Topic: Why did Ennis send the post card about the divorce?

[yuddy]

Sorry if this has been discussed somewhere else...If it has, please can someone tell me where I can find the discussion?

Why did Ennis feel the needs to send the post card to Jack about his divorce? Why can't he wait until their next fishing trip and tell him then in person? We know Ennis had no intention to start a sweet life with Jack after the divorce so it can't be that he wanted Jack to come right away and can't wait until their next trip. We also know Ennis was not trying to let Jack know his new mailing address (apparently he didn't even mention he'd moved in the post card). So why can't he wait?

yuddy

[jackster]

Interesting question Yuddy, I don't think it has been discussed before - This is a somewhat confused point actually. In the SS Ennis calls Jack after the divorce, this earlier call is outlined after Ennis gets the "DECEASED" postcard back and then he calls Jack's number again:

"He called Jack's number in Childress, something he had done only once before, when Alma divorced him, and Jack had misunderstood the reason for the call, had driven twelve hundred miles north for nothing."

The screenplay moves this brief scene up to immediately after the divorce when Jack makes the drive to Wyoming and is then disappointed by his reception. But your question of WHY? is good, why indeed.

I suppose it could be because Jack had asked Ennis to let him know, this seems to be plausible to me. As you indicate, Ennis is not the talkative type, especially about himself, so it does seem odd that he would make an issue of this event, especially by calling Jack. Obviously Ennis and Jack must have discussed the deteriorating situation between Ennis and Alma during the fishing trips, so Jack had some idea what was going on. In either case, either the call or the postcard, it's clear that the communication from Ennis is pretty limited and bumbled up, as Jack misinterprets the message(s) and beelines it for Ennis. Hard to imagine how, after they talked on the phone, Jack still mistakenly got the impression that Ennis wanted him to head up to Wyoming. But you're right, if Ennis didn't want him to head north why did Ennis contact Jack at all right away?

[chowhound]

Sorry if this has been discussed somewhere else...If it has, please can someone tell me where I can find the discussion?

Why did Ennis feel the needs to send the post card to Jack about his divorce? Why can't he wait until their next fishing trip and tell him then in person? We know Ennis had no intention to start a sweet life with Jack after the divorce so it can't be that he wanted Jack to come right away and can't wait until their next trip. We also know Ennis was not trying to let Jack know his new mailing address (apparently he didn't even mention he'd moved in the post card). So why can't he wait?

yuddy

It's an impossible question, Yuddy, to answer without knowing what was on the postcard. I seem to remember you can see the postcard on the dash of Jack's pickup as he's driving up to meet Ennis but, frustratingly, there's no way of reading it.

Maybe it said something simple like "Divorce came through. Free at last", or something like that. Indeed any other suggestions for what might have been on the postcard? (Sorry, no prizes for this one).

Whatever it said, it certainly speaks to Jack's impulsiveness and eagerness to be with Ennis. Indeed, some may say foolhardy eagerness as they have already arranged to meet up the following month. Most of us, I suspect, would be able to contain our eagerness until then. But not Jack!

[yuddy]

Interesting question Yuddy, I don't think it has been discussed before - This is a somewhat confused point actually. In the SS Ennis calls Jack after the divorce, this earlier call is outlined after Ennis gets the "DECEASED" postcard back and then he calls Jack's number again:

"He called Jack's number in Childress, something he had done only once before, when Alma divorced him, and Jack had misunderstood the reason for the call, had driven twelve hundred miles north for nothing."

The screenplay moves this brief scene up to immediately after the divorce when Jack makes the drive to Wyoming and is then disappointed by his reception. But your question of WHY? is good, why indeed.

I suppose it could be because Jack had asked Ennis to let him know, this seems to be plausible to me. As you indicate, Ennis is not the talkative type, especially about himself, so it does seem odd that he would make an issue of this event, especially by calling Jack. Obviously Ennis and Jack must have discussed the deteriorating situation between Ennis and Alma during the fishing trips, so Jack had some idea what was going on. In either case, either the call or the postcard, it's clear that the communication from Ennis is pretty limited and bumbled up, as Jack misinterprets the message(s) and beelines it for Ennis. Hard to imagine how, after they talked on the phone, Jack still mistakenly got the impression that Ennis wanted him to head up to Wyoming. But you're right, if Ennis didn't want him to head north why did Ennis contact Jack at all right away?

Jackster, your post gave me another idea. If Jack had asked Ennis to let him know about the divorce, getting the postcard or phone call from Ennis about it should be something expected by Jack. Therefore it is hard to explain why Jack would misread the message. However, from your SS quote (two phone calls in 20 years) and as you said it (Ennis is not the talkative type), we know this is definitely something out of character for Ennis to do.

