Topic: Did Jack's Love "Wear Out"

[Brach]

I believe you are overstating the case, Brach. From the various interviews, and specifically the Charlie Rose interview, which I happened to have watched a week or so ago, I would say that the writers intended Jack's death as murder. At best, you can say the cause of death is ambiguous according to both the short story and the movie. I cannot recall any definitive information that points to an accident.

It is perfectly acceptable for each of us to decide what is the cause of death. I believe Ang Lee said in the same Charlie Rose interview that they deleted some of the tire iron scenes with exactly this purpose in mind. Perhaps you may find re-watching the interview would be helpful.



The timestamp 15:00 is the segment that discusses the ambiguity of the cause of death. It directly contradicts what you wrote above.

That segment does not contradict me, directly or indirectly. Lee says the film reflects ENNIS'S uncertainty. At about 15:30 Lee states: "The movie takes [Ennis's] point of view" (which you perhaps spun in your mind into "Ennis was right") And in the interview I saw on TV, Lee stated, "[The flash of Jack being beaten] was just what Ennis was feeling at the moment."

In an earlier version of the screenplay, the writers misinterpreted the meaning of ss narrative "So now he knew it had been the tire iron" and spun it into "and now we know it too." That gave rise to a dead-Jack-in-a-ditch scene. That scene and the "and now we know it too" were both deleted.
 
Whether or not private revelations are acceptable, the facts are that (1) BBM director Ang Lee stated that the flash was just what Ennis was feeling at the time, (2) the screenplay narrative, written by the very same writers you refer to, CONFIRMS that the flash is "ENNIS'S POV", and (3) the short story narrative states "Ennis didn't know about the ACCIDENT."

Ennis "didn't know which way it was, the tire iron or a real accident."

If --- as the director and the screenplay BOTH agree --- the flash was merely Ennis's POV, then how could anyone conclude from the film that Jack's death was not an accident? Without that flash (which is merely Ennis's POV, not news-at-11), there's not a shred of evidence in the film to put the idea into anyone's head that Jack was murdered.

[lancecowboy]

That segment does not contradict me, directly or indirectly. Lee says the film reflects ENNIS'S uncertainty. At about 15:30 Lee states: "The movie takes [Ennis's] point of view" (which you perhaps spun in your mind into "Ennis was right") And in the interview I saw on TV, Lee stated, "[The flash of Jack being beaten] was just what Ennis was feeling at the moment."

In an earlier version of the screenplay, the writers misinterpreted the meaning of ss narrative "So now he knew it had been the tire iron" and spun it into "and now we know it too." That gave rise to a dead-Jack-in-a-ditch scene. That scene and the "and now we know it too" were both deleted.
 
Whether or not private revelations are acceptable, the facts are that (1) BBM director Ang Lee stated that the flash was just what Ennis was feeling at the time, (2) the screenplay narrative, written by the very same writers you refer to, CONFIRMS that the flash is "ENNIS'S POV", and (3) the short story narrative states "Ennis didn't know about the ACCIDENT."

Ennis "didn't know which way it was, the tire iron or a real accident."

If --- as the director and the screenplay BOTH agree --- the flash was merely Ennis's POV, then how could anyone conclude from the film that Jack's death was not an accident? Without that flash (which is merely Ennis's POV, not news-at-11), there's not a shred of evidence in the film to put the idea into anyone's head that Jack was murdered.

You are right. Ang Lee said the scenes are from Ennis' point of view. However, at the same time, he also stated that Jack's death is not necessarily an accident. I recall from various sources that Annie Proulx and the others all stated that Jack's death was murder. I may be wrong in my recollection; it has been a while since my visit to the discussion threads related to this topic. If we really care about this, we can dig up the original references. I am sure they are in the threads somewhere.

Personally, I never cared much for the exact cause of death, because as far as Ennis was concerned, from his point of view, it was not the tire iron that killed Jack, but their love for each other. Jack's death, from whatever cause, was a pivotal moment that made Ennis realize that he took Jack for granted. It was this guilt that was the catalyst for his transformation in Lightning Flat's tiny closet. As far as Ennis was concerned, Jack's love never worn out...to bring us back to topic. Jack's love was hanging in the closet for twenty years, and embraced by Jack's Ma. In return, Ennis embraced it, and hung them in HIS closet, for as long as it takes.

[Brach]

Wow, the discussion here is amazing. So many gems.

I disagree with you Brach on two counts here.

Firstly, co-dependent is an apt description of Ennis and Jack. Their relationship is indeed dysfunctional in the sense that it is crippled by Ennis' homophobia. And Jack's complacent, albeit loving, acquiesce to his fear of sharing a sweet life together, is enabling Ennis' fear.

The relationship between the short story and the movie, in the words of the authors, is that of bones and flesh. The short story provided the bones and framework, while the movie was the flesh that gave it fulfillment. I have no doubt that Annie Proulx approved of the changes in the movie. For example, the motel scene was moved from its sequence in the short story. Ang Lee insisted on the movie's sequence of story telling, and Annie Proulx later admitted to it being more powerful in the moving picture medium. When the medium changes, the story has to adapt, or it losses the spirit. It is not the letter of the law that is important, but the spirit of it. Ang Lee et al, observed the spirit of Brokeback Mountain. Cassie and Randall were introduced to flesh out parts of the short story that was implied but never made explicit. The conversation between the spouses were also made more explicit to illustrate the other sides of the dysfunctional relationship that caused much pain in Loreen and Alma.

