Topic: Timing of Dozy Embrace in the movie

[ethan]

I just read some posts regarding favorite scenes. In particular, MPJ's post really inspired me this question about the timing of DE appeared in the movie.

For me, DE is a kind of explanation of why they firstly became good friends,and after,fell in love with each other; they had found someone not only to share their daily tasks with,but also a part of their respective lives. They gave each other all the affection,company and understanding they hadn't could find at their own homes-with the exception of their mothers-;it was as if they were kids once more,as if they had recovered the lost time to develop these feelings.And,for this same reason,in this scene Ennis gives Jack a bit of this lost affection he found in his mother when a child;by behaving with him as his mother did,he became the lover now instead of the loved he was then.I don't know if this makes sense...

I completely agree and love how MPJ interprets the scene. It is one of my favorite scenes as well. It was shown in the movie as a flashback. I am curious to know why DE was cut and placed much later in the movie as a flash back. Was it a flashback in Jack's mind after their argument with Ennis's departure or a purpose for the viewer to confirm their relationship?

Would it have made any difference if DE was placed early on in the movie when they were up in the mountain?

All I can think of is that DE appeared later does make me an emotional wreck. It always gets me no matter when I see the movie.  :\'(

[LauraLovesLedger]

I just read some posts regarding favorite scenes. In particular, MPJ's post really inspired me this question about the timing of DE appeared in the movie.

I completely agree and love how MPJ interprets the scene. It is one of my favorite scenes as well. It was shown in the movie as a flashback. I am curious to know why DE was cut and placed much later in the movie as a flash back. Was it a flashback in Jack's mind after their argument with Ennis's departure or a purpose for the viewer to confirm their relationship?

Would it have made any difference if DE was placed early on in the movie when they were up in the mountain?

All I can think of is that DE appeared later does make me an emotional wreck. It always gets me no matter when I see the movie.  :\'(

Same here, honey.  It's making an emotional wreck of me right now.  Just the thought...

It is definitely one of my favourite scenes, too, Ethan...no, I will have to take back those words, it is surely my favourite, period, and I'm so glad you've given it its own thread. 

To answer your first question, I think it's fairly safe to assume that it was indeed a flashback in Jack's mind, but showing the memory of the dozy embrace did also have that added benefit of confirming their relationship to the viewer, like you suggest.  In the short story, after they fight about August, the next paragraph has Jack reflecting on the dozy embrace they shared all those years ago.  "What Jack remembered and craved in a  way he could  neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on  Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close,  the silent  embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

And,  "Later,  that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the  single moment  of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult  lives."

To answer your second question, it's certainly my opinion that if DE was placed earlier on in the movie, when they were actually at Brokeback, that yes, it would indeed make a difference, and I think quite a considerable one at that.  I definitely think that, although it would still be very romantic and sweet, the impact would nonetheless be somewhat lessened.  It is so much more powerful, at least to me, to see Jack remembering this precious memory, and yearning for that "ancient time on the mountain" with all his heart.  The retrospective quality delivers a much more poignant punch, I think.  The feelings of nostalgia and yen that fill Jack make it so much more moving than if I was seeing the DE at the time it took place.

Sighhhh.  I feel some hefty PBS coming on...

Actually, seeing as it's been quite a while since my last viewing, I've been feeling a strong need to break out the DVD once again, and I've decided to watch it in its entirety tomorrow...and yet, the PBS has already hit, just thinking about DE.   (Or perhaps that should be Pre Brokeback Syndrome has hit?  )  In any case, I thank you, Ethan for priming me before tomorrow's viewing.    




Long live the Dozy Embrace.   

[jackster]

ethan:

Good Q. Of course, the DE appears in the movie at about the same place it appears in the SS, I believe all by design. Your question is interesting because it ties in directly with much of the discussion in Lobsel-Vith's thread on a BBM psych report and maybe with my poorly worded thread on "DE Fact or Fiction". And as Annie has said this is the passage she struggled with the most, spent a lot of time crafting it, I suspect Ang did too, so I think it is worthy of all kinds of analysis. My own feeling is that having it appear late gives it much more power, almost an infinite amount of power to define many aspects of the entire story/film. Because it is a Memory, not real time, it really gives us a window into Jack's mind (and I think this is the way Annie intended it). That is why I posed my question, given Jacks ability to aggrandize portions his real world - did the DE even take place? Maybe he just imagined it. The DE is Jack talking, most of the story is Ennis.

