Topic: Did Jack's Love "Wear Out"

[lancecowboy]

"You wanna' switch, I'd be happy to . . . "

Andrew, never thought a' before! 

Seems this is irrefutable evidence that Ennis was, as the tractor says, Versatile.

  Yup, You Bet 

[lancecowboy]

Now I think we really are getting off topic.  Let's bring it back to the subject at hand.

I'm curious August7th, as to whether any of these theories or impressions we've been exchanging have had any impact on your own impressions from this scene.

And as to Jack being bitter and accusatory in the final confrontation, I would also agree that he felt that way in a burst of anger but still clung to the love stronger than to his own disappointments. Especially based on that line from the SS:...let be, let be... I think that as painful as it was for him to live with, he always understood that Ennis was wrestling with a lot of inner demons and therefore more unable than unwilling to give Jack what he wanted. It was probably this understanding that allowed Jack to keep the love alive in his heart even after all those lonely years of separation.

I am with you FlwrChild. I feel there is a difference in attitude between Rhett's "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn" then walking out the door, and Jack's "Damn it, Ennis" then hugging and holding on tight.

Rhett's unrequited love was worn out;
Jack's painful frustrated love hidden from public view was alive but...let be...like a seed patiently waiting for Ennis to come and pour sunshine and life giving moisture, for it to bloom...come November.
It's not worn out; it's waiting...forever waiting.
 

[atalley]

Another good post Andrew.

[August7th]

I'm curious August7th, as to whether any of these theories or impressions we've been exchanging have had any impact on your own impressions from this scene.

"I wish I could quit you."
"You have no idea how bad it gets."
"...the short leash you keep me on..."
These are not remarks of a love worn out, but a love desperate for fulfillment, yearning to be closer, to be more.
"Never enough time."

Rhett's unrequited love was worn out;
Jack's painful frustrated love hidden from public view was alive but...let be...like a seed patiently waiting for Ennis to come and pour sunshine and life giving moisture, for it to bloom...come November.
It's not worn out; it's waiting...forever waiting.
 

Yes, FlwrChild, all the responses have really given me a lot of food for thought. The quotes from lancecowboy above express better than I can where I now stand on whether Jack's love for Ennis had worn out by the time of their last meeting.

But I wonder what the future would have held had Jack lived. The look on his face in the movie as Ennis drives away seems ambiguous to me. I agree with lancecowboy that Jack is brokenhearted, but I think that look also has an exhausted, defeated, (dare I say) "worn out" quality to it. To me, it embodies visually the short story's statement that they "torqued things ALMOST to where they had been" [emphasis added].

[FlwrChild]

Good point August7th.

All I can say is that we'll never know what might have happened had Jack lived. That is one of those nagging questions that lingers in our minds. I do know that I recognize that look and the feelings that go with it. And I dare say that wasn't the first time that Jack wore a look at least somewhat like that. His love was certainly being worn down from the outside. I guess the only question is how well was he able to fortify it from within and how much longer would he have been able to do that? Another 20 years? Two? The question lingers. 

[vedrana]

It's not worn out; it's waiting...forever waiting.

  for this Lance

 

[lancecowboy]

Good point August7th.

All I can say is that we'll never know what might have happened had Jack lived. That is one of those nagging questions that lingers in our minds. I do know that I recognize that look and the feelings that go with it. And I dare say that wasn't the first time that Jack wore a look at least somewhat like that. His love was certainly being worn down from the outside. I guess the only question is how well was he able to fortify it from within and how much longer would he have been able to do that? Another 20 years? Two? The question lingers. 

  loreen 

I agree, FlwrChild. I think as tough as it had been for Jack, he was worn down, but not defeated. I think his love for Ennis was, at that point, like the dying Phoenix, ready to rise from ashes if Ennis was ready to light a spark and to kindle the ember. But then I am always the optimist.

[vedrana]

I agree, FlwrChild. I think as tough as it had been for Jack, he was worn down, but not defeated. I think his love for Ennis was, at that point, like the dying Phoenix, ready to rise from ashes if Ennis was ready to light a spark and to kindle the ember. But then I am always the optimist.

I feel the same.

I firmly believe that it was only death (so sad and sensesless :\'() that could make Jack separate from Ennis.

