Topic: was ennis autistic?

[lancecowboy]

I don't know at what age psychologists think a person is conscious of one's sexual preferences;but what it's true is that any traumatic experience,more or less in rapport with sex,in an early age lets an indelible mark in this person's mind and soul.I agree in that it's unconscious this mark and the attraction that any forbidden question lets in a young mind.But I have always thought that Earl and Rich's tragedy made Ennis feel a repulsion but at the same time an attraction to what deserved so hard punishment.It's something that happens all the time with persons who has been educated in a very narrow minded and sin feared environment,for example.

I think so too.  I feel that it was a mixture of horror, revulsion, and "attraction" as you call it.  Perhaps some form of identification was made unconsciously, at this stage?

No, I don't think there was an identification in your sense of sexual orientation.

I think, and agree with mpj, that the traumatic incident imprinted the homophobia onto Ennis so much that, even if he wasn't attracted to men in the beginning, the obsession with it afterward, to avoid being seen as a sissy, as queer, twisted his development to the point where it is entirely possible that he became more sensitive to attraction to men as a result, speaking hypothetically and speculatively.

It has been observed that men who are the most vocal and boisterous in their homophobia are also the ones who often have latent homosexual tendencies (whatever that means). It is this obsession with homosexuals that is often the problem, not the gay feelings themselves, which are normal in adolescent development. Many straight men experience them, but never return to them in later life. It is the preoccupation with having/not having them which often create a kind of mental trap, when the desire to NOT think about something result in thinking about it ALL the time.

Love and hate, attraction and repulsion, to think and not to think, the ying and yang of life, are all separated by a fine line. Ennis was trapped by the trauma in his homophobia. Did homophobia lead to his susceptibility to Jack? Could he have loved Jack without the prelude of friendship on Brokeback Mountain? Who knows? Personally, it doesn't matter. What matters, to me, is how he responds to the love when it presents itself. The trap, which may have led him to Jack, was also what kept him from the love of his love.

[tpe]

No, I don't think there was an identification in your sense of sexual orientation.

I think, and agree with mpj, that the traumatic incident imprinted the homophobia onto Ennis so much that, even if he wasn't attracted to men in the beginning, the obsession with it afterward, to avoid being seen as a sissy, as queer, twisted his development to the point where it is entirely possible that he became more sensitive to attraction to men as a result, speaking hypothetically and speculatively.

It has been observed that men who are the most vocal and boisterous in their homophobia are also the ones who often have latent homosexual tendencies (whatever that means). It is this obsession with homosexuals that is often the problem, not the gay feelings themselves, which are normal in adolescent development. Many straight men experience them, but never return to them in later life. It is the preoccupation with having/not having them which often create a kind of mental trap, when the desire to NOT think about something result in thinking about it ALL the time.

Love and hate, attraction and repulsion, to think and not to think, the ying and yang of life, are all separated by a fine line. Ennis was trapped by the trauma in his homophobia. Did homophobia lead to his susceptibility to Jack? Could he have loved Jack without the prelude of friendship on Brokeback Mountain? Who knows? Personally, it doesn't matter. What matters, to me, is how he responds to the love when it presents itself. The trap, which may have led him to Jack, was also what kept him from the love of his love.

Interesting POV, especially the last section. 

If I read you correctly, it is not a question of autism or a manifestation of physiological defects.  Rather, it has more to do with an inherent conflict from within.  And the traumatic incident only served to highten the internal conflict, perhaps to the point of an obsession.

[lancecowboy]

Interesting POV, especially the last section. 

If I read you correctly, it is not a question of autism or a manifestation of physiological defects.  Rather, it has more to do with an inherent conflict from within.  And the traumatic incident only served to highten the internal conflict, perhaps to the point of an obsession.

Nope. My point is that even if there were NO internal conflict, NO sexual attraction, the traumatic incident and heightened homophobia from his father's upbringing could lead to an obsession that sensitized Ennis to all things queer, leading to his becoming Jacksexual. My point is that we do not know nor understand the sexual development process to predict in all cases the why and how of people's sexual orientation. We can say, from limited case studies, the statistical probability of the general picture, but there is insufficient knowledge to say with certainty anything about an individual. It is similar to statistical mechanics when understanding the behavior of gas molecules. We can predict the behavior of a large collection of molecules because their behavior is averaged over a large sample, a stereotype if you will. However, individually, we cannot predict the behavior of an individual molecule because we cannot, even with the most sensitive equipment, have complete knowledge of a single molecule. Without accurate knowledge, we cannot predict its behavior.

We do not have sufficient knowledge about Ennis, and we never will, even if Ennis were alive and well and available for an interview, because even Ennis did not know nor understand himself completely. The beauty of their love is that Jack helped Ennis discover himself, the part of himself he never knew.

[myprivatejack]

We do not have sufficient knowledge about Ennis, and we never will, even if Ennis were alive and well and available for an interview, because even Ennis did not know nor understand himself completely. The beauty of their love is that Jack helped Ennis discover himself, the part of himself he never knew.

