Topic: Did Jack's Love "Wear Out"

[August7th]

There's a passage in Gone With the Wind (the book) that is interesting when considering the final scene between Jack and Ennis. Near the end of that book, Scarlett has finally decided that she does love Rhett after all, but he is no longer interested. He says to her, " . . . Scarlett, did it ever occur to you that even the most deathless love could wear out? . . . Mine wore out against Ashley Wilkes and your insane obstinacy that makes you hold on like a bulldog to anything you think you want. Mine wore out."

Thus, Rhett can "quit" Scarlett and truly not give a damn what she does or where she goes. I don't believe that Jack had reached that point. But the fact that he would vocalize a desire to "quit" Ennis makes me wonder -- although his love for Ennis was a once-in-a-lifetime love, was that love wearing out?

[tpe]

Hello August7th, and welcome to thwe forum.

I think that as far as Jack was concerned, it was the hope for a sweet life that eroded in the end.  But I don't think it was Jack's love for Ennis that wore out.  There is a big difference, would you agree?  In real life, we sometimes encounter someone we dearly love and persist in trying to make things work, even though it becomes clear early on that there are difficulties in making the relationship work.  If you have gone through the same thing, perhaps you reached a point when you despaired of the relationship and decided to quit trying and move on.  But in some of those cases, won't you agree with me that the love you have for the person persists long after you have lost hope? 

[August7th]

Hello August7th, and welcome to thwe forum.

I think that as far as Jack was concerned, it was the hope for a sweet life that eroded in the end.  But I don't think it was Jack's love for Ennis that wore out.  There is a big difference, would you agree?  In real life, we sometimes encounter someone we dearly love and persist in trying to make things work, even though it becomes clear early on that there are difficulties in making the relationship work.  If you have gone through the same thing, perhaps you reached a point when you despaired of the relationship and decided to quit trying and move on. But in some of those cases, won't you agree with me that the love you have for the person persists long after you have lost hope? 

Good point tpe, but I wonder whether the love erodes along with the hope if you blame the other person for the situation. In the short story, Jack's tone during their last meeting is described as "bitter and accusatory."

[jackster]

Hey there August7th, welcome.

Have to agree with Thomas here. I’m not sure Jack even thought of it as “love”. As has been discussed many times, neither of ‘em ever utters this simple phrase. Jack says he wishes he could “quit you”, but to me this is more an admission that he can’t quit. Like smokers who say “I wish I could quit . . .”.  He also reveals that he still misses Ennis so much sometimes that “I can hardly stand it”.

Sounds like it's the dream that wore out, maybe his love of the dream, the dream of a sweet life. After nearly 20 years I think he sees that he an’ Ennis are “it”, start to finish it’s gonna be with this guy. Good, bad, for better or worse, part of the deal he struck when he sent that postcard in ‘67. Know some may disagree, JMHO.

[atalley]

I think that Jack DID know it was love right away.  I don't think he would've taken & kept Ennis' shirt all those yrs., otherwise.  He knew Ennis couldn't "handle" those 3 words that he longed to whisper in his ear.

[rimasworld]

20 years is a long time and Jack's patience regarding the situation had definitely worn thin and he was frustrated at Ennis' inability to budge an inch. But he never stopped loving him, Ennis was his whole world and nobody could ever take his place. I think if Jack would have lived he would have kept trying to make it work, just like Scarlett in GWTW said at the end of that movie, "tomorrow is another day."

[lancecowboy]

Wow, August7th!  What a great thread! Thank you for asking this question.

I've never read Gone with the Wind, but I love the movie. I am glad the book explained Rhett's line because I have always felt it was too abrupt and heartless. I didn't think it fitted with Rhett's love for Scarlett. Now, with the explanation about wearing out, I can see that it makes sense.

Rhett loved Scarlett, but his love was unrequited for a long time. It was always someone else, or something else. Scarlett never devoted her love to Rhett until the very end, and by that time, he was worn out...by the lack of affection, the lies, the .... There was little upside for Rhett, and a whole lot of downside.

