated because of so late meeting (in November?)...No! He would've say: OK; Ennis, you just keep on working, I found myself a man who always have enough time, with available cabin, and a good will to take me to the heaven!

 

Well, baby, if you see the film again you’ll hear Jack saying before the last confrontation that he was gonna go and see his parents after they parted. And then you can see that OMT said that Jack told him about that ranch foreman the last spring. Jack used to see his folks after every fishing trip, and the very Jack said to Ennis that he was gonna go to LF now. So Jack told his father his plans about the foreman after the confrontation scene, when he left the mountain and went to LF.
I’ve never thought not even for a second that Jack gave up on Ennis, and I’m sure he’d have been on the mountain coming November. But it’s sure that Jack was terrible hurting that spring, and maybe, like Thomas said once, he thought that it was the best for Ennis if he left Ennis alone, because Jack saw that Ennis was suffering a lot having that relationship with him, and that he renounce lots of things to be with Jack. So sometimes the greatest prove of love is leave your lover be, quit him, and sacrifice yourself in order to give him peace. Maybe Jack wanted to give up on Ennis not for himself but for Ennis, you know, to stop hurting him, because Ennis said that he was like that because of Jack (I'm nothin. I'm nowhere). I don’t know.

But Jack didn't say that! He embraced Ennis, and hold him tight,, letting him know that he's there for him always. If Jack hadn't gone, he'd still be happy to drive 14 hours just to make love to his Brokeback mountain friend and lover!

 

Like I’ve said, yeah, he’d have been there, but Jack was NOT happy anymore driving 14 hours to see his lover. That’s why Jack was so bitter and angry and desperate. That was not enough for him. Those fishing trips were more and more infrequent, and briefer, and Jack was so hungry for more. He needed to live with Ennis the whole damn time, every day, and not only a week in the middle of nowhere, hidden like if they were criminals. Jack said yes to Ennis terms when they were young because in that moment it was all whet he could do to not loose Ennis. Little is better than nothing. But now it hurt so much. Jack wants more, still is dreaming, but he can see that it’ll always like that, meeting on a mountain, never live together, and Jack is bitter and disappointed. He still keeps meeting with Ennis, because he can’t help it, he loves him so so so much, but happy to drive 14 hours to spend only seven days with Ennis? Mmmm..if that was like that Jack had not been that angry and serious and sad. Jesus, you can see his face that last night they spent together. Where was that chatty, happy, sweet smiling man? He was just a broken ghost of what he was. He was bleeding inside. All those years of !@#$ fishing trips were killing him slowly. That last trip he finally understood that Ennis will never live with him...and that shattered him, and sure he was so blind with pain that he started to talk about Randall, because he only wanted a man by his side, someone to love and be loved by. Jack was only trying to find a substitute for Ennis, to try to forget him, because maybe he thought that he was wasting his life, chasing dreams to never come true. He maybe thought that he deserved more than hidding on a mountain. He was not happy anymore with those fishing trips, and besides they were more infrequent because of Ennis jobs, so maybe for Jack it was another sign saying that Ennis didn’t want him like before.
Some brokies here said that even if Jack had given up on Ennis, that doesn’t mean that their love had died. Jack couldn’t stop love Ennis, and no matter if he was gonna live with Randall or not, Ennis got his whole heart, Ennis will always and forever be the love of his life.

Uh!

I found so many of you take Randall as someone important in Jack's life.... Well I don't! It's just that I follow both SS and the movie, and there's no room for no one else there. Jack had been with many other men, and if he's beaten to death (Most probably!), that was not because someone found out about Ennis, but rather bacause of promiskuitet behavior, which could've attract the attention of murderers!

But Randall itself... for me he's only an episode, someone near, available, handsome and willing to do it!

And I could not possibly imagine that dandy to go to live in LF??? I truly don't think so!

Well, I’m sure Jack didn’t love Randall, but Randall was not only a f*ck buddy. I mean, they spent almost 5 years together (you can see that in the Screenplay), so they were friends for sure, good friends.

All of this is only my humble opinion, and please notice that I’d written lots of “maybe”, because I don’t know, we don’t know for sure.

Sorry for the big OT. 

[vedrana]

Hello Loreen. 

I disagree with you here, sorry. Jack didn’t understand that. First Jack thought that Ennis couldn’t be with him because he was married and he couldn’t leave Alma and the girls. That’s why Jack was so happy when he learned that Ennis had divorced. But then he found out that Alma was not the reason that kept them apart. You can see his slow realization when he follows Ennis’ eyes when he looks at that truck on the road. Jack knew then that Ennis was not with him because of his fears, yes, but also because of his paranoia. If Jack had understood Ennis reasons to be apart, he wouldn’t have been that bitter and hurt for so many years. He sure loved Ennis beyond limits but he didn’t get why they couldn’t live together. I mean, in the last confrontation when Jack said to Ennis that they could have had a good life together, he doesn’t said “but you couldn’t Ennis” but “but you did NOT want, Ennis”. Jack thought that Ennis simply didn’t want to live with him, you know. Because Jack was also scared, but when you love someone you fight and take changes and risks, and that’s why Jack didn’t get why Ennis didn’t act like him.