I have had to remark these phrases because,letting aside their beauty,they seem a great truth to me...And coming back to the thread itself,I agree that the internal problem came from this traumatic experience and that this situation made him have a contradictory feeling about the "reasons" why this kind of persons could be killed.As you,Lance,has said,leading him to a kind of obsession with homosexuality,to condemn it-as he had been taught to do-,but also to become kind of curious about these reasons I talked about before.
It's true that persons who have been educated in a very severe environment-for example,in a rigid religious school sometimes-develop an obsession with sex,ordinarily to reject and condamn it;but very often too,to be(as I say and excuse me for the expression...),"the most whore among the whores" when they realise by themselves this is something natural and by no means as "demoniac" as they have been taught.-Of course,when I'm talking about "whores" I'm not talking in the complet sense of the word,but meaning that they become ordinarily most open-minded and free behaved than somebody who hasn't had a so strict education,so,please,that nobody gets hurt... ).It's to say,it becomes an effect rather different to the one the represor had wanted to get:could have it been Ennis case?.I'm rather sure it was...

[lancecowboy]

No worries, mpj. There is also a common English expression, about being a preacher's daughter or something like that. It comes from a similar rebellion against a rigid upbringing. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. This may apply to psychological forces, too. I am not sure how equal and how opposite apply in psychological space, but the intensity of homophobia certainly translates to an intensity in sexual expression. Even Jack was occasionally surprised at how passionate Ennis behaved, i.e. the reunion kiss, FNIT, and in a spiritual and internal way, SNIT. All the bottled up emotions create an intensity that is very different for someone who was, say, brought up in a liberal and permissive environment.

Yes, I like that part of what I wrote, too.

even Ennis did not know nor understand himself completely.
The beauty of their love is that Jack helped Ennis discover himself, the part  of himself he never knew.

Not to be overly modest  I am happy to find you feel the same way. 

[tpe]

Nope. My point is that even if there were NO internal conflict, NO sexual attraction, the traumatic incident and heightened homophobia from his father's upbringing could lead to an obsession that sensitized Ennis to all things queer, leading to his becoming Jacksexual. My point is that we do not know nor understand the sexual development process to predict in all cases the why and how of people's sexual orientation. We can say, from limited case studies, the statistical probability of the general picture, but there is insufficient knowledge to say with certainty anything about an individual. It is similar to statistical mechanics when understanding the behavior of gas molecules. We can predict the behavior of a large collection of molecules because their behavior is averaged over a large sample, a stereotype if you will. However, individually, we cannot predict the behavior of an individual molecule because we cannot, even with the most sensitive equipment, have complete knowledge of a single molecule. Without accurate knowledge, we cannot predict its behavior.

We do not have sufficient knowledge about Ennis, and we never will, even if Ennis were alive and well and available for an interview, because even Ennis did not know nor understand himself completely. The beauty of their love is that Jack helped Ennis discover himself, the part of himself he never knew.

But I would think that such a conflicted reaction WOULD point to some internal conflict (or perhaps even latent attraction).  A conflicted reaction points to a conflicted state, by definition.  As I have noted before, many people in real life have undergone even worse trauma (e.g., having been physcially/emotionally harmed at an early age) and have shown a less conflicted nature than Ennis.  And we should note that people at an early age are surprisingly resilient. 

My point is that we often react to traumatic events according to internal as much as external stuimuli.  We might not know much about Ennis, but we know enough about human nature itself to make reasonably good guesses in terms of a relationship between the internal state of body/mind and external events.

 

[lancecowboy]

But I would think that such a conflicted reaction WOULD point to some internal conflict (or perhaps even latent attraction).  A conflicted reaction points to a conflicted state, by definition.  As I have noted before, many people in real life have undergone even worse trauma (e.g., having been physcially/emotionally harmed at an early age) and have shown a less conflicted nature than Ennis.  And we should note that people at an early age are surprisingly resilient. 

My point is that we often react to traumatic events according to internal as much as external stuimuli.  We might not know much about Ennis, but we know enough about human nature itself to make reasonably good guesses in terms of a relationship between the internal state of body/mind and external events.

Thomas, are you referring to the conflicted nature of the twenty-something Ennis, or the nine-year-old Ennis before witnessing the traumatic event. With this on-going discussion, it appears the time line of your reference is a bit blurred.

I was referring to the nine-year-old before the event, and as far as I could tell, most children do not come into the world with inherent conflicted nature. I grant you that you can hypothesize a precocious Ennis already discovered sex behind the barn and therefore with internal conflicts, but that IS an assumption, which is my point that we cannot safely making those assumptions as if they are facts. You can make them, as a personal choice. I choose not to because I believe the story is meant to be interpreted with an innocent Ennis that was traumatized by the violence of his father's actions.

It's not necessary to always make it a gay issue. My point is that even without the connection, i.e. homophobia, the violence is sufficient to create some kind of trauma that is lasting in Ennis. Because the violence is directed against a gay man, in Ennis' mind, the fear for the violence became a life-long homophobia. If the violence was against some other minority, the fear for the violence would become another form of prejudice. That is why I don't subscribe to your interpretation that the nine-year-old Ennis already had sexual feelings. It is not necessary, and in my opinion, unlikely. It appears to be an interpretation that is only needed to make Ennis gay, rather than to understand the significance of that moment in his life.

