Topic: Dozy Embrace – Fact, Fantasy, Both

[jackster]

Everybody is moved by this scene, especially how it is magically transformed from Annie’s words to the screen in one of the most (some would say THE most) unforgettable visual couplings ever constructed in moviedom. There are several aspects of this scene that are intriguing to me. First, is the phenomena of memory itself - what's your best memory from 20 years ago? How accurately do you feel it would match someone else’s memory of the same emotional event? I believe trial lawyers say that eyewitness accounts of events are often the most misleading and undependable because two people seeing the same thing will describe it very differently. So here we're looking back through Jack's eyes at an event 20 years ago, during what we're told (by Lureen) to be the very happiest time in his life (summer on Brokeback), involving the most significant person in his life. A chance for his own hallucination or at least aggrandizement of events here? by Jack Twist – “Like most a Jack’s ideas . . . / where bluebirds sing and there's a whiskey spring” - Seems very possible to me, I’m not saying this is so mind you, but possible, given the very creative way that Annie has woven this tale and developed the mind of Jack Twist.

Secondly, there is the contridictions we're presented with between the SS and the movie regarding the nature of the DE (Dozy Embrace) events. From the SS . . .

What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger.

They had stood that way for a long time in front of the fire, its burning tossing ruddy chunks of light, the shadow of their bodies a single column against the rock. The minutes ticked by from the round watch in Ennis's pocket, from the sticks in the fire settling into coals. Stars bit through the wavy heat layers above the fire. Ennis's breath came slow and quiet, he hummed, rocked a little in the sparklight, and Jack leaned against the steady heartbeat, the vibrations of the humming like faint electricity and, standing, he fell into sleep that was not sleep but something else drowsy and tranced until Ennis, dredging up a rusty but still usable phrase from the childhood time before his mother died, said, "Time to hit the hay, cowboy. I got a go. Come on, you're sleepin on your feet like a horse," and gave Jack a shake, a push, and went off in the darkness. Jack heard his spurs tremble as he mounted, the words "See you tomorrow," and the horse's shuddering snort, grind of hoof on stone.

Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see or feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that. Let be, let be.

Annie’s said she struggled for a long time developing this incredible word picture where Jack remembers a recalcitrant but passionate Ennis (I believe she said her most difficult task of the entire story). But, in the movie, we see not one, not two, but three instances where Ennis kisses Jack, and not innocent little pecks, but passionate face-to-face, wet frontal assaults. The romantic SNIT; the knock your hat off post SNIT campsite frolic; and the super heated reunion in ‘67. In the movie Ennis had no trouble with a full frontal embrace and a real taste of Jack. The last two apparently instigated by Ennis. Ain’t no reins here.

The reunion kiss is described in the SS as a hot jolt, an almost out-of-body experience for Ennis. So I tend to think of it as possibly not “rational”, he was simply crazed with lust in that moment (almost like FNIT, huh?). But there are these other two pretty damn good kisses in the film. So what going on? The SS description of Jack’s reverie in the DE doesn’t actually match events portrayed in film. Is this discordance a problem? The difference between Jack’s memory of the DE (twenty years later) and the reality we’re shown? Do these contradictions make the DE less significant because we know Ennis’s passion not only allowed him, but also forced him to kiss Jack him face to face? And repeatedly, not only the several times we see, but by implication during other passionate moments (my interpretation).

Would the film Dozy Embrace be more powerful if it and the reunion kiss were the ONLY two moments of romantic passion we see in the film, as they are in the SS? Almost everyone wants to see more romance (me too), but I wonder if this is a case of “less is more”.

[tpe]

Thanks Jackster for starting this interesting topic.

Frankly, I thought that Ennis swinging between recklessness and recalcitrance was very realistic.   Admittedly, this attitude is based off of personal experience, having known one or two people in real life that actually actually behaved this way.  So I did appreciate seeing the other scenes showing a more passionate Ennis, because it seemed to demonstrate that a person who tried to keep control over himself most of the time would invariably lose control sometimes.

The recklessness also shows itself in less dramatic ways -- such as in Ennis's carelessness in covering up his activities during the fishing trips with Jack.  It shows the "split tendency" of such people better, IMO.

