Topic: "Ol' Brokeback got us good."

[aintfoolin]

Thanks AF!

Liked the bold part.

I personally don't see the statement so comforting... maybe because it was one of the most hurting places at the beginning of my PBS... I feel that statement as something so fatal, so dark... As if something had happened which destroyed them, although it was supposed to be the most beautiful thing ever - the LOVE! Oh, so sad!!!!

Perhaps it could be comforting in the fact that they had Brokeback experiences to look back upon, and maybe represented a hope that Jack had, a hope that was reaffirmed after four long years that Ennis still loved and desired him despite  marriage. Affirmation for Jack that what Ennis felt for him was as strong as ever and never wavered.. The reception he got from Ennis once he saw him again told him that Ennis's heart  was still his. ( So much heart and soul in that kiss). 

Brokeback grabbed ahold of both of them and never let go. It maybe so that Ennis and his inner conflicts was'nt going to make it easy for Jack, but I like to beleive that they treasured every moment they had together. I think the sad part was that Jack finally began to  realize that even though he knew Brokeback changed Ennis, he could not get Ennis to embrace the same freedom being on isolated Brokeback allowed him. MO.

[tpe]

Well,I understand what you mean,and,the same than Thomas,I don't know if "comforting" is the right word here...On one hand,it's comforting because it was what remained of these happy times; a love that made them feel well,by loving and being love.But on the other hand,the place and the feeling that was born there,is like a double edged sword.-if the meaning hasn't been lost in translation...-because it forced to be prisoners in a golden cage,that never was going to break so that they could live this love freely.This kind of willing captives,in sum.Yes,it's so sad...

It is a double-edged sword, isn't it?    It cuts you even as you try to get a grip on it from either side...  The metaphore is quite apt!

[myprivatejack]

It is a double-edged sword, isn't it?    It cuts you even as you try to get a grip on it from either side...  The metaphore is quite apt!

  Thomas ¡ You have said it admirably; It cuts you even as you try to get a grip on it from either side... It's like the "With Or without you",the illness and the healing,the problem and the solution...Something that you long for when you are away and that disturbs you when it's by your side.There's an Spanish song that says:-With or without you my problems a solution;with you because you're killing me and without you because I'm dying..."This was surely what Old Brokeback Mountain was for both Ennis and Jack; something that keeps on it their best memories of their best moments together,but also their worst nightmares.For example,the one of not being able to live again these moments,more than in a little dosis during 20 years.

[tpe]

Thomas ¡ You have said it admirably; It cuts you even as you try to get a grip on it from either side... It's like the "With Or without you",the illness and the healing,the problem and the solution...Something that you long for when you are away and that disturbs you when it's by your side.There's an Spanish song that says:-With or without you my problems a solution;with you because you're killing me and without you because I'm dying..."This was surely what Old Brokeback Mountain was for both Ennis and Jack; something that keeps on it their best memories of their best moments together,but also their worst nightmares.For example,the one of not being able to live again these moments,more than in a little dosis during 20 years.

What's the title of the song (in Spanish)?

Yes, Brokeback was certainly had this quality of being both a blessing and a curse.  "Old Brokeback got us good..." seems to revel and bemoan all in the same breath the power and the influence of the Mountain in their lives.  For better or for worse, they are defined as well as constrained by the experience of 63.

[myprivatejack]

What's the title of the song (in Spanish)?

Yes, Brokeback was certainly had this quality of being both a blessing and a curse.  "Old Brokeback got us good..." seems to revel and bemoan all in the same breath the power and the influence of the Mountain in their lives.  For better or for worse, they are defined as well as constrained by the experience of 63.

  It's an old "copla" by Rafael de Leon,based on an anonymous author,surely a popular one that people have conserved in an oral way.It has been sang by Manzanita,among others,but this version based on it is by Emilio José,and its title is "Ni contigo ni sin ti".

Ni contigo ni sin ti
Tienen mis males remedio
Contigo porque me matas
Sin ti porque yo me muero
Ni contigo ni sin ti.
Porque mi letra no ves
Piensas que de ti me olvido
Y en el fondo de mi pecho
Y a cada instante te escribo
Quisiera verte y no verte
Quisiera hablarte y no hablarte
Quisiera no conocerte
Para poder olvidarte.
Ay, ni contigo ni sin ti...