[atalley]

No, I don't think he was autistic; just a very quiet, shy guy who probably didn't have any social skills to speak of .

[tpe]

Thomas, are you referring to the conflicted nature of the twenty-something Ennis, or the nine-year-old Ennis before witnessing the traumatic event. With this on-going discussion, it appears the time line of your reference is a bit blurred.

I was referring to the nine-year-old before the event, and as far as I could tell, most children do not come into the world with inherent conflicted nature. I grant you that you can hypothesize a precocious Ennis already discovered sex behind the barn and therefore with internal conflicts, but that IS an assumption, which is my point that we cannot safely making those assumptions as if they are facts. You can make them, as a personal choice. I choose not to because I believe the story is meant to be interpreted with an innocent Ennis that was traumatized by the violence of his father's actions.

It's not necessary to always make it a gay issue. My point is that even without the connection, i.e. homophobia, the violence is sufficient to create some kind of trauma that is lasting in Ennis. Because the violence is directed against a gay man, in Ennis' mind, the fear for the violence became a life-long homophobia. If the violence was against some other minority, the fear for the violence would become another form of prejudice. That is why I don't subscribe to your interpretation that the nine-year-old Ennis already had sexual feelings. It is not necessary, and in my opinion, unlikely. It appears to be an interpretation that is only needed to make Ennis gay, rather than to understand the significance of that moment in his life.

Well, I guess I look at children in a more complicated light, and yes, I tend to think that conflicted natures in adults are rooted in a conflicted nature developed in childhood. 

I think you assume too much: that this issue that I bring up is a gay issue.   It is not, and it holds true for any number of circumstances. 

But sexuality IS something that is developed in childhood, and yes, sexual feelings and problems don't have to be conscious.  This is true, whether one is gay or straight.

The question then is not whether or not this is true -- it is safe to say that it is.  The question is whether such conflicts manifest themselves physiologically -- which is in keeping with the original topic at hand.

[lancecowboy]

Well, I guess I look at children in a more complicated light, and yes, I tend to think that conflicted natures in adults are rooted in a conflicted nature developed in childhood. 

If it is developed in childhood, then it means at some point it was NOT there, i.e. Ennis at say, nine before witnessing the death scene. So you support my point that the conflicted nature of Ennis' subsequent homophobia does not necessarily have anything to do with any sexual feelings conscious or other wise, that the violent event itself was the source of the conflicted nature.

I think you assume too much: that this issue that I bring up is a gay issue.   It is not, and it holds true for any number of circumstances. 

I did not assume anything. You stated earlier specifically that sexual orientation and identity are defined by the an early age.

But sexuality IS something that is developed in childhood, and yes, sexual feelings and problems don't have to be conscious.  This is true, whether one is gay or straight.

The question then is not whether or not this is true -- IT IS.  The question is whether such conflicts manifest themselves physiologically -- which is in keeping with the original topic at hand.

As I said, you made this point to tie the trauma to the orientation, and my point is that it is equally plausible that the orientation is subsequent to the trauma. It is not definitive one way or the other because there is insufficient information, in my opinion. You are of an apparently different opinion, and as we said in the "Was Ennis Gay?" thread we can agree to disagree. But this thread is about "Was Ennis Autistic?"

And to return to the topic, I read recently that there is a theory that autism is not necessarily a genetic or pathological disorder, but rather, a systemic disorder due to different or a combination of different disorders manifesting neurologically. So the question is whether the psychological trauma can create psychosomatic disorders which combine to manifest in autistic spectrum disorder. I recognize that it is a long sequence of suppositions and the answer is most likely in the negative, which would be in keeping in the emerging consensus that Ennis was not autistic but simply shy and quiet.

[lila70]

I don't know at what age psychologists think a person is conscious of one's sexual preferences;but what it's true is that any traumatic experience,more or less in rapport with sex,in an early age lets an indelible mark in this person's mind and soul.I agree in that it's unconscious this mark and the attraction that any forbidden question lets in a young mind.But I have always thought that Earl and Rich's tragedy made Ennis feel a repulsion but at the same time an attraction to what deserved so hard punishment.It's something that happens all the time with persons who has been educated in a very narrow minded and sin feared environment,for example.

From a psychological as well as physiological standpoint,  I think we become conscious of our sexual preferences around puberty.  At the age of nine, it is likely Ennis would not yet have been aware of his sexual orientation.  A few years later, upon maturing sexually, he would have come to realize to his horror that he had the same sexual urges as those "queers" he had been trained to hate.  As a result he withdrew completely into himself, loathing what he had become.

[lancecowboy]

From a psychological as well as physiological standpoint,  I think we become conscious of our sexual preferences around puberty.  At the age of nine, it is likely Ennis would not yet have been aware of his sexual orientation.  A few years later, upon maturing sexually, he would have come to realize to his horror that he had the same sexual urges as those "queers" he had been trained to hate.  As a result he withdrew completely into himself, loathing what he had become.

