Topic: Did Jack ever say 'I love you' to Ennis?

[FlwrChild]

I would agree with this also.

And imo Jack couldn't say "I love you" to Ennis. Look how hard it was for him just to say "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it." I think he knew Ennis's limitations as far as what he was willing to acknowledge about what their relationship really was. Deep down inside, they may have both known that what they felt was love, but until Jack died and Ennis found the shirts, I don't think he was willing to look that closely into his own heart and call that "thing" of theirs romantic love. Jack knew not to spook his horse with those direct words.

I also think that both of them 'said' I love you in a million other non verbal ways over the years, as has been discussed. And it is probably those things, especially knowing it was the only way they could say I love you to each other, that we find so endearing.

[myprivatejack]

I would agree with this also.

And imo Jack couldn't say "I love you" to Ennis. Look how hard it was for him just to say "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it." I think he knew Ennis's limitations as far as what he was willing to acknowledge about what their relationship really was. Deep down inside, they may have both known that what they felt was love, but until Jack died and Ennis found the shirts, I don't think he was willing to look that closely into his own heart and call that "thing" of theirs romantic love. Jack knew not to spook his horse with those direct words.

I also think that both of them 'said' I love you in a million other non verbal ways over the years, as has been discussed. And it is probably those things, especially knowing it was the only way they could say I love you to each other, that we find so endearing.

I agree,Barb¡.   Both of them are more demonstrative in facts-or as you say,non verbal ways...-that in real words over the years they spent together.And I think also that only a deep lack of trust in Ennis commitment-not necessarily in his love or whatever they could or wanted call it-,was what didn't allow Jack to be more expressive about his feelings,he ,who was a open kind of person...However,I keep on saying that I'd express the question by changing "Jack" for "Ennis"; because this non verbal ways of showing love were more often than advisable,clearer in the first one than in the second one,IMO.

[babytammy7]

Ennis said that he was not queer, still he could have sex with another man, because "that" was not an impossible wrong thing to happen between lonely guys. That was possible, that was a reality, but it only has to do with sexual need, not with feelings or what you like or what you wish...That was nothing queer..

But to love another man? Yeah, that was queer!! Only gay guys do "that". Ennis saw himself like a straight man, and straight men only love women; well, in fact, I think that Ennis thought that two men could NOT love each other; "that" was an impossible thing, it could not happen, and if so, well, it must be a very wrong thing then.....

I think that Jack understood all of this, all of what was inside Ennis head. He couldn't say "I love you" because that made Ennis freak out, that showed Ennis that he, Jack, was queer indeed and that was something Ennis didn't want to know nor hear, and sure he was unable to understand it....And then, if he was with a queer boy who loved him, that didn't make him queer too? What is worst, if Ennis realized that what Jack felt was love, maybe he started to wonder if what he was feeling was love too, because he stood by Jack's side 20 years, and well, if Jack said that it was love....
Ennis was not ready for that, was not ready to hear about love, and I don't think that he even knew what that meant for sure, not until the shirts. Jack learned to read Ennis through the years, he knew that he couldn't say it...but still he felt the painful need to do it, so he said that "Miss you so much I can hardly stand it"...but he only got silence, and it hurt; so well, Jack knew once again that he was right: Ennis was not ready to hear that. Maybe it hurt Ennis too, because loving someone doesn't mean that you have to do something about it for you and for the one that loves you and is hurting because of you, instead of being sitting there like a fool, scared to death, confused and unable to see what is in front of you?

Well, just rambling a little.  Thank you.

[FlwrChild]

That's it exactly Tammy and mpj. 

[aintfoolin]

All wonderful posts FlowereChild, MPG, and BabyTammy. I agree  with all of them. . Jack did say he loved Ennis , not verbally those exact words but showed his  undeniable love for Ennis in so many ways.

FloweChild is right, because Ennis would have probably gotten spooked. Hearing those words just would'nt jive with what he felt his role was in the relationship. Jack read him very well.

MPJ spoke of Jack as more *expressive, more open , part of his basic personality, yet here, he found himself having to show his love in a more quiet, subdued fashion. He had to hold back the way he verbally expressed it. A clue that Jack was *tuned into Ennis, and tragically it is a sign that Jack had to limit himself in many other ways, all because he fell in love with Ennis.

