Topic: What if... ?!

[aintfoolin]

OMI GOD!  I'd pay good money to hear THAT conversation, But then again not even Paul Harvey could get the rest of that story.LMAO.

[XoGreenEyed005Xo]

what if this possible scenario had happened? Jack chose to live with Randall in LF and completely gave up on Ennis and ever living a full life with him, but he still loved Ennis somewhat stronger then he loved Randall(even though he enjoyed being with Randall because Randall gave him his dream. Then, about a year or two after Jack broke things off with Ennis, Ennis showed up at LF telling Jack that he loved him and couldn't go on with out him. Then going on to ask him to just leave Randall and live a full life with him with out caring what society viewed as the right thing to do.

That would give Jack a big decision to make. He could go to live with Ennis who he never truly stopped loving, or he could stay with Randall and this life that he had established and was getting used too because it was his dream. I sure Jack had to also think about what leaving Randall would do to him, and then how did he know if he could trust Ennis to stay strong with this plan because he always showed doubtfulness when they were together for those 20 years.

In the end i believe that Jack would go to Ennis even though he had doubts about it and what it would do to the other man he loved almost as deeply as he loved Ennis. I think that he would have done this because even though he had that full life with Randall it probably wasn't as good as he had always hoped for it to be, because when the picture of a perfect life first came into his mind he was leading it with Ennis. So, even though he would have had his full life he would have always had a desire or a wish for something more, that something more being Ennis.



PS: this is my first post ever. and i was just wondering how i did.   (you don't have to answer if you don't want to I can see how it is kind of off the subject.)

[manhattangirl]

Great question.   I wonder about this myself.   "Be careful of what you wish for", if Jack went to Ennis, at his urging,  would Randall be willing to let Jack go?   Or would Jack after establishing a life with Randall would be so willing as to leave Randall, for what?   Ennis all of sudden had a change of heart?   Jack went through almost twenty years waiting for Ennis's "change of heart". 

Now older, I don't know if he wanted to go through it again.  Waking up each morning with Ennis wondering is this the day he lets his fears get to him? and Jack has to go through the final confrontation scene again.   With Randall he knew he was wanted.   Even though he'd still loves Ennis,  Ennis's "low startle point"  would always be lingering in his back of of mind.

Great subject, looking forward to more from you.   

[aintfoolin]

This is a hard one. First of all, I'm sure that Randalll would try to remind Jack of the reason he's with him and not Ennis in the first place. I think Jack would have to have to have alot of assuance that Ennis was'nt gonna bolt again before he gave up an established sweet life with Randall. I would love to say that Jack would drop everything and go with Ennis, but Jack would have to think on this one long and hard. It would depend on how bad Ennis wants this. He'd have to prove his sincerity to Jack with more than just words, but the very fact that Ennis shows up in LF to plead his case is a big step for him. This scenario has all the implications of getting very ugly between Ennis and Randall though in the end it's Jack's hard choice alone.Somebody would loose out big time as Jack is a treasure to have around for either of these fellas. Very  hard choice. Great juicy thread!

[welshwitch]

The romantic response is to say that Jack would fly into Ennis's arms, as he did in the reunion, and they'd live happily ever after, leaving Randall to find another place for himself. In reality I don't think that would happen; sometimes there comes a time when something is over and as Rhett says to Scarlett, sometimes even the most deathless love can wear out against the intransigence of another. There's also the fact that Jack is 39 when he and Ennis play out that final confronntation, so by the time he's been divorced from Lureen, Randall has detached himself from La Shawn and they've settled in Lightning flat Jack will be in his forties, a time when one may be less inclined to believe in " all for love and the world well lost". 

All this, of course, presupposes that Jack got the postcard about the November meeting but ignored it. In which case he had decided that he could neither fix it nor stand it with Ennis, and would settle for something less, but for someone he could rely on.

That said, we seem to build a lot on Randall's character and ability to maintain a lasting affection for Jack on a couple of very short scenes in the movie!

[aintfoolin]

Jack's father knew of Randall , giving insight into how Jack felt about Randall at some point. For Jack to  talk of bringing Randall  home to LF with him  to his parentis is  important and telling. But I agree that Jack was'nt a spring chicken anymore. He'd be settled into the life he wanted for a long time. Probably see Ennis as "a day late and a dollar short" but love does strange things to the human heart. I would'nt discount Jack taking Ennis back completely as in this scenario, Jack's still loves Ennis deeply. Always will.I think it would depend mostly on how emotionally invested Jack is  in Randall. Would this be fair to Randall? No, but again right or wrong it's up to Jack.  It's only his happiness that counts.  Ennis had his chance and blew it once but could Jack really stand to see Ennis in  this much pain.? Ennis is Jack's heart ...truly Forgetaboutit. . Jack would probably punch Ennis, then hug him. Needless to say, I don't know . It's a tough one.

