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Author Topic: Betrayal and Renewal  (Read 25953 times)

Offline Tom

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Re: Betrayal and Renewal
« Reply #30 on: Mar 03, 2006, 07:39 PM »
Quote from: jerasjr on Mar 03, 2006, 07:07 PM
  Can only say that it has brought me to where I am, and I like myself.  

I am beginning to think that this is the key to most things. I have spent a great deal of my life not particularly liking myself and an awful lot of it hating myself. It is only in the last while that I have started to at least respect myself. Since coming here in January my whole outlook has altered. I look around and find people who love me, many who like me so I can't be all bad.

In time maybe I will find my Jack as well....until then jerasjt we will have a fine life. thank you for sharing part of your life here. This site is so wonderful.

Tom
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Offline BBBOY

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Re: Betrayal and Renewal
« Reply #31 on: Mar 03, 2006, 09:58 PM »
Quote from: jerasjr on Mar 03, 2006, 07:07 PM
been far apart from each other since.  My son and I are not exceptionally close, but that is due to some other things, other than me being gay.  Can only say that it has brought me to where I am, and I like myself.  Now if life sees to bring me someone, the Jack of my heart, it would all be wonderful.

As always, your post awes me. Jack is there. You will find him I am sure.
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There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken darken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.

Offline n061857

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Re: Betrayal and Renewal
« Reply #32 on: Mar 25, 2006, 02:29 PM »
Ennis has a tear in his eye in the courthouse when he gets divorced.  I assume that is because he will no longer live with his girls and his charade of heterosexuality is over.  Any other ideas?
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Offline tpe

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Re: Betrayal and Renewal
« Reply #33 on: Mar 25, 2006, 05:11 PM »
Quote from: n061857 on Mar 25, 2006, 02:29 PM
Ennis has a tear in his eye in the courthouse when he gets divorced.  I assume that is because he will no longer live with his girls and his charade of heterosexuality is over.  Any other ideas?

In some sense, I think he did love Alma, or at least what she stood for: a family that he was a part of.  Even though he 'betrayed' her, he probably loved her even as the marriage deteriorated.  My opinion...
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Offline n061857

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Re: Betrayal and Renewal
« Reply #34 on: Mar 25, 2006, 05:51 PM »
I think he did love Alma, but no longer in a physical sense.  Therefore, I would think he would be relieved that he doesn't have to pretend to love her sexually anymore.
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Offline tpe

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Re: Betrayal and Renewal
« Reply #35 on: Mar 26, 2006, 03:24 PM »
Quote from: n061857 on Mar 25, 2006, 05:51 PM
I think he did love Alma, but no longer in a physical sense.  Therefore, I would think he would be relieved that he doesn't have to pretend to love her sexually anymore.

Yes, I agree with this.  It was probably not primarily sexual in the end.  I would assume that the marriage lasted a bit more after they stopped having sex. Perhaps the childern as a common bond had more to do with it then.

Of course, when Alma went of with Monroe, I suppose the bond with the Children was stronger with Ennis than with Alma -- they were the only ones Ennis had left after Jack died...  And even that was not a bond strengthened by proximity, as Ennis seemed isolated in the later years.
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Offline coguaro

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Re: Betrayal and Renewal
« Reply #36 on: Mar 29, 2006, 02:41 PM »
in the final Ennis-Alma Jr scene Ennis ask to his daughter if her future husband marry her because of love, if he really love her.... and he is SO serious telling that! I think that in this words he had in mind his previous relation with Alma... Ennis didn't marry because of love but because he had to do...now he got the lesson and he want to learns that to his loved daughter....
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Offline tpe

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Re: Betrayal and Renewal
« Reply #37 on: Mar 29, 2006, 03:31 PM »
Quote from: coguaro on Mar 29, 2006, 02:41 PM
in the final Ennis-Alma Jr scene Ennis ask to his daughter if her future husband marry her because of love, if he really love her.... and he is SO serious telling that! I think that in this words he had in mind his previous relation with Alma... Ennis didn't marry because of love but because he had to do...now he got the lesson and he want to learns that to his loved daughter....

coguaro, this is an interesting way of looking at it.  Thanks.  Although I had thought about this more as pertaining to Ennis's love for Jack, you certainly have a point by citing this as a reflection by Ennis on his marriage with Alma.