I agree with most of what you have stated here regarding Ennis' economic condition, except for the reason why he could not quit. I was told by others here that child-support was to continue until the children turned 19. It is clear that Ennis would consider it a duty that he could not break, to pay his child-support. As you so carefully outlined, Alma Jr and Jenny would not be 19 until after Jack's death. Ennis was obligated to hold his job and make his payments. "Earlier days", I think refers to the days before his divorce and child-support payments.

I also disagree with your interpretation of his refusal to Alma Jr's request to move in with him. That was a lifestyle consideration, not only of his own wish for solitude, which is undeniable, but also considering Cassie's involvement. I don't think there would be room enough for three people. Alma Jr knew this when she made the request, and Ennis (slow as he may be) probably knew this, too.

I think there is a misunderstanding regarding the term "outside help". To me, asking for time off, is not asking for help; it is asking for what is due. Accepting financial payments, is altogether a different story. Even accepting the use of Don Wroe's cabin, would not be considered accepting outside help, because it would be a token of friendship, indeed possibly exchange of favors. There is no doubt of their financial disparity, yet Jack never offered to buy Ennis another jacket (the one he wore in the movie for twenty years). We cannot infer too much, but there is little doubt as to the independent spirit of Ennis that is typical of all cowboys.

I have heard it referred to Ennis being 19 and Jack 20. But it is not important. As I said earlier, I believe the spirit of Brokeback Mountain is more important that the letter of the short story. It is my opinion, and you may not agree with it. It does not detract from our mutual enjoyment and admiration for a movie that is unique.

As for the assertion that "everything is ambiguous" and "license to indulge in speculation to disregards, contradicts", I have no idea what prompted such strong accusations. I merely asserted that the "ending" in the movie was left ambiguous. Indeed, the prologue in the short story is not so descriptive of Ennis outside of his dream and life in the trailer. There is no information regarding his continuing or lack of communication with his daughters, in-laws, etc. Great art always inspires imagination and it is permitted that we allow our imagination to soar. I agree that the flight path requires certain respect to the original and adhere to certain guidelines. However, an overly rigid adherence would be unreasonable, especially when predicated on the emphasis of a particular set of conditions that are but one among many possible variations.

I respect your emphasis on the poverty that Ennis must endure after Jack's death, but I respectfully disagree that your vision of it is the only possible one. Unless I am told otherwise by someone with the authority of Annie Proulx, I believe Ennis was so transformed by his visit to Lightning Flats, that his life thereafter was lived in honor of Jack, and not wasted as some might speculate in the ghostly dreams in a rundown trailer.

The act of putting those letters on the mailbox, the countenance of Ennis during Alma Jr. visit, all point to a very different Ennis from the prologue in the short story. Yet, Annie Proulx wrote to Heath Ledger to congratulate him, on his portrayal of Ennis as being more true to the character than she had written herself. If there is any doubt that the movie was more than the short story, then this is proof indeed that the author of the short story admitted to the creative genius of the man who gave us Ennis Del Mar on the silver screen that is superior to the Ennis Del Mar that is on paper.

Just my two cents, for what's it worth.

TPE was saying the ss and film are "co-dependent". As the term is normally understood, it would not apply. I'm not sure it would apply to the relationship between Jack and Ennis, either, even if we agree it's a dysfuntional relationship. While "codependency" is a term from popular psychology, I'm not going to twist it like a pretzel.

As I said, the film is a dramatic retelling  --- or in the words of one of the screenwriters, "an adaptation" ---  of the ss. Apart from a few minor differences introduced for dramatic effect, it remains faithful to the ss.

Right after the divorce, we read that "Ennis went back to ranch work, hired on here and there, not getting much ahead but glad enough to be around stock again, free to drop things, quit if he had to, and go into the mountains at short notice." The highlighted passage refers to earlier days AFTER THE DIVORCE when Ennis was "free to drop things, quit if he had to, and go into the mountains at short notice." Ennis was already obliged to pay child support.

I gave several reasons why Ennis could not afford to quit his job with Stoutamire. I know I mentioned child support. Ennis certainly did: "Jack, I got a work. Them earlier days I used a quit the jobs. You got a wife with money, a good job. You forget how it is bein broke all the time. You ever hear a child support? I been payin out for years and got more to go. Let me tell you, I can’t quit this one."
 
Interesting point about Cassie and lifestyle. I don't think she lived in Ennis's place or else she would not have been leaving notes at his place. Ennis explained to his daughter why she couldn't live with him. He told her, "You know I ain't set up for that." His daughter did not dispute this. Neither should we. If his place at that time was like the little trailer we saw, it wasn't big enough for two.

I've read every piece of fiction Proulx has published. Her stories tell it like it is, don't indulge happy endings or view life through rose colored glasses.

