Topic: Did Jack's Love "Wear Out"

[babytammy7]

I don’t think that Randall had something to do with Jack’s death, but it’s only my opinion, of course.

In a deleted scene two mechanics observe how Randall leaves Jack’s truck and walks to his own truck. After that those two mechanics look each other, knowing……
So Ang Lee tried, with that scene, let us know that other people in Texas knew what Jack “was doing”, or least, they suspected….
Those men could have beaten Randall too, but they got Jack. I don’t know if maybe they saw Jack more vulnerable, if they found Jack first, or if Jack had already “fame” like a queer, and Randall not….
But at the end of that deleted scene the camera focus in Jack’s truck, not Randall’s truck, like if those men were looking at Jack’s truck instead of Randall’s. Maybe they knew about Jack’s trips to Mexico. In the SS Jack had not only sex with hustlers in Mexico but also with other men during his work trips….

Anyway, Randall couldn’t have anything to do with Jack’s murder because it’d be like throwing stones to his own windows. I mean, if he spread the word about queers in Childress, then, after Jack’s death, he’d never find another men to have an affair with….Every gay guy would be scared like hell to make any move, and also the very same Randall couldn’t make any move, because those same men who killed Jack could figure him out.

Jack died because of an accident, or because of the deep homophobic in the rural US, but I don’t think that Randall is in the picture there. He could have been a victim too, but not a murderer. He was in the same team as Jack. There were so so so very few men there and then who dared to risk their lives to get what they needed…so they most likely protected to each other, or at least didn’t say a word another any of them. They were alone against the world. Who’d be that crazy to “sell” one of the few fellows like you to the “other team” who want you to disappear?

Just my take. And I hope that it makes sense.  Thank you. 

[vedrana]

Hm... Baby Tammy, 

Reasonable enough! 

I was jus trying to find somone to blame. In that way it would be easier to bear Jack's death  :\'(.... but you're right. Randall is most probably out of the question!

[tpe]

I also agree that Jack was thinking about Ennis when Randall propositioned him.  He had no desire to be w/ Randall, but I reckon Randall was better than no one.  Eventually, they must've been together; although I wonder for how long.  I also wonder if Randall is why he was murdered, but we'll never know that for sure. :\'(

I also thought that Jack was thinking of Ennis at that moment.  There was no question of Jack being worn out at this point, but I think that he many have been weighing in his mind the ramifications of accepting Randall's proposal.  Perhaps he was asking himself what Ennis would think if he ever found out...

[tpe]

As the person who started this thread, I thank you.

Thank you also, August.  I apologize if things got a bit confused/confusing the last few days...

[tpe]

Well, it looks like science backs up the notion that the love of Ennis and Jack COULD have lasted a lifetime and never worn out, despite everything. See the following that was published at CNN.com on January 4th.

*********************     

(CNN) -- Love's first blush fading? Lost that loving feeling? Love is not all around? Sick of cliches?

Take heart, scientists have discovered that people can have a love that lasts a lifetime.

Using brain scans, researchers at Stony Brook University in New York have discovered a small number of couples respond with as much passion after 20 years together as most people only do during the early throes of romance, Britain's Sunday Times newspaper reported.

The researchers scanned the brains of couples together for 20 years and compared them with results from new lovers, the Sunday Times said.

About 10 percent of the mature couples had the same chemical reactions when shown photographs of their loved ones as those just starting out.

Previous research has suggested that the first stages of romantic love fade within 15 months and after 10 years it has gone completely, the newspaper said.

"The findings go against the traditional view of romance -- that it drops off sharply in the first decade -- but we are sure it's real," said Arthur Aron, a psychologist at Stony Brook, told the Sunday Times.

[end]

Quite an interesting scientiofic study.   And it is certainly surprisingly relevant to the current discussion.  But I think this will not go unchallenged, as the majority of the older studies did suggest the opposite.  But personally, this particular study does make sense, even if it remains an empirical/statistical finding. 