My idea is that Ennis probably did it to please Jack.

As you said, they must have discussed the deteriorating situation between Ennis and Alma during the fishing trips. So Ennis probably sensed that Jack was anxious to know when it's final. For me, this is different from Jack asked him to do something and he simply keeps a promise. This would be Ennis doing something out of his character just to please Jack. It's like Ennis knows Jack wants a diamond ring (= sweet life) that he can't afford, but he surprises Jack with a plain silver ring (= Alma is out of Ennis' life), the best he could give. I remember when they are by the river after the reunion, Jack said "You and Alma, that's a life?" So Ennis must know Jack is feeling jealous toward Alma - she gets to spend everyday with Ennis - Therefore, maybe Ennis thinks his divorce can cheer Jack up so he wants to let Jack know right away?

Throughout the film, Ennis did several things out of his character, always for one purpose only, to make Jack happy (e.g. killing elk, quitting jobs). Could this be another example?

yuddy

[jackster]

Throughout the film, Ennis did several things out of his character, always for one purpose only, to make Jack happy (e.g. killing elk, quitting jobs). Could this be another example?

Well, could be   . . . . long ago I posted my idea of the "evolution" of Ennis DelMar and the steps involved, as shown in the film - something like: 1st ordering soup instead of beans for Jack (No more beans), 2nd shooting the elk for Jack, 3rd switching roles with Jack (you wanna switch), etc. etc. All these steps (maybe 10 or so) showing how Ennis internally evolved in his internal love for Jack. This evolution comes to a pinnacle in Jack's closet in 1983 when he discovers the shirts and Ennis has an epiphany finally realizing how much Jack loved him, but more importantly how much he truly loved Jack. At this point Ennis takes Jack's shirt and decides to publicly "out" himself to Jack's Ma and Pa by showing how much this piece of clothing means. His love overcomes his fear. Anyway, your idea that Ennis sent this card to please Jack would fit right into that evolution, as one more step that Ennis took, not because he wanted to, but because Jack wanted him to.

Found my post from long ago, still reads good to me - take a look at:
http://www.ennisjack.com/forum/index.php?topic=12265.msg623667#msg623667

I've thought a bit about CHs question below too. Don't know what the postcard might have said, but it doesn't seem like Ennis would say "free at last". In the movie anyway the picture we get of Ennis at the divorce hearing is not a happy one, where he's glad the marriage is over. Maybe he's feeling inadequate and a failure, but we see him with tears in eyes. Though next when Jack shows up at Ennis's new shack outside of Riverton, Jack is really beaming with excitement which he displays directly to Ennis, I would have thought if Jack thought Ennis was at all down about the divorce his approach here might have been more reserved. So there seem to be conflicting signals it would seem. Maybe you or CH can straighten this out for me . . .

[chowhound]

Well, could be   . . . . long ago I posted my idea of the "evolution" of Ennis DelMar and the steps involved, as shown in the film - something like: 1st ordering soup instead of beans for Jack (No more beans), 2nd shooting the elk for Jack, 3rd switching roles with Jack (you wanna switch), etc. etc. All these steps (maybe 10 or so) showing how Ennis internally evolved in his internal love for Jack. This evolution comes to a pinnacle in Jack's closet in 1983 when he discovers the shirts and Ennis has an epiphany finally realizing how much Jack loved him, but more importantly how much he truly loved Jack. At this point Ennis takes Jack's shirt and decides to publicly "out" himself to Jack's Ma and Pa by showing how much this piece of clothing means. His love overcomes his fear. Anyway, your idea that Ennis sent this card to please Jack would fit right into that evolution, as one more step that Ennis took, not because he wanted to, but because Jack wanted him to.

Found my post from long ago, still reads good to me - take a look at:
http://www.ennisjack.com/forum/index.php?topic=12265.msg623667#msg623667

I've thought a bit about CHs question below too. Don't know what the postcard might have said, but it doesn't seem like Ennis would say "free at last". In the movie anyway the picture we get of Ennis at the divorce hearing is not a happy one, where he's glad the marriage is over. Maybe he's feeling inadequate and a failure, but we see him with tears in eyes. Though next when Jack shows up at Ennis's new shack outside of Riverton, Jack is really beaming with excitement which he displays directly to Ennis, I would have thought if Jack thought Ennis was at all down about the divorce his approach here might have been more reserved. So there seem to be conflicting signals it would seem. Maybe you or CH can straighten this out for me . . .