That's the story of many gay men, in the past. The self-loathing manifests itself in many different ways, depending on the individual. As you said, in the case of Ennis, without any loving support from ANY one in his life, his only option was really to hide, as deeply in his already erected shell as he could. Unfortunately, as with many other gay men in the past, the depth of his hiding eventually drowned him in his own homophobia. Even the loving lifeline from Jack wasn't enough to pull him to safety, and a sweet life, until too late. 

Gosh, I don't want to get back into that PBS space just now. But the story of Ennis and Jack is always there.  :\'(

[athena0204]

That's the story of many gay men, in the past. The self-loathing manifests itself in many different ways, depending on the individual. As you said, in the case of Ennis, without any loving support from ANY one in his life, his only option was really to hide, as deeply in his already erected shell as he could. Unfortunately, as with many other gay men in the past, the depth of his hiding eventually drowned him in his own homophobia. Even the loving lifeline from Jack wasn't enough to pull him to safety, and a sweet life, until too late. 

Gosh, I don't want to get back into that PBS space just now. But the story of Ennis and Jack is always there.  :\'(

His feelings of lonliness and being out of place, not belonging, not being understood just caused him to retreat further back inside the walls he'd built to shield himself from the cruel world in which he'd been thrown. Jack was the only one in his life who treated him like a human being and with genuine kindness, understanding and loving him for who he is. Unfortunately, like you said, the fear and restriction was too much and still deprived him of having the complete life he deserved, of being free and happy. He could only be free and happy in glimpses. And another thing I've wanted to add is that while it is debatable exactly at what age attractions/orientation become known, it is clear that it is not a concious choice the person makes.

[lancecowboy]

His feelings of lonliness and being out of place, not belonging, not being understood just caused him to retreat further back inside the walls he'd built to shield himself from the cruel world in which he'd been thrown. Jack was the only one in his life who treated him like a human being and with genuine kindness, understanding and loving him for who he is.

I am not sure if that is why Ennis was the lonesome cowboy that he was. I guess what you say contributed to his reticent and quiet life in the beginning, but in the rural west, people also respect personal choices, and would not presume to invade his privacy, his personal space, like LaShawna would surely do. Even Cassie's approaching him in the bar, would be considered very forward. Once Ennis adopted his  lonesome cowboy persona after his couple years of high school, after the transmission on the truck broke, I think the "leaving him alone" attitude contributed to his shyness. In other words, I doubt that it was an active avoidance of the world, but rather a passive let the world be and let him be kind of non-communication. I don't think Ennis would be rude and refuse to talk to anyone. He was just the stoic cowboy.

What made Jack special to Ennis was his carefree attitude, and ability to draw him out, not invading his space, and willingness to listen, in addition to what you said, his respect for Ennis as equal and a human being, even though theoretically, being a little older and with a year of seniority, he could have bossed Ennis around, or dominated Ennis in conversation or whatever. Being treated respectfully and as an equal made Jack very attractive in the eyes of Ennis, to the effect of him devoting his life to Jack.

Unfortunately, like you said, the fear and restriction was too much and still deprived him of having the complete life he deserved, of being free and happy. He could only be free and happy in glimpses.

Yes, the homophobia instilled by his father at the age of nine, build the initial walls that isolated him from a happy life. And even with his lucky meeting with Jack, he was unable to overcome it.

And another thing I've wanted to add is that while it is debatable exactly at what age attractions/orientation become known, it is clear that it is not a concious choice the person makes.

As I said, there is insufficient information to make a determination, and any proposition is mere speculation. I have no trouble with other people making the choice to believe that Ennis was gay from birth. I personally choose to follow what Annie Proulx said, that they were two cowboys of indeterminate sexual orientation going up that mountain one summer, and came away in love with each other.

Without getting too off topic, since this discussion really belongs in the "Was Ennis Gay?" thread, and we are essentially re-stating what has already been gone over thoroughly there - if a person is not conscious of his sexual orientation, then is he gay or straight or bi? If a person can be attracted to men AND women, is he closeted gay, bi, or straight with a gay tendency? If a person is only unconsciously attracted to men, but does not do anything to pursue that attraction, and yet live happily with his woman, is he gay, bi, or straight?

These labels are fundamentally insufficient to describe the complexity of human sexuality and to force anyone to fit any one of these labels at a moment in time is to miss the bigger picture. Labels are made men, not men for labels.

To force a person to fit a particular label, in my opinion, is not only counter productive, it borders on prejudice.

[athena0204]

You are right about the fact that Ennis isn't rude, he would talk to someone that talked to him. But he didn't feel a connection to the people around him. He felt isolated, like an island, just like his name means. Lonely and not understood, surrounded by people that aren't like him, he felt detached and on the outside, destined to be alone in this life till he met Jack. For the first time in his life, he felt connected to a person, and he felt understood, cared about, and genuinely loved. I think you say it very well when you say how Jack treated Ennis. It touched Ennis's gentle soul, that needed to be loved and respected and valued, that's why only Jack could ever know the real Ennis and only Jack could bring him out. Also, I'm against labels as well, whatever type they may be. It's sad that most people in this world base their identity on and define themselves by all these meaningless and artificial boxes society draws. All those things, like the gender of a person, the color of their skin, their orientation, their nationality, ethnicity, cultural or religious background they're born into, socioeconomic status, etc, etc, all those things are not who a person is, those are just the particular circumstances of one particular life in one particular world. The soul is who a person is, the unchanging and permanence of the human soul, and that is how Jack and Ennis love each other, as two human souls, that is true love. I was just saying that the attraction part isn't really a concious choice that someone is making. Society wouldn't let Ennis and Jack be together because for it their attraction, their love was not "normal", they could be killed for it because it was what society thought a perverse choice, a "sin". A man and a woman being together even though they don't love each other was perfectly okay with society, but two people who are soulmates and truly deeply love each other was frowned upon simply because it went against the oppressive rules, simply because it was two men in this case. That's the whole piint of this beautiful story, and that's why it's so sad.