I think the situation is not at all the same for Ennis and Jack. Although Ennis was impossibly rigid when it comes to shacking up with Jack, sharing his dream of a cow and calf operation, there is no doubt in Jack's mind, that they share something special.

As mentioned by others, he kept the two-shirts for twenty years. He cried driving away that summer of '63. He was thrilled to be re-united with Ennis. He was surprised by the intensity of Ennis kissing him. He was happy in the motel, by the river, ..., any time he was with Ennis. It's why he could hardly standing it, missing Ennis so much. It is not unrequited love...it is mutual love, shared and felt...there's no rein on this one.

It is true, however, that by the final confrontation, Jack was sick and tired of Ennis' inability to commit. He needed more, and he was willing to negotiate with Ennis if necessary. But Ennis was unable to budge.

I am not sure if Jack's love was worn out. I think he still loved Ennis deeply, and would do anything to be with Ennis, but he also recognized, and out of love for Ennis, accepted the impossibility of their situation. Jack was willing to leave broken hearted, when Ennis said in tears, in his arms, "I can't take this no more, Jack."

The genius of Ang Lee was to juxtaposition the brokenhearted gaze of Jack watching Ennis driving off, with the loving longing gaze of the younger Jack watching Ennis riding off after the dozy embrace.

No, I don't think, in my humble opinion, that Jack's love was worn out at the final confrontation. If anything, the love between them was finally confronted as such, although still not verbalized, so that Jack knew it as he gazed brokenhearted, and Ennis was awoken to it, when Cassie told him at the diner, "Girls don't fall in love with fun."

Whew...thanks for asking the question, and getting me to revisit the intense final confrontation again with fresh new perspective.

Welcome to the forum, August7th, and I hope to hear from you again and again. 

[smartestsonia]

Hey August7th..Welome for the forum Brokie..
I personally think that Jacks’s love would never wear out even if he wanted to..In the final confrontation when he told Ennis that he felt sidelined and he got frustrated and mentioned his wish to quit. He used the word “I wish” because he himself knew that he would not be able to quit Ennis…all those years he held onto him..20 years is a long time and even though the distances came between them due to lack of communication and meetings or Ennis's fear, Jack and Ennis never left each other’s side…that is the biggest evidence to their undying love...Neither of them could quit from each other…Infact in the final scene when Ennis hugs the shirts its shows us that Jack kept the love alive for so many years and in the final scene we felt Jack’s presence..As told by atalley Jack kept the shirts for so many years and when Ennis hugs those shorts in the last scene Ennis is too submerged in Jack’s love…It so so very present around that room consoling Ennis :\'(

[vedrana]

Good thread!  

I (as expected) agree with all of you who said that his love was immense. Nothing and no one could make Jack's love fade away. That's why I like that character so very much!

The very nature of DE (comfort, confession, support, understanding...) is a proof of how much they felt for each other at that very moment - and forever!

Ennis Jack

Jack  Ennis

[smartestsonia]

Ennis Jack

Jack  Ennis

Loreen, the sound of this is so soothing to my ears..makes me rejoice 
Thanks dear  

[vedrana]

Loreen, the sound of this is so soothing to my ears..makes me rejoice 
Thanks dear  

Dear Cleo   

[tpe]

Good point tpe, but I wonder whether the love erodes along with the hope if you blame the other person for the situation. In the short story, Jack's tone during their last meeting is described as "bitter and accusatory."

It is very probable.  But reading Proulx's description of the Dozy Embrace as Jack's own thoughts after all this, I sense that this is not the case here. 

What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger. ...Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see or feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that. Let be, let be."

-- Proulx, Brokeback Mountain.

[August7th]

I want to agree that Jack's love for Ennis wasn't "wearing out" even if his dream of living with Ennis was. But, on the other hand, why did Jack tell his father he was planning on leaving his wife and moving back to Lightning Flat with a ranch neighbor from Texas? As I understand the timeline of the story, he makes that statement while visiting his parents immediately after his confrontation with Ennis.