I suppose the challenge, Jackster, if it's worth even bothering about, is to find some words that would make Jack "excited". For that is how he's described in the script:

Ennis (genuinely surprised and happy): What're you doin' here?

Jack (excited, holds up the postcard): Got your message, 'bout the divorce".

Of course, the postcard may say something as straightforward as "Divorce came through". If the divorce has been messy and if it has taken some while before becoming final then, as Yuddy has suggested, they well may have talked about it on at least one of their trips together.  Getting confirmation that the divorce was at last final may have made Jack "excited" enough to set off for  the now divorced Ennis.

That, of course, doesn't answer Yuddy'd initial question of why Ennis decided to tell Jack by postcard rather than, say, waiting until had their reunion the following
month. Yuddy's suggestion that Ennis felt Jack deserved to be told now rather than later certainly makes sense to me.

I enjoyed reading you thread about Ennis's development and the discussions with Lancecowboy and others that ensued.                                          

[jackster]

I suppose the challenge, Jackster, if it's worth even bothering about, is to find some words that would make Jack "excited".                                      

Well, goin' back to Ennis's flowery  writin' style (you bet) maybe sumthin' like:

divorce over, movin' this weekend.

I can see Jack readin' this and almost jumpin' into the pickup, thinkin' he an' Ennis will be all alone at Ennis' new digs.
Course he doesn't know where he's goin' but figures he can find out.
A few days all alone w/Ennis, in a house! with a bed! (well maybe) Whoee!
But of course in the movie it takes him a few weeks to accomplish this, as Ennis musta' had those few weeks after the divorce where he missed having the girls with him, etc. So the elapsed time here is not just a few days. Do I have have that timeline right CH?

[chowhound]

Well, goin' back to Ennis's flowery   writin' style (you bet) maybe sumthin' like:

divorce over, movin' this weekend.

I can see Jack readin' this and almost jumpin' into the pickup, thinkin' he an' Ennis will be all alone at Ennis' new digs.
Course he doesn't know where he's goin' but figures he can find out.
A few days all alone w/Ennis, in a house! with a bed! (well maybe) Whoee!
But of course in the movie it takes him a few weeks to accomplish this, as Ennis musta' had those few weeks after the divorce where he missed having the girls with him, etc. So the elapsed time here is not just a few days. Do I have have that timeline right CH?

Jackster, this is a tricky one - maybe an impossible one - in part because we have such little information about the divorce in the short story. All we get from that is that "...when Alma Jr. was nine and Francine seven she [Alma] said, what am I doin hangin around with him, divorced Ennis and married the Riverton grocer."

Ossana and McMurtry dramatize this by showing us the divorce court scene which concludes with the judge saying "...Del Mar divorce granted, this 6th day of November 1975".

In the movie this is immediately followed by Jack's drive up to see Ennis. However, there is no detailed description of this trip in the ss though we are told that Ennis phoned Jack to tell him about the divorce and that Jack "had misunderstood the call, had driven twelve hundred miles north for nothing".

We know the divorce was granted in early November but what month are we in when Jack and Ennis meet? We know that the divorce was granted in early November and that something like two months must have elapsed after that for Ennis to have missed at least his first weekend visit in his new quarters from the girls. So are we now in January? That, however, doesn't quite jibe with Jack's departing line : "I'll see you next month, then..." In February? In the mountains of Wyoming? So maybe we're in April or May? But if that is the case then a considerable amount of time has elapsed between the granting of the divorce and the postcard.

I think the best anyone can do is imagine that Ennis spent some months getting everything sorted out and the dates for the children's visits arranged before sending Jack that postcard. There is some textual support that we are now in April or May as one of the earlier scripts has Jack saying "I'll see you in the first week of June then" but obviously the reference to June got dropped by the final script.

Somebody once suggested that what we see in the movie is an "interlocutory" decree and not the final decree which came later but, in either case, time has to be allowed for at least one missed visit from the children before Ennis sends the postcard.  Unless, of course, Jack waited awhile after receiving the postcard before setting out but that doesn't really square with his "excitement".

All in all, I suspect this is one of the points in the timeline where being definitive is impossible. However, I still enjoy speculating even if it does lead to a dead end.
 

[yuddy]

Thanks Jackster, like CH, I also enjoy reading your post on Ennis' development. It is too bad that among all the interviews I read from Heath, no one ever asked him what he thinks about the transformation of Ennis throughout the story.

Sometimes I wonder what would happen if Jack shows up on a different day when the girls are not there? Ennis only got the girls once a month and sometimes he even misses it, what the odds Jack comes the day the girls are there! To be honest, I am afraid it would have been even more devastating to Jack so I don't want to speculate too much about it (Ennis, now without a good excuse, turns Jack away still...).