But back to you question. By being at the end, or at least at the end of Jack - it is the last time we see Jack as a living person - this really cements in our brains Jack's image and his view of the relationship. This is what he wanted and hoped for, "till the day he died" (to paraphrase Lureen). In the SS the next thing is Ennis learning of the accident, in the film it's the short scene with Cassie at the diner. So Jack's death comes virtually immediately following this brief, but so very powerful, glimpse into his mind.

So like LauraLedger, I think if the DE had come earlier in the film we'd probably not remember it. It's this mixing of hot & cold, sweet & sour, the fight & the embrace, the embrace & Jack's death, this is what makes it so very powerful.

This is why, IMHO, it has such emotional appeal, it's so beautiful, impossibly beautiful. It's the way we want life, the way we want their lives (Jack & Ennis) and we want our own lives. And yet life in it's complexity is rarely this beautiful.

[Mars]

I just read some posts regarding favorite scenes. In particular, MPJ's post really inspired me this question about the timing of DE appeared in the movie.

I completely agree and love how MPJ interprets the scene. It is one of my favorite scenes as well. It was shown in the movie as a flashback. I am curious to know why DE was cut and placed much later in the movie as a flash back. Was it a flashback in Jack's mind after their argument with Ennis's departure or a purpose for the viewer to confirm their relationship?

Would it have made any difference if DE was placed early on in the movie when they were up in the mountain?

All I can think of is that DE appeared later does make me an emotional wreck. It always gets me no matter when I see the movie.  :\'(

It's my preferred scene as well and you explained your emotions admirably dear Ethan

[myprivatejack]

I just read some posts regarding favorite scenes. In particular, MPJ's post really inspired me this question about the timing of DE appeared in the movie.

I completely agree and love how MPJ interprets the scene. It is one of my favorite scenes as well. It was shown in the movie as a flashback. I am curious to know why DE was cut and placed much later in the movie as a flash back. Was it a flashback in Jack's mind after their argument with Ennis's departure or a purpose for the viewer to confirm their relationship?

Would it have made any difference if DE was placed early on in the movie when they were up in the mountain?

All I can think of is that DE appeared later does make me an emotional wreck. It always gets me no matter when I see the movie.  :\'(

Above all,thank you so much,Ethan,for taking my post as an inspiration    ;I can't explain myself well in English,you know,but I usually say that ,if not well said,is fully felt.Maybe when one feels deeply something,one is able to talk about it better and giving it a greater meaning,no matter grammar or speech faults...
Coming back to your questions,1.-I think that,obviously,it's a flashback in Jack's mind to make us compare all his hopes and comfort about their relationship,that was in its beginning,with this last scene between the two of them,when Jack had lost all these hopes and we can declare,when he didn't feel comfortable with all his long years of waiting for nothing.Sorry,Laura,but I'm going to quote your own quote: "What Jack remembered and craved in a  way he could  neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on  Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close,  the silent  embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger." "Later,  that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the  single moment  of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult  lives." .IMO this is a symbol that what only Jack had in this moment are memories of the happy times on the mountain,where they could be themselves and when Ennis still could give him a little of hope in a future in common. :\'(
2.-For these reasons and what,specially,Jackster has said,I don't think that this scene would have had the same strength being put in the beginning of the movie;I don't think either that we forgot it,but it had been one of these tender and nice scenes that move us,nothing else(nothing else?).If we like it and remember it,is precisely for this brutal difference between their two moments together and between how they felt themselves,that makes us shatter and move us with their tragedy.
IMO,Ang Lee,in his absolute mastery,has known very well how to put every scene to produce a greater effect on us;because all of us have some memory of some sweet moments that became bitter sooner or later,because all of us have some "pending subject"in love or in any other aspect,that makes us identify ourselves with what Jack feels by seeing Ennis running away from him-for the last time...-.