 

[tpe]

  Tammy's post brought back my own memories of the scene where Randall comes on to Jack.  It seemed to be a careful, guarded form of "cruising", where Randall's gaydar said maybe Jack was a possibility due to Jack's open, easy-going nature.  Randall seemed....experienced.  Since I disagree with most, that Jack was not cruising the rodeo clown, never cruised, but only went to the safety of Mexico to let loose, it seemed to me this was a new experience for Jack.  What?  Somebody else up here does it, too?  He seemed surprised and edgy. Randall was the aggressor and Jack was both sensing the possible troubles, and interested.  Somewhat.
  Loreen, if it was a murder, there is a lot that points to the affair with Randall.  Jack had said the relationship with Randall's wife (which I believe was also going on) could get him killed.  He said that to Ennis.  Then, the move to replace Ennis with Randall as a companion at Lightning Flat is very quickly followed by his death.  I agree with you completely, that there seems to be a connection, IF it was a murder.
  Finally, no matter how long the affair went on, IMO, it was never much of a threat to the relationship, strained as that was, with Ennis.  Might have been a case of, you can't stand it or fix it, so, that leaves Randall as a pressure release.

A nice way of putting it, Tony.  Even I admit that if I weigh things in my mind, I would say that Randall is probably the "agressor" here, and Jack was simply appeared open to the possibilities.

So I understand better what some of you are pointing out -- that Jack may have been uncomfortable with the proposition.  Ennis was certainly on his mind.  Clearly, Jack had not given up on Ennis at that stage.

It is with some irony to therefore note that Jack may have considered Randall as some kind of "replacement" for the sweet life with Ennis.  Does this suggest that Jack's love was worn out, or did it suggest a passive giving in to agression?

[vedrana]

A nice way of putting it, Tony.  Even I admit that if I weigh things in my mind, I would say that Randall is probably the "agressor" here, and Jack was simply appeared open to the possibilities.

So I understand better what some of you are pointing out -- that Jack may have been uncomfortable with the proposition.  Ennis was certainly on his mind.  Clearly, Jack had not given up on Ennis at that stage.

It is with some irony to therefore note that Jack may have considered Randall as some kind of "replacement" for the sweet life with Ennis.  Does this suggest that Jack's love was worn out, or did it suggest a passive giving in to agression?

I don't think that Jack really considered him as a replacement, nor it was Jack's passive giving in to aggression. It was Jack's relationship with John Twist and his wish to have something palpable to offer to his old man. And Randall, who was his sex partner at the time, and who was not only near him, but ready to go for new things was the best choice to present to John Twist. But, as I said, Randall would never ever come to live to LF! No way!

[Tony]

  Dear Thomas, - no, I don't think Jack's plans with Randall meant his love for Ennis had worn out.  Maybe he was just making what he could of a difficult time.

    Loreen, your belief Randall would never go to Lightning Flat is the same as mine.  Unless he had fallen deeply in love with Jack and there's zero information pointing that way.  So where did Jack get that idea?  His father and wife suggested he lived in a dream world, but IMO, more like a dreamy world, based on optimism.  He must have had some belief he could talk Randall into it.  And we may have overlooked, what a bitter blow it may have been that even Randall wouldn't commit.  Poor Jack - and then soon thereafter, dead. And we don't know, as a fact, how.

[atalley]

Tammy...you made some really good points as to why it wouldn't be Randall who caused Jack's death.  Somehow, though, word got around that Jack Twist was "queer".

[tpe]

I don't think that Jack really considered him as a replacement, nor it was Jack's passive giving in to aggression. It was Jack's relationship with John Twist and his wish to have something palpable to offer to his old man. And Randall, who was his sex partner at the time, and who was not only near him, but ready to go for new things was the best choice to present to John Twist. But, as I said, Randall would never ever come to live to LF! No way!

I think a an old member (Patriot1) said once that we were being harsh on John Twist and that he just wanted some help on the ranch and that Jack was always disappointing him in this regard.  Your opinion seems to echo his opinion. 