About the timeline that CH mentioned, don't they meet sometimes in Spring (like FC)? Of course I don't know what it means to be Spring in Wyoming...to me Spring is March-April so Jack's visit could be in Feb? That will put Ennis' sending the postcard some time in Jan. This makes sense to me. Who would tell people about their divorce during holiday seasons in Dec? Oh wait, now there is another idea - maybe Ennis sent a Christmas postcard to Jack and casually mentioned the divorce on it 

[jackster]

Sometimes I wonder what would happen if Jack showed up on a different day when the girls were not there?

Well yuddy, I guess I'd have to take Ennis at his word when he says "I'm sure as hell sorry, you know that I am". I think if the girls weren't there they'd probably be inside "jouncing a bed" in a matter of minutes. Why the heck not? For all practical purposes they're out in the middle of nowhere and certainly nobody's gonna' come knockin' on Ennis's door. So it seems like it could be a repeat of the same wonderful, stinkin' room from years earlier "The room stank of semen and smoke and sweat and whiskey, of old carpet and sour hay, saddle leather, shit and cheap soap." I think this is whut Jack was hopin' for and it's hard for me to see whut would prevent this other than the daughters or if Ennis was out on a round-up. Ennis enjoys the sex as much as Jack so would be almost as eager as Jack I think. This has always been one of the more frustating scenes to me, they both seem so utterly uncreative in trying to solve what is surely a temporary scheduling problem. There would seem to be any number of possible alternatives which would have allowed them to spend some time together here, a simple variation of whut he told Alma years earlier - "Jack and me is goin out and get a drink. Might not get back tonight, we get drinkin and talkin." could have worked again.

[chowhound]

Thanks Jackster, like CH, I also enjoy reading your post on Ennis' development. It is too bad that among all the interviews I read from Heath, no one ever asked him what he thinks about the transformation of Ennis throughout the story.

Sometimes I wonder what would happen if Jack shows up on a different day when the girls are not there? Ennis only got the girls once a month and sometimes he even misses it, what the odds Jack comes the day the girls are there! To be honest, I am afraid it would have been even more devastating to Jack so I don't want to speculate too much about it (Ennis, now without a good excuse, turns Jack away still...).

About the timeline that CH mentioned, don't they meet sometimes in Spring (like FC)? Of course I don't know what it means to be Spring in Wyoming...to me Spring is March-April so Jack's visit could be in Feb? That will put Ennis' sending the postcard some time in Jan. This makes sense to me. Who would tell people about their divorce during holiday seasons in Dec? Oh wait, now there is another idea - maybe Ennis sent a Christmas postcard to Jack and casually mentioned the divorce on it 

Yuddy, I don't know the weather in Wyoming from first hand experience - I live in Canada, in Toronto - but my impression is that Wyoming has a fairly severe winter, in the mountains especially. Remember, it snows in August when Jack and Ennis are still up on Brokeback and Jack's objection to their planned November meeting is that it will be "friggin' cold".

So I don't think they would have planned a February meeting. However, if Jack arrives at Ennis's place in early March, then "next month's" meeting could be at the end of April.

That I think would be possible. After all, they start their time together on Brokeback on May 8.

[jackster]

. . . After all, they start their time together on Brokeback on May 8.

Sorry CH, I'll need a refresher here. I remember you posted this long ago in your BBM timeline, but I don't recall how you arrived at this specific date. Where's did the 8th come from?

 

Your post:
http://www.ennisjack.com/forum/index.php?topic=1885.msg1008959#msg1008959

[chowhound]

Sorry CH, I'll need a refresher here. I remember you posted this long ago in your BBM timeline, but I don't recall how you arrived at this specific date. Where's did the 8th come from?

 

Your post:
http://www.ennisjack.com/forum/index.php?topic=1885.msg1008959#msg1008959

It's the moon, Jackster, the moon. Or, to be more precise, the full moon. If you roll the calendar back to 1963, you'll find that a full moon occurred on May 8. In the movie, when we see Jack alone  outside his pup tent on his first night on Brokeback, we see a full moon. Therefore it must be May 8. FNIT occurs the following month at the next full moon, June 7.

These dates can also be made to work for June/July but if FNIT doesn't occur until early July, that gives our boys only about five weeks before snow forces them to leave Brokeback. I like to give them more time together, so I  date the start of their Brokeback summer May 8. Also the foliage we see in the movie looks to me more like the light green of early spring rather than the darker green of early summer.

If you like detail, then having Jack spend his first night alone is one of the places where the movie diverges from the short story because in the ss. they both spend the first night together in the main camp with Jack establishing the upper camp the following day.