[myprivatejack]

Ah,Laura¡ Good luck for tomorrow's watching ¡ And,please,don't break the DVD,it's not its fault...I really hope PBS doesn't attack you so brutally as it has attacked me this last time;I have said these days that maybe watching it spoken in Spanish has made me identified more with everything ¡.

[ethan]

Thanks all to your insights. I love them.

Laura - first  to you. The quote from SS is just beautiful and powerful. Thanks for pointing it out. Compared to SNIT, the words to describe DE as "shared and sexless hunger" are just perfect. IMHO, Jack had fallen in love with Ennis and the memory kept Jack going all years especially after four years. "Enjoy" your viewing and I am sure there will some great insights from it.

jackster - thank you. Interesting to know that this is the passage that AP struggled the most and I can imagine the difficulty in the movie. I do agree with you that "memory" does give a greater impact since it has sustained all the years and did not fade like you said in the post which I bolded. In particular, the DE was the memory "flashing" in Jack's mind. As Laura pointed out, I think it is safe to say that DE did take place. Now I wonder what DE means to Ennis or his state of mind when it happened? That would be an entirely different thread of discussion of course.

Because it is a Memory, not real time, it really gives us a window into Jack's mind (and I think this is the way Annie intended it). That is why I posed my question, given Jacks ability to aggrandize portions his real world - did the DE even take place? Maybe he just imagined it. The DE is Jack talking, most of the story is Ennis.

But back to you question. By being at the end, or at least at the end of Jack - it is the last time we see Jack as a living person - this really cements in our brains Jack's image and his view of the relationship. This is what he wanted and hoped for, "till the day he died" (to paraphrase Lureen). In the SS the next thing is Ennis learning of the accident, in the film it's the short scene with Cassie at the diner. So Jack's death comes virtually immediately following this brief, but so very powerful, glimpse into his mind.

So like LauraLedger, I think if the DE had come earlier in the film we'd probably not remember it. It's this mixing of hot & cold, sweet & sour, the fight & the embrace, the embrace & Jack's death, this is what makes it so very powerful.

Great analysis from you and Laura. As story telling, it did add dramatic effect. As the audience, we kept hammered by the magnitude of their relationship. DE is one of them and it got heavier when Ennis discovered the shirts.

This is why, IMHO, it has such emotional appeal, it's so beautiful, impossibly beautiful. It's the way we want life, the way we want their lives (Jack & Ennis) and we want our own lives. And yet life in it's complexity is rarely this beautiful.

Beautifully said and yes that is the way I want for Ennis and Jack (especially Ennis taking the initiative to hold Jack).

[ethan]

MPJ, thank you for the inspiration.  You explain so well in English especially the part - "when one feels deeply something,one is able to talk about it better and giving it a greater meaning,no matter grammar or speech faults..."

1.-I think that,obviously,it's a flashback in Jack's mind to make us compare all his hopes and comfort about their relationship,that was in its beginning,with this last scene between the two of them,when Jack had lost all these hopes and we can declare,when he didn't feel comfortable with all his long years of waiting for nothing.

Great explanation. I love the comparison of hopes - such a sharp contrast. I did hate to think that Jack has lost all the hope though.

what Jack feels by seeing Ennis running away from him-for the last time...-.

Awesome. Ennis came to Jack in DE at the beginning as memory and Ennis ran away from Jack for the last time as reality.  The thought just crushed me. :\'(

[Tony]

  Ethan, what a gift this is, to bring us back to those incredibly moving scenes - thank-you, for letting us go there again.