With or without you
my problems have a solution
with you because you're killing me
without you because I'm dying...
With or without you.
Because you can't see my letters
you think that I have forgotten you,
but inside my chest
at every moment I write to you.
I'd want to see you and not to see you,
I'd want to talk to you and not to talk to you,
I'd like not to have met you
So that I could forget you.
With or without you..


Can't this be said of Ennis and Jack?...

[myprivatejack]

What's the title of the song (in Spanish)?

Yes, Brokeback was certainly had this quality of being both a blessing and a curse.  "Old Brokeback got us good..." seems to revel and bemoan all in the same breath the power and the influence of the Mountain in their lives.  For better or for worse, they are defined as well as constrained by the experience of 63.

Coming back to the thread's subject ( mods...):Yes,totally...It's something that changed their lives,both in a positive and in a negative way; positively because they knew the real love,an experience that always is worth living.But negatively because this same blessing,as you say,gave them the best punishment; the one of can't be lived in a full sense.The one of being prisoners of some memories that will never be the same again.The one of keep on living of these memories from the past and their own wishes for the future,but almost never of realities in the present. But,as another Spanish song says:-It's better to love and after loose than never having loved.Wherever you'll be,I will remember you and you will stay with me".

[tpe]

I love the way you put it, MPJ.  Brokeback was both a remembrance and something that stayed with them always.

[myprivatejack]

I love the way you put it, MPJ.  Brokeback was both a remembrance and something that stayed with them always.

  Thomas ¡ Brokeback for both of them was something they must live with and without at the same time.

[tpe]

Thomas ¡ Brokeback for both of them was something they must live with and without at the same time.

One couldn't live with and without it -- that was the paradox.

[myprivatejack]

Coming back to this thread's tittle,I remember that when we watch BBM on TV almost a year ago,when Jack told these words:-"Ol' Brokeback got us good"-that in Spanish got translated as "OBBM gripped us well"-Alma said:-"Yes,it did.Even if not in the same way for both of them...".I have never asked her what she meant;I wanted to ask her immediately,but she told me to shut up because she wanted to hear well.Afterwards,I haven't,also because I don't want to seem "obsessed" before her eyes.But you,what do you think those words meant?.

[tpe]

Coming back to this thread's tittle,I remember that when we watch BBM on TV almost a year ago,when Jack told these words:-"Ol' Brokeback got us good"-that in Spanish got translated as "OBBM gripped us well"-Alma said:-"Yes,it did.Even if not in the same way for both of them...".I have never asked her what she meant;I wanted to ask her immediately,but she told me to shut up because she wanted to hear well.Afterwards,I haven't,also because I don't want to seem "obsessed" before her eyes.But you,what do you think those words meant?.

Very cryptic!

Is she implying that at that moment, Ennis was not really on the same plane as Jack when it came to the significance of their time on BBM?  Or did she imply the other way?  I would think she implied the former, given Ennis's later refusal to give in to the Sweet Life proposed by Jack.  But is this fair? 

[myprivatejack]

Very cryptic!

Is she implying that at that moment, Ennis was not really on the same plane as Jack when it came to the significance of their time on BBM?  Or did she imply the other way?  I would think she implied the former, given Ennis's later refusal to give in to the Sweet Life proposed by Jack.  But is this fair? 

I can't answer your questions,because it's me who has asked for its meaning... I don't know for sure,but I think she implied that,while for Jack BBM meant the discovering of real love,for Ennis meant firstly and mainly,the discovering of a facet of his way of being that marked him for life.But no,I don't think that thinking that way it's fair...

[tpe]

I can't answer your questions,because it's me who has asked for its meaning... I don't know for sure,but I think she implied that,while for Jack BBM meant the discovering of real love,for Ennis meant firstly and mainly,the discovering of a facet of his way of being that marked him for life.But no,I don't think that thinking that way it's fair...

So for Ennis, it was more like realizing a burden or handicap in life?  Or something like this, I guess.  There is certainly a difference in their attitudes, but I think in the case of Ennis, Brokeback signified both a liberation and a kind of condemnation -- to be marked for life, so to speak.

[myprivatejack]

So for Ennis, it was more like realizing a burden or handicap in life?  Or something like this, I guess.  There is certainly a difference in their attitudes, but I think in the case of Ennis, Brokeback signified both a liberation and a kind of condemnation -- to be marked for life, so to speak.