IMO they were one soul and one body, they'd come together one way or the other. Each scrap Ennis was giving to Jack, he cherish it and loved Ennis for it. Ennis always knew that he would find his love(r) any time he needed him, that his "Little darling" will wait for him no matter what.

So many unsaid things, but even more exposed emotions all over BBM!

I will always be sad for Jack's death  :\'( , for that was the cruelest was to part them and shadowed their everlasting love.  :\'(

[atalley]

loreen 

I agree, FlwrChild. I think as tough as it had been for Jack, he was worn down, but not defeated. I think his love for Ennis was, at that point, like the dying Phoenix, ready to rise from ashes if Ennis was ready to light a spark and to kindle the ember. But then I am always the optimist.

As usual, another great post, Andrew.

[LuvJackNasty]

 Had Ennis turned around and taken such a huge step, it would have taken an agonizing effort on his part and they both would have been stone cold serious. Happy, but serious. And I still think that Jack would have knocked him on his ass if he'd ever tried to get a comment like that by him.

 I couldn't agree more  And I know you don't see that as even a remote possibility.

I also think that the love was still there but that it was the dream itself that was going on life support. I think that the FC was Jack’s wall breaking; the dam bursting and he wasn’t just railing against Ennis or the situation, but himself as well- Ennis set the “rules” and he followed them willingly. It eventually takes its toll on you. “nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved” still hopelessly adrift, not certain if they will reach the shore or drown in the current. That look on Jack’s face as Ennis drives away breaks my heart.  Jack’s recalling the DE conjures up so many things for me-wanting to go back to a time before there were “rules”, a tender moment of being cared for, a reminder of why they are in this in the first place…. “Let be” trips me up sometimes because depending on my mood, I guess, I interpret it in different ways. I mostly think it was Jack resigning himself to the fact that that was a moment in time, too many years and miles between then and now, sort of the flame on a candle flickering in the breeze.

[FlwrChild]

 
I also think that the love was still there but that it was the dream itself that was going on life support. I think that the FC was Jack’s wall breaking; the dam bursting and he wasn’t just railing against Ennis or the situation, but himself as well- Ennis set the “rules” and he followed them willingly. It eventually takes its toll on you. “nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved” still hopelessly adrift, not certain if they will reach the shore or drown in the current. That look on Jack’s face as Ennis drives away breaks my heart.  Jack’s recalling the DE conjures up so many things for me-wanting to go back to a time before there were “rules”, a tender moment of being cared for, a reminder of why they are in this in the first place…. “Let be” trips me up sometimes because depending on my mood, I guess, I interpret it in different ways. I mostly think it was Jack resigning himself to the fact that that was a moment in time, too many years and miles between then and now, sort of the flame on a candle flickering in the breeze.

OMG, that’s beautiful LJN. You’ve summed up their relationship so well, I can almost feel my heart breaking all over again for both of them.
 :\'( 

I couldn't agree more  And I know you don't see that as even a remote possibility.

You know me so well. That wife bit wouldn’t play in my book.

No actually I said I didn’t see either of them behaving that way. I feel that anything that took place in that moment would be a very serious exchange. Andrew was just taunting me a little. We don’t necessarily see this from the same angle but what we both agree on is that Jack’s love, while worn, was not ‘worn out’ ( just like your candle in the wind analogy) and that had Ennis turned around and finally agreed to give that sweet life a try (which all of us long for right along with Jack), Jack would still have been ready to do so. He was, as Andrew said “forever waiting.” We were just ribbing each other. Sorry if there was any confusion.


I do believe, as Andrew does, that there was more humor in the earlier years of their relationship, before life had beaten them both down somewhat. And I would love to imagine their life together, if Ennis had finally taken that chance, as being filled with humor, passion, and companionship, just as they started out on the mountain that first summer.

[vedrana]

I couldn't agree more  And I know you don't see that as even a remote possibility.