    Here's my own look-over:  in the SS, although Jack loved the memory of the DE, it had also become a grievance, because he saw it as Ennis being afraid to accept him, face-to-face, as Jack, in his arms.  The key words about the memory itself are "later" and "solidified".  So he had a memory of a real event, but kept it tied to a grievance.  In the film, there's a different grievance.  Ennis has accepted him as Jack, his lover, but will not commit to a full life together, on a daily basis.
  The film uses that grievance to show the startling transformation of Jack's face from the sleepy contentment of the DE, to the jarring anger of their last meet-up.  It seems to be used to explain why Jack was going to make his move, and try for someone else to move up to Lightning Flat.  He had come to the end of his resources, in holding out hope.
  By the way, if I can extend the timing of the DE in the movie, to the following flow of events, some have said a year passed before his death.  But AP has the last meet-up, where he remembers the DE,  in May, which is still Spring, and Jack's father refers to Jack as changing from Ennis to someone else, in Spring, so the intensity of that anger-gaze suggests immediate resolution.
  The screenplay notes seem to have errors suggesting a longer period of time, before the postcard was returned.  But it all seems to fit better, that Jack made his move in May/June, resentful of the loss of the August meet-up, and dies before November (which Ennis had off, and which would allow for Ennis to go to the Twist farm, after the death).
  The timing of remembering the DE in the film, then, was, IMO, used to fade into the harsh gaze, and then a cascade of events.  If that is true, the memory of the DE, may well have triggered the attempt by Jack to set himself and Ennis free of each other, which led, maybe, to his death.
  It was raw beauty, yes, but it may have been used in the film as the beginning of the end.  Jack's hopes had run out. (But I think, had he lived, he would have dropped his grievance and gone back, to try, yet again).

[traveller]

What a important and emotionally shooting thread. So hard to read.
Watching the flashback scene first time smashed me into the milion of pieces. Accepting the scene as the expresion of ultimate loss of Jack's hopes would kill me, so I didn't it. I desperately clung to the glimmer of hope which for me was "...see you tomorrow.." Ennis's goodbye after DE. These three words become for me the core of flashback scene. The same as Tony, I truly believe "had Jack lived, he would have dropped his grievance and gone back, to try, yet again.

No matter how angry or hopeless Jack was after FC, no matter he probably get in affair with Randal cos he was forever bound with Ennis. He would come back if he only had enough time to calm down.

Crying again  :\'(

[tpe]

I just read some posts regarding favorite scenes. In particular, MPJ's post really inspired me this question about the timing of DE appeared in the movie.

I completely agree and love how MPJ interprets the scene. It is one of my favorite scenes as well. It was shown in the movie as a flashback. I am curious to know why DE was cut and placed much later in the movie as a flash back. Was it a flashback in Jack's mind after their argument with Ennis's departure or a purpose for the viewer to confirm their relationship?

Would it have made any difference if DE was placed early on in the movie when they were up in the mountain?

All I can think of is that DE appeared later does make me an emotional wreck. It always gets me no matter when I see the movie.  :\'(

I think it's placing close to the end of their time together is very significant, and the effect would not have been the same had it been shown earlier -- in the summer of 63.  Of course, Proulx also withholds mentioning it until the very last scene of Ennis and Jack together, as a form of valedictory for Jack.  It serves to summarize a lifetime of feeeling, and the significance of the moment is amplified when Jack remembers it against the backdrop of the Last Confrontation. 

The contrast between the Last Confrontation and the DE is so powerful that either scene would lose without the other.   Taken together, I feel that it is the most powerful moment in the entire film/ss.

[jackster]

Some added thoughts and questions here about this most moving scene . . .

Annie is a master of timing, the way she literally starts the story in the last scene. The second sentence of the SS . . . "The shirts hanging on a nail shudder slightly in the draft." Not until the very end of the story do we discover the mountainous significance of those shirts, (oh, THOSE shirts!) and she pulls us right back to the beginning, nothing ended, nothing begun, - pure genius.

Does she also set up the DE, though much less directly, with her first description of the sex on the mountain " . . . no lack of noises, but saying not a goddam word . . ." we later read of an embrace which is described as silent and sexless, but of which she says “Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment . . .”

“Later, that . . . solidified” - is this Jack coalescing (solidifying) many events, many embraces, many shared moments, into an 'Ennis picture' in his head, his dream of what it was like being with Ennis, what he wanted it to be like. The perfect Ennis. Or maybe it is just a onetime event that he later makes the touchstone of his relationship with Ennis.

Whut do you think?

[traveller]

You can't remember all moments and embraces, so you choose one and hold it deep in your mind as the single sign of all happiness you have been through. Neither remembering onetime event, nor sex would not be enough for Jack to wait for Ennis the whole life.

So, I am close to "Ennis picture" interpretation. Thanks for such a inspiring and moving subject of serious thought.

