Topic: Parallels between Alma Jr. and Ennis

[technotrousers]

I'm new here and haven't yet read back through all the threads so forgive me if this has already been discussed 

Does it seem to anyone else that in the film Alma Jr. is used perhaps as a projection of what Ennis could and should have been like? To explain, we see their similarities in character - quite awkward, shy, not saying much but getting their point across - but while Alma Jr. is able to come out of her shell when she finds love with Kurt, Ennis is unable to do so with Jack. She becomes more confident, as evidenced by her body language and her wearing make up in the last scene unlike when she meets Cassie, and is clearly happy because she recognises that she is loved. Her character doesn't have the same role in the SS so maybe this is the film makers' way of showing that - ignoring his circumstances, internal homophobia, etc, all of which are different discussions - Ennis would have been able to find the same happiness if he had been able to articulate and recognise that what he had with Jack was love all along?

This is kind of a half formed theory in my head, so feel free to tear it to shreds 

[atalley]

  Technotrousers...I never thought of this before, but I can see your points.  I have always felt that Ennis' & Alma, Jr.'s relationship was one of respect & love.  I believe that she new that he & Jack were more than "fishing buddies" as evidenced when she tells Cassie "maybe he's just not the marrying kind".

[tpe]

I'm new here and haven't yet read back through all the threads so forgive me if this has already been discussed 

Does it seem to anyone else that in the film Alma Jr. is used perhaps as a projection of what Ennis could and should have been like? To explain, we see their similarities in character - quite awkward, shy, not saying much but getting their point across - but while Alma Jr. is able to come out of her shell when she finds love with Kurt, Ennis is unable to do so with Jack. She becomes more confident, as evidenced by her body language and her wearing make up in the last scene unlike when she meets Cassie, and is clearly happy because she recognises that she is loved. Her character doesn't have the same role in the SS so maybe this is the film makers' way of showing that - ignoring his circumstances, internal homophobia, etc, all of which are different discussions - Ennis would have been able to find the same happiness if he had been able to articulate and recognise that what he had with Jack was love all along?

This is kind of a half formed theory in my head, so feel free to tear it to shreds 

Welcome technotrouser.

We note the crucial exchange:

Ennis: Now this Kurt fella -- he loves you?

Jr.:.  Yeah, Daddy...  He loves me...

At that moment, I personally feel that Jr.  understood the deeper significance of her father's question.  And so, her response was equally loaded with a deeper significance and meaning: that to openly admit and recognize one's love for another is, in and of itself, a form of liberation.  I think that at that moment, Jr. and Ennis understood PERFECTLY that it wasn't just Kurt that they were thinking about.

[athena0204]

I always felt that Junior knew since she was a child who Jack really was to her father. After all, she could easily see the transformation her father underwent a few times each year, right before he left on one of his trips, and right after he'd returned. By the time she was an adolescent, I'm sure she'd figured out that the reason this guy Jack made Ennis so happy is because he was her father's true love, she could easily see he was the only person who could make her father feel that way. And I believe she felt happy for her father the he had true love, but also sad because she could also see how miserable and alone he felt when he was apart from Jack. I always thought that Ennis and Junior are a lot alike, they might not always say what they are thinking or feeling, and therefore it may be difficult for the people around them to figure it out, but they are feeling inside, and Junior in her quiet way lets her father know that she understands.

[lancecowboy]

I'm new here and haven't yet read back through all the threads so forgive me if this has already been discussed 

Does it seem to anyone else that in the film Alma Jr. is used perhaps as a projection of what Ennis could and should have been like? To explain, we see their similarities in character - quite awkward, shy, not saying much but getting their point across - but while Alma Jr. is able to come out of her shell when she finds love with Kurt, Ennis is unable to do so with Jack. She becomes more confident, as evidenced by her body language and her wearing make up in the last scene unlike when she meets Cassie, and is clearly happy because she recognises that she is loved. Her character doesn't have the same role in the SS so maybe this is the film makers' way of showing that - ignoring his circumstances, internal homophobia, etc, all of which are different discussions - Ennis would have been able to find the same happiness if he had been able to articulate and recognise that what he had with Jack was love all along?

This is kind of a half formed theory in my head, so feel free to tear it to shreds 

Welcome technotrousers. That's an interesting theory, and in a way I agree. I am not saying Alma Junior is a perfect parallel of Ennis if he were female, like Cassie is a remarkable parallel of Jack in Ennis' life.