You read my mind girl. Jack knew he could'nt say it, nor did he have to.  Not out loud, Ennis just could'nt handle hearing something like "I love You" from another man, ( Like FlowerChild says , a little too "direct")  but I do feel that Ennis  knew that this thing  showed  all the signs of it being love. What ever Ennis understands that to be.  He named what they had and  felt "this thing".  He just was'nt gonna admit anything  about it being love to himself or Jack. Jack kept coming back despite Ennis's denial. No matter how painful it must have been to know that Ennis, whom he loved, denied the part of himself that he knew loved him back. Jack understood Ennis much more than Ennis understood himself .  That was something he could never  let go of.   Jack has always loved Ennis and I beleive Ennis always loved Jack though neither could name it love for different reasons., it remained unspoken. Even if Jack lived and never said "I love you" to Ennis verbally, Ennis felt loved by Jack and to him maybe that's all that mattered. MO. Thanx.

[FlwrChild]

.....Jack knew he could'nt say it, nor did he have to.  Not out loud, Ennis just could'nt handle hearing something like "I love You" from another man, ( Like FlowerChild says , a little too "direct")  but I do feel that Ennis  knew that this thing  showed  all the signs of it being love. What ever Ennis understands that to be.  He named what they had and  felt "this thing".  He just was'nt gonna admit anything  about it being love to himself or Jack. Jack kept coming back despite Ennis's denial. No matter how painful it must have been to know that Ennis, whom he loved, denied the part of himself that he knew loved him back. Jack understood Ennis much more than Ennis understood himself .  That was something he could never  let go of.   Jack has always loved Ennis and I beleive Ennis always loved Jack though neither could name it love for different reasons., it remained unspoken. Even if Jack lived and never said "I love you" to Ennis verbally, Ennis felt loved by Jack and to him maybe that's all that mattered. MO. Thanx.

This is so well said!

[lancecowboy]

Good question and response from everyone here.

I think Ennis' perception of love was distorted by the homophobia that was pounded into him. It took him twenty years of Jack's devotion to wake him up to the meaning of love. It took him seeing the genuine heartbreak in Cassie to understanding the meaning of love.  It took him Jack's death, his own grief, and seeing Jack's Ma's acceptance, Jack's devotion materialized in the two shirts that hugged each other for twenty years. Love was a force of nature, but human hatred was also a monster in the movie.

I guess love conquered all, in the end, even though it was too late for Jack. Ennis was freed by love, and I have no doubt he would have said it to Jack, if they were to meet up again after the break up. Ennis was ready, finally, to move to the next level.

[tpe]

I guess love conquered all, in the end, even though it was too late for Jack. Ennis was freed by love, and I have no doubt he would have said it to Jack, if they were to meet up again after the break up. Ennis was ready, finally, to move to the next level.

The conversation with Jr. in the final scene does seem to indicate that Ennis would have said it, knowing what he now knew.

[Matt Nasty]

The conversation with Jr. in the final scene does seem to indicate that Ennis would have said it, knowing what he now knew.

i think so too

[myprivatejack]

The conversation with Jr. in the final scene does seem to indicate that Ennis would have said it, knowing what he now knew.

Yes,I think too Ennis was ready to express his feelings in loud voice;in spite of himself,if only it was before the fear of losing Jack.Or that any other man could take his place in his heart and bed,that's the same more or less...The cruel paradox of the story is that he decided to change his mind for fear too late,when he had already lost it for real...

[tpe]

i think so too

Yes,I think too Ennis was ready to express his feelings in loud voice;in spite of himself,if only it was before the fear of losing Jack.Or that any other man could take his place in his heart and bed,that's the same more or less...The cruel paradox of the story is that he decided to change his mind for fear too late,when he had already lost it for real...

But it wasn't too late to impart the truth of love to his daughter. 

I also want to say that the 2 shirts in the closet can be interpreted as Jack telling Ennis there and then that he loved him.  And I think Ennis understood.

[myprivatejack]

But it wasn't too late to impart the truth of love to his daughter. 