Well, baby, if you see the film again you’ll hear Jack saying before the last confrontation that he was gonna go and see his parents after they parted. And then you can see that OMT said that Jack told him about that ranch foreman the last spring. Jack used to see his folks after every fishing trip, and the very Jack said to Ennis that he was gonna go to LF now. So Jack told his father his plans about the foreman after the confrontation scene, when he left the mountain and went to LF.
I’ve never thought not even for a second that Jack gave up on Ennis, and I’m sure he’d have been on the mountain coming November. But it’s sure that Jack was terrible hurting that spring, and maybe, like Thomas said once, he thought that it was the best for Ennis if he left Ennis alone, because Jack saw that Ennis was suffering a lot having that relationship with him, and that he renounce lots of things to be with Jack. So sometimes the greatest prove of love is leave your lover be, quit him, and sacrifice yourself in order to give him peace. Maybe Jack wanted to give up on Ennis not for himself but for Ennis, you know, to stop hurting him, because Ennis said that he was like that because of Jack (I'm nothin. I'm nowhere). I don’t know.


Like I’ve said, yeah, he’d have been there, but Jack was NOT happy anymore driving 14 hours to see his lover. That’s why Jack was so bitter and angry and desperate. That was not enough for him. Those fishing trips were more and more infrequent, and briefer, and Jack was so hungry for more. He needed to live with Ennis the whole damn time, every day, and not only a week in the middle of nowhere, hidden like if they were criminals. Jack said yes to Ennis terms when they were young because in that moment it was all whet he could do to not loose Ennis. Little is better than nothing. But now it hurt so much. Jack wants more, still is dreaming, but he can see that it’ll always like that, meeting on a mountain, never live together, and Jack is bitter and disappointed. He still keeps meeting with Ennis, because he can’t help it, he loves him so so so much, but happy to drive 14 hours to spend only seven days with Ennis? Mmmm..if that was like that Jack had not been that angry and serious and sad. Jesus, you can see his face that last night they spent together. Where was that chatty, happy, sweet smiling man? He was just a broken ghost of what he was. He was bleeding inside. All those years of !@#$ fishing trips were killing him slowly. That last trip he finally understood that Ennis will never live with him...and that shattered him, and sure he was so blind with pain that he started to talk about Randall, because he only wanted a man by his side, someone to love and be loved by. Jack was only trying to find a substitute for Ennis, to try to forget him, because maybe he thought that he was wasting his life, chasing dreams to never come true. He maybe thought that he deserved more than hidding on a mountain. He was not happy anymore with those fishing trips, and besides they were more infrequent because of Ennis jobs, so maybe for Jack it was another sign saying that Ennis didn’t want him like before.
Some brokies here said that even if Jack had given up on Ennis, that doesn’t mean that their love had died. Jack couldn’t stop love Ennis, and no matter if he was gonna live with Randall or not, Ennis got his whole heart, Ennis will always and forever be the love of his life.

Well, I’m sure Jack didn’t love Randall, but Randall was not only a f*ck buddy. I mean, they spent almost 5 years together (you can see that in the Screenplay), so they were friends for sure, good friends.

All of this is only my humble opinion, and please notice that I’d written lots of “maybe”, because I don’t know, we don’t know for sure.

Sorry for the big OT. I’ll shut up now. 

Dear Baby Tammy, thanks for your valuable opinion!  And for you effort to write such a long post! Of course, here comes mine... I don't know how long, I'll just let it roll...

As for Jack's understanding Ennis.. well to be honest sometimes I don't even understand myself. So, it's not easy to understand someone 120% and be absolutely aware of every single reason for someone's behaviour. Sure, Jack didn't understand all, but he understood quite enough. His bitterness though was not the result of not understanding Ennis. It was the result of realizing the bad situation he has been thorough. In another words, do you think that if Jack did understand Ennis, he wouldn't have been bitter for such a miserable life they've had? Yes he would've! For sure! It's not his understanding, rather was his misery, his never completely fulfilled needs for love that made him bitter. But he did understand. And he drove 14 hours to be with Ennis! Not that happy, but always eager to see him!  I love this character so much for this! 

I am sure that Jack was hurt, it was too obvious - empty eyes, anger... everything was there. And it is possible that in the future he would not put so much pressure on Ennis to make him come to "fishing", for he wanted to let him be, but saying that Jack's going to get Randall to LF?? Seeing Randall so important to himself, so well dressed, real dandy... I can not believe that he would consider even for a second to go to live in such a sad place as LF. All this talking about Randall was Jack's way to avoid his pain, to talk anything just to forget Ennis.

Anyway, I didn't know that he spent 5 years with Randall. That's new. But even Randall was so near and willing, he always drove back to Wyoming to meet the love of his life! I cherish their love so much I just can not accept anyone to interfear!