[JT]

This is a tough one.  Something for all of us to think about.  To me, it all depends on what kind of relationship Jack and Randall have.  If they have a relationship that neither is satisfied and condiser each other as just a partner.  Then there's always a chance that Jack will go back to Ennis.  I don't think Jack will love anyone else as much as Ennis.  But if Jack and Randall can make each other happy, and be each other's other half, then Jack can go on without Ennis.  Ennis will just be a memory of a happy moment.   

[XoGreenEyed005Xo]

Great question.   I wonder about this myself.   "Be careful of what you wish for", if Jack went to Ennis, at his urging,  would Randall be willing to let Jack go?   Or would Jack after establishing a life with Randall would be so willing as to leave Randall, for what?   Ennis all of sudden had a change of heart?   Jack went through almost twenty years waiting for Ennis's "change of heart". 

Now older, I don't know if he wanted to go through it again.  Waking up each morning with Ennis wondering is this the day he lets his fears get to him? and Jack has to go through the final confrontation scene again.   With Randall he knew he was wanted.   Even though he'd still loves Ennis,  Ennis's "low startle point"  would always be lingering in his back of of mind.

Great subject, looking forward to more from you.   

That is a good point would Jack have chosen to go to Ennis the one he loved more but live in fear, or stay where he was safe, sucure, and wanted but living without his true love and wondering what if he and Ennis could've had a better life then the one he had settled for after he finally elized things with Ennis weren't ging where he wanted them to.
I guess this might be one of those unanswerable questions where the best we could do is guess at what could have happened if Jack had stayed alive.

thanks for the positive feedback. I am looking forward to posting more.

[tpe]

Welcome, XoGreenEyed005Xo.  And thank you for starting this topic.

Do you believe that some people are fated to love each other, whereas others learn to love one another?

Personally, I put Ennis and Jack in the first category, and Jack and Randall in the second.

Somehow I feel that although Jack would never stop loving Ennis, he would perhaps resign himself to a lesser love.  After all, love and happiness are not always congruent. 

Some societies have recognized the fact in the form of arranged unions -- it was a common practice to assume that love can be developed over time and that the initial absence of love does not mean that happiness and contentment cannot be achieved. 

Likewise, it has been recognized that romantic/ passionate love does not always lead to happiness -- it can be destructive by reason of not being rational or temperate.  At the core of this is the belief that intemperate love for anything destroys us.

Hence, I consider the possibility that Jack was resigned to lose Ennis, even though he would never stop loving him.   And perhaps he would learn to love Randall and that he would find happiness.  These two are not contradictory as they seem to be. 

We are all capable of many loves.  There are the great passions that only bring us sorrow, but we never stop loving because of it.   And then there are loves that only seek contentment, if only to realize a dream.

[hpv]

   XoGreenEyed005Xo. what a long name you choose...
That's a tough question, as many said before. It all depends for how long they've been living together allready, and  the routine of real life is not like that great then life, love story Ennis and Jack had.Saying that, I think that Jack would probably not leave Randall,as he was in the sweet life he dreamed for so long, but might try to do what he did when he was married to Laureen, sneak out to quick high altitude...etc.
On the second thought, remembering the shirts, Jack would have prefer Ennis , being  great love of his life, and as I was thinking, he is a spontaneous guy, look at the 14 hours driving to Riverton,after Ennis's divorce... well, all is possible   
I sure would like to see them together of course!
Anyway, it all could be a begginning of a new FAN-FIC story...

[tpe]

I would like to think that Jack would leave Randall anytime, if only Ennis relented and agreed to a life together.  My feeling is that Ennis would perhaps never have relented -- it took Jack's death to make him realize what he missed out after all those years.

[yncroger]

One would hope that Jack and Ennis would get back together, but if Jack has been really happy in his new relationship, I don't believe that Jack would go back to Ennis.  Although for Ennis to come to LF could be an indication that he has finally realized that he really does love Jack and wants to be with him always.  I have to believe that Ennis would always have reservations about two men living together, but I believe he would tried to make it work.  But Ennis has a lot of baggage that he carries around, and it would be a rough time for a while, and yes his fears could keep the relationship from ever being a truly happy  one.  Even though Jack loved Ennis very deeply, could Jack believe that he an Ennis could ever really be happy together. Happiness is fleeting, and if he and Randall are truly happy, then Jack really has a big decision to make.  Love or happiness? 