In her essay "Getting Movied", Proulx wrote "...the cast and the crew of this film, from the director down, had gotten into my mind and pulled out images...Especially did I feel this about Heath Ledger, who knew better than I how Ennis fet and thought..."
I don't see how anyone could be "more true to the character" than the person who created him. She also wrote that "in our time film can be more powerful than the written word."

In 1983 Ennis said he saw his daughters about once a month. So I don't find it remarkable that he would appear happy to see them. But the screenplay narrative for the scene in 1984 where Ennis's 19-year old daughter visits reads: "But his smile can't hide his regret and longing for the one thing he can't have, that he will never have." That screenplay narrative for the 1984 scene seems to anticipate the Ennis of the ss prologue ---Ennis as he is 15 years after Jack's death.

I didn't speculate that Ennis would be poor after Jack's death and living alone in a small trailer. It read it in the prologue which takes place 15+ years after Jack's death. The prologue likely inspired the scene of 19-year old Alma Jr. visiting Ennis at his trailer to invite him to her wedding.

[Brach]

You are right. Ang Lee said the scenes are from Ennis' point of view. However, at the same time, he also stated that Jack's death is not necessarily an accident. I recall from various sources that Annie Proulx and the others all stated that Jack's death was murder. I may be wrong in my recollection; it has been a while since my visit to the discussion threads related to this topic. If we really care about this, we can dig up the original references. I am sure they are in the threads somewhere.

Personally, I never cared much for the exact cause of death, because as far as Ennis was concerned, from his point of view, it was not the tire iron that killed Jack, but their love for each other. Jack's death, from whatever cause, was a pivotal moment that made Ennis realize that he took Jack for granted. It was this guilt that was the catalyst for his transformation in Lightning Flat's tiny closet. As far as Ennis was concerned, Jack's love never worn out...to bring us back to topic. Jack's love was hanging in the closet for twenty years, and embraced by Jack's Ma. In return, Ennis embraced it, and hung them in HIS closet, for as long as it takes.

There were many differing opinions among cast and crew about the cause of Jack's death in the film. Proulx said it looked ambiguous to her. It's not at all astonishing that some film viewers might think that the flash represented a "news-at-11" depiction of how Jack actually died, instead of a window into Ennis's thoughts, as the director intended. (I'm reminded of the way comic books depict the thoughts of a character with white bubbles leading from his head.) Unless you've read "Ennis didn't know about the accident...he didn't know which way it was, the tire iron or a real accident" in the ss, or "ENNIS'S POV" in the screenplay narrative, the flash is at best ambiguous, which does match Ennis's own uncertainty about the cause of Jack's death. I thought the flash was a rather heavy-handed way to depict Ennis's thoughts.

Ennis's reaction upon hearing that Jack had told his folks he was divorcing Lureen and moving back to the LF ranch with a ranch neighbor was not quite what you'd expect. He reasoned that Jack MUST have been found out: "So now he knew it had been the tire iron." At that moment, Ennis was convinced that it was Jack's own indiscretion that led to his death. Jack's death confirmed for Ennis the truth of what he had told Jack back in 1967, "Two guys livin together? No."

My view about the significance to Jack of the shirts he hid in his closet is that they were a token of how much Ennis meant to him when they left Brokeback Mountain back in 1963. But they are not like a shrine that Jack trotted out everytime he visited LF, which, according to Jack's mother, was only once a year, for a week. In later years Jack must have more or less forgotten about the shirts; otherwise, he would have kept them at his home in Childress. 

To Ennis, the shirts represent what he longs for, but cannot have. "He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack, but there was no real scent, only the memory of it, the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands.

[vedrana]

Brach  ,

even though I can agree on some of your explanations, I am a bit surprised by the way you enforce others to accept it. As tpe said -it is not a matter of biblical exegesis. We all have our interpretation of this beautiful love story.

The only thing that is common for all the Brokies is the strong impact that BBM had on us! I assume you are also deeply moved by it, otherwise you'd never know so much about it. And maybe, the way you want to present it to us, and to yourself is your own defence from the feelings that BBM woke up in you. 

Just thinking loud.... 

[babytammy7]

I can say it, I did say it, and I explained it very clearly.

You know all this, yet still try to believe Jack would never have forsaken Ennis for another. Perhaps there is some open space between what you know and what you try to believe.

Hello Brach. 

We are so off topic here and like other fellows said to you, we should discuss the time line and the SS and Ennis life in the right threads and not in this one. But well, this is a mod job, so I’m sure they’ll say a word soon.

I just want to tell you that you're showing so little respect for our opinions. We disagree or not, but we DO respect your opinions, and we don’t try to change your mind. But you are so trying to change our minds and you are writing your POV too and trying to make it the only and real truth for us to believe. You’ll say now that what you wrote is not your POV but what is in the SS, but let me tell you that if you are the only one here that agrees with your view of BBM, then maybe you could be wrong too. Like Barb said, unless we’re talking about a very specific and immovable facts, we have every right to think different from you, and we are gonna keep doing it, you like it or not. I just don’t think the way you talk people here, like you did in those bits I quoted above, is the right one. Please, respect our opinions and POV. It doesn’t matter if you believe in them or not, if you disagree or not, because you’re treating us like if we were stupid or something like that. Do you always talk like that when people don’t agree with you? You are not always the holder of the truth. We all see things in a different way and that should be respected. You are posting and posting again the very same things, saying the same words over and over again. What do you wanna get? That we all say that you’re right?