I hope this makes sense...
 

[Ranchand1]

    I don't see the contradictions much Jackster.  The DE happened in there first summer and yes there was that one drunken night of a reluctant face to face kiss before Jack was quickly turned over.  But we don't know when the DE happened.  Was it the first night after there first encounter.  Probably not since a man like Ennis would need more time and space to work through something like that.  <As we see him leave the next morning.>  But not to terribly long cause shortly after that were told and see the tent and trees were being shook all the time. SO the DE , when did it happen?  After all summer makein love?  Or after weeks or even a month, when Ennis got a grip and started letting go. The DE was well before all the other things like the kiss at his home or the hotel.  The memory seems solid.  Not to embellished.  Truthful to its point.  Sometimes what we remember or even describe is also better than what actually was.  And that, I think, is OK.

      Maybe Im way off.  Are you sayin the DE might not really a happen at all but was pieced together though the fog of memory and happenings over 20 years.  Either way it was what stayed with him.  Kept him commin back.  Till the bitter end of it all.

       Then again maybe I misunderstood what you was going on about and I need more splainin.  What were we talkin about again?

                                                                                                          

[vedrana]

I also see not enough evidence that DE could be a distorted or a false memory. 

I believe that human being can absolutely keep memory for 20 years especially the things that hit us at the time. And Jack was deeply moved by Ennis's hug and humming and all the love he felt coming from him during the DE.

The one thing that is also worthy of mentioning  is that the feeling of the hug, the emotions passed from Ennis to Jack were described just through Ennis. And Jack was the one who held on to this memory. Very interesting way of introducing the scene in SS, - one is remembering the embrace, but the embrace is given through the other one's emotions. So, if we get the explanation of the DE through Ennis, that means that it was the true memory! IMHO....

Here we come back to the mirroring of their lives, feelings, fears and destiny... Anything that had risen in one, found it's reflection in other. 

[tpe]

    Maybe Im way off.  Are you sayin the DE might not really a happen at all but was pieced together though the fog of memory and happenings over 20 years.  Either way it was what stayed with him.  Kept him commin back.  Till the bitter end of it all.

I also see not enough evidence that DE could be a distorted or a false memory. 

I believe that human being can absolutely keep memory for 20 years especially the things that hit us at the time. And Jack was deeply moved by Ennis's hug and humming and all the love he felt coming from him during the DE.

The one thing that is also worthy of mentioning  is that the feeling of the hug, the emotions passed from Ennis to Jack were described just through Ennis. And Jack was the one who held on to this memory. Very interesting way of introducing the scene in SS, - one is remembering the embrace, but the embrace is given through the other one's emotions. So, if we get the explanation of the DE through Ennis, that means that it was the true memory! IMHO....

Here we come back to the mirroring of their lives, feelings, fears and destiny... Anything that had risen in one, found it's reflection in other. 

Whether or not this is what Jackster had in mind, it is nonetheless a thought-provoking proposition.  Interesting comments, Ranchand1 and loreen.

[traveller]

Everybody is moved by this scene, especially how it is magically transformed from Annie’s words to the screen in one of the most (some would say THE most) unforgettable visual couplings ever constructed in moviedom. There are several aspects of this scene that are intriguing to me. First, is the phenomena of memory itself - what's your best memory from 20 years ago? How accurately do you feel it would match someone else’s memory of the same emotional event? I believe trial lawyers say that eyewitness accounts of events are often the most misleading and undependable because two people seeing the same thing will describe it very differently. So here we're looking back through Jack's eyes at an event 20 years ago, during what we're told (by Lureen) to be the very happiest time in his life (summer on Brokeback), involving the most significant person in his life. A chance for his own hallucination or at least aggrandizement of events here? by Jack Twist – “Like most a Jack’s ideas . . . / where bluebirds sing and there's a whiskey spring” - Seems very possible to me, I’m not saying this is so mind you, but possible, given the very creative way that Annie has woven this tale and developed the mind of Jack Twist.