[trekfan]

Ennis was not autistic.   I think he was an introverted man who suffered with relationships.  It's no wonder since he suffered trauma after seeing a dead body at the age of 9.   How can a child process something like that? (let alone even a adult,  unless you are a person who works around dead bodies like a coroner)

[aintfoolin]

I don't think he was austistic either.

Ennis clearly cherished three things. His girls, his horses and Jack Twist. In them he found peace, love, and patience and understanding. Regardless of what Ennis felt  as a child and the vicious traumas he suffered, in the end, this quiet, shy cowboy showed what he was really made of   He was defending the relationship he had with Jack twice,  in Alma's kitchen at thanksgiving and defended it again by going to LF after Jack's death  to retreive the ashes so that it could be as Jack wanted, coming face to face with hatred of the relationship in the form of Jack's father, he did'nt know what he'd encounter when he got there, yet he came. 

No, he was not the best communicator with words but his possessiveness and the fierce  jeaulosy he showed more than made up for for what he could not say verbally about the way he felt about Jack. I think he embraced the lonesome cowboy persona because there's where he felt most comfortable, most safe, because he held much hidden  within, many secrets he felt he could not let be known. Jack was the only one who could know how deeply personal the story of Earl and Rich , how much it meant to Ennis to tell it. Why he needed to tell it. He knew Jack could  be trusted to easily read this complicated man. He hoped Jack would now know How he was hurt and Why it was so hard for Ennis to let go of his pain. I believe he connected Jack's fate with Earl's, in the end, his fears demanded it be true. MO

[lancecowboy]

I don't think he was austistic either.

Yes, that appears to be the consensus.

Ennis clearly cherished three things. His girls, his horses and Jack Twist. In them he found peace, love, and patience and understanding. Regardless of what Ennis felt  as a child and the vicious traumas he suffered, in the end, this quiet, shy cowboy showed what he was really made of   He was defending the relationship he had with Jack twice,  in Alma's kitchen at thanksgiving and defended it again by going to LF after Jack's death  to retreive the ashes so that it could be as Jack wanted, coming face to face with hatred of the relationship in the form of Jack's father, he did'nt know what he'd encounter when he got there, yet he came. 

I think that day after FNIT, when he went face to face with the dead sheep, he was confronting the fear that was there, from the past... the flies circling the corpse, the smell... (recall the face he made, that first day when Jack Twist related the incident of lightning killing all 'em sheep and the smell. He may even then be reminded of the smell that horrible day, depending which way the wind was blowing then). In a sense, I can see his killing the coyote, and burying the dead sheep, as a way of him making peace with that incident, and then went looking for Jack, declaring that he ain't queer. He was willing to open up to some fun between friends, but he ain't gonna commit to being called queer. Jack wasn't happy about that, but he was willing to let be. "Me neither. It ain't nobody's business but ours."

No, he was not the best communicator with words but his possessiveness and the fierce  jeaulosy he showed more than made up for for what he could not say verbally about the way he felt about Jack. I think he embraced the lonesome cowboy persona because there's where he felt most comfortable, most safe, because he held much hidden  within, many secrets he felt he could not let be known. Jack was the only one who could know how deeply personal the story of Earl and Rich , how much it meant to Ennis to tell it. Why he needed to tell it. He knew Jack could  be trusted to easily read this complicated man. He hoped Jack would now know How he was hurt and Why it was so hard for Ennis to let go of his pain.

Yes, I agree completely. It's why they are soul mates. They understand each other in a way that no one else can come close. Jack reaching out to career Ennis' ear after the story, that speaks volume, silently, and the look on Ennis' face reveal that he also understood how much Jack cared and understood about him. For someone to tell that story for the first time in his life, probably, and get a response that touches his soul, no wonder Ennis was devoted to Jack all his life.

I believe he connected Jack's fate with Earl's, in the end, his fears demanded it be true. MO

I don't know if Ennis demanded it to be true. I think he was hoping to avoid it, but when it happened, his fears latched on, and made it true, no matter what Loreen said. In addition to the regular normal grief, survivor guilt, Ennis had to deal with homophobic vengeance. As Jackster said in another thread, the expression of Ennis' face when talking with Loreen, hearing the detail of Jack's death, was excruciating pain, inner turmoil that grabbed hold of his entire being. The tire iron was the one symbol that made sense of what he felt, that same feeling of terror from thirty years ago, that never completely went away.

[athena0204]

I don't think he was austistic either.