I also think that the love was still there but that it was the dream itself that was going on life support. I think that the FC was Jack’s wall breaking; the dam bursting and he wasn’t just railing against Ennis or the situation, but himself as well- Ennis set the “rules” and he followed them willingly. It eventually takes its toll on you. “nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved” still hopelessly adrift, not certain if they will reach the shore or drown in the current. That look on Jack’s face as Ennis drives away breaks my heart.  Jack’s recalling the DE conjures up so many things for me-wanting to go back to a time before there were “rules”, a tender moment of being cared for, a reminder of why they are in this in the first place…. “Let be” trips me up sometimes because depending on my mood, I guess, I interpret it in different ways. I mostly think it was Jack resigning himself to the fact that that was a moment in time, too many years and miles between then and now, sort of the flame on a candle flickering in the breeze.

So true! And well described!

[tpe]

But I wonder what the future would have held had Jack lived. The look on his face in the movie as Ennis drives away seems ambiguous to me. I agree with lancecowboy that Jack is brokenhearted, but I think that look also has an exhausted, defeated, (dare I say) "worn out" quality to it. To me, it embodies visually the short story's statement that they "torqued things ALMOST to where they had been" [emphasis added].

This is all true.  And it also embodies the most important thing: "Let be.  Let be."

[vedrana]

This is all true.  And it also embodies the most important thing: "Let be.  Let be."

Here we go back to the fact that at this point (during FC), Jack's end was already foreseen! That's sad! :\'(

As AP decided to finish their love story at that point, any presumption about their meeting in November is useless! But we can always hope in our hearts! As we know that their love is eternal...

[smartestsonia]

I think inspite of the fact of recieving Ennis's rejection that they could not live together, Jack holds on to what he has with Ennis...In the final scene he said that he wished he could quit him "..He dint say "I will quit you " or " I am quitting u".
..It simply shows that it was something impossible for Jack..Jack's love for Ennis was constant inspite of all mishaps and regrets and 20 years man..it's a long time and even though so many hurts were there, Jack still was with Ennis and his love is eternal.. I think in the final scene when Ennis saw the shirts he saw that Jack's love is too deep and meaningful and all for him and that is something which will give him hope to live for the rest of his life..The fact that he was loved made the rest of his life worth living..

[vedrana]

I think inspite of the fact of recieving Ennis's rejection that they could not live together, Jack holds on to what he has with Ennis...In the final scene he said that he wished he could quit him "..He dint say "I will quit you " or " I am quitting u".
..It simply shows that it was something impossible for Jack..Jack's love for Ennis was constant inspite of all mishaps and regrets and 20 years man..it's a long time and even though so many hurts were there, Jack still was with Ennis and his love is eternal.. I think in the final scene when Ennis saw the shirts he saw that Jack's love is too deep and meaningful and all for him and that is something which will give him hope to live for the rest of his life..The fact that he was loved made the rest of his life worth living..

Oh yes! I will always be the one who sees only Ennis and Jack together. In any way and any situation. No one could separate them, as they were one! 

The other thing is  - was Ennis life worthy because he knew that he was loved... I don't know. He should've known that he had been loved years ago, when Jack was willing to leave his family and everything only to be with him. Now, Jack's gone, and suddenly his love makes Ennis's life worthy? I'm just not sure. I always watch things from AP's view point, and all I see that what she wanted to emphasize was Ennis's sorrow and emptiness...and spiritual Jack's presence in dreams and shirts....   :\'(

 

[smartestsonia]

Oh yes! I will always be the one who sees only Ennis and Jack together. In any way and any situation. No one could separate them, as they were one! 

The other thing is  - was Ennis life worthy because he knew that he was loved... I don't know. He should've known that he had been loved years ago, when Jack was willing to leave his family and everything only to be with him. Now, Jack's gone, and suddenly his love makes Ennis's life worthy? I'm just not sure. I always watch things from AP's view point, and all I see that what she wanted to emphasize was Ennis's sorrow and emptiness...and spiritual Jack's presence in dreams and shirts....   :\'(

 

I know what u mean Loreen...Ya, Ennis should have known this a time ago when Jack wanted to live with him...I think he did know that but his own fears of rejection, embarrasment and worse to be killed made him shut himself from this reality...He feared so much and that made himself not follow his heart...He knew Jack loved him but he did not want to reciprocate that by living with him..we have to see this from Ennis point of view and the generation in which they were living..Being involved with another man was a cultural and social taboo and Ennis wanted to save himself from abandonment..He thought that he would defenitely be in a secret realtion with Jack and just becuse he knew that Jack loved him he was clinging to the relation for 20 years..Obviously that was not enough for Jack.He wanted to be a more active part of Ennis life..