Secondly, there is the contridictions we're presented with between the SS and the movie regarding the nature of the DE (Dozy Embrace) events. From the SS . . .

What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger.

They had stood that way for a long time in front of the fire, its burning tossing ruddy chunks of light, the shadow of their bodies a single column against the rock. The minutes ticked by from the round watch in Ennis's pocket, from the sticks in the fire settling into coals. Stars bit through the wavy heat layers above the fire. Ennis's breath came slow and quiet, he hummed, rocked a little in the sparklight, and Jack leaned against the steady heartbeat, the vibrations of the humming like faint electricity and, standing, he fell into sleep that was not sleep but something else drowsy and tranced until Ennis, dredging up a rusty but still usable phrase from the childhood time before his mother died, said, "Time to hit the hay, cowboy. I got a go. Come on, you're sleepin on your feet like a horse," and gave Jack a shake, a push, and went off in the darkness. Jack heard his spurs tremble as he mounted, the words "See you tomorrow," and the horse's shuddering snort, grind of hoof on stone.

Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see or feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that. Let be, let be.

Annie’s said she struggled for a long time developing this incredible word picture where Jack remembers a recalcitrant but passionate Ennis (I believe she said her most difficult task of the entire story). But, in the movie, we see not one, not two, but three instances where Ennis kisses Jack, and not innocent little pecks, but passionate face-to-face, wet frontal assaults. The romantic SNIT; the knock your hat off post SNIT campsite frolic; and the super heated reunion in ‘67. In the movie Ennis had no trouble with a full frontal embrace and a real taste of Jack. The last two apparently instigated by Ennis. Ain’t no reins here.

The reunion kiss is described in the SS as a hot jolt, an almost out-of-body experience for Ennis. So I tend to think of it as possibly not “rational”, he was simply crazed with lust in that moment (almost like FNIT, huh?). But there are these other two pretty damn good kisses in the film. So what going on? The SS description of Jack’s reverie in the DE doesn’t actually match events portrayed in film. Is this discordance a problem? The difference between Jack’s memory of the DE (twenty years later) and the reality we’re shown? Do these contradictions make the DE less significant because we know Ennis’s passion not only allowed him, but also forced him to kiss Jack him face to face? And repeatedly, not only the several times we see, but by implication during other passionate moments (my interpretation).

Would the film Dozy Embrace be more powerful if it and the reunion kiss were the ONLY two moments of romantic passion we see in the film, as they are in the SS? Almost everyone wants to see more romance (me too), but I wonder if this is a case of “less is more”.

I read the whole thread with greatest interest! Since first BBM watching can't stop thinking and analysing the DE scene, looking for the interpretation that would satisfy my  longing for understanding. Reading about "phenomena of memory itself" and about the discordance between Jack's memory of DE and the reality shown by film helps me to name the twinkles of insights I carry in my mind.
What if the interpretation of DE memory given in SS is not only the individual Jack's interpretation (which seems to be a fact) but also the  interpretation for the certain moment in time? Time of final confrontation. For me the significant power of DE shown us only just after killing FC comes from the difference between Jack's interpretation and my own understanding of their true relations. I like Jackster recalled other passionate and definitely face-to-face moment of intimacy. They certailny were not the only ones, there was plenty of others...not recovered to us.....invisible. DE scene hit me so painfully because of the dfference between my vision of them Two and Jack's memory of that. It hurts me so much every single minute I imagine how broken and suffering Jack had to be at that time to lose his faith in Ennis's love. I wrote "love" cos for me the idea of Ennis who 'would not embrace Jack face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held" means only one - not love at all.

[atalley]

I've gotta go w/ Ranchand1 & Loreen on this one.  I think that the Movie wasn't meant to mirror the SS, & that the DE was indeed a memory from their time on BB, & a wonderful memory at that.  It's one of my favorite scenes.