What I mean is that I agree Junior exhibits certain characteristics as Ennis, as you say, her straight forward manners, her reticence, her growth in confidence after she finds love. Ennis also exhibited growth in confidence on the mountain as he and Jack grew closer. After the reunion, at the river side, thanking heavens, Ennis was the happiest and closet to Junior at her wedding announcement. Now that you mentioned it, there is a parallel between her announcement, and Jack's proposal of the sweet life.

If Ennis and Jack were free to marry, and Junior and Kurt were, Brokeback Mountain would have a happy ending.

Thanks for the refreshing insights.

[tpe]

I always felt that Junior knew since she was a child who Jack really was to her father. After all, she could easily see the transformation her father underwent a few times each year, right before he left on one of his trips, and right after he'd returned. By the time she was an adolescent, I'm sure she'd figured out that the reason this guy Jack made Ennis so happy is because he was her father's true love, she could easily see he was the only person who could make her father feel that way. And I believe she felt happy for her father the he had true love, but also sad because she could also see how miserable and alone he felt when he was apart from Jack. I always thought that Ennis and Junior are a lot alike, they might not always say what they are thinking or feeling, and therefore it may be difficult for the people around them to figure it out, but they are feeling inside, and Junior in her quiet way lets her father know that she understands.

I also felt that she knew.  The "He's not the marrying kind" comment is quite telling.  And I wonder how much Alma and Monroe discussed Ennis within earshot of the kids...

In any case, I felt that Jr. always reached out to her father, but knew that there was an impenetrable side to his character.  But I sensed that she had a special place in Ennis's affections.

[athena0204]

I also felt that she knew.  The "He's not the marrying kind" comment is quite telling.  And I wonder how much Alma and Monroe discussed Ennis within earshot of the kids...

In any case, I felt that Jr. always reached out to her father, but knew that there was an impenetrable side to his character.  But I sensed that she had a special place in Ennis's affections.

I'm very sure that Junior knew. Remember the scene where Cassie is with Ennis in the truck? When Junior sees that it's Cassie in the truck, the look on her face goes from a smile to disappointment, as if she's about to shake her head and say "Oh dad, stop pretending, you know the only person who you truly love and whom you should really be with---Jack." It's the same when she's talking to Cassie as she tells her that her father isn't the "marrying kind". It's clear that she's very well aware of the situation and has been for a long time. She knows the person who her dad loves. As to how often Monroe and Alma must of discussed Ennis, I have a feeling that Monroe knew because Alma had told him. But I also think Junior wouldn't have to listen in on her stepfather's and mother's conversations to know about Ennis, she was quite perceptive, and being so similar to her father, she could figure him out much more easily than other people could. She and Ennis have an unspoken understanding between them. A lot of people have trouble understanding someone who doesn't talk much, and we know that Ennis didn't really talk much to anyone except for Jack of course. But Junior, being the quiet type herself, definitely had more insight into her father than most.

[tpe]

I'm very sure that Junior knew. Remember the scene where Cassie is with Ennis in the truck? When Junior sees that it's Cassie in the truck, the look on her face goes from a smile to disappointment, as if she's about to shake her head and say "Oh dad, stop pretending, you know the only person who you truly love and whom you should really be with---Jack." It's the same when she's talking to Cassie as she tells her that her father isn't the "marrying kind". It's clear that she's very well aware of the situation and has been for a long time. She knows the person who her dad loves. As to how often Monroe and Alma must of discussed Ennis, I have a feeling that Monroe knew because Alma had told him. But I also think Junior wouldn't have to listen in on her stepfather's and mother's conversations to know about Ennis, she was quite perceptive, and being so similar to her father, she could figure him out much more easily than other people could. She and Ennis have an unspoken understanding between them. A lot of people have trouble understanding someone who doesn't talk much, and we know that Ennis didn't really talk much to anyone except for Jack of course. But Junior, being the quiet type herself, definitely had more insight into her father than most.

Yes, I do connect her "sadness" in that scene as a knowing kind of sadness -- perhaps she felt a bit of pity for Cassie? 

But I also tend to think that perhaps there was also a bit of jealousy here.  Like Ennis, Jr. was probably of a jealous nature, don't you think?

[lancecowboy]

I'm very sure that Junior knew. Remember the scene where Cassie is with Ennis in the truck? When Junior sees that it's Cassie in the truck, the look on her face goes from a smile to disappointment, as if she's about to shake her head and say "Oh dad, stop pretending, you know the only person who you truly love and whom you should really be with---Jack." It's the same when she's talking to Cassie as she tells her that her father isn't the "marrying kind". It's clear that she's very well aware of the situation and has been for a long time. She knows the person who her dad loves. As to how often Monroe and Alma must of discussed Ennis, I have a feeling that Monroe knew because Alma had told him. But I also think Junior wouldn't have to listen in on her stepfather's and mother's conversations to know about Ennis, she was quite perceptive, and being so similar to her father, she could figure him out much more easily than other people could. She and Ennis have an unspoken understanding between them. A lot of people have trouble understanding someone who doesn't talk much, and we know that Ennis didn't really talk much to anyone except for Jack of course. But Junior, being the quiet type herself, definitely had more insight into her father than most.