And lets not forget that, though the SS is the “mother” of BBM the film, we are discussing here the movie (the SS has another thread, like you well know), and Ang Lee said that his film was open to different interpretations. 

For us, BBM is a life-changing experience, and thousands of people out there see it and interpret it from their own experiences. For you it’s just  “a dramatic retelling”, like you say over and over. For us it’s more than that and we can see it, feel it and talk about it the way we feel is right for us. So if thousand of people out there think that Jack’s death was a murder (please, go and see LJ and the other forums) you should respect that, like that people respect that their fellows brokies think that Jack’s death was an accident. What you get if you prove right your POV? This just makes no sense to me. Why don’t you express your opinion without diminish or degrade other opinions? I have to tell you that I even could have agreed with you in some good points here if you’d expressed them with tolerance and respect for other POV’s.

How do you know that Jack didn’t held the shirts every time he visited LF? You say to us that we can't speculate but you do too. That fact that Jack didn’t take them with him doesn’t mean that he forgot about them. How can you be so sure about that? Is there any line in the SS that say that? In my opinion, and YES it’s only my opinion and I expect you to respect it like I do with yours, Jack never forgot about that and I can write a long post about it, but I’m not gonna do it here, because we all already said to you that we are off topic and there are other thread for it out there.

Please, let it be. And I also apologize if I've been rude. Sorry.

Thank you so much. 

[rlh03]

Boy, this thread has certainly gotten interesting and brought out a number of different and speculative POV's, which I think is great.  And I suggest that is how we should continue to look at them.  Both the ss and the film were, and remain, in point of fact, ambiguous (if I may be permitted the use of the word) on a number of issues.  And I think it important to remember this was by design.  And becomes part of the greatness of both.  Its wonderful that we can be spurred on to really think deeply about so many issues in the film.  But, as said, so many t's were not crossed, so many i's not dotted, purposefully so.  And all with the intent to make us think.  We should continue to do this, and remember that each point of view is just that, each sacred to each person, and to be allowed by all.

[tpe]

If you wonder what happened to Ennis 15 years after Jack’s death, or what was on Ennis’s mind during his 4 year hiatus from Jack, you’ll find it in the ss but not the film. If you wonder whether Jack had really had a thing going with a rancher’s wife down in Childress, read the ss. If you wonder if Jack death was a real accident, read the ss. If you wonder why the old man was unhappy with Jack, and why he wouldn’t give up his ashes, read the ss.

If you want to know trivia, such as the names of Lureen’s parents, the name of her son, the name of Alma Jr’s fiance, the name of the woman Ennis was “putting the blocks to”, or the color of Jack’s or Ennis’s hair and eyes, see the film.
 
But the film will not give you any insights into the written story that are not contained in the written story itself. The film is merely a dramatic retelling of the written story in words, pictures and music. Apart from minor alterations for dramatic effect, the film is not inconsistent with the written story.

On the contrary, the film expands on themes of the ss in a way that the ss never really developed or hinted at.  Just because the film uses details in the ss as a springboard for expansion does not mean that it does not contain insights beyond the ss.  This is a common mistake of people not well versed in Art Theory.
 

I can say it, I did say it, and I explained it very clearly. In interviews given after the release of the film, the screenwriters and directors stated that when Jack and Ennis meet they are both 19, contradicting the published screenplay which states that Jack was 20 and Ennis was about 20. If you correct the ages in the screenplay, then the year that Ennis gets the postcard, calls Lureen and visits Jack’s folks becomes 1983 instead of 1982. The screenplay gives correctly gives 1984 as the year when the Alma Jr. is 19 and comes to invite Ennis to her June wedding.  In both ss and screenplay, she would have turned 19 in late 1983.  There’s no reason for the film to invent timelines that are inconsistent with the ss.  In the final analysis, the timeline is far less vague than you want it to be.

I have already answered this "inconsistency" at the end of the last post.   This is moot/academic.  You can say it, but it does not make you any more correct than any of the dissenting opinions here.

The number of years since Alma Jr. had dated Troy is irrelevant to the timeline and implies nothing.  She said she had known Kurt for “about a year.” We don’t know how many boyfriends she had between Troy and Kurt, and apparently, neither did Ennis. Fathers don’t keep track of everyone their daughters used to date or when.

Implies nothing?  It clearly indicates that Ennis had no real contact with his daughter the past 2 years.

Where did you get the idea that Ennis was looking, or should look,  for a new job? If your boss says that you can’t take a vacation in August, that you have to defer it until November, do you automatically start looking for another job?  And where do you get the idea that Ennis “continued” to say no to Alma Jr. and “continued” to refuse help from Jack? Please list the incidents that demonstrate a continuing pattern of saying no to Alma Jr. and refusing help from Jack.