[tpe]

I read the whole thread with greatest interest! Since first BBM watching can't stop thinking and analysing the DE scene, looking for the interpretation that would satisfy my  longing for understanding. Reading about "phenomena of memory itself" and about the discordance between Jack's memory of DE and the reality shown by film helps me to name the twinkles of insights I carry in my mind.
What if the interpretation of DE memory given in SS is not only the individual Jack's interpretation (which seems to be a fact) but also the  interpretation for the certain moment in time? Time of final confrontation. For me the significant power of DE shown us only just after killing FC comes from the difference between Jack's interpretation and my own understanding of their true relations. I like Jackster recalled other passionate and definitely face-to-face moment of intimacy. They certailny were not the only ones, there was plenty of others...not recovered to us.....invisible. DE scene hit me so painfully because of the dfference between my vision of them Two and Jack's memory of that. It hurts me so much every single minute I imagine how broken and suffering Jack had to be at that time to lose his faith in Ennis's love. I wrote "love" cos for me the idea of Ennis who 'would not embrace Jack face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held" means only one - not love at all.

Hello skrzatka. 

If I understand you correctly, I would say that the memory of the DE could very well be a viewpoint at a certain moment in time -- during the crucial moment of the Last Confrontation.  I admit that to me, it is a valedictory -- a form of summing up everything that Jack felt about the relationship and about his love for Ennis.  But a valedictory may herald a new beginning as much as it signals an end to what has passed.  Perhaps the DE can be interpreted as a renewed commitment from Jack -- independent of whether or not he decides to move on with somebody else to attain his dream of the sweet life.  This might sound apardoxical, but I think perhaps Jack had come to realize that his love for Ennis was not subject to the fulfillment of his dream for the sweet life...

[tpe]

I've gotta go w/ Ranchand1 & Loreen on this one.  I think that the Movie wasn't meant to mirror the SS, & that the DE was indeed a memory from their time on BB, & a wonderful memory at that.  It's one of my favorite scenes.

Well, I think that in spirit, the movie and the ss were very close -- especially in the matter of the DE, don't you agree?  But yes, the movie is not meant simply as a mirror of the ss.  I must admit that the DE seen visually (as envisioned in the movie) truly adds insight to the words on the ss.

[jackster]

Thanks all for very interesting and thoughtful insights: thomas, ranchhand, loreen, skrzatka, atalley. Apologies for my poorly worded statement. I mixed up two issues, my main idea and question was to see if anyone felt that Annie Proulx - in the way she laid out events leading to, and even events subsequent to the mention of the DE, if she was setting the stage for making the DE possibly an invention or at least a substantial creation of Jack’s dreamy imagination. Unfortunately I also brought into the discussion the “variations” between film & SS Dozy Embrace and that kinda’ confused it. 

Annie makes a point of establishing Jack a “dreamer” wanting things to be so much better than they are, maybe better than they possibly could be. “Nothin never come to my hand the right way.” And I don’t mean with just Ennis, but with life in general. As his bitter father said – “Like most a Jack’s ideas it never come to pass”.

So I’m sitting here wondering, gee, did the DE actually come to pass? We never do see or hear of it from Ennis’s view, only Jacks. Maybe this was another a Jack’s dreams, or maybe a collection of all his dreams. When you read her passage here, it is so beautiful, so impossibly beautiful . . “the shadow of their bodies a single column against the rock. The minutes ticked by from the round watch in Ennis's pocket . . “ Oh man, don’t we all wish we had one moment in our lives like that, one that stuck with us for our entire lives?

Has she turned the entire summer of ’63 up on Brokeback into the Dozy Embrace? Not that it didn’t happen, just that it happened all summer long, and especially after SNIT. It wasn’t false, anymore than our memories of childhood are false. Huh?

[atalley]

This is one of the scenes that touches me the most.  I feel that Jack was indeed thinking back to the Summer of '63 one morning after breakfast, say, when he & Ennis shared this special moment in time.  I'm a hopeless romantic.

[rimasworld]

Well, I think that in spirit, the movie and the ss were very close -- especially in the matter of the DE, don't you agree?  But yes, the movie is not meant simply as a mirror of the ss.  I must admit that the DE seen visually (as envisioned in the movie) truly adds insight to the words on the ss.