For me, the movie version works better with Jack alone for his first night on Brokeback. It also allows the incorporation an arresting visual detail from the ss: "Jack, in his dark camp, saw Ennis as night fire, a red spark on the huge black mass of the mountain." What about you or Yuddy - or, indeed, anyone else? Agree or disagree?

A full moon makes a third and final appearance during one of their later meetings in the mountains. Here, though, I see it as serving a "symbolic" role as serving as a link between their Brokeback past and their present and possibly as a commentary on their present as compared to their Brokeback past. As far as I can see, that final full moon cannot be used for dating purposes.

[lancecowboy]

  Yuddy! Once again the dynamic duo (Jackster and CH) managed to tease out your question and you all sure know how to pass the time out there.

Jackster, love that hypothetical postcard from Ennis. Sound just perfect. "divorce over, movin' this weekend." Don't need no more syllables. Of course, Jack read that as a cry for help with his pickup to help him move, and squeeze in a weekend with his love.

Yuddy, the expectations of the reunion you mentioned, and the expectations of the divorce here, nothing changed. The two are indeed star-crossed lovers, or at least at cross purposes. So sad, so much left unsaid.

CH, you the man with the calendar.  Sherlock has nothing on you, dude! Columbo calls you for advice on tough cases, man! You need your own mystery series, mister!

[jackster]

It's the moon, Jackster, the moon. Or, to be more precise, the full moon. If you roll the calendar back to 1963, you'll find that a full moon occurred on May 8. In the movie, when we see Jack alone  outside his pup tent on his first night on Brokeback, we see a full moon. Therefore it must be May 8. FNIT occurs the following month at the next full moon, June 7.

These dates can also be made to work for June/July but if FNIT doesn't occur until early July, that gives our boys only about five weeks before snow forces them to leave Brokeback. . . . .

Amazing calculation here CH, don't know why I didn't follow thru with you on this years ago. I think maybe it always seemed hopeless to me to try and match the SS and SP together and make them "line-up" correctly. But interesting enough now, do you think the movie and script team actually considered checking the phases of the moon when hangin' that big ol' moon up there for Jack to look at and be thinkin' of Ennis?

Wyoming weather - As one who's been in Wyoming in late May and early June (though only on two occasions) my own opin is that there's no way the boys would be up in the mountains in early May. They'd be snowshoeing their way around if they were and the sheep would be diggin' tunnels in the snow. Even driving through the mountains was pretty memorable in early June, with the snow still piled higher than the car on both sides of the road. Of course, this changes dramatically from year to year. Checking the WYO Travel Info Map today http://map.wyoroad.info/hi.html I see that all the roads are now open for the season. But I recall that last year, with its record snows, some passes in the Big Horns didn't open until the 4th of July the snow was so deep. Plus I have my own personal reasons for thinkin' June was the big meeting month, but that's another story altogether.


View of Ennis on the trip up the mountain. Lookin' at the height of the grass and flowers (if I can tear my eyes away from other, ahem, features) this looks like early June to my eyes.

I'm thinkin' what you said "only about five weeks" - yeah, not a lot of time, but they could still deepen their intimacy pretty significantly, right? Being teenagers twice a day is no problem, huh? Maybe this why Ennis gets so frustrated when Jack says "Bring 'em down". The playtime just got started and they'd wasted all those days (and nights) early on.

Thanks to LC too for your usual words of kindness. 

[lancecowboy]

"They'd be snowshoeing their way around if they were and the sheep would be diggin' tunnels in the snow."

Jack may have a problem with that, but Ennis won't mind.  You sure have a way with images painted with words, cowboy.   

[chowhound]

Amazing calculation here CH, don't know why I didn't follow thru with you on this years ago. I think maybe it always seemed hopeless to me to try and match the SS and SP together and make them "line-up" correctly. But interesting enough now, do you think the movie and script team actually considered checking the phases of the moon when hangin' that big ol' moon up there for Jack to look at and be thinkin' of Ennis?

Wyoming weather - As one who's been in Wyoming in late May and early June (though only on two occasions) my own opin is that there's no way the boys would be up in the mountains in early May. They'd be snowshoeing their way around if they were and the sheep would be diggin' tunnels in the snow. Even driving through the mountains was pretty memorable in early June, with the snow still piled higher than the car on both sides of the road. Of course, this changes dramatically from year to year. Checking the WYO Travel Info Map today http://map.wyoroad.info/hi.html I see that all the roads are now open for the season. But I recall that last year, with its record snows, some passes in the Big Horns didn't open until the 4th of July the snow was so deep. Plus I have my own personal reasons for thinkin' June was the big meeting month, but that's another story altogether.