This is a non sequitur.  I simply ask: do you admit that Ennis increasingly found it difficult to find replacement jobs as he got older?  yes or no?

As Ennis observed, Jack was also deprived of another month's pay. If Ennis has offered a loan to Jack, would Jack have accepted it?

Probably.  He never had a problem with Ennis shooting the Elk for him, correct?  But again, this is a non sequitur.  And a question does not answer a question.

Ennis was complaining because Aguirre’s action DID in fact deprive BOTH of them of another month’s pay. I might be complaining about that, too, if I had expected my job to continue through the end of the summer. But my complaining would not imply that I needed a loan from a coworker. It was nice of Jack to anticipate that Ennis MIGHT be short of cash. But Ennis told him he didn’t need it, and surely Ennis knows better than you, Jack or whether he needed a loan from Jack.

Where in Heaven's name is all this leading too?  The fact is: Ennis needed the money and Jack didn't.  Period.

Why do you persist in trying to establish a PATTERN of behavior from an isolated incident with no probative value? Why can’t you simply accept Ennis’s very plausible, very reasonable explanation to his daughter for declining her request (or, if you insist, offer)? It is clear that even though he would like to have her stay with him, his living quarters are not set up to accommodate her and he’s not going to be home. Where is Alma Jr. supposed in sleep in that tiny, 1-room trailer with a single bed? Ennis said to his daughter, “You know I ain’t set up for that”, so evidently even she knows this. Why can’t you accept it?

As I said, I don't see a PATTERN of behavior (or even a suggestion of a pattern of behavior) that suggests that Ennis NEVER wanted ANY outside help to deal with his problems. And the incidents you cite show only that Ennis’s didn’t need Jack’s money and that Alma Jr. would have no place to sleep in Ennis’s tiny 1-room trailer with a single bed.

Frankly, I do not know what on earth you are talking about.  Pattern of behavior?  In any case, suppose I differ from you.  Am I callling your opinion wrong?  The answer is no.  Likewise, I, as moderator, require your civility to everyone here by not stating that their views are wrong and are pure "romantic speculation" or "spin", just because they differ from yours.  I do not request it.  I demand it.

I pointed out that film Jack gives the incorrect age of his boy on 9/24/1967. I also pointed out during the May 1983 trip, the ss gives incorrect ages for Alma Jr. and Jack’s boy.

But I don’t recall objecting to Jack’s age (in any source) at the time of his death. Lureen (in ALL sources) stated that he was "only 39 years old". That is consistent with ss details, such as “neither of them was 20” when they met at start of summer 1963, last trip in May (spring) 1983, next trip planned for August 1983, then deferred to November 1983, and Ennis didn’t know about the accident until his postcard to Jack saying that November (1983) still looked like the first chance came back stamped DECEASED.

Of course, if Jack was 20 when he met Ennis as stated in the published screenplay, instead of 19 as stated by the screenplay writers and director in interviews given after the film was released, then he could have died in 1981-1982 as one might infer from the published screenplay. But you must realize that published screenplay is differs from the film in many details.

The final cut of the film does not explicitly mention age.  The screenplay is distinct from film and the ss, of course.  But as lance said, this is already way out of topic.

Well, of course. It is, after all, a short story. But the story does not suffer because it fails to tell me the names of Lureen’s parents or the color of Jack’s eyes.

Nevertheless, some answers are better than others.

But do you wonder why so many of us here don't agree with you?  That is fine, of course.  I would not be so stupid or narrow-minded enough to claim that my opinion is better than your opinion.

But all this hairsplitting going nowhere has gone long enough.

Henceforth, let us limit ourselves to discussing the main topic of this thread: Did Jack's Love "Wear Out".

As moderator of this part of the forum, I will delete any post that:

1. persists in straying from the original topic.

2. shows any pig-headed disrespect for the opinions of others.  We can agree to disagree.  But remain civil.  I am warning everybody.

I am speaking as moderator.  

[LuvJackNasty]

But all this hairsplitting going nowhere has gone long enough.

Henceforth, let us limit ourselves to discussing the main topic of this thread: Did Jack's Love "Wear Out".

As moderator of this part of the forum, I will delete any post that:

1. persists in straying from the original topic.

2. shows any pig-headed disrespect for the opinions of others.  We can agree to disagree.  But remain civil.  I am warning everybody.

I am speaking as moderator.   

Yes it has and I will do the same. Since we're trotting out lines from the SS: "They were respectful of each other's opinions..." No one here is the "authority" on BBM and shouldn't assert themselves as such. Everyone adds their own unique feelings and interpretations to the movie/SS and for me, personally, they have only enhanced this experience.

[chameau]

As moderator of this part of the forum, I will delete any post that:

1. persists in straying from the original topic.

2. shows any pig-headed disrespect for the opinions of others.  We can agree to disagree.  But remain civil.  I am warning everybody.

I am speaking as moderator.  

I could only agree

[lancecowboy]

I won't belabor the other issues outside the scope of this thread.