Yes I think that it was worked so well in to the film, Jack remembering that right after the FC and watching Ennis drive away. It just gets me every time  :\'(

[tpe]

Thanks all for very interesting and thoughtful insights: thomas, ranchhand, loreen, skrzatka, atalley. Apologies for my poorly worded statement. I mixed up two issues, my main idea and question was to see if anyone felt that Annie Proulx - in the way she laid out events leading to, and even events subsequent to the mention of the DE, if she was setting the stage for making the DE possibly an invention or at least a substantial creation of Jack’s dreamy imagination. Unfortunately I also brought into the discussion the “variations” between film & SS Dozy Embrace and that kinda’ confused it. 

Annie makes a point of establishing Jack a “dreamer” wanting things to be so much better than they are, maybe better than they possibly could be. “Nothin never come to my hand the right way.” And I don’t mean with just Ennis, but with life in general. As his bitter father said – “Like most a Jack’s ideas it never come to pass”.

So I’m sitting here wondering, gee, did the DE actually come to pass? We never do see or hear of it from Ennis’s view, only Jacks. Maybe this was another a Jack’s dreams, or maybe a collection of all his dreams. When you read her passage here, it is so beautiful, so impossibly beautiful . . “the shadow of their bodies a single column against the rock. The minutes ticked by from the round watch in Ennis's pocket . . “ Oh man, don’t we all wish we had one moment in our lives like that, one that stuck with us for our entire lives?

Has she turned the entire summer of ’63 up on Brokeback into the Dozy Embrace? Not that it didn’t happen, just that it happened all summer long, and especially after SNIT. It wasn’t false, anymore than our memories of childhood are false. Huh?

You grought up an interesting point Jacster.  Let's assume that DE did indeed happen.  Did Ennis remember it at all as something special?   Did it even register the way it did with Jack?

My suspicion is that it didn't.  Not that this reflected bad on Ennis.   I think that Ennis just reached out to a distant memory as a matter of fact: they way we take certain childhood rituals for granted.  But I think Jack saw this memory of Ennis's mom as something special -- it signified that the love that Ennis had for Jack was deep and genuine, going beyond all physical desire, as in the love of a mother for her child.

[FlwrChild]

Interesting point Thomas. And I suspect you're right that Ennis didn't hold onto this memory in the same way that Jack did because Jack was clinging to that sense of a deeper, love-filled relationship during his lifetime and Ennis was still running from the idea at that time.

One can wonder just how many of those avoided memories Ennis may have conjured up after Jack was gone and he'd come to embrace their relationship as love.

[traveller]

You grought up an interesting point Jacster.  Let's assume that DE did indeed happen.  Did Ennis remember it at all as something special?   Did it even register the way it did with Jack?

My suspicion is that it didn't.  Not that this reflected bad on Ennis.   I think that Ennis just reached out to a distant memory as a matter of fact: they way we take certain childhood rituals for granted.  But I think Jack saw this memory of Ennis's mom as something special -- it signified that the love that Ennis had for Jack was deep and genuine, going beyond all physical desire, as in the love of a mother for her child.

Interesting point Thomas. And I suspect  you're right that Ennis didn't hold onto this memory in the same way that Jack did because Jack was clinging to that sense of a deeper, love-filled relationship during his lifetime and Ennis was still running from the idea at that time.

One can wonder just how many of those avoided memories Ennis may have conjured up after Jack was gone and he'd come to embrace their relationship as love.

I was also thinking over Ennis's memory of DE. My understanding of them both tells me that maybe Jack remembered DE as something so special not only because DE was for him the sign of Ennis's deep and true love but also because in DE Ennis gave Jack what he himself probably had never had - tenderness and artless love, "the love of a mother for her child".
Looking at myself, I have to say that the memories of receiving are much stronger, than the memories of giving.

[FlwrChild]

Oh traveller  That was beautiful. And I'm looking at Ennis in a whole new way in this scene now too.

And I think you're right. The memories of receving are much stronger than the memories of giving because it can mean so much to receive those gifts.

[traveller]

Thank you very much, FlwrChild

Yes   - "it can mean so much to receive those gifts". I am so happy Jack could appreciate Ennis's gift to some degree but at the same time feel so much pain because of his knowledge that Ennis wouldn't embrace him so gently and artlessly face to face "because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he hold" :\'( :\'(
I will never believe it's true.