I'd like to hear your views on this issue. I wager, though, that it has been discussed on another thread, so feel free to point me in that direction if that's more appropriate.

[vedrana]

I want to agree that Jack's love for Ennis wasn't "wearing out" even if his dream of living with Ennis was. But, on the other hand, why did Jack tell his father he was planning on leaving his wife and moving back to Lightning Flat with a ranch neighbor from Texas? As I understand the timeline of the story, he makes that statement while visiting his parents immediately after his confrontation with Ennis.

I'd like to hear your views on this issue. I wager, though, that it has been discussed on another thread, so feel free to point me in that direction if that's more appropriate.

Hi!   
IMO (maybe some other Brokies disagree  ) he said it not because that other guy, presumably Randall, would really go to live to LF, but rather because Jack was hurt, or he thought that his 20 years old words about plan to get Ennis there already sounded funny, as Ennis was not coming. Maybe he wanted to be more convincing to his oldman who disrespected him.

It could be anything, but giving up on Ennis. I firmly believe that!

I wrote this post in a hurry, so maybe i did not explain it the best... later... 

[lancecowboy]

August7th, the comment by the old man about the Texan ranch neighbour is indeed puzzling. We don't know for certain the circumstances that prompted the exchange. There are a number of possibilities.

I think Jack's love for Ennis would never get worn out. If he lived, and received Ennis' post card to meet in November, Jack would redline his truck and be there, with bells on.

The relationship between the old man and Jack is one of domination and love/hate. The old man takes every opportunity to dominate Jack, and bully him into submission, into showing Jack who is boss. Jack, on the one hand craves the respect and love from his father, but also hate and despise the cruel and heartless behavior. His mention of Ennis for twenty years, in my opinion, was an expression of his dream, his wish, that it would be so. That spring, after the final confrontation, and having his heart broken, Jack was confronted by the old man, probably in a sneer with a spit, "So how about that Ennis, when is he coming up here to whip us into shape?" I have no doubt that in a moment of anguish and spiteful hatred poisoned by the old man, Jack retorted with a new partner. I doubt there would have been anything happening with Randall. The guy was just playing with Jack (he had a rich wife, was a vet with a good job) and Jack was just playing along as a substitute for Ennis, and a closer drive than Mexico. As others have said, Jack's remarks in the final confrontation was telling in so many ways.
"I wish I could quit you."
"You have no idea how bad it gets."
"...the short leash you keep me on..."
These are not remarks of a love worn out, but a love desperate for fulfillment, yearning to be closer, to be more.
"Never enough time."

As he stared brokenhearted while Ennis drove off, Jack was waiting for Ennis to turn around, and say, let's go and have mad passionate sex, then move up to your folks to build us a cow and calf operation, and spend the rest of our lives together. You be the wife.

Jack would have jumped up and said I do.

[FlwrChild]

Welcome August7th. What a great subject for a thread.

I love all the answers I’ve seen to this and agree with most of what has been said. The quote from GWTW is a good one, but I don’t think the analogy fits because the issues between Rhett and Scarlett were not ones of outside influence on the relationship, but rather Scarlett’s own obsessive affection for someone else. There is no doubt to any of us, and I suspect to Jack either, that Ennis loves Jack. It is the pressures of the unforgiving world they live in and the bleak lessons that Ennis has learned in his life that make him unable to commit to that sweet life with Jack.

I do think the quote fits though because I have seen how even a very deep love can ‘wear out’ after years of disappointments, frustrations and hurt feelings. I tend to think that what kept Jack from crossing into that territory was the knowledge that Ennis was as bound by his defensive barriers (and therefore on just as short a leash) as Jack was. So through all the hurt and all the years of loneliness, he still had the core love to hold onto. And his ability to cling to that (which is even shown in his reflection of the DE - let be, let be) is what kept his love alive and from wearing out.