[Tony]

“Later, that . . . solidified” - is this Jack coalescing (solidifying) many events, many embraces, many shared moments, into an 'Ennis picture' in his head, his dream of what it was like being with Ennis, what he wanted it to be like. The perfect Ennis. Or maybe it is just a onetime event that he later makes the touchstone of his relationship with Ennis.
Whut do you think?

   Could have been both.  The interesting thing about the SS version and the film version is that, as completely satisfying as they were, while occurring, they each have a grievance attached to them by Jack.  In the SS, that Ennis would not admit it was him, Jack, that he held.  In the film, that there was never any commitment to make a full life together.
  Clearly, Ennis had grievances, too, as in what showed up at the melt-down, during the last meet-up: the lingering suspicion that this was, for Jack, a sexual affair and not something tied to Ennis only.
  And, of course, we know, or we ought to know, both of their grievances were wrong.  So many proofs given, each to the other, of transcending love, and yet, no complete trust because life had mangled each a separate way, never fully understood by either.
 Awful, that the DE, those enchanted moments of gentle, virile, and yet non-sexual love, did not become the proof that was needed.

[atalley]

Thank you Tony for your wonderful insights.

[Tony]

  Atalley - thanks.  If I woulda known that's what it takes to get smooched around here, I'd a been doing it more often! 

[ethan]

   Here's my own look-over:  in the SS, although Jack loved the memory of the DE, it had also become a grievance, because he saw it as Ennis being afraid to accept him, face-to-face, as Jack, in his arms.  The key words about the memory itself are "later" and "solidified".  So he had a memory of a real event, but kept it tied to a grievance.  In the film, there's a different grievance.  Ennis has accepted him as Jack, his lover, but will not commit to a full life together, on a daily basis.
  The film uses that grievance to show the startling transformation of Jack's face from the sleepy contentment of the DE, to the jarring anger of their last meet-up.  It seems to be used to explain why Jack was going to make his move, and try for someone else to move up to Lightning Flat.  He had come to the end of his resources, in holding out hope.
  By the way, if I can extend the timing of the DE in the movie, to the following flow of events, some have said a year passed before his death.  But AP has the last meet-up, where he remembers the DE,  in May, which is still Spring, and Jack's father refers to Jack as changing from Ennis to someone else, in Spring, so the intensity of that anger-gaze suggests immediate resolution.
  The screenplay notes seem to have errors suggesting a longer period of time, before the postcard was returned.  But it all seems to fit better, that Jack made his move in May/June, resentful of the loss of the August meet-up, and dies before November (which Ennis had off, and which would allow for Ennis to go to the Twist farm, after the death).
  The timing of remembering the DE in the film, then, was, IMO, used to fade into the harsh gaze, and then a cascade of events.  If that is true, the memory of the DE, may well have triggered the attempt by Jack to set himself and Ennis free of each other, which led, maybe, to his death.
  It was raw beauty, yes, but it may have been used in the film as the beginning of the end.  Jack's hopes had run out. (But I think, had he lived, he would have dropped his grievance and gone back, to try, yet again).

Tony, thank you for providing your takes on this. I love your take on this and really enjoy reading them.

Your description of grievance is very intriguing both in the SS and movie. From the movie (giving the timing of DE appeared) I have always thought if possible, the memory of DE actually kept Jack going. What had happened in DE during their time in BBM has elevated their relationship. Had they not reunited 4 years later, the memory of DE could well turn to a grievance. If I can even try to guess Jack's mind and his confusion, how could a man who did something in DE with such tenderness and love is afraid to accept him face-to-face? Of course, DE is only in Jack's view. We will never know for sure if what Ennis did was just a one-shot thing.

The grievance part makes perfect sense right after their last fishing trip as you have described to fade into later part of the movie.

Thank you again for your wonderful insights.

[ethan]

What a important and emotionally shooting thread. So hard to read.
Watching the flashback scene first time smashed me into the milion of pieces. Accepting the scene as the expresion of ultimate loss of Jack's hopes would kill me, so I didn't it. I desperately clung to the glimmer of hope which for me was "...see you tomorrow.." Ennis's goodbye after DE. These three words become for me the core of flashback scene. The same as Tony, I truly believe "had Jack lived, he would have dropped his grievance and gone back, to try, yet again.