The two shirts in Lightning Flats, however, are central to the movie, and Jack's love, so I believe it is right to respond a little.

Brach, you speculate and infer that Jack forgot about the shirts.

It is clear from the scene in the movie, and the description in the short story, that the two shirts are carefully hidden in the least conspicuous corner of the small closet. It is clear also that Jack's Ma knew about them. No matter how many times a year or how often Jack visits his boyhood home, it is clear to me that Jack treasured those two shirts, as well as the little wooden horse and cowboy that Ennis made for him. It was front and center on his desk, and it was the first object that Ennis touched, and held with tears in his eyes.

There is a very simple reason why Jack never took the shirts to Childress. He did not meet Loreen until years later, and the shirts are already in its place. No need to move them. Childress is not his home; he never felt belonged, and the shirts would be difficult to hide, and to explain when found. The blood stains especially.

Jack's Ma knew about the shirts, and kept them unwashed. Jack had a good relationship with his Ma as victims of any bullies would do.

Jack's love for Ennis was captured in those two shirts, from Ennis' point of view. That's was the impact of his visit to Lightning Flats. He finally understood what it meant to be loved - to be treasured and NEVER forgotten. If he didn't know it, he learned it then.

[FlwrChild]

Nice post, Andrew.


I hold the same opinion about whether or not Jack forgot about the shirts over the years. I see no reason to assume anything here, but could well imagine that he continued to sneak a peek over the years when visiting home. It's possible that he didn't but I'm inclined to think that he did. I feel the same way about why he would leave them in LF instead of taking them to Childress too. Kind of hard to explain that one to the wife, and why do so when you have a handy place to keep them where you have access to them if you should wish to?

As I have said before, I don't think that Jack's love wore out, though I think that he was pretty worn by the time he died (just as I don't necessarily think he was actually planning to move on, regardless of what he told his father - hence "I wish I knew how to quit you", not "That's it, I'm quitting you.") Just my opinion. And when you have so little in the way of tangible reminders of a great love, I would think that what you do have would stay in your mind. So yes, I think that Jack always remembered the two shirts, even if he wasn't thinking of them daily, and I believe that he always carried the spirit of what those shirts meant with him.


As to the figure on Jack's desk, I actually don't think that's the same one that Ennis was carving during their summer on Brokeback. I've watched the two scenes and the level and type of detail seemed different to me. More likely, this was a piece from his childhood that he'd kept, and he probably didn't have much need to use that desk when he visited so it wouldn't surprise me if he left some keepsakes there. Still, no way to be entirely sure so that's just my take.

[Brach]

*** Deleted by Moderator ***

[Tony]

   Dear Brach - as a new member, you may not be aware that when the moderators were pointing to another thread, you could resurrect that thread as active by just posting to it.  I am interested in your timelines and hope I can get that thread up, but, with all due respect, the moderators of this forum are not arbitrary, and are, themselves, some of the leading experts on BBM.  And deserve all of our respect.
   Back to this topic - it's always struck me how AP tossed off the day-to-day failures of Ennis and Jack, gaining for us, a credibility in them as real people, and then, punched us out with evidence of immortal love.  Just in that, her wild swing from the mundane to the sublime, there is the answer, IMO, that Jack's love never wore out.  Just his patience and hopes.

[tpe]

I appreciate your comment, Tony, and thank you.

Regarding your point, I think the wild swings (from mundane to sublime -- very interesting way of putting it), you refer to certainly add to the overall effect, in that we the viewers also feel a sort of weariness that we can also easily translate to Jack.  Although I agree with you that Jack's love never wore out, I can perhaps say that the constant battle wore him out -- emotionally as well as physically.  Weariness of heart is nonetheless distinct from weariness in love, won't you agree?

   

[Tony]

  Yes, Thomas, I would definitely agree, and that was a very fine and important distinction.  Weariness of heart.  That's been suffered by so many, who still never stopped loving.  Absolute bulls-eye!

[FlwrChild]

And I can tell you from personal experience that you can get very close to that "I wish I knew how to quit you" feeling and even think you're there and still somehow find a way to hold on. I choose to believe that this is what Jack did. Who knows what might have happened if he'd lived? Either way, up to the time that he died, I still think that love had a fighting chance in his heart.

[tpe]

  Yes, Thomas, I would definitely agree, and that was a very fine and important distinction.  Weariness of heart.  That's been suffered by so many, who still never stopped loving.  Absolute bulls-eye!

I do think that Jack's last look does show true weariness.  Which is why the originator of this thread certainly did good in bringing this up.  We can't be sure, of course.  But I would think that a possible move with Randall can still be interpreted as a falling out of love.  We can't be absolutely sure of our way of looking at this, but I think it is reasonable to say that affection and love for somebody doesn't go away all too easily, especially when you've been living a life of waiting for nearly 20 years...

[tpe]

And I can tell you from personal experience that you can get very close to that "I wish I knew how to quit you" feeling and even think you're there and still somehow find a way to hold on. I choose to believe that this is what Jack did. Who knows what might have happened if he'd lived? Either way, up to the time that he died, I still think that love had a fighting chance in his heart.