Strangely, I got away with a different interpretation of that scene. I don't see Junior feeling the way you described.

I think Junior wanted Ennis all for herself, and was disappointed that someone else was there. Jenny wasn't part of this outing, and Junior probably thought she and Ennis were all alone. She even went so far as to ask Ennis if she could move in with him. She probably knew Ennis wasn't "the marrying kind" and she was happy to have him all for herself.

Pity for Cassie, was probably what she felt for Cassie, "good enough". Junior idolizes Ennis, and no woman was too good for him. She was "good enough" because she made him happy, drew him out of his brooding drinking habits in 'em early days. Junior must have seen that, and was happy for that. She warned Cassie, and felt pity that she would be disappointed eventually when she realizes that Ennis wasn't the marrying kind. And Junior was proven right.

[atalley]

Welcome technotrouser.

We note the crucial exchange:

Ennis: Now this Kurt fella -- he loves you?

Jr.:.  Yeah, Daddy...  He loves me...

At that moment, I personally feel that Jr.  understood the deeper significance of her father's question.  And so, her response was equally loaded with a deeper significance and meaning: that to openly admit and recognize one's love for another is, in and of itself, a form of liberation.  I think that at that moment, Jr. and Ennis understood PERFECTLY that it wasn't just Kurt that they were thinking about.

I love this, Thomas...so true!

[athena0204]

Strangely, I got away with a different interpretation of that scene. I don't see Junior feeling the way you described.

I think Junior wanted Ennis all for herself, and was disappointed that someone else was there. Jenny wasn't part of this outing, and Junior probably thought she and Ennis were all alone. She even went so far as to ask Ennis if she could move in with him. She probably knew Ennis wasn't "the marrying kind" and she was happy to have him all for herself.

Pity for Cassie, was probably what she felt for Cassie, "good enough". Junior idolizes Ennis, and no woman was too good for him. She was "good enough" because she made him happy, drew him out of his brooding drinking habits in 'em early days. Junior must have seen that, and was happy for that. She warned Cassie, and felt pity that she would be disappointed eventually when she realizes that Ennis wasn't the marrying kind. And Junior was proven right.

Yes, I also think that part of it was because she wanted her dad all to herself, but it's undeniable that she knew something about her father's relationship with Jack, and what it meant. She realized from early on that her father was happy only when Jack was around, kids are very perceptive. Junior easily saw that Ennis wasn't truly happy around Cassie, and could only be happy with one person, Jack of course. She realized what this man meant to her father. Junior never really saw her father display any sort of enthusiasm except right before or after he had spent time with a certain someone. The rest of time Ennis went through the motions and outwardly displayed that same quiet, stoic demeanor. So I believe Junior did know about her father's situation, but it's true that she was happy for it in more ways than one, because it allowed her to have her dad to herself and it didn't allow for some woman who wasn't her mother to steal his affections.

[lancecowboy]

Yes, I also think that part of it was because she wanted her dad all to herself, but it's undeniable that she knew something about her father's relationship with Jack, and what it meant. She realized from early on that her father was happy only when Jack was around, kids are very perceptive. Junior easily saw that Ennis wasn't truly happy around Cassie, and could only be happy with one person, Jack of course. She realized what this man meant to her father. Junior never really saw her father display any sort of enthusiasm except right before or after he had spent time with a certain someone. The rest of time Ennis went through the motions and outwardly displayed that same quiet, stoic demeanor. So I believe Junior did know about her father's situation, but it's true that she was happy for it in more ways than one, because it allowed her to have her dad to herself and it didn't allow for some woman who wasn't her mother to steal his affections.

Hmm...I guess her acceptance of Jack would explain the divorce scene,with her being so happy meeting Jack. I always wondered about that. Perhaps you are correct to say Junior was disappointed that the second person in the truck was Cassie, and not Jack. That's definitely food for thought, and fanfiction. 

[tpe]

I love this, Thomas...so true!

Thanks atalley.    For all the emotional difficulty/tension involved in watching that exhcange between father and daughter, I simply love it to bits.  It is part of the larger and deeper meaning/significance behind the ending of the film.  And it was brilliantly done!