Topic: Jack led his dual life more "cleverly"

[haveacrush]

oh well .. all jack fanatics will thrash me for this  but in some way Jack had led his dual life (balancing family and the other "affair(s)" ) more "cleverly   " than ennis. while ennis was "nothing, nowhere" jack was not , was it because :

a) Jack was rather lucky having rich wife and in-laws

b) Jack was more optimistic and positive

c) Jack was the who was more comfortable in his relationship with ennis and in his undestanding of his own sexuality

d) because he "celeverly and smartly managed" stuff and ennis might not be his evrything.

e) Because ALma accidentally saw the two but Lureen never knew a word
(this could again be due to Lureen's indifference towards her husband or jack's "smart' way of covering up the former being more appropriate reason)

or was it that even jack was "nothing, nowhere" deep inside....

your thoughts ??

[rdx]

There's no one to be trashed: a vital sign of a community is that its members can disagree with respect.

And I don't even disagree: your points are very interesting.

I'd pick definitely b) and c); a) also helped in practice. d) too, I think Jack was always ready to meet Ennis despite him being the only combine (harvester) salesman.. Ennis was Jack's everything but after 20 years of rejection of living together...

What did Lureen know? There's an interesting discussion going on elsewhere.

Externally Jack was much more than 'nothing, nowhere' but internally he may have been as lost as Ennis was.

[rdx]

haveacrush, your subject 'dual life' is mentioned in the scene selection of the Italian DVD, la doppia vita:

[haveacrush]

haveacrush, your subject 'dual life' is mentioned in the scene selection of the Italian DVD, la doppia vita:

what is that all about ?

[myprivatejack]

I don't know if I'd say that Jack led his dual life more cleverly...What I'd say,and I say,is that Jack knew much better who he was and who he wanted; and what's better,how to get it,at least if it depends only on him-what unluckily,didn't...-.From this starting point,is easier to be prepared to lead a dual life and/or to fight for the kind of live one really wishes.
Of course,the fact that he was married to a rich woman made circumstances easier too-remember Ennis last confrontation words about his need of accepting any job he was offered to-.However,things not always happen as one would like to and,in this sense,no matter how prepared or aware of himself Jack was; in his innest being,I think he was as "nothing,nowhere"as Ennis-you remarked very well,by the way-.During several years,because he couldn't live without Ennis,but he couldn't live with him either,what destroyed all his world,because his world was Ennis.And in the end of their relationship,because he realised he could never get what we had wanted to live the life he had longed for;and,yes,maybe as you also say,Ennis had begun to be not his everything after so many years of rejections and broken dreams,surely in spite of himself.
Rdx has said it very clearly; Externally Jack was much more than 'nothing, nowhere' but internally he may have been as lost as Ennis was. That's right ¡.What he was externally was a simple matter of an open character,but what he was internally was a matter of feelings...

[haveacrush]

Thanks for your interesting insights- rdx and privatejack. frankly speaking "cleverly" is not the word, no "smartly" also wont fit and would be too cheap words for Jack, so running out of words, i chose to put the word within inverted commas.

when i am relooking at my own topic i can understand there are too many things which just cannot be put in a), b), c) ..etc. points. There are honest emotions , passions, longings at one side and hard realities on the other side, but it is Ennis's rejection of truth that had made his life more miserable compared to Jack.

Of Course Jack had a rich wife, his wife was not only rich but also quite indifferent, independent and rather cold(she used to look after the business - was shown to do that while jack was never shown to be doing any such stuff, yes rdx, I was following the discussion on whether lureen knew or not after you mentioned about it.) All these had made Jack's life rather easier. Starking difference when we see Alma who although was working "clung" to ennis- she depended on him immensely. After the divorce, Ennis still had responsibility towards his daughters, and all of it was not mere obligations for him, he actually was a good, loving and responsible father.

But Jack never felt any particular comfort in being a rich woman's husband. During their reunion meet, Jack said "What if you and me had a little ranch somewhere, a little cow-and-calf operation, it'd be a sweet life.  I mean, hell, Lureen's old man, you bet he'd give me a down payment if I'd get lost.  I mean, he more or less already said it" so he was quite ready to give up everything.

Ennis had to face financial problems, he was not comfortable with himself, did not understand himself , he was afraid, haunted, was madly in love (with Jack), suppressed his feelings and wanted to do the impossible task of balancing everything all at the same time. And then again he would not himself break the "ain't queer" pact and would not want jack to break that either. He forced himself to be a “normal family man”, because he was comfortable with the stereotype

JAck was never comfortable with the topic "Alma". He articulated it always. In the beginning – in ’63 during the early days of the relationship you would remenber he changed topic whenever Ennis mentioned "Alma", during reunion he asked Ennis "You and Alma, that's a life?" and then of course after Ennis' divorce he drove all the way straight in the hope that he could win back Ennis. He was Jealous of the other person (woman) in his man's life .. and no hiding of that feeling all the way

Ennis never had (or is it that he never showed?!) such feelings towards Lureen-Jack relationship. He reminded Jack " You know, you got your wife and baby in Texas, and you know, I got my life in Riverton". He asks if everything is "normal between Jack and Lureen" and would be assured if everything was normal. He laughed when Jack was hinting at an affair with another woman. But he was furious when he got an indication that Jack might be interested in other men. DUring the final confrontation "Well, have you been to Mexico, Jack?  'Cause I hear what they got in Mexico for boys like you ?"