Ennis clearly cherished three things. His girls, his horses and Jack Twist. In them he found peace, love, and patience and understanding. Regardless of what Ennis felt  as a child and the vicious traumas he suffered, in the end, this quiet, shy cowboy showed what he was really made of   He was defending the relationship he had with Jack twice,  in Alma's kitchen at thanksgiving and defended it again by going to LF after Jack's death  to retreive the ashes so that it could be as Jack wanted, coming face to face with hatred of the relationship in the form of Jack's father, he did'nt know what he'd encounter when he got there, yet he came.  No, he was not the best communicator with words but his possessiveness and the fierce  jeaulosy he showed more than made up for for what he could not say verbally about the way he felt about Jack. I think he embraced the lonesome cowboy persona because there's where he felt most comfortable, most safe, because he held much hidden  within, many secrets he felt he could not let be known. Jack was the only one who could know how deeply personal the story of Earl and Rich , how much it meant to Ennis to tell it. Why he needed to tell it. He knew Jack could  be trusted to easily read this complicated man. He hoped Jack would now know How he was hurt and Why it was so hard for Ennis to let go of his pain. I believe he connected Jack's fate with Earl's, in the end, his fears demanded it be true. MO

Very good analysis of Ennis's character. I think he's not given enough credit for going to see Jack's parents in the end. Ennis had to overcome so much fear just to do that. His relationship with Jack would be out in the open, in front of John Twist, someone Ennis knew would be hateful of it. So Ennis took a big step by getting the courage to go and confront that. And Jack always understood Ennis and understood why he was afraid. He was frustrated that Ennis couldn't gather up more courage and fight for their love, but he also understood the pain and fear and sympathized with Ennis. The softness and comfort of his words and his touch after Ennis recounts the story of Earl and Rich speaks volumes about that.

[tpe]

If it is developed in childhood, then it means at some point it was NOT there, i.e. Ennis at say, nine before witnessing the death scene. So you support my point that the conflicted nature of Ennis' subsequent homophobia does not necessarily have anything to do with any sexual feelings conscious or other wise, that the violent event itself was the source of the conflicted nature.

I did not assume anything. You stated earlier specifically that sexual orientation and identity are defined by the an early age.

As I said, you made this point to tie the trauma to the orientation, and my point is that it is equally plausible that the orientation is subsequent to the trauma. It is not definitive one way or the other because there is insufficient information, in my opinion. You are of an apparently different opinion, and as we said in the "Was Ennis Gay?" thread we can agree to disagree. But this thread is about "Was Ennis Autistic?"

The last time I checked the definition, sexual orientation can mean straight or gay.    Since when did it connote gayness exclusively?    Again, I think you assume too much...

And to return to the topic, I read recently that there is a theory that autism is not necessarily a genetic or pathological disorder, but rather, a systemic disorder due to different or a combination of different disorders manifesting neurologically. So the question is whether the psychological trauma can create psychosomatic disorders which combine to manifest in autistic spectrum disorder. I recognize that it is a long sequence of suppositions and the answer is most likely in the negative, which would be in keeping in the emerging consensus that Ennis was not autistic but simply shy and quiet.

Certainly a good point!

[athena0204]

I don't know if Ennis demanded it to be true. I think he was hoping to avoid it, but when it happened, his fears latched on, and made it true, no matter what Loreen said. In addition to the regular normal grief, survivor guilt, Ennis had to deal with homophobic vengeance. As Jackster said in another thread, the expression of Ennis' face when talking with Loreen, hearing the detail of Jack's death, was excruciating pain, inner turmoil that grabbed hold of his entire being. The tire iron was the one symbol that made sense of what he felt, that same feeling of terror from thirty years ago, that never completely went away.

I don't believe he demanded it to be true either. He didn't want to think that the person he loved so much was killed in such a horrible way, but his fear of course made him believe that is how Jack was killed, and it was also the pain of Jack suffering what Ennis had tried so hard so protect both himself and Jack from all those years. It's like he felt Jack's pain, and also the pain of how he had hurt Jack, that he should have just listened and gone to live with him, because they would have been safer together after all. You're right that image of Earl and Rich had scarred him, and in the end after Jack's death, part of Ennis's "Jack, I swear", which of course as we discussed in another topic means many things all condensed into three words, but part of that for sure meant that he was sorry he couldn't have been there for Jack.

[lancecowboy]

I don't believe he demanded it to be true either. He didn't want to think that the person he loved so much was killed in such a horrible way, but his fear of course made him believe that is how Jack was killed, and it was also the pain of Jack suffering what Ennis had tried so hard so protect both himself and Jack from all those years. It's like he felt Jack's pain, and also the pain of how he had hurt Jack, that he should have just listened and gone to live with him, because they would have been safer together after all. You're right that image of Earl and Rich had scarred him, and in the end after Jack's death, part of Ennis's "Jack, I swear", which of course as we discussed in another topic means many things all condensed into three words, but part of that for sure meant that he was sorry he couldn't have been there for Jack.

I agree. I think it's why Ang Lee made the right decision, to leave out the scenes of Jack meeting up with Randall in the gay station, etc. Its absence make the movie follow what was in the shortstory, leaving the interpretation ambiguous, and emphasizing the internal struggle within Ennis, seeing the tire iron in his mind, instead of making it real.