View of Ennis on the trip up the mountain. Lookin' at the height of the grass and flowers (if I can tear my eyes away from other, ahem, features) this looks like early June to my eyes.

I'm thinkin' what you said "only about five weeks" - yeah, not a lot of time, but they could still deepen their intimacy pretty significantly, right? Being teenagers twice a day is no problem, huh? Maybe this why Ennis gets so frustrated when Jack says "Bring 'em down". The playtime just got started and they'd wasted all those days (and nights) early on.

Thanks to LC too for your usual words of kindness. 

As it's marked "personal", Jackster, I guess the rest of us won't find out what  the personal thingy was that tilted you towards June as the start of their Brokeback summer but I must confess my curiosity has been aroused.

However, even without that, I'm starting to move in your direction of a June starting date. This is for two reasons. The first is your account of what the weather well might have been like in the mountains of Wyoming in early May.  The second is a detail from the ss. In a description of one Ennis and Jack's very enjoyable evenings around the camp fire prior to FNIT we learn that one of the things they talked about was "...the submarine Thresher lost two months earlier with all hands". The Thresher sank on April 10  though news didn't get out for a few days, so this could point to mid to late June when this conversation takes place. Now I know, as do you, that's impossible to get the ss. and movie to satisfactorily align over dates but as this date doesn't contradict anything we see in the movie, then I think it can be used to support a June date for the start of their Brokeback summer. On the other hand, the sinking of the Thesher isn't mentioned in the movie, so those who prefer the longer time frame can certainly hold onto that and assume that a milder winter allowed them to start the season in early May.

Of course, dating by vegetation is dodgy because, although the movie was shot during the summer, it wasn't, as we all know, shot in Wyoming but in Alberta. So the shot you have of Ennis sitting in a mountain pasture is of an Albertan pasture not a Wyoming one. (How can you transfer a shot like that form the movie and embed it in one of your posts? I think you must have magical powers. In any case, it's gorgeous). I've just checked the call sheets and that scene was shot on June 17 so it's Albertan vegetation in mid June that we are seeing.

As far as the full moon is concerned, I wouldn't be in the least surprised if that was Ang Lee's contribution, as the two full moons are not mentioned in either the ss. or the script. He's known as a stickler for details so could have consulted a 1963 calendar - easy enough to do these days with the internet - to check on the dates of the full moon the summer of 1963. Even if he didn't do that, it's a neat and unobtrusive way of marking the amount of time that elapses between their first meeting and FNIT. 

And thanks, LC, for your playful salutations. I enjoyed them and am prepared to take a small, humble little bow.

[jackster]

Golly CH:

Forgot all about that submarine Thresher line in the SS. 

I'd say that pretty well seals it, huh?
Interestingly, the motto of the Thresher: "Vis Tacita" - Silent Strength.
Remind you of anybody?

[lancecowboy]

  Jackster, CH you two are the best. Vis Tacita...

[yuddy]

The second is a detail from the ss. In a description of one Ennis and Jack's very enjoyable evenings around the camp fire prior to FNIT we learn that one of the things they talked about was "...the submarine Thresher lost two months earlier with all hands". The Thresher sank on April 10  though news didn't get out for a few days, so this could point to mid to late June when this conversation takes place.

One more vote for a June start. I remember in the ss, when Ennis got the post card from Jack in June 1967, it says "The fourth summer since Brokeback Mountain came on and in June Ennis had a general delivery letter from Jack Twist, the first sign of life in all that time"? Annie did specifically said it was June that Ennis received the post card, right? It seems to me, to Annie, who lived in Wyoming at the time, June is the beginning of summer.

As far as the full moon is concerned, I wouldn't be in the least surprised if that was Ang Lee's contribution, as the two full moons are not mentioned in either the ss. or the script. He's known as a stickler for details so could have consulted a 1963 calendar - easy enough to do these days with the internet - to check on the dates of the full moon the summer of 1963. Even if he didn't do that, it's a neat and unobtrusive way of marking the amount of time that elapses between their first meeting and FNIT. 

Coming from the same cultural background (I grew up in Taiwan as well) and having read many of Ang's Chinese interviews, I am convinced the full moon is not a convenience or coincident. I am pretty sure Ang did that on purpose. If not for dating purpose, like you all deciphered, it might have something to do with Chinese tradition (full moon is a symbol of "coming together", "lovers' reunion", etc). In fact, Chinese Valentine's day is set to be the day of full moon in August according to western calendar...and there is a tragic love story between a cowherd and a princess behind this traditional holiday that share many similarities with E&J's story (http://www.chinesefortunecalendar.com/77a.htm)...