Well,anyhow these are not my words...;so,don't beat me,please ¡    I think,for what she said then,that she meant that for Ennis was realising that his homosexuality discovered in BBM would be,yes,a kind of burden or handicap in life.Because these happy times really showed him something he hated and refused in his innest self.It's just like you say:it meant being marked for life,due to his tendencies,what Jack didn't feel the same way.Well,we must recognize that she's a little right,if she really meant this...Although,for me,BBM means for both of them the discovering of the love of their lives.Period.

[tpe]

Well,anyhow these are not my words...;so,don't beat me,please ¡    I think,for what she said then,that she meant that for Ennis was realising that his homosexuality discovered in BBM would be,yes,a kind of burden or handicap in life.Because these happy times really showed him something he hated and refused in his innest self.It's just like you say:it meant being marked for life,due to his tendencies,what Jack didn't feel the same way.Well,we must recognize that she's a little right,if she really meant this...Although,for me,BBM means for both of them the discovering of the love of their lives.Period.

Ergo, she thought that Jack was a kind of liability to him [i.e., Ennis]?  Perhaps she questioned Ennis's sincerity, most especially in this scene where she made this comment...

[vedrana]

MPJ, I think you'd better ask her!!! You can tell it's me who asks coz you mentioned her words. Tell her I'm so eager to find out! 

And I am, damn!

 

[jake]

Owaah, so many thoughts

I don't think Ennis hated his sexuality, imo he was scared of the consequences. Someone said that they were not on the same plane: I think their point of view may differ but both of them cherished the BBM moments. I was rewatching SNIT scene and it really shows so many things.. Ennis is uncertain but in the end he enters the tent. He let down his barrier to Jack, he admitted he's different.
Jack reassuring words "It's okay, it's okay" show that Ennis IS scared. But he takes the risk..
He is aware of this "condemnation for life" thing but in the end joins Jack.

Really, a curse you can't live without..

Do you think they ever regretted their actions? My being wants to scream no, but..   

[vedrana]

Owaah, so many thoughts

I don't think Ennis hated his sexuality, imo he was scared of the consequences. Someone said that they were not on the same plane: I think their point of view may differ but both of them cherished the BBM moments. I was rewatching SNIT scene and it really shows so many things.. Ennis is uncertain but in the end he enters the tent. He let down his barrier to Jack, he admitted he's different.
Jack reassuring words "It's okay, it's okay" show that Ennis IS scared. But he takes the risk..
He is aware of this "condemnation for life" thing but in the end joins Jack.

Really, a curse you can't live without..

Do you think they ever regretted their actions? My being wants to scream no, but..   

Hey Jake!

I don't think they ever regretted Brokeback! It was just too gorgeous to regret!

The things happened on Brokeback were supposed to be left there. Ennis wanted to go home to his wife to be and have a normal life... but when Jack came back to his life, he lost it. The Reunion kiss showed that the time spent on Brokeback could never be erased!

SNIT? That's my favorite scene and it will always be!! I watched it hundreds of time... who knows how many? It is just that each time it got shorter and shorter... now it passes like a dream, in seconds of pure beauty.

Yet, Ennis did hate his sexuality, coz he was taught to hate it. He WAS afraid about the consequences, but there was a certain darkness in him, darkness made of the urge he carried in himself - a call for a death penalty! He hated the fact he couldn't resist that urge. It was killing him, little by little... finally it terminated him through Jack's death... Awfully sad... 

[jake]

I dunno about his hate towards own sexuality.. but when I look at it from another perspective, it does make sense when you interpret the last scene as a way of self acceptance 

You said he wanted to go home and have a normal life.. How could he if he didn't regret his/their actions?
And what's the definition of a normal life? Living in a lie like always? Deep inside he wanted to be with Jack, that's how I see it.

I wish English was my first language co I could express difficult feelings better LOL
ps. SNIT is one of my favs too And it's kinda sad 'coz I know BBM 'escapade' is coming to an end 

[vedrana]

He never called it Love... not until it was too late. He wanted to believe that it was only a game that the two of them played on Brokeback... nothing more.

Going back to the "normal life"... well, it was expected from him to marry, it was expected from him to have kids and to live with a woman - not man! THAT was normal life. And the year was 1963!!!!