[lamusica]

Yncroger,  You make a great point here.  Love and happiness are not synonymous, although we are led to believe that by romance novels and movies geared towards naive folks.  Would Jack opt for happiness instead of for love?  I'm not too sure about that, but there's always that possibility.  Ennis, on the other hand, wouldn't know happiness if it bit him in the hindquarters.  I'm not sure he would ever put the word "love" to what it was he felt for Jack, either.  And I think that is the reason he won't just move to LF with Jack early on in the game.  He doesn't see the possibilities in instigating a change. It's hard to run towards something when you don't recognize what it is that's beckoning you. (I hope this makes sense to someone other than just to myself!LOL)

[yncroger]

Just a further note about happiness.  I think that in the movie Jack was looking for happines.  Wanting to live with Ennis at LF would of been a sort of happiness for Jack.  So I can see Jack considering happiness over love.

[aintfoolin]

Yncroger,  You make a great point here.  Love and happiness are not synonymous, although we are led to believe that by romance novels and movies geared towards naive folks.  Would Jack opt for happiness instead of for love?  I'm not too sure about that, but there's always that possibility.  Ennis, on the other hand, wouldn't know happiness if it bit him in the hindquarters.  I'm not sure he would ever put the word "love" to what it was he felt for Jack, either.  And I think that is the reason he won't just move to LF with Jack early on in the game.  He doesn't see the possibilities in instigating a change. It's hard to run towards something when you don't recognize what it is that's beckoning you. (I hope this makes sense to someone other than just to myself!LOL)

Well, I don't think Ennis was this naive.  On BBM we saw Ennis show love, not necessarily with words, but with deeds of kindness and thoughtfulness too. At times , these acts caught Jack and the viewer off guard. To Jack they were intimate expressions of a growing awareness of what Ennis was feeling for him.  Ennis was never going to shout it from the rooftops that he loved Jack , but deep inside he had to finally admit it to himself.

I feel Ennis knew exactly what was beckoning him. Problem was, he just could not make the huge adjustment that this "thing" required him to do. He just was'nt ready  mentally to deal with it I guess, but I think he recognized what he was feeling for Jack after a period of time past. The reunion scene was evidence of this.

Now after being married to Alma, he had something to compare it to. Clearly, Jack was the one her perferred.  He was'nt emotionless completely. He just had a quiet storm going on within himself as far as his feelings went for Jack.  You can see as Ennis sat anxiously by the window waiting for Jack to arrive. Nothing else mattered to Ennis at that point except holding Jack in his arms again. A chance to correct a mistake of showing Jack that their time spent on BB affected him more than words could say. Jack understood this.

[tpe]

One would hope that Jack and Ennis would get back together, but if Jack has been really happy in his new relationship, I don't believe that Jack would go back to Ennis.  Although for Ennis to come to LF could be an indication that he has finally realized that he really does love Jack and wants to be with him always.  I have to believe that Ennis would always have reservations about two men living together, but I believe he would tried to make it work.  But Ennis has a lot of baggage that he carries around, and it would be a rough time for a while, and yes his fears could keep the relationship from ever being a truly happy  one.  Even though Jack loved Ennis very deeply, could Jack believe that he an Ennis could ever really be happy together. Happiness is fleeting, and if he and Randall are truly happy, then Jack really has a big decision to make.  Love or happiness? 

Sometimes, we do prefer to never go back, if only to hold fast to memories we cherish, and emotions that we treasure deep in our hearts.

So this is why I can see if Jack would never go back to see Ennis.  Perhaps he wanted to keep a memory of him intact.  Especially in love. 

For myself, I know that I have loved and never looked back.

 

[Iria]

Hi sweethearts! 

What if... Jack Twist, our beloved and adored dark-haired, tender blue-eyed, handsome cowboy...was still alive??? 

Has any of you seen this video-treasure in youtube?



I know this is not fair to the actual story but, it's done sooo good to my aching heart... 


Iria "Del Mar".

[tpe]

Hi sweethearts! 

What if... Jack Twist, our beloved and adored dark-haired, tender blue-eyed, handsome cowboy...was still alive??? 

Has any of you seen this video-treasure in youtube?



I know this is not fair to the actual story but, it's done sooo good to my aching heart... 


Iria "Del Mar".

Welcome Iria! 

I would want to check out this youtube clip right now, but I an't access youtube from work, so I will have to wait until I get out in the evening.

But I encourage other memebers who can view it right now to comment on it -- it will give me an idea right now of what is in the clip. 