By the way, you guys are all genius! Some of the discussions on this forum should get put into a Brokeback study book, and get published!

yuddy

[lancecowboy]

...
By the way, you guys are all genius! Some of the discussions on this forum should get put into a Brokeback study book, and get published!

yuddy

I second that motion.

Nice touch about the full moon's meaning for lovers, Yuddy.  You ain't too bad yourself. 

[tizi17]

wonderful thoughts and details   
our brokies never cease to amaze me... 

[jackster]

Gee, you all are just way too kind . . .

But ya' know yuddy . . . . there's just a hairline difference between genius   and insanity ..

I can't speak for CH, but I vote for the latter, the evidence is too convincing.
how do I get this thing outta' reverse?

[BBMsheep]

wonderful thoughts and details   
our brokies never cease to amaze me... 

I totally agree with that!! Amazing

But I don't get the Vis Tacita thing...

[lancecowboy]

  Jackster

BBMSheep SS is the original Annie Proulx short story, which, as CH reminded us and I totally drew a blank, contained a reference to the submarine USS Thresher, and as Jackster pointed out below, the motto is apt for our Ennis, hiding not just behind a wall, but beneath a deep blue sea, with all the emotions unleashed by Jack that summer on Brokeback. FNIT was Jack deepchargin Ennis. SNIT was Ennis surfacing in full force.

The more I think about Vis Tacita, the more I love it. 

Golly CH:

Forgot all about that submarine Thresher line in the SS. 

I'd say that pretty well seals it, huh?
Interestingly, the motto of the Thresher: "Vis Tacita" - Silent Strength.
Remind you of anybody?

[chowhound]

One more vote for a June start. I remember in the ss, when Ennis got the post card from Jack in June 1967, it says "The fourth summer since Brokeback Mountain came on and in June Ennis had a general delivery letter from Jack Twist, the first sign of life in all that time"? Annie did specifically said it was June that Ennis received the post card, right? It seems to me, to Annie, who lived in Wyoming at the time, June is the beginning of summer.

Coming from the same cultural background (I grew up in Taiwan as well) and having read many of Ang's Chinese interviews, I am convinced the full moon is not a convenience or coincident. I am pretty sure Ang did that on purpose. If not for dating purpose, like you all deciphered, it might have something to do with Chinese tradition (full moon is a symbol of "coming together", "lovers' reunion", etc). In fact, Chinese Valentine's day is set to be the day of full moon in August according to western calendar...and there is a tragic love story between a cowherd and a princess behind this traditional holiday that share many similarities with E&J's story (http://www.chinesefortunecalendar.com/77a.htm)...

By the way, you guys are all genius! Some of the discussions on this forum should get put into a Brokeback study book, and get published!

yuddy

Many thanks, Yuddy, for letting us know what associations the full moon might have to somebody, like Ang, who has a Chinese background. Having read what you have to say, as well as that charming and touching story you provided, I'm pretty sure that for Ang the portrayal of the full moon at those two points in the story indicates more than just the passage of time. It is, in the very best sense, a romantic story that he is telling and so the romantic association of the moon in Chinese legend fit in very well here.

As you no doubt know, the associations of the full moon in the West - in the Anglo world at least - are far more sinister. The word "lunatic" is derived from the Latin word  for the moon, "luna", and Hollywood has utilized more than once the legend of the werewolf which is also linked to the full moon. Maybe others here can come up with more ways in which the full moon has been portrayed in either story or film.

The full moon makes one final appearance in the movie:

http://www.stripedwall.com/gallery.php?image=/movies/Brokeback/brokebackmtn_2262.jpg&mode=fullsize

This occurs as a transition shot between the day time when the two of them strip off and jump into the river or lake and the night time scene when they are around a camp fire, just as they were on Brokeback. Here, it's not needed as a time marker as the time and the year have already been established.

Therefore, beyond its obvious role as letting us know that day has now turned into night, I think it has symbolic values. I look at those clouds creeping around the moon's edge and this makes me think of all the problems and difficulties which now lie ahead for Ennis and Jack. This is the scene where Jack brings up the possibility of a "sweet life" for the two of them but we all know how impossible it proved to be to bring that moon dream into the full light of day,

[BBMsheep]

Jackster

BBMSheep SS is the original Annie Proulx short story, which, as CH reminded us and I totally drew a blank, contained a reference to the submarine USS Thresher, and as Jackster pointed out below, the motto is apt for our Ennis, hiding not just behind a wall, but beneath a deep blue sea, with all the emotions unleashed by Jack that summer on Brokeback. FNIT was Jack deepchargin Ennis. SNIT was Ennis surfacing in full force.