Personally, I didn't really feel that Jack didn't particularly view Randall (or Ennis) as an offering to John Twist.  I have always thought that Jack cared enough for either one to bring them to the ranch to share a life with him.  So you see that I differ here in that I have a more sympathetic view of Randall.  And you know, I actually think that Randall would take Jack's offer -- no proof for this; this was just how I feel...

 

[tpe]

  Dear Thomas, - no, I don't think Jack's plans with Randall meant his love for Ennis had worn out.  Maybe he was just making what he could of a difficult time.

I do have the same feeling: that it was like making do...

    Loreen, your belief Randall would never go to Lightning Flat is the same as mine.  Unless he had fallen deeply in love with Jack and there's zero information pointing that way.  So where did Jack get that idea?  His father and wife suggested he lived in a dream world, but IMO, more like a dreamy world, based on optimism.  He must have had some belief he could talk Randall into it.  And we may have overlooked, what a bitter blow it may have been that even Randall wouldn't commit.  Poor Jack - and then soon thereafter, dead. And we don't know, as a fact, how.

As I told loreen, in the above post, I differ from both of you here.  It would have been interesting to see the deleted scene sometime in the near future where Randall and Jack and the mechanics to see if there was any indication that Randall did or did not agree.  Not that such a deleted scene would really rule out what you and loreen believe.  I think such a deleted scene would have thrown a bit more light on the relationship between Jack and Randall.

[rimasworld]

I do have the same feeling: that it was like making do...

As I told loreen, in the above post, I differ from both of you here.  It would have been interesting to see the deleted scene sometime in the near future where Randall and Jack and the mechanics to see if there was any indication that Randall did or did not agree.  Not that such a deleted scene would really rule out what you and loreen believe.  I think such a deleted scene would have thrown a bit more light on the relationship between Jack and Randall.

As the movie stands, I think Randall's character is too vague to really know what he was to Jack or how far he (Randall) really wanted it to go . We know he was married, probably had kids and made an offer to Jack that night. That's really all we see of Randall in the movie, so who knows?, maybe he was like a lot of men who wanted to experiment with sex outside marriage or maybe it went deeper. I guess that's the beauty of this movie, so many things left up to the viewer's imagination and interpretation.

[vedrana]

I think a an old member (Patriot1) said once that we were being harsh on John Twist and that he just wanted some help on the ranch and that Jack was always disappointing him in this regard.  Your opinion seems to echo his opinion. 

Personally, I didn't really feel that Jack didn't particularly view Randall (or Ennis) as an offering to John Twist.  I have always thought that Jack cared enough for either one to bring them to the ranch to share a life with him.  So you see that I differ here in that I have a more sympathetic view of Randall.  And you know, I actually think that Randall would take Jack's offer -- no proof for this; this was just how I feel...
 

I don't think that we're harsh on John Twist as I extremely dislike this character for treating Jack so badly all his life. But I see Jack wanting to have something to say,to offer something to his father after so many years of promising in vane that Ennis DelMar would come. Surely Jack wanted someone with him on the ranch, and maybe in that way he'd fulfill both of his wishes- to live with Ennis and to make John Twist finally satisfied with him.

But so many years had passed and after their final confrontation Jack didn't "offer" the same name. Why? That's not easy to know. What I am certain of, is that Randall, so fancy as he was, would never come to such a poor and depressive place as LF, to work and help John Twist on the farm?? I just don't see it.

[tpe]

As the movie stands, I think Randall's character is too vague to really know what he was to Jack or how far he (Randall) really wanted it to go . We know he was married, probably had kids and made an offer to Jack that night. That's really all we see of Randall in the movie, so who knows?, maybe he was like a lot of men who wanted to experiment with sex outside marriage or maybe it went deeper. I guess that's the beauty of this movie, so many things left up to the viewer's imagination and interpretation.

Exactly.  I would like to use the term "shadowy" when describing Randall.  Or enigmatic.  Perhaps this is all for the best.  Perhaps knowing more would have deprecated the love between Ennis and Jack a little bit.  In his own enigmatic way, Randall looms as the big uncertainly in our attempts to answer whether or not Jack's love wore out.