I can't see it as a regretful thing, but something that maybe really destroyed him in the end. Hadn't it been for his love and sex with Jack, he would've never known that the things can be different. He would've been much more satisfied with his life. IN this way, knowing the passion that can took over him when he's with his man... he was never himself. He was living a life he didn't want any more. Not after Brokeback!

[jake]

This topic makes me depressed  

''Accidential fu**s'' huh? Quoting Jack..

But what AFTER their BBM time? It was still just a game for him?
Damn you Ennis, screw the whole world, the normal life and expectations of others!

Oh, one second. You touched an interesting subject. I wonder if he would've been satisfied with his life without Jack..
Maybe, maybe not.
Something I've found:
"In early childhood, the child uses its power to create its first achievement : a sense of identity based on sexuality. Power is invisible, since it is subconscious, but sexual impressions are conscious and can be explored. It is these impressions, these emotions and desires, that attach the child to the parents. So sexual attachments are the means by which the child tries to create its first sense of identity. Awareness of one’s own identity is the first step towards attaining self-awareness."

This kinda suits Ennis -> As a child he created his first sense of identity but his father actions (showing him how male lovers ended) and "morality" (Morality as an uncritical acceptance of social norms) overwhelmed/overburdened him?

So maybe he was always aware of his sexuality but tuned it out/didn't act upon it?
If the answer is positive...  I think he wouldn't be satisfied with his life. Always lacking something important.

Did that make any sense?

Conclusion:
I'm glad I was born in 80's and NOT in 60's. Like seriously...
We should move back in time and change their future!  

[tpe]

Interesting exchnage here! 

No need to feel depressed...

And Ennis is a survivor.  He would have survived (and will survive) a life without jack.  But finding happiness is another matter.

Perhaps happiness wasn't really the point for Ennis.  It became more about remembrance.  In that way, Brokeback got him good.

[vedrana]

This topic makes me depressed  

''Accidential fu**s'' huh? Quoting Jack..

But what AFTER their BBM time? It was still just a game for him?
Damn you Ennis, screw the whole world, the normal life and expectations of others!

Oh, one second. You touched an interesting subject. I wonder if he would've been satisfied with his life without Jack..
Maybe, maybe not.
Something I've found:
"In early childhood, the child uses its power to create its first achievement : a sense of identity based on sexuality. Power is invisible, since it is subconscious, but sexual impressions are conscious and can be explored. It is these impressions, these emotions and desires, that attach the child to the parents. So sexual attachments are the means by which the child tries to create its first sense of identity. Awareness of one’s own identity is the first step towards attaining self-awareness."

This kinda suits Ennis -> As a child he created his first sense of identity but his father actions (showing him how male lovers ended) and "morality" (Morality as an uncritical acceptance of social norms) overwhelmed/overburdened him?

So maybe he was always aware of his sexuality but tuned it out/didn't act upon it?
If the answer is positive...  I think he wouldn't be satisfied with his life. Always lacking something important.

Did that make any sense?

Conclusion:
I'm glad I was born in 80's and NOT in 60's. Like seriously...
We should move back in time and change their future!  

      How are the things now in Poland with homosexuality? 

Hm... about Ennis's idea of Brokeback... I don't think that he took is just as an accidental fu*k! Nope! But he definitely believed that it'll pass. He couldn't know how fiercely Brokeback got him!!! If not for Brokeback, he'd surely be ore satisfied with his life. Maybe never completely, but satisfied enough not to ruin his marriage.

Brokeback was his passion and his condemnation, his love and his hatred, his strength and his weakness...

[jake]

 
Well, I'm not sure  It depends on the person, but overall not bad. I don't have much experience and I'm 'b(i)etween' so 
And I hate these stupid classifications, as well as words gay, les and bi! Everyone's different so we shouldn't label people.
<end of rant  >


As someone said, it's a paradox...
Quoting you Loreen: "It's his passion and at the same time condemnation."

[vedrana]

Well, I'm not sure  It depends on the person, but overall not bad. I don't have much experience and I'm 'b(i)etween' so 
And I hate these stupid classifications, as well as words gay, les and bi! Everyone's different so we shouldn't label people.
<end of rant  >


As someone said, it's a paradox...
Quoting you Loreen: "It's his passion and at the same time condemnation."

That's good enough!   For now!

OK, Off Topic mod is over, mods! 