The pain and guilt of grief made it inevitable that Ennis felt regret, for not being with Jack, all 'em years, and made his transformation in Lightning Flats more poignant, than if Jack was really murdered, and the murderers got away with the crime. What's important, in my opinion, is Ennis' regret, not the cause of Jack's death.

[aintfoolin]

As a young child, Ennis suffered two traumatic events, his father taking him to see Earl dead, a victim of a hate crime by homophobes. Then the deaths of both his parents. How Ennis dealt with these two events may have shaped a big part of who Ennis became as an adult. imho, the trauma was never dealt with at all. There were no child  phsychologists to help Ennis find closure regarding the events  or comfort other than a brother and sister who were also left to find their own way.. I can only imagine the  pain ,fear he must have felt. Could it be that  Ennis may have connected love and stability with death and/punishment?

 I just feel that Ennis was taught to hate by his father, but hate as well as love is a personal matter. A reflection of one's own inners feelings concerning  a set of events outside one's control.  I don't feel Ennis ever  hated gays but felt a part of himself carried much fear for/of them. I think he hated the events that led to that fear, not the people involved that incuded his father. Fear that the same fate as Earl would befall he or Jack if he dared to love openly /freely and was the basis for his secrecy and lonesomeness.

 He meant to protect, but ironically,  it is the same fear that prevented him being there for Jack when Jack needed him most. He could not reconcile fear and love. When Jack died, it was his worst fear realized and made it almost impossible to not feel Jack was murdered the way he envisioned. This is what I meant when I said Ennis's fears within  commanded him at that point regardless of what Loreen said.

[lancecowboy]

You made some good points, aintfoolin. The death of his parents came close behind the murder. He had a year of junior high, so there was probably no more than three to four years separating the two traumatic events.

We don't know for sure how Ennis felt, nor how he dealt with these events. We can only be certain that the first terrorized him, probably forever, and the second made him feel guilty and lonely. I suspect the times being what they were, Ennis was simply left alone to deal with it as best he could. He probably simply bottled up his feelings and tried to ignore them, carrying on with the daily chores. Not much drama happens in the quiet rural setting.

His brother and sister were probably no help, since the short story told of his brother bullying him, until he stood up for himself. Ennis was never loved like Jack was by his Ma. That's for sure.

I don't know if Ennis hated queers, or simply avoided being labeled as one. To hate is to be on the offensive, seeking out victims for gay-bashing. To avoid it is to be on the defensive, to avoid the fate of being a victim.

I don't know if Ennis wanted to protect Jack from being killed. I think he was more concerned with himself, and Jack just happened to be in the picture. And of course, as you all pointed out, the irony of this so call protecting himself from gay-bashing resulted in endless pain and suffering, first for Jack, and later for himself.

[aintfoolin]

You made some good points, aintfoolin. The death of his parents came close behind the murder. He had a year of junior high, so there was probably no more than three to four years separating the two traumatic events.

We don't know for sure how Ennis felt, nor how he dealt with these events. We can only be certain that the first terrorized him, probably forever, and the second made him feel guilty and lonely. I suspect the times being what they were, Ennis was simply left alone to deal with it as best he could. He probably simply bottled up his feelings and tried to ignore them, carrying on with the daily chores. Not much drama happens in the quiet rural setting.

His brother and sister were probably no help, since the short story told of his brother bullying him, until he stood up for himself. Ennis was never loved like Jack was by his Ma. That's for sure.

I don't know if Ennis hated queers, or simply avoided being labeled as one. To hate is to be on the offensive, seeking out victims for gay-bashing. To avoid it is to be on the defensive, to avoid the fate of being a victim.

I don't know if Ennis wanted to protect Jack from being killed. I think he was more concerned with himself, and Jack just happened to be in the picture. And of course, as you all pointed out, the irony of this so call protecting himself from gay-bashing resulted in endless pain and suffering, first for Jack, and later for himself.

 I agree with these great points lancecowboy thank you.. I imagine Ennis felt scared confused and well...shocked at these very tramatic events in his young life.  As you say Ennis most likely bottled it all up inside but never found closure. He withdrew into his own little world  and stayed there I think, trying to avoid the reality of the trauma. Perhaps this accounts for Ennis's "bursts" of violent anger when anyone ,  even Jack got too close for comfort.

I don't feel Ennis had any hate although his father tried desperatly to show him that he should. In fact Ennis may have become sympathetic to Earl and Rich's plight realizing the situation he found himself in with Jack, but not enough to ranch up and suffer their fate.. Death had taken so much from him, his innocence, his parents, then in the end, his precious Jack, the love of his life. In each instance Ennis had nowhere or no one to turn to in order to find closure. We saw much anger and easy tears from him. The only clear  outward expression of his deep emotional scars..