[tpe]

I don't think that we're harsh on John Twist as I extremely dislike this character for treating Jack so badly all his life. But I see Jack wanting to have something to say,to offer something to his father after so many years of promising in vane that Ennis DelMar would come. Surely Jack wanted someone with him on the ranch, and maybe in that way he'd fulfill both of his wishes- to live with Ennis and to make John Twist finally satisfied with him.

But so many years had passed and after their final confrontation Jack didn't "offer" the same name. Why? That's not easy to know. What I am certain of, is that Randall, so fancy as he was, would never come to such a poor and depressive place as LF, to work and help John Twist on the farm?? I just don't see it.

Yes, I personally feel that our dislike of John Twist is not unwarranted.  And I agree that aside from wanting a sweet life with Ennis, he also felt that they could be a great help to his father on the ranch.  For in spite of all the unpleasant memories (I sue here the ss a bit more), Jack did not hesiatate to go back home in order to help out, as we hear him say 2 times in the movie.

I think that in offering up a new name, Jack was trying to "move on", or perhaps was trying to move on.  We cannot be sure whether this was because his love had worn out or whether because he thought that he had to move on.  There is a significant distinction here, I hope.  Moving on doesn't necessarily mean "forget", although it is commonly used to indicate a wanting to move past a current impasse.

[vedrana]

Yes, I personally feel that our dislike of John Twist is not unwarranted.  And I agree that aside from wanting a sweet life with Ennis, he also felt that they could be a great help to his father on the ranch.  For in spite of all the unpleasant memories (I sue here the ss a bit more), Jack did not hesiatate to go back home in order to help out, as we hear him say 2 times in the movie.

I think that in offering up a new name, Jack was trying to "move on", or perhaps was trying to move on.  We cannot be sure whether this was because his love had worn out or whether because he thought that he had to move on.  There is a significant distinction here, I hope.  Moving on doesn't necessarily mean "forget", although it is commonly used to indicate a wanting to move past a current impasse.

I know what you mean about SS and John Twist and that really makes me angry each time I think of it. 

I don't accept that Jack was determined to move on and you think that he was.  But do yo really see Randall in LF?! I don't!

[myprivatejack]

As Rimasworld said yesterday,Randall's character is too vague as to know if he had been the real change in Jack's life.But even knowing this,maybe he really was the change Jack needed in that moment,it's to say;that he arrived just in the correct moment,not for himself,but for the circumstances around Jack...I think he needed,at least,an "impasse" because he and Ennis were walking in circles around this "unsatisfactory situation";he knew very well that his lover wasn't going to change his position and that,from the confrontation scene onwards,all what he was going to obtain were those "two high altitude f***s once or twice a year".
We take for granted that Ennis "saw the light" in that very moment,but I don't think Jack was so sure of this then... And,being a so need of love as he was,maybe he found in Randall the person who could give him a poor and almost ridiculous substitute for Ennis.I quote Thomas words: Moving on doesn't necessarily mean "forget", although it is commonly used to indicate a wanting to move past a current impasse. And it's sure that Jack wasn't going to forget neither Ennis,nor their love,even nor those f***s twice a year; but it's sure also that he was already a little fed up of waiting for so long,IMO.

[tpe]

I know what you mean about SS and John Twist and that really makes me angry each time I think of it. 

I don't accept that Jack was determined to move on and you think that he was.  But do yo really see Randall in LF?! I don't!

Well loreen: you don't have to.  And as fate would have it, they never did move in together. 

[tpe]

As Rimasworld said yesterday,Randall's character is too vague as to know if he had been the real change in Jack's life.But even knowing this,maybe he really was the change Jack needed in that moment,it's to say;that he arrived just in the correct moment,not for himself,but for the circumstances around Jack...I think he needed,at least,an "impasse" because he and Ennis were walking in circles around this "unsatisfactory situation";he knew very well that his lover wasn't going to change his position and that,from the confrontation scene onwards,all what he was going to obtain were those "two high altitude f***s once or twice a year".
We take for granted that Ennis "saw the light" in that very moment,but I don't think Jack was so sure of this then... And,being a so need of love as he was,maybe he found in Randall the person who could give him a poor and almost ridiculous substitute for Ennis.I quote Thomas words: Moving on doesn't necessarily mean "forget", although it is commonly used to indicate a wanting to move past a current impasse. And it's sure that Jack wasn't going to forget neither Ennis,nor their love,even nor those f***s twice a year; but it's sure also that he was already a little fed up of waiting for so long,IMO.