[myprivatejack]

Oh,my¡ this is the happy ending all the Brokies would have liked;everything would be a Jack's fake to run away from everything what was his life until that moment.And,of course,begin a new one close to his loved Ennis,very far away from what had been their environment...Ah,very nice,indeed¡ Even I wrote a slight outline of an story just like this,where Old Newsome had paid Jack to quit his wife and child because he knew his secret...
But,we must admit something we've talked about several times;with a conventional happy ending,wouldn't the story lose its dramatic strenght and became an ordinary love story similar to Sissi saga or stuff?And also its plea against intolerance and narrow-mindness would lose efectivity?.I think so,maybe because human beings always learn from negative events,never from good ones;look at Ennis case,for example... But I confess I'd like very,very much to watch a silly and shabby happy ending-even with Jack and Ennis singing,now that an opera is going to be made¡ -.

[Matt Nasty]

i commented on this video a few days ago... if only things had really turned out like that...

[LuvJackNasty]

I hadn't seen this video before but it left me smiling. Of course I'd never change the OS but I do like being able to see/read alternatives as an "escape" sometimes. And it was really nicely done- just seeing them having that sweet life.

[desperatehousewife]

Hi sweethearts! 

What if... Jack Twist, our beloved and adored dark-haired, tender blue-eyed, handsome cowboy...was still alive??? 

Has any of you seen this video-treasure in youtube?



I know this is not fair to the actual story but, it's done sooo good to my aching heart... 


Iria "Del Mar".

I can understand where you are all coming from, but this just doesn't do it for me.  Although I did find myself thinking that if they had just managed another 10 years maybe it would have been ok for them to at last be together.  But as most of you have said, then the whole story just becomes very mundane and rather pointless.  It is the way that they conducted their relationship that made it so special, frustrating for Jack, yes, but had they been "like this always", then they'd just be like any other boring old couple.  The fact that they saw each other so little meant that every minute together was intense and treasured, and they had no time to take each other for granted.  Although I hate to say it, there really can be no other ending, it has to be tragic to make it all so beautiful, and this was perhaps the only way Ennis was ever going to be jolted into realizing his true feelings.

[atalley]

I agree Desperate...I don't think BBM would have had the same effect if the ending was happy.  I doubt if we would still be discussing it and having PBS 2 1/2 yrs. later.  Also, the death of Heath magnifies the sadness. :\'(

[Tony]

    Just saw the video, and I think it worked.  We know it's not what happened, but there was some emotional release in seeing a different ending.
And the sound track worked just as well for an escape as for a tragedy.  The music is kind of strange that way - did anybody else notice it is both sad AND triumphant?  As if, in the film, they lost, but love won?

[tpe]

I can understand where you are all coming from, but this just doesn't do it for me.  Although I did find myself thinking that if they had just managed another 10 years maybe it would have been ok for them to at last be together.  But as most of you have said, then the whole story just becomes very mundane and rather pointless.  It is the way that they conducted their relationship that made it so special, frustrating for Jack, yes, but had they been "like this always", then they'd just be like any other boring old couple.  The fact that they saw each other so little meant that every minute together was intense and treasured, and they had no time to take each other for granted.  Although I hate to say it, there really can be no other ending, it has to be tragic to make it all so beautiful, and this was perhaps the only way Ennis was ever going to be jolted into realizing his true feelings.

Welcome desperatehousewife!

And truth be told, I love the story as is -- tragic though it may be.   And yes, I had discussed in an old thread that given the circumstances and the character of the protagonists, there probably is no other ending.    But that is what makes all this so beautiful and deep.

[cowgirlKt!]

I can understand where you are all coming from, but this just doesn't do it for me.  Although I did find myself thinking that if they had just managed another 10 years maybe it would have been ok for them to at last be together.  But as most of you have said, then the whole story just becomes very mundane and rather pointless.  It is the way that they conducted their relationship that made it so special, frustrating for Jack, yes, but had they been "like this always", then they'd just be like any other boring old couple.  The fact that they saw each other so little meant that every minute together was intense and treasured, and they had no time to take each other for granted.  Although I hate to say it, there really can be no other ending, it has to be tragic to make it all so beautiful, and this was perhaps the only way Ennis was ever going to be jolted into realizing his true feelings.

yes you are right this had to be the ending

this had to be it otherwise there would be no messages in the story. It wouldnt teach us to make the most of everything and take nothing for granted if it was happily ever after as there would have been no struggles in their relationship and Ennis wouldnt have had the shock of Jack dying to make him realise his true feelings then we wouldnt have seen what happens if you dont grab every opporunity in life and hold onto it. It had to be the sad ending to show us the struggle that some have in the world just because they love the same sex and makes us realise (if we dont already) that some people in the world are cruel and not understanding and this film shows how love is something felt by EVERYONE and its a beautiful thing. I have read in a book i have BBM the impact of a film, many a story how someones been either against or not understood gay love but then watching this film and it moving them so much they now see it all in a different light. The way the film is, is what has changed peoples lives for the better even if the ending is VERY sad. But it has dont a positive thing, made us change our lives for the better. So it isnt all bad.