I do feel he feared for Jack's safety as well as his own. When he showed jealousy and anger at Jack's unfaithfulness in Mexico, I think he felt Jack careless and dangerous  to involve others. Of course he wanted to protect himself, but Jack being an extension of himself in love made him fear for both their lives.MHO

[lancecowboy]

I do feel he feared for Jack's safety as well as his own. When he showed jealousy and anger at Jack's unfaithfulness in Mexico, I think he felt Jack careless and dangerous  to involve others. Of course he wanted to protect himself, but Jack being an extension of himself in love made him fear for both their lives.MHO

I am not sure Ennis was angry over a safety issue, with Jack going to Mexico.

  I honestly don't know for sure what Ennis felt when he got so angry and jealous over Jack going to Mexico.

On the one hand, perhaps Ennis heard about the easy prostitutes in Mexico, and warned Jack about "catching something". It's a common reaction for spouses who find cheating husbands and wives, in today's dangerous social environment.

On the other hand, in 'em earlier days, when STD are not so prevalent, perhaps Ennis was simply angry over Jack's unfaithfulness, after all, he was devoted to Jack, and felt that Jack's affairs was being unfaithful. Ennis told Jack before their FNIT that he hadn't had the opportunity to be the sinner that Jack implied himself to be. In the short story, Ennis also confessed in Motel Siesta that he only think of Jack, and no one else. I think Jack at some point implied that he, too, was only into Ennis and no one else. However, I confess that I don't recall exactly where that implication can be found. In any case, it's common enough, for people in a relationship to get jealous over the potential loss of love and affection.

Fear of disease? Jealous? Fear for Jack's safety?

I don't what it was, but whatever it was, Ennis' abrupt eruption, threatening Jack, and stabbing him with his finger, was a shock, even to Jack. I think Alma might have an idea of this anger, from her expression in the store, when Ennis dropped off the kids so he could go tend to the cows that were calfing. Jack and Ennis never had much to disagree with in the past, except for the riverside scene, you ever got the feeling...? And moving to Texas.... But this anger was very different, very physical, almost leading to a fist fight, like that last afternoon on the mountain.

[aintfoolin]

Certainly Ennis was devoted to Jack, but perhaps that was the problem. Ennis was so caught up and possessive of Jack that he expected Jack to be forever faithful as he was, he found out Jack was not. Jack belonged to him. Jack's body belonged to him and Jack was sharing his body with someone other than him. To Jack it was just a sexual release, but to Ennis it was much more. Every thing Ennis had on the line concerning the relationship was at stake. a threat to everything Ennis  felt he had sacrificed for up until that point, it was all about Jack. The lies, the secrecy, even the failure of his marriage was tied to his love for Jack. I don't think Ennis was going to give up what he had with Jack without a fight, or at least some serious explaining.

Perhaps Ennis's anger stemmed from the guilt of his own shortcomings within the relationship, his inability to shake his fears and fully commit to Jack and ranch up. Ennis had serious expectations of Jack, but it seems those expectations did'nt extend to what Jack wanted from him. He was so excruciatingly  deep. ...but I loved him.

[athena0204]

I agree that Ennis was definitely not like his father. He wasn't a hateful monster like that. He was a gentle soul who could never hurt anyone. His fear was deep-rooted however, and it's what set the stage for the rest of this life for him, until Jack's death when he realizes how destructive his fear had  been to him and how much he's unintentionally hurt Jack by denying him what they both deserved. And I definitely believe his fear was also for Jack as well as himself. When he first tells the story of Earl and Rich to him, it's clear that he's thinking about the safety of both himself and Jack. The way Jack reached out to him and comforted him was something he'd never felt before from any other person. He never thought someone would understand the pain, fear, and emotional scarring that experience had caused him, so it meant everything to him that Jack was so kind and compassionate. Jack was also the first person of course that showed the same sympathy for Earl and Rich that I believe Ennis had always felt. So I do believe he was concerned for the safety of both of them, even though being apart would make them miserable, Ennis saw no other way and felt powerless to change things, that's what he means by "If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it." As for the Mexico part, I believe it was mostly because Ennis felt very hurt by Jack being unfaithful to him. Ennis loved Jack deeply, and he had remained faithful to Jack, so he felt Jack should do the same. Any person who truly loves another person will be deeply hurt and upset by that person being unfaithful to them. Ennis didn't understand that Jack's flings with other men didn't mean anything, and they were simply the way Jack used to numb his pain of being apart from the one person he needed, Ennis. Of course it was very hurtful to Ennis that Jack had sex with other men, and Jack tried to explain the reason for it, but it didn't do much to abate Ennis's hurt. So yes, most of that is from Ennis's hurt, but I do  believe part of it had to be from fear of Jack being so careless as well. Remember that Ennis sometimes reacted outwardly in ways that were different from what he was truly feeling inside. This, like the fight on the last day during the first summer, is another example. Throughout the whole last conversation, Ennis isn't voicing what he's truly feeling, he's simply hinting at them, expecting Jack to realize what he means, and what he truly feels, just like he did back then. It is not until he can no longer hold back his tears, till Jack comes up to embrace him and take him in his arms and comfort him, that Ennis shows what he's truly feeling on the inside during that conversation.

[lancecowboy]

Thanks, Athena, aintfoolin, for you insights into Ennis' feelings and motivation at the final confrontation over Jack going to Mexico. I think you all hit the nail on the head.