Topic: From friendship to intimacy - how convinced were you?

[lancecowboy]

Always interesting to revisit old topics.

Thinking it over, I can see the perspective for Jack being no more "experienced" than Ennis in gay sex, even though the short story said he rode more than bulls in 'em rodeos. Whether he was bragging or not, he may be more of a sinner than Ennis in straying with women but he may be equally inexperienced with gay sex. His awkward approach to the rodeo clown, his nervousness with Randolph, his resorting to prostitutes in Mexico, all point to someone isolated from other gay men, as well as his own sexuality.

Perhaps, that is why their love and passion transcend everything...there is nothing like the first time, especially when it is for both of them.

FNIT might have been a one-of after a drunken night, but SNIT consciously unlocked the relationship forever, and the key to unlocking the gate to Ennis' castle. After that, there was no turning back. The first time is always magical.

[rimasworld]

Always interesting to revisit old topics.

Thinking it over, I can see the perspective for Jack being no more "experienced" than Ennis in gay sex, even though the short story said he rode more than bulls in 'em rodeos. Whether he was bragging or not, he may be more of a sinner than Ennis in straying with women but he may be equally inexperienced with gay sex. His awkward approach to the rodeo clown, his nervousness with Randolph, his resorting to prostitutes in Mexico, all point to someone isolated from other gay men, as well as his own sexuality.

Perhaps, that is why their love and passion transcend everything...there is nothing like the first time, especially when it is for both of them.

FNIT might have been a one-of after a drunken night, but SNIT consciously unlocked the relationship forever, and the key to unlocking the gate to Ennis' castle. After that, there was no turning back. The first time is always magical.

I tend to see it that way too. Their growing friendship opened the door sort of naturally since they were both attracted to each other. When Jack came down from the mountain and went back to the rodeo and the real world, we always see him alone. I don't think he had any friends and his encounters were probably chance like they were with Lureen and she made the first move. I think the men probably did the same. Jack got shot down with the clown that one time and he seemed very inexperienced to me in that scene. And with Randall, we again see him sort of make the first move making Jack seem not so sure of himself in that area all those years later.

[tpe]

Always interesting to revisit old topics.

Thinking it over, I can see the perspective for Jack being no more "experienced" than Ennis in gay sex, even though the short story said he rode more than bulls in 'em rodeos. Whether he was bragging or not, he may be more of a sinner than Ennis in straying with women but he may be equally inexperienced with gay sex. His awkward approach to the rodeo clown, his nervousness with Randolph, his resorting to prostitutes in Mexico, all point to someone isolated from other gay men, as well as his own sexuality.

Perhaps, that is why their love and passion transcend everything...there is nothing like the first time, especially when it is for both of them.

FNIT might have been a one-of after a drunken night, but SNIT consciously unlocked the relationship forever, and the key to unlocking the gate to Ennis' castle. After that, there was no turning back. The first time is always magical.

The fact that SNIT followed after FNIT is very convincing to me.  IN a way, both scenes reference a "first time" of sorts.  Each one is of a slightly different aspect of their love/attraction.

[myprivatejack]

The fact that SNIT followed after FNIT is very convincing to me.  IN a way, both scenes reference a "first time" of sorts.  Each one is of a slightly different aspect of their love/attraction.

"First time" of sexual intercourse and "first time" of feeling love?.One the explosion,the other the consolidation.One the sexual attraction,the other the love acceptance.One the result of a drunken night,the other the result of many nights when they missed each other.And so on...

[lancecowboy]

"First time" of sexual intercourse and "first time" of feeling love?.One the explosion,the other the consolidation.One the sexual attraction,the other the love acceptance.One the result of a drunken night,the other the result of many nights when they missed each other.And so on...

Good point mpj.

It raises the question, can someone fall in love before having sex? Can someone fall in love without having sex ever?

I think both are magical when it happens for the first time. And both can happen independent of each other, but the real magic happens when love is enhanced by passion, as the saying goes, love is when friendship caught on fire, by the passion of sexual intercourse.

So, there is magic, and then there is MAGIC.

That's why the lucky few stays together forever.

[FlwrChild]

Well put. 

And I would say yes, it's possible to fall in love without having sex. And like you I think they can happen independently. For Jack and Ennis, I actually believe they were already in love when FNIT took place. It was an explosion of passion, yes but not, I think, a random or coincidental one. I think Jack already knew how he felt about Ennis (though I'm sure he didn't know just how deep and enduring it would prove to be) and Ennis was invested in Jack for more than just sex, though he would continue to try to convince himself for many years that this aspect of their relationship was nothing more than a 'thing that came over them.'

[myprivatejack]

I think all kinds of relationships can exist and each one of them is according to each couple circumstances; because human nature is complex,even if narrow.minded persons insist in telling us that everything must happen in a clear and concrete way always.That's not true; life is not a straight line, but an ellipse.You don't know when and where it begins nor when and where it'll finish.
As Ennis and Jack regards,I also believe that they were already in love when FNIT happenned,even if hidden under a cover of sexual desire-and even if,of course,none of them knew for sure what was its name-.But it's also true,IMO,that this night means the physical concretion of this desire,something that was forging between them for many weeks and that the concrete circumstances of it made "explode".For this reason,I said in my former post that SNIT was the consolidation,and half acceptance,of love,not only sexual desire.

[tpe]

It raises the question, can someone fall in love before having sex? Can someone fall in love without having sex ever?

I think one can fall in love with an ideal -- something that dissipates when the first touch is encountered and the ideal becomes reality. 

Still, FNIT and SNIT are certainly not "ideal".  Both are body and spirit.

[ethan]

Some very interesting observations. To me, it is very convincing. The build-up leading to FNIT is very reasonable to me, especially with the help of alcohol. FNIT actually led me to believe that Ennis is not an absolute heterosexual on the continuum of sexuality (but this is another topic for discussion) because he took charge of it. Other than his witness of homophobia in his childhood, we don't know for sure what Ennis had experienced both sexually and mentally prior to coming to the mountain.

All those little details as pointed out by others between Ennis and Jack were set out to FNIT when the opportunity came. Human interaction is very interesting. My guess was that Jack was getting all the signals of attraction and he made a move. Ennis, the other side of coin, just could not resist the temptation.

When sex was done, the reality sunk in. Was it simply because of physical need or attraction? I think SNIT further confirmed it was latter.  LC said it well.

FNIT might have been a one-of after a drunken night, but SNIT consciously unlocked the relationship forever, and the key to unlocking the gate to Ennis' castle. After that, there was no turning back. The first time is always magical.