And even if they had moved in together -- Randall and Jack -- would it have been final?  Of course, we'll never know.  I there are so many possibilities.  And if we believe that Jack would not forget Ennis, then we are probably setting ourselves up into believing that any such arrangement between them was not going to last.  Perhaps it would only confirm Jack's need for Ennis -- doesn't this happen many times in real life when lovers push for a separation, only to reunite later?  This is not blind romanticism.  The reality is that with such couple, an on and off relationship seems to be the only way they know to reaffirm their love for each other against weariness and time.

I too don't think that Ennis saw the light precisely at that moment.  I think it was gradual, and that the full realization simply hit him in jack's bedroom in LF, when it was all too late.

[vedrana]

Well loreen: you don't have to.  And as fate would have it, they never did move in together. 

OMG, now that you've said it... I never give it a thought, cos I always see Jack with Ennis, but even with Randall, just not dead...  :\'(

[vedrana]

And even if they had moved in together -- Randall and Jack -- would it have been final?  Of course, we'll never know.  I there are so many possibilities.  And if we believe that Jack would not forget Ennis, then we are probably setting ourselves up into believing that any such arrangement between them was not going to last.  Perhaps it would only confirm Jack's need for Ennis -- doesn't this happen many times in real life when lovers push for a separation, only to reunite later?  This is not blind romanticism.  The reality is that with such couple, an on and off relationship seems to be the only way they know to reaffirm their love for each other against weariness and time.

I too don't think that Ennis saw the light precisely at that moment.  I think it was gradual, and that the full realization simply hit him in jack's bedroom in LF, when it was all too late.

I also believe so! And that moment is so difficult to watch, especially with words from SS - Ennis trying to smell Jack and mountain grass in it (not exact words, sorry) ... OMG! Thousands of other sad scenes from movies together are not as sad as this one! It cuts my heart like a sharp knife each time, and it's not getting better.

Especially dificult to accept is Ennis' instant, but late understanding of something which was for 20 long years so obvious in front of his eyes - Jack's LOVE!  :\'( :\'( :\'(

[tpe]

OMG, now that you've said it... I never give it a thought, cos I always see Jack with Ennis, but even with Randall, just not dead...  :\'(

Perhaps what wore out Jack the most was the inability to love the other to the fullest capacity. 

[tpe]

I also believe so! And that moment is so difficult to watch, especially with words from SS - Ennis trying to smell Jack and mountain grass in it (not exact words, sorry) ... OMG! Thousands of other sad scenes from movies together are not as sad as this one! It cuts my heart like a sharp knife each time, and it's not getting better.

Especially dificult to accept is Ennis' instant, but late understanding of something which was for 20 long years so obvious in front of his eyes - Jack's LOVE!  :\'( :\'( :\'(

I would like to think that when John Twist told Ennis about Jack wanting to move in with someone else, he didn't think any less of Jack because of it.  Perhaps it occured to him that he could have lost Jack in life, if not in death.  Perhaps it taught him to feel and appreciate Jack's pain.

[vedrana]

I would like to think that when John Twist told Ennis about Jack wanting to move in with someone else, he didn't think any less of Jack because of it.  Perhaps it occured to him that he could have lost Jack in life, if not in death.  Perhaps it taught him to feel and appreciate Jack's pain.

I said it once before and I believe it - after Jack died, no Earthly mud can pollute the memory of him in Ennis' eyes. Jack was his saint, his sacred memory, his only love in the fullest of that word. Ennis realised about love -his and Jack's. If Ennis had any doubts after John Twist's words, when he found the shirts - he just knew it!.