The more I think about Vis Tacita, the more I love it. 

Thanks Lance!
I don't remember this reference in the SS!
Beautiful metaphor, so true. Silent strength...

[jackster]

Many thanks, Yuddy, for letting us know what associations the full moon might have to somebody,
like Ang, . . .
The full moon makes one final appearance in the movie: . . . .
. . . I think it has symbolic values. . . .

Have to applaud and agree with all of CH points and observations here, and yuddy, thanks for the important eastern insight.
It also occurs to me that of course AP did bring the moon into the SS, just twice I think - first when Ennis is feeling so giddy after an evening with Jack (maybe their first real "date"?), he can "paw the white out of the moon".

Then, just two paragraphs later, before the FNIT Ennis was "dizzy drunk . . . when the moon had notched past two".

Neither of these refers directly to a FULL moon, but it seems the imagery is certainly there.

RE: Vis Tacita. My thoughts on discovering this were that in many ways (not all, but many) this was the image of Ennis we get, not talkative or verbal, but strong and steadfast. He had his weaknesses for sure, but he also was "made for fighting". One my own hypotheses has been that if Ennis could have overcome his own homophobia of himself (which I feel he was in process of) and once he determined that he and Jack could have a sweet life (had Jack lived) there was probably little that could have stopped him from doing that. I see this as another aspect of the tragedy, it seems we're shown the potential this relationship held within. Tragically, never to be realized.

[yuddy]

RE: Vis Tacita. My thoughts on discovering this were that in many ways (not all, but many) this was the image of Ennis we get, not talkative or verbal, but strong and steadfast. He had his weaknesses for sure, but he also was "made for fighting". One my own hypotheses has been that if Ennis could have overcome his own homophobia of himself (which I feel he was in process of) and once he determined that he and Jack could have a sweet life (had Jack lived) there was probably little that could have stopped him from doing that. I see this as another aspect of the tragedy, it seems we're shown the potential this relationship held within. Tragically, never to be realized.

So true. I remember in Charlie Rose's interview, Heath said, "Ennis is someone with potential. The problem is what he does not allow himself to do." It's amazing how deep Heath got into Ennis psyche and knew exactly the root of the Brokeback tragedy. Come to think of it, Ennis' steadfast personality is really the deal maker or deal breaker here. Like Jake and many viewers suspect that even though Jack is the one who keeps trying to make it work, Jack probably will not be a strong keeper of the sweet life once he gets what he wants. However, if Ennis could have overcome his own homophobia and determined to have a sweet life with Jack, I am sure he will be the one that keeps it going until the end of the world.

I love the Vis Tacita meaning behind their casual conversation over the submarine Tresher. I wonder though, in the ss, it says that the two of them talked about how "it must have been in the last doomed minutes" -- was this to hint us the doomed minutes are ahead of Ennis and Jack? The entire paragraph about their conversation is filled with the little things, horses and rodeos, dogs, family etc. Right in the middle, there is this one topic that is abstract, hypothetical, and out of their personal experiences. Was Annie trying to sneaking in a prophecy?

[yuddy]

As you no doubt know, the associations of the full moon in the West - in the Anglo world at least - are far more sinister. The word "lunatic" is derived from the Latin word  for the moon, "luna", and Hollywood has utilized more than once the legend of the werewolf which is also linked to the full moon. Maybe others here can come up with more ways in which the full moon has been portrayed in either story or film.

The full moon makes one final appearance in the movie:

http://www.stripedwall.com/gallery.php?image=/movies/Brokeback/brokebackmtn_2262.jpg&mode=fullsize

This occurs as a transition shot between the day time when the two of them strip off and jump into the river or lake and the night time scene when they are around a camp fire, just as they were on Brokeback. Here, it's not needed as a time marker as the time and the year have already been established.

Therefore, beyond its obvious role as letting us know that day has now turned into night, I think it has symbolic values. I look at those clouds creeping around the moon's edge and this makes me think of all the problems and difficulties which now lie ahead for Ennis and Jack. This is the scene where Jack brings up the possibility of a "sweet life" for the two of them but we all know how impossible it proved to be to bring that moon dream into the full light of day,

Love it! I didn't think of it that way! CH, you've got such an eye for details.
I don't like horror movies but from what I remember, is it frequently done in movies like wolf man that they show the full moon with clouds creeping around before the evils begin?
This whole full moon with clouds thing also reminds me of this in the ss: "the brilliant charge of their infrequent couplings (bright full moon) was darkened by the sense of time flying (clouds creeping in), never enough time, never enough"