    Just saw the video, and I think it worked.  We know it's not what happened, but there was some emotional release in seeing a different ending.
And the sound track worked just as well for an escape as for a tragedy.  The music is kind of strange that way - did anybody else notice it is both sad AND triumphant?  As if, in the film, they lost, but love won?

i see what you mean about the music...it does kinda work but im so used to associating it with the way the film really goes its not easy to see it as going with a positive ending...i do see what you mean though! the video is a cute idea if you want a change i guess hehe

[titabeille]

I try to find the right words but it's difficult to me to explain in english 

If Jack was not killed, the story would probably follow the same way than in the movie :  Ennis always shared between desire and guilt, and Jack always unsatisfied and sad.  Jack's death is the only way to show at Ennis how much it's to late and how much he has wasted his life  :\'(. 

But, it's another possiblility : Jack and Ennis spend the rest of their life together in a ranch    That's what some brokies tell in "fan fictions"  ..;A happy end  ...But in real life, happy ends are rares.

[tpe]

I try to find the right words but it's difficult to me to explain in english 

If Jack was not killed, the story would probably follow the same way than in the movie :  Ennis always shared between desire and guilt, and Jack always unsatisfied and sad.  Jack's death is the only way to show at Ennis how much it's to late and how much he has wasted his life  :\'(. 

But, it's another possiblility : Jack and Ennis spend the rest of their life together in a ranch    That's what some brokies tell in "fan fictions"  ..;A happy end  ...But in real life, happy ends are rares.

Not to sound too cynical, but I tend to agree that happy endings are indeed rare in real life.  But we can put this aside and point out that the ending of BBM is not something contrived or artificial -- we arrive at it based on the characterization of both Ennis and jack, and perhaps some people would even say that such an end would have been inevitable, given the characterizations.  And I certainly agree that Jack's death was the only way by which -- ironically -- Ennis came to a full realization of what love truly is.

[babytammy7]

Annie said that that was the only way things could end, there was not other ending possible for Ennis and Jack.

But I don't agree with brokies who said that a happy ending would be artificial, not special and they'd just be like any other boring old couple.....Are happy couples boring just because they are happy? I know that BBM is perfect the way it is, and I'd change NOTHING there; in fact I think it's a masterpiece, a work of art. But I don't think that happy endings are bad or are not meaningful. What about Shelter, Latter Days, La Vita e Bella, etc? Happy endings has a lot of things to teach us too. Life can be bad and complicate but not always, friends. We need hope and faith, we have to have hope and faith. So we have to believe in happy endings, we have to believe that sometimes dreams come true. Without hope men wouldn't have flight, had not being free from slavery, had not visited the moon. Happy endings are not so rare in this life. People fight to reach their dreams, and while there's a human being out there fighting, happy endings are possible.

I don't think that people had not been so moved by BBM is there had been a happy ending. Just look at the 130 pages of posts we wrote about Shelter, or just look at those thousands people who are reading BBM fics since January 2006 looking for a happy ending, needing to read a better ending for Ennis and Jack, wishing that one of those happy endings could be true, swooning when they read about Ennis and Jack being together forever!! Imagine a man, fighting for his dreams over 20 years, going through pain and sadness, carrying loneliness like the most heavy burden...I bet you'd cry; and then after all those troubles and misery, he got what he needed all his life so much. Just imagine that, and now don't tell me that you'd not cry in that very moment when he reaches his dream, when he smiles so wide, and he's happy and safe at last. I bet you'd be smiling through tears. A happy ending can move us as much as a sad one. We need joy, that's too damn beautiful.

What I'm trying to say is that BBM is perfect as it is; no way it could end in another way. But I just DON'T believe that happy endings can't teach us anything. Life teach us a lot of things too when we are happy. That give us strength to go on. We learn when we have a child, when we fall in love, when we meet that special friend, when we feel loved and safe. We learn from love, and love can bring us joy, don't forget it. We were so moved at the end of BBM not because his sad ending, but because Ennis at last found what was love. BBM was about love not about sadness, even when that hurts like hell.

That's only my humble opinion. Thanks!! 

[atalley]

   Great thoughts, Tammy!!