Andrew, I also believe that had he lived, Jack would have been there in November. The SS makes it clear that when they parted, things had been "torqued back almost to where they had been" and that nothing had changed.


As to your impression of what Jack was thinking as Ennis drove away, I’m assuming that was somewhat tongue in cheek.


“As he stared brokenhearted while Ennis drove off, Jack was waiting for Ennis to turn around, and say, let's go and have mad passionate sex, then move up to your folks to build us a cow and calf operation, and spend the rest of our lives together. You be the wife.

Jack would have jumped up and said I do.”


I will certainly agree that what Jack always wanted and hoped for was for Ennis to say that he wanted to make a life together. That was clear from the first time he said “It could be like this, just like this, always” to the final confrontation when he said “We could’ve had a good life together…..but you didn’t want it…”

I don’t think that he was even remotely thinking about sex in that moment. As it says in Thomas’ quote from the SS, it was that “shared and sexless hunger” that he craved. As “brilliant as the charge from their infrequent coupling was“, it was the life together, their joined hearts, the chance to spend ordinary days together as a couple that filled Jack’s wishes.

And I’m floundering over the idea that either one of them would ever have suggested that either of them should assume the role of “wife.” It was this use of such a stereotypical misconception that got me thinking “Ah, this part is tongue in cheek.” I’m assuming your point is that even after expressing such disappointments and declaring that he “wishes” he could quit Ennis, had Ennis turned around and said “Ok, let’s try to make a life together,” Jack would still have jumped at the chance. And on that score, I would agree. I just get uncomfortable any time I hear those gender assignments in referring to same sex relationships. And there was certainly never any hint at that dynamic between these two characters.

[lancecowboy]

Yup, FlwrChild, you know me well. I love the humor between Ennis and Jack. The hardest part of the last confrontation was the total lack of humor.

I wish that Ennis DID turn around, and did all that I wrote for him to say to Jack. And the two run off to live their lives together. Sex or no sex, their love is endless.

 

[vedrana]

August7th, the comment by the old man about the Texan ranch neighbour is indeed puzzling. We don't know for certain the circumstances that prompted the exchange. There are a number of possibilities.

I think Jack's love for Ennis would never get worn out. If he lived, and received Ennis' post card to meet in November, Jack would redline his truck and be there, with bells on.

The relationship between the old man and Jack is one of domination and love/hate. The old man takes every opportunity to dominate Jack, and bully him into submission, into showing Jack who is boss. Jack, on the one hand craves the respect and love from his father, but also hate and despise the cruel and heartless behavior. His mention of Ennis for twenty years, in my opinion, was an expression of his dream, his wish, that it would be so. That spring, after the final confrontation, and having his heart broken, Jack was confronted by the old man, probably in a sneer with a spit, "So how about that Ennis, when is he coming up here to whip us into shape?" I have no doubt that in a moment of anguish and spiteful hatred poisoned by the old man, Jack retorted with a new partner. I doubt there would have been anything happening with Randall. The guy was just playing with Jack (he had a rich wife, was a vet with a good job) and Jack was just playing along as a substitute for Ennis, and a closer drive than Mexico. As others have said, Jack's remarks in the final confrontation was telling in so many ways.
"I wish I could quit you."
"You have no idea how bad it gets."
"...the short leash you keep me on..."
These are not remarks of a love worn out, but a love desperate for fulfillment, yearning to be closer, to be more.
"Never enough time."

As he stared brokenhearted while Ennis drove off, Jack was waiting for Ennis to turn around, and say, let's go and have mad passionate sex, then move up to your folks to build us a cow and calf operation, and spend the rest of our lives together. You be the wife.

Jack would have jumped up and said I do.

Lance   ,

you're so right here! And the details you explained are  !  