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Offline Stephen

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Re: Betrayal and Renewal
« Reply #38 on: Apr 07, 2006, 08:25 AM »
An interesting take on the last scene....When Ennis asked Alma Jr. if her fiancee loves her, I didn't quite know what to make of this question, seemingly out of the blue. At first I thought Ennis must be reflecting on Jack's love for him, or his for Jack; and then I thought Ennis was thinking of his marriage to Alma. Or maybe he was just working at being more personal with his daughter and wanting to hear her confirm that she felt loved by her husband-to-be because Ennis was finally, if too late, aware of the power of Jack's love for him, and of his own too carefully guarded love for Jack.
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Offline tpe

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Re: Betrayal and Renewal
« Reply #39 on: Apr 07, 2006, 08:57 AM »
Quote from: Stephen on Apr 07, 2006, 08:25 AM
An interesting take on the last scene....When Ennis asked Alma Jr. if her fiancee loves her, I didn't quite know what to make of this question, seemingly out of the blue. At first I thought Ennis must be reflecting on Jack's love for him, or his for Jack; and then I thought Ennis was thinking of his marriage to Alma. Or maybe he was just working at being more personal with his daughter and wanting to hear her confirm that she felt loved by her husband-to-be because Ennis was finally, if too late, aware of the power of Jack's love for him, and of his own too carefully guarded love for Jack.

Hello Stephen.  Yes, I do think it is a mix of all of these.  The screenplay seems to suggest, though, that his love of Jack was uppermost in his mind.  Because it says that after Alma Jr. affirms her love for Kurt, the screenplay says that Ennis then cannot hide the sadness in his face for what he cannot have, what he will never have.  I assume this is a shared life of love with Jack.

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Offline Stephen

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Re: Betrayal and Renewal
« Reply #40 on: Apr 07, 2006, 09:34 AM »
Yes, tpe, I agree. The forsaken love will always be foremost on Ennis' mind. But I think the screen play says more than what Ennis shows on the screen; in fact, he looks reflective, but certainly he doesn't have time to look too sad while his daughter is there in front of him: I think in the film he saves this brooding melancholy for the "I swear..." scene. I'll have to check this out again for my nest viewing.
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Offline tpe

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Re: Betrayal and Renewal
« Reply #41 on: Apr 07, 2006, 09:46 AM »
Stephen, you know, that scene when Ennis looks so lost after his daughter's affirmation -- this always crushes me.  There is always a lump in my throat when he looks out into some unknown distance.   It is so terribly sad. 

A bit OOT, I know.  But I can't help it...

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Offline Stephen

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Re: Betrayal and Renewal
« Reply #42 on: Apr 08, 2006, 09:51 AM »
And it affects me the same: I watched the scene again last night and that far-away look was as if Ennis was back at Brokeback Mountain for an instant! So heart breaking. And then the ritual folding of Alma Jr.'s sweater and placing it on the closet shelf....and then to his own shirt covering and protecting Jack's for eternity......
« Last Edit: Apr 08, 2006, 10:11 AM by Stephen »
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Offline BBBOY

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Re: Betrayal and Renewal
« Reply #43 on: Apr 08, 2006, 05:01 PM »
Quote from: tpe on Apr 07, 2006, 09:46 AM
Stephen, you know, that scene when Ennis looks so lost after his daughter's affirmation -- this always crushes me.  There is always a lump in my throat when he looks out into some unknown distance.   It is so terribly sad. 

A bit OOT, I know.  But I can't help it...



If you look closely, you might see him talking to Jack and then saying yes to something the spirit of Jack has said to him. His whole being changes at that moment and he reaches out to his daughter. Just one more scene to rip your heart out.
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There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken darken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.

Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: Betrayal and Renewal
« Reply #44 on: Apr 09, 2006, 03:23 PM »
I like that interpretation BBBOY. Ennis is living with regret and can't stand it, so he's trying to fix it.
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“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one ~ Imagine- J. Lennon

Offline tpe

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Re: Betrayal and Renewal
« Reply #45 on: Apr 09, 2006, 03:25 PM »
He is certainly trying to do right with Alma Jr.  And it is wonderful to see Alma Jr. love her father back with all the intensity that you can only see in Jack's love for Ennis.

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