I also want to say that the 2 shirts in the closet can be interpreted as Jack telling Ennis there and then that he loved him.  And I think Ennis understood.

AMEN TO THIS¡  (     

[tpe]

Thanks MPJ. 

So in a posthumous sense, we can say that Jack did say it -- via the shirts in the closet...

[myprivatejack]

Thanks MPJ. 

So in a posthumous sense, we can say that Jack did say it -- via the shirts in the closet...

I think that finding the shirts of the closet was both of them way to say "I love you":Jack,by showing he had maintained a kind of altar to Ennis during all those years;Ennis,by discovering them at the same time that Jack's love for him and realising that "this thing" he felt was love too.A kind of silent love's statement,then.

[Matt Nasty]

I think that finding the shirts of the closet was both of them way to say "I love you":Jack,by showing he had maintained a kind of altar to Ennis during all those years;Ennis,by discovering them at the same time that Jack's love for him and realising that "this thing" he felt was love too.A kind of silent love's statement,then.

[FlwrChild]

Oh yes! I love these interpretations.

[myprivatejack]

Oh yes! I love these interpretations.

Oh,thank you,Barb ¡   Well,there're several ways of saying "I love you" and often the verbal one is the most meaningless,isn't it?...

[tpe]

I think that finding the shirts of the closet was both of them way to say "I love you":Jack,by showing he had maintained a kind of altar to Ennis during all those years;Ennis,by discovering them at the same time that Jack's love for him and realising that "this thing" he felt was love too.A kind of silent love's statement,then.

Yes, I think when Ennis embraced the shirts when he found them in jack's closet, he was, through this very action, "saying" I love you to Jack. 

[FlwrChild]

Yep, most definitely.

[Matt Nasty]

Yes, I think when Ennis embraced the shirts when he found them in jack's closet, he was, through this very action, "saying" I love you to Jack. 

agreed!

[tpe]

So, would a number of us agree that Jack perhaps never said "I love you" verbally/explicitly, but in substance, he did?

[myprivatejack]

So, would a number of us agree that Jack perhaps never said "I love you" verbally/explicitly, but in substance, he did?

Of course,completely.His acts spoke more and clearly than his words.

[Matt Nasty]

So, would a number of us agree that Jack perhaps never said "I love you" verbally/explicitly, but in substance, he did?

i think the majority of us would agree with this! i certainly do!

[babytammy7]

So, would a number of us agree that Jack perhaps never said "I love you" verbally/explicitly, but in substance, he did?

No a simple doubt in my heart, Thomas!! He did it!! Oh God, and how beautifully he said it through all those 20 years!! 

[tpe]

I do think that the scene in the closet can be read as a declaration of love by both Ennis and Jack -- wordless and, for jack, posthumous.

[FlwrChild]

Most definitely. The story couldn't be complete, and neither could they, without it.

[manhattangirl]

I think Ennis finally "got it" in the closet.  He finally heard what Jack was telling him all those years.  That Jack loved him from that first summer till his death, and never stopped loving him.  Of course it had to be overwhelming, to have someone keep two old blood stained shirts, your blood, a part of you.   If this doesn't say "I Love You" what does?  This goes beyond words.

[tpe]

If this doesn't say "I Love You" what does?  This goes beyond words.

I personally think that trh shirts were stronger and more meaningful than saying "I love you" verbally.  Poeple can lie or not mean it when they say those words.  The shirst and the blood don't lie.

[babytammy7]

I personally think that trh shirts were stronger and more meaningful than saying "I love you" verbally.  Poeple can lie or not mean it when they say those words.  The shirst and the blood don't lie.

Totally and utterly agree!!! So well said, Thomas!!  ( ( ( (

You know that saying, I don't know how to say it in English, but here is something like "You have prove things with facts, not with words".

[myprivatejack]

I personally think that trh shirts were stronger and more meaningful than saying "I love you" verbally.  Poeple can lie or not mean it when they say those words.  The shirst and the blood don't lie.

I agree,Thomas¡.These are some proofs of love that are powerful than words;even if these words are real and true,sometimes are a little worn out.The actions is what matters and what means beyond any words.