I think I know what you mean, flwrchild.  I think a lot of us here have in some form or another lived it.  People sometimes say that you can't be in and out of love at the same time.  But I think reality is much more complicated than just on and off.

[FlwrChild]

I think I know what you mean, flwrchild.  I think a lot of us here have in some form or another lived it.  People sometimes say that you can't be in and out of love at the same time.  But I think reality is much more complicated than just on and off.

That's for sure.


And say what you will about Randall but I don't think that he was ever a true contender for the top spot with Jack. I have no special basis for this, it's just what my gut says. Jack said during that last trip that he missed Ennis. And he was extraordinarily upset by hearing that August was cancelled. So I don't think that Randall held an elevated position going into that trip. And if Jack made some pronouncements shortly after the final confrontation, it is entirely possible that they were said in the heat of the moment or to achieve certain desired effects, especially with his father. I choose to wrap myself up in my Randall-didn't-matter blanket and stick with this assertion, as it is easier for my heart to handle.

[atalley]

I think the reason that I don't think that Randall meant that much to Jack was the look on his face when Randall propositioned him.  I got the feeling he wanted to be sick.  Certainly not a look of excitement.  But on the other hand, I have to question why his old man mentioned him to Ennis.  I think this is one of the biggest mysteries about BBM.

[tpe]

I think the reason that I don't think that Randall meant that much to Jack was the look on his face when Randall propositioned him.  I got the feeling he wanted to be sick.  Certainly not a look of excitement.  But on the other hand, I have to question why his old man mentioned him to Ennis.  I think this is one of the biggest mysteries about BBM.

Again, this is interesting for me.  Because I had not thought of him as looking sick.  My impression was that he was weighing the proposition against his love for Ennis, because Randall would be different from a prostitute or a partner in casual sex, because he happened to be Jack's neighbor and that the proposition sounded more "planned out" than just a casual tryst/encounter.  I though he was probably deciding whether this was something that would lead to trouble if Ennis ever found out.  But this was just my impression, and reading your comment made me see that such a POV is quite probable.

[lancecowboy]

I also felt Jack was unhappy with Randall on the bench. Although he was the one who initiated the chatting and friendship, I think he was caught off-guard by Randall's proposition to the cabin. He did not expect it and was unsure how to continue. He was also thinking, "Was I that obvious?" What gave me away? He was probably thinking of Ennis' question, "You ever get the feeling that everyone know?" The love with Ennis was far different from his liaison with Randall. One is love between equals, the other is sex with someone who has position, prestige and power that he felt he did not have. If he was not killed, Jack would find the relationship difficult to continue, lest of all in Lightning Flats with the old man, and the struggling poverty. I doubt Jack ever believed Randall would consent to leaving his nice setup to go ranching with him. The only possible reason Jack would mention Randall to the old man was to shut him up in a moment of anger, when the old man twist Jack's old bragging about Ennis into something like, "it never was going to happen is it, or he'd be here by now" Jack's Ma knew this and was compassionate to Ennis from beginning to end.

Jack was in love with Ennis from SNIT onwards just as Ennis was without knowing it until four years later in the reunion embrace. What Ennis denied continually, Jack embraced and never let go. Even after the final confrontation, he watched Ennis driving off, hurt and exhausted, but he'd still be back in November, if he could.

[babytammy7]

I just wrote this post some days ago and Thomas said to me that maybe we should talk about it in another thread, so I just came here and saw you all talking about Randall and Jack....so I was wondering if it'd be ok if I post again my old post here.... Let me know if I'm so off topic. 
 
I’ve always thought that it was Randall who did the first move. He was staring at Jack so intensely during the whole dinner, so Jack had to stare back.
Outside, it was Jack who started the talk, but I think he did it because it was so tense and awkward to be sitting there in total silence. Or maybe because he was curious and he wanted to know why Randall was staring at him like that, or maybe only because he was polite. In any case, Jack looked tired, like talking with Randall was not fun at all. In the script Randall reacted to Jack’s small talk with equal tired attitude: “as if the vanity of women is a tiresome subject”…..Then he did a move again. But we have to look at Jack’s face after Randall proposed the fishing trip. Jack was not excited about it, or even stunned or surprised because that man, almost unknown, wanted to spend time with him. Jack’s mind was so far away, because the mention of a cabin, mountains, fishing, sure made him think about Ennis. And that hurt. Sure, when they were separated, Jack tried to lessen his pain by distracting his mind, and now Randall was making him think about Ennis again. In that moment I bet that Jack felt so alone, so miserable; he missed Ennis like crazy, and maybe he was even thinking that, yeah, he’d like to go to that cabin up that mountain, but with Ennis. He maybe thought that it was Ennis who had to be there, taking that trip with him. He sure thought that it was ironic: he dying to go on more fishing trips so he could spend more time with Ennis, and now here that man proposing him to do what Ennis was unable to do (because of work, his girls or whatever).