[myprivatejack]

Owaah, so many thoughts

I don't think Ennis hated his sexuality, imo he was scared of the consequences. Someone said that they were not on the same plane: I think their point of view may differ but both of them cherished the BBM moments. I was rewatching SNIT scene and it really shows so many things.. Ennis is uncertain but in the end he enters the tent. He let down his barrier to Jack, he admitted he's different.
Jack reassuring words "It's okay, it's okay" show that Ennis IS scared. But he takes the risk..
He is aware of this "condemnation for life" thing but in the end joins Jack.

Really, a curse you can't live without..

Do you think they ever regretted their actions? My being wants to scream no, but..   

IMO Ennis hated his sexuality because,as Loreen says,he was taught to hate it before he had some experience in it; and after that,because he knew he was feeling something damned by society and,as a consequence,that could put his life in danger,according to those learnings.I have sometimes said that he even hated himself for having these tendencies and that he hated Jack for the way he made him feel,for "forcing" him to feel it...; as a rather logical reaction of who lives in a continuous and permanent contradiction,as Ennis did.He didn't want to feel the way he felt,but he knew-even if he tried to deny it all his life-that it was the only way he felt alive,he felt loved,he felt himself.
So,of course,I don't think that he regretted his actions and the time spent in Brokeback,because,in spite of himself,they were the only happy and real moments in his life.He only tried to tell to himself that those times were like a mirage in the dessert of love that his life had been up to that moment; for this reason,coming down from the mountain was a return to reality,to the life me must to live according to society and he tried to accomplish these rules living "as a man must do",with a wife and some children.Period.Even if he surely remembered many times those happy months in the mountain,only Jack's arrival after four years of separation,made him realise it had been much more than just a dream,a youth's adventure due to loneliness.Surely for this,he was in a fight against himself half his life...

[aintfoolin]

 I feel there is no better example that "Ol Brokeback got us good" than in the reunion scene.

 It was post-Brokeback and 4 years had gone by. I think Jack was fully realizing the impact of Brokeback when he coined the phrase, while  lying in bed, finally reunited with his love,and thinking  of the reception he unexpectedly got from his normally reserved Ennis after  he'd redlined it to Wyoming on hope and a prayer.,  It was that look on Jack's face as he was pushed  back against the wall and practically devoured by Ennis as if he really could not stop himself if he wanted to.  Jack said "4 yrs", and Ennis was like "yeah, 4 yrs." ...and still... it was Jack and Ennis, Ennis and Jack, like two peas in a pod.

  Ennis was in the moment* long before Jack even got there and it showed, so pumped up with  anticipation of seeing Jack again. There he was, sitting there waiting, beer after beer, smoke after smoke, hearing Alma speak about gettin a babysitter or something but not really hearing her words, the nervous jitter in his knee, not realizing his beer bottle was empty before he turned it up!,  etc... , staring out the window, totally focused on Jack's arrival. ( excellent acting by Heath).. Jack was right, Ol Brokeback got em  both good. MO.

[vedrana]

Good points Aintfoolin... maybe only to add this - Jack was also in the mood, anticipating and hoping for Ennis's passion.

Swear to God I didn't know we was going to get into this again.***

*** Yes, I did.  Red-lined it here all the way....couldn't get here fast enough.

 

[mimi1996]

Wow, Everyone in this thread has made some geat comments 

IMO, though, Ennis and Jack were soulmates - inseparable, two peas in a pod. They completed each other.

However, I think that their being on Brokeback Mountain, being so elusive and free and solitary, was the reason that they ever acted upon their love for one another. I think it is fair to say that, had they not the privacy of the mountain, it would have been impossible for the unlikely lovers to ever express or act upon their feelings, given the time and place

[tpe]

Wow, Everyone in this thread has made some geat comments 

IMO, though, Ennis and Jack were soulmates - inseparable, two peas in a pod. They completed each other.

However, I think that their being on Brokeback Mountain, being so elusive and free and solitary, was the reason that they ever acted upon their love for one another. I think it is fair to say that, had they not the privacy of the mountain, it would have been impossible for the unlikely lovers to ever express or act upon their feelings, given the time and place

So true.  They could only be themselves in the both the isolation and freedom of the Mountain.  Doesn't this sound contradictory?  BBM was both liberator and prison for both of them...  In its confines, they could be themselves, but they could never be themselves outside of it.