No matter how angry or hopeless Jack was after FC, no matter he probably get in affair with Randal cos he was forever bound with Ennis. He would come back if he only had enough time to calm down.

Crying again  :\'(

  I know how hard it is. Dozy embrace gets me every single time with the sharp contrast of their conflict and love. I love how "see you tomorrow" becomes the key of flaskback scene. It means so much and signifies Jack's hope. Thank you.

[ethan]

Some added thoughts and questions here about this most moving scene . . .

Annie is a master of timing, the way she literally starts the story in the last scene. The second sentence of the SS . . . "The shirts hanging on a nail shudder slightly in the draft." Not until the very end of the story do we discover the mountainous significance of those shirts, (oh, THOSE shirts!) and she pulls us right back to the beginning, nothing ended, nothing begun, - pure genius.

Does she also set up the DE, though much less directly, with her first description of the sex on the mountain " . . . no lack of noises, but saying not a goddam word . . ." we later read of an embrace which is described as silent and sexless, but of which she says “Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment . . .”

“Later, that . . . solidified” - is this Jack coalescing (solidifying) many events, many embraces, many shared moments, into an 'Ennis picture' in his head, his dream of what it was like being with Ennis, what he wanted it to be like. The perfect Ennis. Or maybe it is just a onetime event that he later makes the touchstone of his relationship with Ennis.

Whut do you think?

jackster, I dropped my jaw just by reading your observation and even appreciated more with this masterpiece with her SS. The way how she told the story is really powerful and add so many dimensions to Jack and Ennis's relationship.

What you identified is just brilliant. Thank you. Through her words, we can really immerse and realize the progress of their love.

[ethan]

I think it's placing close to the end of their time together is very significant, and the effect would not have been the same had it been shown earlier -- in the summer of 63.  Of course, Proulx also withholds mentioning it until the very last scene of Ennis and Jack together, as a form of valedictory for Jack.  It serves to summarize a lifetime of feeeling, and the significance of the moment is amplified when Jack remembers it against the backdrop of the Last Confrontation. 

I could not agree more. Thanks, tpe.

[tpe]

I know how hard it is. Dozy embrace gets me every single time with the sharp contrast of their conflict and love. I love how "see you tomorrow" becomes the key of flaskback scene. It means so much and signifies Jack's hope. Thank you.

Was the "see you tomorrow" significant in interpreting what would have happened had not Jack died?  I mean, did it suggest a continued hope in Jack even after the Last Confrontation?  I have never thought about the possibility before...

[jackster]

Was the "see you tomorrow" significant in interpreting what would have happened had not Jack died?  I mean, did it suggest a continued hope in Jack even after the Last Confrontation?  I have never thought about the possibility before...

thomas . . . I feel you are spot on here. “See ya’ tomorrow . . ” signifies it all for me. Firstly, Ennis’s undying love and commitment to Jack, he will always come back and see Jack tomorrow – even to just see his ashes up in Lighting Flat. But also it signifies Ennis’s ongoing internal battle with himself, his need to be at peace with himself, his introverted self in which the outside world is separate – including Jack. I see this as the penultimate frustration of Jack not being able to get inside Ennis, or to not be able to stay inside Ennis. Every time Ennis leaves, from that first time when Ennis switches with Jack and goes to the sheep up on Brokeback, to the last time when he drives away, it is Ennis not only leaving, but Ennis retreating back into himself - into his own private world. The world only he understands and is comfortable with. Only later with his epiphany when he discovers the shirts does he begin to accept himself and his love of Jack as part of the outside world, the world of Jack. I feel Jack always understood this about Ennis, from those earliest days when he watched him ride away, he recognised the inner turmoil (as well as the undying devotion) of Ennis. JMHO

[vedrana]

Great posts all! 

Deep and enlightening! 