Jack didn’t even reply in that moment….Sure he did it sometime after that scene, but I think he did it because he was feeling alone, he was desperate and he needed male company, sex, whatever…He was hurting and he needed to forget for a while, or at least to try….So I think that Randall was only a way to lessen his pain and to fulfil his sexual needs. But I also think that with time Randall became so much more. In my opinion, only in my opinion, Jack never loved Randall. He was only in love with Ennis. But after 4 years of sharing sex, and spending time together, talking, drinking, having diner with the women, I bet that they became good friends. In a deleted scene two mechanics observe how Randall leaves Jack’s truck. It was 1981. So still then they were seen each other. So I really think that it was a sexual affair, without feelings about love, but I’m sure they were good friends.

I’m only talking about Jack’s feelings, because we know he was in love with Ennis. But I can’t talk about Randall feelings, because we know so little about him….I don’t know if he liked Jack only as a friend or if, with time, he fell in love, or it was only sex for him.

I’ve always wondered how Randall knew that he could made that move on Jack, and also if some night after drinking good whiskey and having a rough time, Jack talked to Randall about Ennis, about his feelings….
If Lureen and LaShawn got closer, if they became friends too, or if Jack and Randall shared more than fishing trips, I mean, if they had a work relationship too or if they were close neighbours, I suppose that Randall had to hear about Jack’s trips to North, to spend days “fishing” with an old friend…and knowing that Jack was gay and the nature of their own fishing trips, I think that maybe he knew…. But I’m only speculating…

What do you think?

Thank you!!   

[atalley]

I also agree that Jack was thinking about Ennis when Randall propositioned him.  He had no desire to be w/ Randall, but I reckon Randall was better than no one.  Eventually, they must've been together; although I wonder for how long.  I also wonder if Randall is why he was murdered, but we'll never know that for sure. :\'(

[August7th]

Henceforth, let us limit ourselves to discussing the main topic of this thread: Did Jack's Love "Wear Out".

As moderator of this part of the forum, I will delete any post that:

1. persists in straying from the original topic.

2. shows any pig-headed disrespect for the opinions of others.  We can agree to disagree.  But remain civil.  I am warning everybody.

I am speaking as moderator. [/b] 

As the person who started this thread, I thank you.

[August7th]

Well, it looks like science backs up the notion that the love of Ennis and Jack COULD have lasted a lifetime and never worn out, despite everything. See the following that was published at CNN.com on January 4th.

*********************     

(CNN) -- Love's first blush fading? Lost that loving feeling? Love is not all around? Sick of cliches?

Take heart, scientists have discovered that people can have a love that lasts a lifetime.

Using brain scans, researchers at Stony Brook University in New York have discovered a small number of couples respond with as much passion after 20 years together as most people only do during the early throes of romance, Britain's Sunday Times newspaper reported.

The researchers scanned the brains of couples together for 20 years and compared them with results from new lovers, the Sunday Times said.

About 10 percent of the mature couples had the same chemical reactions when shown photographs of their loved ones as those just starting out.

Previous research has suggested that the first stages of romantic love fade within 15 months and after 10 years it has gone completely, the newspaper said.

"The findings go against the traditional view of romance -- that it drops off sharply in the first decade -- but we are sure it's real," said Arthur Aron, a psychologist at Stony Brook, told the Sunday Times.

[end]

[vedrana]

I also agree that Jack was thinking about Ennis when Randall propositioned him.  He had no desire to be w/ Randall, but I reckon Randall was better than no one.  Eventually, they must've been together; although I wonder for how long.  I also wonder if Randall is why he was murdered, but we'll never know that for sure. :\'(

If Jack was murdered, than Randall could be the most probable cause! 

[vedrana]

I suppose that Randall had to hear about Jack’s trips to North, to spend days “fishing” with an old friend…and knowing that Jack was gay and the nature of their own fishing trips, I think that maybe he knew…. But I’m only speculating…

What do you think?

Thank you!!   

If Randall and Jack became so close as you say, it is more that possible that Randall knew about Ennis.

Is it possible that Randall was jelaous of Ennis, and made Jack exposed to a hostile people... or I am aiming far too far?! 

[Tony]

  Tammy's post brought back my own memories of the scene where Randall comes on to Jack.  It seemed to be a careful, guarded form of "cruising", where Randall's gaydar said maybe Jack was a possibility due to Jack's open, easy-going nature.  Randall seemed....experienced.  Since I disagree with most, that Jack was not cruising the rodeo clown, never cruised, but only went to the safety of Mexico to let loose, it seemed to me this was a new experience for Jack.  What?  Somebody else up here does it, too?  He seemed surprised and edgy. Randall was the aggressor and Jack was both sensing the possible troubles, and interested.  Somewhat.
  Loreen, if it was a murder, there is a lot that points to the affair with Randall.  Jack had said the relationship with Randall's wife (which I believe was also going on) could get him killed.  He said that to Ennis.  Then, the move to replace Ennis with Randall as a companion at Lightning Flat is very quickly followed by his death.  I agree with you completely, that there seems to be a connection, IF it was a murder.
  Finally, no matter how long the affair went on, IMO, it was never much of a threat to the relationship, strained as that was, with Ennis.  Might have been a case of, you can't stand it or fix it, so, that leaves Randall as a pressure release.