[FlwrChild]

Well remember he wasn't feeling pain about that. AP said:

..."Nothing marred it, even the knowledge..."


And Jack certainly knows now that what was in Ennis' heart was love all along. I think he knew it even then.

[trekfan]

my fave scene from the movie  (aside from the SNIT and reunion nuzzle

[tpe]

Interesting point Thomas. And I suspect you're right that Ennis didn't hold onto this memory in the same way that Jack did because Jack was clinging to that sense of a deeper, love-filled relationship during his lifetime and Ennis was still running from the idea at that time.

One can wonder just how many of those avoided memories Ennis may have conjured up after Jack was gone and he'd come to embrace their relationship as love.

I wonder whether the fact that Ennis's mom dies when Ennis was quite young had anything to say about the DE.  It is telling that Ennis reaches out to a memory of a mother he lost at so critical a time in his life...

[tpe]

I was also thinking over Ennis's memory of DE. My understanding of them both tells me that maybe Jack remembered DE as something so special not only because DE was for him the sign of Ennis's deep and true love but also because in DE Ennis gave Jack what he himself probably had never had - tenderness and artless love, "the love of a mother for her child".
Looking at myself, I have to say that the memories of receiving are much stronger, than the memories of giving.

Excellent.  THis ties beautifully with my last post:  Ennis gave Jack what he himself probably had never had, which is the love of a mother who died when Ennis probably needed her most...

[tpe]

my fave scene from the movie  (aside from the SNIT and reunion nuzzle

Certainly my favorite -- real or imagined. 

[myprivatejack]

Certainly my favorite -- real or imagined. 

I'm turning around this or SNIT as my favorites.And I think it's Jack imagination,or remembrance,of something real applied in a moment when all this past happiness with a probable future ahead had turned into despair and lack of hope in their future.

[tpe]

I'm turning around this or SNIT as my favorites.And I think it's Jack imagination,or remembrance,of something real applied in a moment when all this past happiness with a probable future ahead had turned into despair and lack of hope in their future.

I think what differentiates DE from anything else is that is went way beyond love and desire.  It really was about peace and contentment.  Had Jack died there and then in 63 (assuming that it did indeed happen), I suspect that he wouldn't have minded too much.

If DE was not real, it nonetheless embodied what Jack treasured most about thier love.

[FlwrChild]

Oh that's beautifully put Thomas.

And I would have to agree that this would be one of those "If I died right now I'd die happy" moments for Jack. Everything that their time on the mountain meant to him summed up in one embrace. That is indeed a moment worth holding in your memory.

[myprivatejack]

I think what differentiates DE from anything else is that is went way beyond love and desire.  It really was about peace and contentment.  Had Jack died there and then in 63 (assuming that it did indeed happen), I suspect that he wouldn't have minded too much.

If DE was not real, it nonetheless embodied what Jack treasured most about thier love.

Oh that's beautifully put Thomas.

And I would have to agree that this would be one of those "If I died right now I'd die happy" moments for Jack. Everything that their time on the mountain meant to him summed up in one embrace. That is indeed a moment worth holding in your memory.

Wonderful posts,Thomas and Barb ¡  Yes,it's one of these moments that means the highest point of a love in the imagination of a lover.And it's the same if it's one's imagination of what could be a perfect symbol of what love is,or a memory of what one felt as this in that very moment.

[traveller]

Beautiful posts
I like when we share our different visions and insights but what I really LOVE is when your insights confirm and justify my vision of them two

[atalley]

Very good posts, guys!  The DE warms my heart & is a sign of their special bond.  I remember before the movie came out, that this was the pic that touched me the most.  After seeing the movie, I find it 2nd only to SNIT.

[holyfool]

          - maybe cowboy delmar wanted to do "it" standing up???,  like a quickie before he went off to the sheep.

[tpe]

Thanks friends.

I had wondered sometimes whether it would have been better for them to have ended their lives in the summer of 63. 

Jackster had noted whether DE was something like a dream.  But sometimes, I wonder whether it was their life after the summer of 63 that was a dream...