Ennis considered himself "not queer" but hinting at Jack being queer ? (boys like you ) !!! this was what i think hights of not understanding oneself or to put it in a better way - trying not to admit the truth which even he knows is true- this was the strangest diaogue from Ennis and may be this complete rejection of the realiy made his life miserable. it is like saying this part of my body is not mine. A serious question comes in my mind - did in his subconscious mind ennis thought that he was "not queer" and jack "who was queer" dragged him into this ?

i wonder why jack did not respond to ennis and wake him up to reality.. may be he was too much in love with him and knew that waking him up may destroy him and the relationship.

[lancecowboy]

I just found this thread. Very interesting discussion going on.

There's no one to be trashed: a vital sign of a community is that its members can disagree with respect.

And I don't even disagree: your points are very interesting.

I'd pick definitely b) and c); a) also helped in practice. d) too, I think Jack was always ready to meet Ennis despite him being the only combine (harvester) salesman.. Ennis was Jack's everything but after 20 years of rejection of living together...

What did Lureen know? There's an interesting discussion going on elsewhere.

Externally Jack was much more than 'nothing, nowhere' but internally he may have been as lost as Ennis was.

Well said, rdx. But I don't necessarily agree with all of it.

First of all, financial pressures can be a problem for Ennis, and financial freedom means Jack can come and go as he pleased, driving 14 hours each way a few times a year, going off to Mexico when he needed to, and as seen in the deleted scene, getting presents for Ennis once in a while, and at the least, getting himself a warm parka. Ennis had to wear the same Jacket for 20 years, going no further than running in circle around the coffee pot. That little apple pie in the diner when Cassie walked in, Ennis looked like he was enjoying it like it was a real treat. It probably was. He didn't get much luxury in life. That must have weighed on the man.

Secondly, Jack was happy go lucky in a way because he was a little lucky in life, ending up with Lureen, and Bobby, while Ennis ending up with two girls while he always wanted to have a little boy, to teach him how to be a cowboy. In a way, time with Jack in the mountain is Ennis living his boyhood dream, and fulfilling his dream of being the big man that his son would look up to. Except for that, Ennis probably felt his life was always ended up with the short end, losing his parents, ignored by his brother and sister, ending up with Alma who always wanted more material things from him, which he struggled to provide, living in a small town, with all its downfalls, but none of the positives that Ennis wanted... Jack had something to be optimistic and happy about, whereas Ennis was just being realistic.

Thirdly, Jack was indeed the better "people person" emotionally more grounded, in no small part thanks to Jack's Ma. Ennis was emotionally crushed by his Pa at the age of nine, bullied by his brother until he brutally fought back, and isolated from people, and in a way, from himself. Ennis was like a Vulcan in Star Trek...emotionally repressed, so definitely he was out of touch with who he was, emotionally. It's hard to manage one's life, emotional life, when one is out of touch with it.

Item d is a bit tricky. I am not sure I understand what is meant by "smartly and cleverly" because there is nothing to manage in terms of Jack's double life. Lureen was the smart one who managed all the finances for him, and obliged his drinking with staying away. Jack wasn't the smart one in the relationship, even he knew that. Lureen was the college graduate who wore the pants in the house. Jack was just along for the ride. I suppose if you meant he "compartmentalized" his life better, keeping his double life apart, that may be just the combination of (1) he could financially afford to run off a few times a year while Ennis had to quit his job to meet with Jack, (2) he drove the 14 hours each way, using the distance to keep Lureen from meeting with Ennis, while Alma was curious, and suspicious, of Jack, even before the kiss, wanting to chat over dinner. In a way, Ennis's failure to "compartmentalize" his double life reflects well on his integrity. He was certainly a terrible liar. And with all due respect to Jack and the best combine salesman, he was certainly the better liar to keep "compartmentalizing" his double life.

Finally, the role of the wives played a significant part, too. Alma was forced, confronted, with the reality of her relationship with a gay man, and her wound was rubbed raw with each meeting, each lie, of their "fishing" trip. Lureen was the lucky one, or unlucky one, who was able to hide from the truth, perhaps not wanting to face it, that their marriage was not what she thought it was, when she fell in love with Jack. Different wives, different lives.

So do I think Jack was more clever than Ennis managing his double lives? I guess it all depends on how you define clever. If the measure is based on keeping the two lives apart, continue to live the lie, meeting Ennis only a few times a year while drinking his life away, then yes, Jack was more clever. If the measure is based on living a life of integrity, embracing whatever life gave him, and patiently waiting for the time when he could live the sweet life with Jack after he paid off his child-support, after Jack proposed again to start that cow and calf operation, after the world changed enough so they won't end up like Earl and Rich, all the while staying faithful and not risking whatever down dark alleys, then I suppose Ennis was clever too.

Just not lucky, to be born a few decades too early, in the wrong place, at the wrong time.