He appreciate Jack's pain cos now he feels it himself too. Not only the pain of fear, but the pain of the love he could not have any more. Dear Ennis, he lost so much for not being able to take olny one little step more. It is a huge burden for anyone's soul and a neverending regret.  :\'( :\'( :\'(

[tpe]

I said it once before and I believe it - after Jack died, no Earthly mud can pollute the memory of him in Ennis' eyes. Jack was his saint, his sacred memory, his only love in the fullest of that word. Ennis realised about love -his and Jack's. If Ennis had any doubts after John Twist's words, when he found the shirts - he just knew it!.

He appreciate Jack's pain cos now he feels it himself too. Not only the pain of fear, but the pain of the love he could not have any more. Dear Ennis, he lost so much for not being able to take olny one little step more. It is a huge burden for anyone's soul and a neverending regret.  :\'( :\'( :\'(

And I also think he appreciated it because he knew that he was the cause of it, and Jack would never have been driven to the extreme had it not been for his reticence. 

I also think that Jack's father mentioned all this in part to hurt Ennis -- or rebuke him.  Whatever the motivation, I don't think he really succeeded.  At that point, Ennis was already overcome with remorse, and the discovery of the shirts put an end to all doubt.

[vedrana]

And I also think he appreciated it because he knew that he was the cause of it, and Jack would never have been driven to the extreme had it not been for his reticence. 
I also think that Jack's father mentioned all this in part to hurt Ennis -- or rebuke him.  Whatever the motivation, I don't think he really succeeded.  At that point, Ennis was already overcome with remorse, and the discovery of the shirts put an end to all doubt.

This is a huge burden to be aware that you may be the reason for your beloved person to die in such a horrible way. I am here with Ennis 100% even he WAS guilty in a way, but had no power to turn himself into the person, only Jack death could create. But, his sorrow is so palpable, so deep and heavy, that no one can remain insensitive to that.

I liked Ennis in LF, even it is so anxious scene, that I rarely watch it. But he was the man we wanted him to be! Polite, but proud, sensitive, but firm... Love him there, even my heart is broken! And will always be each time I remember him in Jack's room...

[atalley]

I said it once before and I believe it - after Jack died, no Earthly mud can pollute the memory of him in Ennis' eyes. Jack was his saint, his sacred memory, his only love in the fullest of that word. Ennis realised about love -his and Jack's. If Ennis had any doubts after John Twist's words, when he found the shirts - he just knew it!.

He appreciate Jack's pain cos now he feels it himself too. Not only the pain of fear, but the pain of the love he could not have any more. Dear Ennis, he lost so much for not being able to take olny one little step more. It is a huge burden for anyone's soul and a neverending regret.  :\'( :\'( :\'(

Yes, Loreen, it's kind of like the "light bulb" turned on in his head when he found the shirts.  He understood what he meant to Jack.

[vedrana]

Yes, Loreen, it's kind of like the "light bulb" turned on in his head when he found the shirts.  He understood what he meant to Jack.

The "light bulb" turned on, as well as our immense sorrow!  :\'(

[tpe]

This is a huge burden to be aware that you may be the reason for your beloved person to die in such a horrible way. I am here with Ennis 100% even he WAS guilty in a way, but had no power to turn himself into the person, only Jack death could create. But, his sorrow is so palpable, so deep and heavy, that no one can remain insensitive to that.

I liked Ennis in LF, even it is so anxious scene, that I rarely watch it. But he was the man we wanted him to be! Polite, but proud, sensitive, but firm... Love him there, even my heart is broken! And will always be each time I remember him in Jack's room...

Even the ss does not explicitly blame Ennis, although there is more than a hint of a return to fear -- suggesting that Jack's death by the tire-iron was what was on Ennis's mind, and may not have been what really happened.   We get a greater sense of guilt in the movie, I believe...

I think Ennis was a stronger person in the LF scenes.  Had he beleievd that Jack's love had worn out, he might not have been that strong, perhaps?



 

[tpe]

Yes, Loreen, it's kind of like the "light bulb" turned on in his head when he found the shirts.  He understood what he meant to Jack.

And for the first time, Ennis realized just how much he loved Jack.