[traveller]

thomas . . . I feel you are spot on here. “See ya’ tomorrow . . ” signifies it all for me. Firstly, Ennis’s undying love and commitment to Jack, he will always come back and see Jack tomorrow – even to just see his ashes up in Lighting Flat. But also it signifies Ennis’s ongoing internal battle with himself, his need to be at peace with himself, his introverted self in which the outside world is separate – including Jack. I see this as the penultimate frustration of Jack not being able to get inside Ennis, or to not be able to stay inside Ennis. Every time Ennis leaves, from that first time when Ennis switches with Jack and goes to the sheep up on Brokeback, to the last time when he drives away, it is Ennis not only leaving, but Ennis retreating back into himself - into his own private world. The world only he understands and is comfortable with. Only later with his epiphany when he discovers the shirts does he begin to accept himself and his love of Jack as part of the outside world, the world of Jack. I feel Jack always understood this about Ennis, from those earliest days when he watched him ride away, he recognised the inner turmoil (as well as the undying devotion) of Ennis. JMHO

Why did you use word "penultimate"? The only one meaning of "penultimate" I know is "second from the last" I am afraid I've lost the sense because of my English:-(

What I love about this forum is not only possibility to share my own PBSsadness but also (and maybe even first of all) to extend my point of view, discover new aspects and successive move towards deeper understanding, peace and lasting hope.

[traveller]

I feel Jack always understood this about Ennis, from those earliest days when he watched him ride away, he recognised the inner turmoil (as well as the undying devotion) of Ennis. JMHO

You said so clearly something I felt but was not able to express. Thank you.

[vedrana]

Why did you use word "penultimate"? The only one meaning of "penultimate" I know is "second from the last" I am afraid I've lost the sense because of my English:-(

What I love about this forum is not only possibility to share my own PBSsadness but also (and maybe even first of all) to extend my point of view, discover new aspects and successive move towards deeper understanding, peace and lasting hope.

Yup! That's what is it about.  

[jackster]

Why did you use word "penultimate"?

Don't know really, it kinda' popped into my head. In studying the meaning (always good to do before ya' use a word, huh?  ), anyway, I guess the ultimate frustration of Jack was not being able to actually BE with Ennis, physically, all the time - the sweet life. So the penultimate frustration would be not being able to get into his head, that is, make him (Ennis) see how important he was to Jack (and vice versa).

Thanks for making me think 'bout it, always helps. 

[tpe]

thomas . . . I feel you are spot on here. “See ya’ tomorrow . . ” signifies it all for me. Firstly, Ennis’s undying love and commitment to Jack, he will always come back and see Jack tomorrow – even to just see his ashes up in Lighting Flat. But also it signifies Ennis’s ongoing internal battle with himself, his need to be at peace with himself, his introverted self in which the outside world is separate – including Jack. I see this as the penultimate frustration of Jack not being able to get inside Ennis, or to not be able to stay inside Ennis. Every time Ennis leaves, from that first time when Ennis switches with Jack and goes to the sheep up on Brokeback, to the last time when he drives away, it is Ennis not only leaving, but Ennis retreating back into himself - into his own private world. The world only he understands and is comfortable with. Only later with his epiphany when he discovers the shirts does he begin to accept himself and his love of Jack as part of the outside world, the world of Jack. I feel Jack always understood this about Ennis, from those earliest days when he watched him ride away, he recognised the inner turmoil (as well as the undying devotion) of Ennis. JMHO

It amazes me that after so many years, I still learn something almost everyday in these discussions...

[traveller]

That's the greatness of our movie. It gives us the wide space for creating our own interpretations, insights and understandings.
If we only have our minds and hearts open enough, we can always find in BBM world what we need at the moment of life.
Even if sometimes it hurts so much, even if sometimes the yearning for DE and BBM cramps.
It's good to be on that journey, it's good to become more compassionate and sensible person. It's so good to focus myself on looking for the signs of their lasting friendship, devotion and love. So...uncommon in my boring and practical grown up life.

[tpe]

That's the greatness of our movie. It gives us the wide space for creating our own interpretations, insights and understandings.
If we only have our minds and hearts open enough, we can always find in BBM world what we need at the moment of life.
Even if sometimes it hurts so much, even if sometimes the yearning for DE and BBM cramps.
It's good to be on that journey, it's good to become more compassionate and sensible person. It's so good to focus myself on looking for the signs of their lasting friendship, devotion and love. So...uncommon in my boring and practical grown up life.

Well said.  And I should note that the Dozy Embrace is a microcosm in which everything you said about the entire film in your above response also applies.