 

I extremely dislike John Twist for complete lack of understanding and respect for his only son. And that goes from Jack's childhood. So Jack just had to have some story to justify himself, to make the oldgoat  accept his ideas! Uh!  ^^)

 

[FlwrChild]

Yup, FlwrChild, you know me well. I love the humor between Ennis and Jack. The hardest part of the last confrontation was the total lack of humor.

I wish that Ennis DID turn around, and did all that I wrote for him to say to Jack. And the two run off to live their lives together. Sex or no sex, their love is endless.
 

It is indeed. 

So you meant that Ennis should have said that in a joking manner then. I think I understand. I don't see that ever happening though, as much as they used to kid around. For one thing, that wouldn't have been a humorous moment. Had Ennis turned around and taken such a huge step, it would have taken an agonizing effort on his part and they both would have been stone cold serious. Happy, but serious. And I still think that Jack would have knocked him on his ass if he'd ever tried to get a comment like that by him.

I would love to see them take that serious moment though and set them on the road to that life together. One that would allow them to recapture those humorous moments and all of the happier, carefree ones they were denied as the years wore on.

[lancecowboy]

It is indeed. 

So you meant that Ennis should have said that in a joking manner then. I think I understand. I don't see that ever happening though, as much as they used to kid around. For one thing, that wouldn't have been a humorous moment. Had Ennis turned around and taken such a huge step, it would have taken an agonizing effort on his part and they both would have been stone cold serious. Happy, but serious. And I still think that Jack would have knocked him on his ass if he'd ever tried to get a comment like that by him.

I would love to see them take that serious moment though and set them on the road to that life together. One that would allow them to recapture those humorous moments and all of the happier, carefree ones they were denied as the years wore on.

ENNIS: Sorry, Jack, I see what you mean. It gets so bad I can hardly stand it. I've quit the little waitress in Riverton. Let's go and have mad passionate sex, then move up to your folks to build us a cow and calf operation, and spend the rest of our lives together. You be the wife.

JACK: You take that back. I wear the pants, and I have a mustache, with a big silver belt buckle. You better not act queer around my folks. My Ma is cool, but the old man will beat you silly.

ENNIS: Oh, yeah? I ain't afraid of you or your old man. Want to settle it right here, huh, cowboy? See who's on top?

JACK: ... You never let me be on top. 

ENNIS: Aw...come here, little darling. 

[FlwrChild]

Now you're just playing with me.   


Meant to say earlier also that I liked the explanations from you and loreen about Randall. I completely agree with you both. 

[vedrana]

ENNIS: Sorry, Jack, I see what you mean. It gets so bad I can hardly stand it. I've quit the little waitress in Riverton. Let's go and have mad passionate sex, then move up to your folks to build us a cow and calf operation, and spend the rest of our lives together. You be the wife.

JACK: You take that back. I wear the pants, and I have a mustache, with a big silver belt buckle. You better not act queer around my folks. My Ma is cool, but the old man will beat you silly.

ENNIS: Oh, yeah? I ain't afraid of you or your old man. Want to settle it right here, huh, cowboy? See who's on top?

JACK: ... You never let me be on top. 

ENNIS: Aw...come here, little darling. 

OMG, is it always about who's gonna be on top??? I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with these problems! 

Anyway, I LIKED "little darling" in the last sentence....

[smartestsonia]

author=lancecowboy link=topic=14829.msg859103#msg859103 date=1228345493]
ENNIS: Sorry, Jack, I see what you mean. It gets so bad I can hardly stand it. I've quit the little waitress in Riverton. Let's go and have mad passionate sex, then move up to your folks to build us a cow and calf operation, and spend the rest of our lives together. You be the wife.

JACK: You take that back. I wear the pants, and I have a mustache, with a big silver belt buckle. You better not act queer around my folks. My Ma is cool, but the old man will beat you silly.

ENNIS: Oh, yeah? I ain't afraid of you or your old man. Want to settle it right here, huh, cowboy? See who's on top?

JACK: ... You never let me be on top. 

ENNIS: Aw...come here, little darling. 