The point I am trying to make is that in the end when Ennis sees the shirts it hits him that he never knew the intensity of jack's love.,Imagaine keeping a old, worn out shirt with someone's blood as a token of love...It was the mark of Jacks's love and suffeirngs and longing for Ennis all these years..Ennis feels really bad and broken..But just think if Ennis would just give up on his life at that time , it would not been what Jack would want...Jack always wanted to see that Ennis was happy and living in peace...If Ennis would have tried to end his life or lived like a vegetable it would have hurt Jacks' soul...Ennis knew that..He dint want to hurt Jack anymore and the only way to do so was to ask for Jack's forigivness and to forgive himself for not being there for Jack all these years and to live the rest of his life in peace and in Jack's memory..
I feel that if Ennis would do that it would make Jacks' soul rest in peace...Its chokes me to think all this but I feel so...

[vedrana]

The point I am trying to make is that in the end when Ennis sees the shirts it hits him that he never knew the intensity of jack's love.,Imagaine keeping a old, worn out shirt with someone's blood as a token of love...It was the mark of Jacks's love and suffeirngs and longing for Ennis all these years..Ennis feels really bad and broken..But just think if Ennis would just give up on his life at that time , it would not been what Jack would want...Jack always wanted to see that Ennis was happy and living in peace...If Ennis would have tried to end his life or lived like a vegetable it would have hurt Jacks' soul...Ennis knew that..He dint want to hurt Jack anymore and the only way to do so was to ask for Jack's forigivness and to forgive himself for not being there for Jack all these years and to live the rest of his life in peace and in Jack's memory..
I feel that if Ennis would do that it would make Jacks' soul rest in peace...Its chokes me to think all this but I feel so...

Today, after thinking about BBM over and over again, I just wanted to persuade myself that Jack maybe took those shirts years ago and just forgot about them.... and they have no deeper meaning at all....

I know that it' s a lie, but I wanted to save myself from further pain caused by 2 hugging shirts which strike my heart every single day... :\'( :\'( :\'(

I think that maybe there is a possibility that Ennis's wish to continue life has something to do with Jack, or something, but IMO, that is not so important at all. I know that I'm being the most pessimistic person in all this forum (  ), but the way I see the last scene and ending of the movie/SS is like that.

Ennis continued living as well as he lived before - suffering and standing something that he couldn't change. That's Ennis, that's how he was.Jack's wish that Ennis would live a happy life has nothing to do with it, IMO.

The very words of AP in SS shows that Ennis was living somewhere in the middle of his own belief (maybe daydreaming about Jack), and the reality (absence of Jack)...

Surely, he felt guilty because he never accepted the best offer in his miserable life - offer from his "little darling" to live together. But most of his emotions is built of extreme regret, regret for loosing so many opportunities to be with Jack and live a "sweet life",
in the most devastating way  - by loosing Jack himself! I think that'll kill his feelings till the day he dies...

 :\'( :\'( :\'(

[aintfoolin]

I don't think that Ennis could ever go back to being the same after Jack's death. It is remarkable the things Ennis did post-Jack that he would've never done before. Calling Lureen, traveling beyond the coffepot to LF, and when there laid himself so bare to two strangers, Jack's parents, that he was their son's friend...and lover.  Watched the film the other day for the umpteeth time..( I've lost count), I just hate the fact that Jack had to die.

For years Ennis  hid his love  from others due to fear, shame, whatever, but now he must face those fears head on. Guilt? yes, regrets? certainly, but the shirts were symbolic in their own right of Jack's continuous love for him. Ennis imo sought to honor that. I feel he felt obligated in some way to find redemption in the face of what was, and guilt for what he could'nt change. Jack was gone, but he left a message in the way the shirts were displayed and Ennis finally "got it".

Breaking it off with Cassie, putting numbers on the mailbox, and deciding to attend his daughter's wedding are all evidence that Ennis had seen the light and realized a higher level of exisistence, more open.  It all came together for him in Jack's closet.  He could finally shed his old ways and embrace love and life. He came to LF seeking to have Jack's ashes to spread on Brokeback..." like his wife said he wanted", but I feel Ennis had his own motivation for wanting them spread there of course. It was where he and Jack discovered love.