At first, I though that it was repulsive how promiscuite Jack was, but now... now I understand. It was Jack! It was his need for Ennis that make him do what he did!

Finally, a lot of things we can only flair, but the real truth of this highly complicated story is left to each of us individually to experience through our own eyes. And my eyes see only Ennis together with Jack, with all the burden they've been carring through their lives. I admire Jack for so strong and deep love, but at the same time admire Ennis for his strenght never to loosen and feed his needs for Jack with another man.

Both of them had virtues and faults, but two of them together were a perfect whole and that's what I see! 

[babytammy7]

Seeing Randall so important to himself, so well dressed, real dandy... I can not believe that he would consider even for a second to go to live in such a sad place as LF. All this talking about Randall was Jack's way to avoid his pain, to talk anything just to forget Ennis.

Baby, that's exactly what I said in my post. Lots of brokies here never believed not even for a second that Randall was gonna live with Jack in LF. We think that maybe it was another Jack's dream, just like when he said to his father that someday he was gonna bring Ennis.

I never blamed Jack for his infidelities. I understood him from the very beginning. It'll take me a lot to try and explain my theory about infidelities, because of my English, but I can tell you that Jack didn't it that on purpose or wanting to hurt Ennis....Jack was a big wound on legs...That was his only way to endure the pain. **sigh** Now, I think I'm gonna cry. My Jack.... :\'( :\'(

I knew that I shouldn't come back to the forum. Some things hurt too much.

Thank you for your reply, baby. 

[vedrana]

Baby, that's exactly what I said in my post. Lots of brokies here never believed not even for a second that Randall was gonna live with Jack in LF. We think that maybe it was another Jack's dream, just like when he said to his father that someday he was gonna bring Ennis.

I never blamed Jack for his infidelities. I understood him from the very beginning. It'll take me a lot to try and explain my theory about infidelities, because of my English, but I can tell you that Jack didn't it that on purpose or wanting to hurt Ennis....Jack was a big wound on legs...That was his only way to endure the pain. **sigh** Now, I think I'm gonna cry. My Jack.... :\'( :\'(

I knew that I shouldn't come back to the forum. Some things hurt too much.

Thank you for your reply, baby. 

I just love when you call me "baby"!

All of us BBM-crazy folks in fact feel almost the same. We just talk over and over to make the pain easier... but sometimes is even worse when we think and talk too much.

I am 100% sure that all the pain would be so easier if Ennis/Heath did not leave us. As I said so many times before - in this way we lost them both - Jack in the movie and Ennis in real life. That makes me not sad, but as dead as i feel lack of daily or longterm wishes, feel lack of interest in really important things, lack of any joy in life! And I KNOW THAT'S WRONG! Because if anything has so bad and severe impact on one's life, than something's wrong! But what??? 

 

Baby Tammy,  !

[tpe]

I sometimes feel that Jack not only had forgiven Ennis,but also that must forgive himself somehow.I mean that IMO he felt in their last goodbye a little guilty by perhaps having decided to move on with Randall.He knew at that moment that Ennis love was deeper than he ever had thought and came to termns of understanding him more than before.So,he perfectly could feel himself guilty of having put another person between the two of them.What's your opinion about this?.

This is so true.  Thanks, MPJ, for bringing this up.  I think that parting look at Ennis also has a small amount of forgiveness and understanding, together with the heartache, disillusion, and sadness.  They all combine to make it a very complex and deep scene. 

I also cannot see Jack moving on without the grace to forgive -- not just Ennis but also himself.  I would like to think that this is indeed so.

[smartestsonia]

I sometimes feel that Jack not only had forgiven Ennis,but also that must forgive himself somehow.I mean that IMO he felt in their last goodbye a little guilty by perhaps having decided to move on with Randall.He knew at that moment that Ennis love was deeper than he ever had thought and came to termns of understanding him more than before.So,he perfectly could feel himself guilty of having put another person between the two of them.What's your opinion about this?.

I completely agree with ya MPJ...I think Jack did feel guilty but in FC he was so hurt of being sidelined for so many years that he dint bring that up..At the FC he felt that Ennis should have given him more time or they should have lived together and then all would have been fine...I think in the final scene Ennis and Jack did forgive each other and themselves..Ennis knew that Jack understood why he was so and he hoped for forgiveness and IMO had faith that he was forgiven by Jack...Jack's presence is felt too strongly in the final scene and I think that Jack also did forgive Ennis for all....In FC after Ennis left a part of Jack did hope for forgiveness himself...Jack saw how destroyed Ennis became when he got to know that Jack went to Mexico..he saw him crying and breaking down...Jack would have never ever wanted to hurt Ennis or put him through so much grief..looking at all this Jack of course would have been guilty too...When I personally of think all this I feel that they both reacted to the situation which came in front of them...I know that there were regrets as to how things could have been different but am sure that Ennis did learn the depths of Jacks' love and his love for Jack in the FC...A love shared forever and ever