Thanks so much for this Lancecowboy  ....You brought a smile to my face...

[jackster]

OMG, is it always about who's gonna be on top??? I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with these problems! 

Nah, with just a little creativity you figure out how you both can be on top (course not at the same time!).

Andrew, your caption was hilarious, but shouldn't it be over there in the "Pawning" section?

Getting far OT here . . . .

Great analysis FC. At that point it wasn't about the sex, Jack just wanted to feel wanted.

[vedrana]

Great analysis FC. At that point it wasn't about the sex, Jack just wanted to feel wanted.

I think that Jack's empty childhood with an abusive father formed him to a person who wanted to feel wanted and loved all his life. FC maybe just emphasized it! This makes Jack so attractive to anyone who has enough love inside his soul (me included). Ennis got that huge love for Jack, but also so many fears to pull him back from the most precious thing in his life. Gee, I manage to make myself sad again.  :\'(

Let's talk top and down , that's more relaxing!

[tpe]

I want to agree that Jack's love for Ennis wasn't "wearing out" even if his dream of living with Ennis was. But, on the other hand, why did Jack tell his father he was planning on leaving his wife and moving back to Lightning Flat with a ranch neighbor from Texas? As I understand the timeline of the story, he makes that statement while visiting his parents immediately after his confrontation with Ennis.

I'd like to hear your views on this issue. I wager, though, that it has been discussed on another thread, so feel free to point me in that direction if that's more appropriate.

Because he had given up hope that he can convince Ennis to live with him.  Isn't this common with many people who love somebody but find out that they would never be able to live together?  It could be family objections that the other person is unwilling to disobey, for example.  This one is VERY common.  They move on, or try to move on.  For some of them, they only succeed in making their life miserable by trying to settle for second best.  Others find peace in resigning themselves to moving on, even though their love remains intact, and always will be.

I had an acquaintance who did exactly this early in his life, only to be reunited with his first love many years later, when both of them had gone through divorces.

[tpe]

A wonderful exchange here.  Thanks everybody!

[lancecowboy]

Nah, with just a little creativity you figure out how you both can be on top (course not at the same time!).

Andrew, your caption was hilarious, but shouldn't it be over there in the "Pawning" section?

Getting far OT here . . . .

Great analysis FC. At that point it wasn't about the sex, Jack just wanted to feel wanted.

I was thinking about being Off topic, too, but I figured a picture is worth a thousand words, and the little psycho-drama illustrates the connection between Ennis and Jack even at the heat of confrontation. They BOTH loved each other, just didn't know how to say it. I was only fulfilling what FlwrChild asked for, and put some words into the mouth of the cowboys. Sorry about the top and bottom thing, but it's just my trying to follow the standard running joke about Ennis and Jack.

I am with you, Jackster, that the two are happy to switch.

Yup, Jack just wanted to feel wanted. And Ennis was happy to be wanted. That's what love is. But Ennis was not sure how to say it. So I had him borrowing the same words from Jack, and it would be natural for Jack to fall into his arms, into a new level of embrace. If only...

[jackster]

. . . . that the two are happy to switch.

"You wanna' switch, I'd be happy to . . . "

Andrew, never thought a' before! 

Seems this is irrefutable evidence that Ennis was, as the tractor says, Versatile.

[FlwrChild]

Now I think we really are getting off topic.  Let's bring it back to the subject at hand.

I'm curious August7th, as to whether any of these theories or impressions we've been exchanging have had any impact on your own impressions from this scene.

And as to Jack being bitter and accusatory in the final confrontation, I would also agree that he felt that way in a burst of anger but still clung to the love stronger than to his own disappointments. Especially based on that line from the SS:...let be, let be... I think that as painful as it was for him to live with, he always understood that Ennis was wrestling with a lot of inner demons and therefore more unable than unwilling to give Jack what he wanted. It was probably this understanding that allowed Jack to keep the love alive in his heart even after all those lonely years of separation.