Mr. Twist denied him the ashes, but Mrs. Twist led him to something much more valuable than anything, the shirts, he could take them home, display them in his closet as if he finally could live with Jack after all. At least  in a synbolic way. In any case, he had  the spirit of Jack's love with him, and in the face of that, he could live a life free of the fear of love , finally accepting that not only was he loved  all along, but that he could love whom ever was left of  those he cherished. Jack taught him that imo. Thanx.

[atalley]

Gotta agree w/ Loreen & Aintfoolin on this one.  Ennis is a changed man.

[tpe]

Here we go back to the fact that at this point (during FC), Jack's end was already foreseen! That's sad! :\'(

As AP decided to finish their love story at that point, any presumption about their meeting in November is useless! But we can always hope in our hearts! As we know that their love is eternal...

In a way, the Dozy Embrace is a true valedictory.  It sums up Jack's life beautifully.  And I think it shows that whatever may have happened, the love was intact, IMO.

[tpe]

Breaking it off with Cassie, putting numbers on the mailbox, and deciding to attend his daughter's wedding are all evidence that Ennis had seen the light and realized a higher level of exisistence, more open.  It all came together for him in Jack's closet.  He could finally shed his old ways and embrace love and life. He came to LF seeking to have Jack's ashes to spread on Brokeback..." like his wife said he wanted", but I feel Ennis had his own motivation for wanting them spread there of course. It was where he and Jack discovered love.

I agree with this.  I think you summarized it well here...

[vedrana]

In a way, the Dozy Embrace is a true valedictory.  It sums up Jack's life beautifully.  And I think it shows that whatever may have happened, the love was intact, IMO.

Yes, even too sad to bare, but so masterfully done - to round the story in one embrace made of all - love, pain, confession, regrets, eternal hunger for each other, understanding, comfort ... and farewell!  :\'(

I know that AP needed a long time to write this short story, but she gave her best shot! 

[tpe]

Yes, even too sad to bare, but so masterfully done - to round the story in one embrace made of all - love, pain, confession, regrets, eternal hunger for each other, understanding, comfort ... and farewell!  :\'(

I know that AP needed a long time to write this short story, but she gave her best shot! 

I also felt that it was a farewell.  In the ss, we certainly get this feeling.    Yes, you do get the feeling that Jack was also worn out by the years of waiting, but you also get the feeling that at that point, he understood perfectly where each of them stood, and it was alright, even if it was far from perfect.

[FlwrChild]

I'm going to go slightly off topic for a moment to address the idea of Ennis as a changed man.


I agree completely with aintfoolin about how remarkable it is that Ennis called Lureen and then went to face Jack's parents in person. These were huge steps for him to take, and shows in its own way his devotion to Jack that he had to see the process through. As to how he was likely to live the rest of his life, I also think the lessons he learned most likely helped him to be a better father and to realize that his kids need his attention as well as his love. Making the sacrifice of his job to go to Junior's wedding was indication of that.

And I think that once he found the shirts, his understanding and recognition of what they had, and his acceptance of it, did indeed come full circle. But though that was something he could hold in his heart, I don't think it likely that it changed the way he lived his life outwardly. Ennis was always a very closed and private person. And I think the SS especially made it clear that for him, Jack was still the predominant force in his life and his heart. The opening passage says that Ennis is out of a job again after the ranch he worked at was sold. He was going to have to move in with his daughter til he found another job "yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream." Ennis has found peace with their relationship and his love for Jack, but as for moving on? I don't think that ever happened for Ennis.



Sorry for the OT. I guess at the end of the day, I believe that neither man's love ever wore out, perhaps just some of their endurance and, for Jack, some of his hope.

[vedrana]

I'm going to go slightly off topic for a moment to address the idea of Ennis as a changed man.


I agree completely with aintfoolin about how remarkable it is that Ennis called Lureen and then went to face Jack's parents in person. These were huge steps for him to take, and shows in its own way his devotion to Jack that he had to see the process through. As to how he was likely to live the rest of his life, I also think the lessons he learned most likely helped him to be a better father and to realize that his kids need his attention as well as his love. Making the sacrifice of his job to go to Junior's wedding was indication of that.

And I think that once he found the shirts, his understanding and recognition of what they had, and his acceptance of it, did indeed come full circle. But though that was something he could hold in his heart, I don't think it likely that it changed the way he lived his life outwardly. Ennis was always a very closed and private person. And I think the SS especially made it clear that for him, Jack was still the predominant force in his life and his heart. The opening passage says that Ennis is out of a job again after the ranch he worked at was sold. He was going to have to move in with his daughter til he found another job "yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream." Ennis has found peace with their relationship and his love for Jack, but as for moving on? I don't think that ever happened for Ennis.

FlwrChild ,

I am with you here. I even think that you put it so good - "the sacrifice". He knew that he had to go to the wedding. It was his duty, but he didn't jump into it like any devoted father or changed person. He hesitated for a while. Only pleading eyes of Junior which reminded him of his previous refusals of another pleading blue eyes, so he decided to go to wedding. But not as a spontaneous decision, rather "the sacrifice" he was willing to make!

I also believe that no major obvious change happened in Ennis.. but I think I wrote about it in some other thread... maybe I'm also

[vedrana]

I also felt that it was a farewell.  In the ss, we certainly get this feeling.    Yes, you do get the feeling that Jack was also worn out by the years of waiting, but you also get the feeling that at that point, he understood perfectly where each of them stood, and it was alright, even if it was far from perfect.

I also asked myself how come that Jack spoke up only in few occasions about his wish to live with Ennis, sometimes even not so openly. Was he afraid that Ennis would broke up or stop "fishing" with him??

I believe that Jack was also not so sure of himself, and not so open as he looked like. I think that he also had his own restrains even we don't see it very clearly...   If not, he would have done something about it in 20 years... or not? I don't know! 

[LuvJackNasty]

I also asked myself how come that Jack spoke up only in few occasions about his wish to live with Ennis, sometimes even not so openly. Was he afraid that Ennis would broke up or stop "fishing" with him??

I believe that Jack was also not so sure of himself, and not so open as he looked like. I think that he also had his own restrains even we don't see it very clearly...   If not, he would have done something about it in 20 years... or not? I don't know! 

I think that after the divorce fiasco, he was a little more cautious in bringing up. That was brutal and a turning point for Jack in realizing that it was in fact Ennis that was holding them back and not anyone else. Jack got a good hard smack of reality that day. If he had any restraints I think it was in not being too eager to set himself up for that kind of hurt again, which it totally understandable, imo.

[vedrana]

I think that after the divorce fiasco, he was a little more cautious in bringing up. That was brutal and a turning point for Jack in realizing that it was in fact Ennis that was holding them back and not anyone else. Jack got a good hard smack of reality that day. If he had any restraints I think it was in not being too eager to set himself up for that kind of hurt again, which it totally understandable, imo.

LJN ,

I dislike that scene a lot. It was heartbreaking not only for Jack but also for all of us who was hoping for a better ending of their beautiful relationship. And I think that you could be right here - the pain was too much for Jack :\'(

The question I asked in one other thread was: why Ennis said in 1967 after reunion: "I shouldn't let you out a my sight", referring to 1963 when two of them separated???

At that point (1967) he felt obligation to Alma &kids, and that was OK with me.But after divorce things were the same as 1963 - he was a free man to go. One time a month or two seeing his daughters was not a real excuse! He was a strange man indeed...

[LuvJackNasty]

LJN ,

I dislike that scene a lot. It was heartbreaking not only for Jack but also for all of us who was hoping for a better ending of their beautiful relationship. And I think that you could be right here - the pain was too much for Jack :\'(

The question I asked in one other thread was: why Ennis said in 1967 after reunion: "I shouldn't let you out a my sight", referring to 1963 when two of them separated???

At that point (1967) he felt obligation to Alma &kids, and that was OK with me.But after divorce things were the same as 1963 - he was a free man to go. One time a month or two seeing his daughters was not a real excuse! He was a strange man indeed...

That's what I always understood it to mean.

I think don't think Ennis was strange so much as tied to fear. As an adult, it's hard for me to view the Earl scene so I can only imagine what it did to a small child. And sometimes, we're so tied to our own self-defeat and fears that we are afraid to take a step or two forward. And I honestly think Ennis's intentions were "good" in that keeping Jack at arms length he was trying to protect him from that fate, for what it's worth.