Topic: What if... ?!

[tpe]

Annie said that that was the only way things could end, there was not other ending possible for Ennis and Jack.

But I don't agree with brokies who said that a happy ending would be artificial, not special and they'd just be like any other boring old couple.....Are happy couples boring just because they are happy? I know that BBM is perfect the way it is, and I'd change NOTHING there; in fact I think it's a masterpiece, a work of art. But I don't think that happy endings are bad or are not meaningful. What about Shelter, Latter Days, La Vita e Bella, etc? Happy endings has a lot of things to teach us too. Life can be bad and complicate but not always, friends. We need hope and faith, we have to have hope and faith. So we have to believe in happy endings, we have to believe that sometimes dreams come true. Without hope men wouldn't have flight, had not being free from slavery, had not visited the moon. Happy endings are not so rare in this life. People fight to reach their dreams, and while there's a human being out there fighting, happy endings are possible.

I don't think that people had not been so moved by BBM is there had been a happy ending. Just look at the 130 pages of posts we wrote about Shelter, or just look at those thousands people who are reading BBM fics since January 2006 looking for a happy ending, needing to read a better ending for Ennis and Jack, wishing that one of those happy endings could be true, swooning when they read about Ennis and Jack being together forever!! Imagine a man, fighting for his dreams over 20 years, going through pain and sadness, carrying loneliness like the most heavy burden...I bet you'd cry; and then after all those troubles and misery, he got what he needed all his life so much. Just imagine that, and now don't tell me that you'd not cry in that very moment when he reaches his dream, when he smiles so wide, and he's happy and safe at last. I bet you'd be smiling through tears. A happy ending can move us as much as a sad one. We need joy, that's too damn beautiful.

What I'm trying to say is that BBM is perfect as it is; no way it could end in another way. But I just DON'T believe that happy endings can't teach us anything. Life teach us a lot of things too when we are happy. That give us strength to go on. We learn when we have a child, when we fall in love, when we meet that special friend, when we feel loved and safe. We learn from love, and love can bring us joy, don't forget it. We were so moved at the end of BBM not because his sad ending, but because Ennis at last found what was love. BBM was about love not about sadness, even when that hurts like hell.

That's only my humble opinion. Thanks!! 

Hello Tammy.

I don't think a happy ending are necessarily artificial.  But IMO, given the characters of Ennis and Jack as outlined by Proulx and as developed in the movie, it would seem contrived to bring a deus ex machina in the end.  A happy ending would indeed be possible if we tweak the characterization abit -- that would mean that Ennis would have had to have been developed a bit "softer", for example, to show that a change of heart did come about.  IN the end, it is up to the skill of the writer to make these subtle tweaks in characterization in order to make an alrernative BBM ending workable.

It is good that you take "Shelter" for an example.  Notice that the entire movie revolved around Zach's gradual discovery and acceptance of who he really was and what he wanted to do.  You could compare him to the Ennis character in a very superficial sense, but we notice immediately the vast differences between them.  Moreover, the setting of 21st Century California is vastly different from 1960s Wyoming.  In the context of the former, we would think it unnatural if Zach's friends and sister DID make such a big deal about his emerging gayness.  The conflict in the entire story was about Zach coming to terms with himself and not coming to terms with the world and people around him.

I would say that given how the story of "Shelter" was developed, it would be contrived IMO to put a tragic end to the finale.  Would you consider writers who would want to create an alternative ending to Shelter?  An ending that would be unbelievably tragic?   I doubt that they would succeed, if they stay true to the characterization and background of the original movie.

[babytammy7]

Hey Thomas, friend, I totally agree with you!!! I've never said the contrary!! If you re read my post you'll see that I love BBM as it is and I think that no other ending is possible!!! BBM is perfect, and I agree with Annie when she said that there was no other possible ending for Ennis and Jack.

I only wanted to let you know that I don't think that happy endings are not powerful. I was not talking necessarily about BBM, but about happy endings in general!!! That's why I talked about Shelter and Latter Days, like saying that happy stories have a true deep strong meaning too, and they can teach us a lot of things too.

Do you think that only tragic endings are possible if we want to learn something about life and love? I know you don't, right? 

[tpe]

Hey Thomas, friend, I totally agree with you!!! I've never said the contrary!! If you re read my post you'll see that I love BBM as it is and I think that no other ending is possible!!! BBM is perfect, and I agree with Annie when she said that there was no other possible ending for Ennis and Jack.

I only wanted to let you know that I don't think that happy endings are not powerful. I was not talking necessarily about BBM, but about happy endings in general!!! That's why I talked about Shelter and Latter Days, like saying that happy stories have a true deep strong meaning too, and they can teach us a lot of things too.

Do you think that only tragic endings are possible if we want to learn something about life and love? I know you don't, right? 

Hello Tammy. 

And I too agree that you can write something that would give BBM a happy ending -- one just has to tweak the characterization and add/subract a few things to get it.  The themes are universal, and we can reshape them in such a way as to make sense. 

[rimasworld]

Lilie, I know what you mean about denial. you just don't want to believe that. When I first saw the movie I actually didn't notice the "DECEASED" stamp on the postcard. so when Ennis called lureen and she started telling him what'd happend I thought "okay, he had an accident and broke his face, he's probably in the hospital and now Ennis is going to visit him and realize that he can't live without him..." I just couldn't accept the possibility that he's dead. when Lureen said that he has drowned in his own blood, I think my heart had stopped beating.

I did notice the deceased stamped on the postcard and it was like I saw it right when Ennis did and I could feel his heart sink right along with mine.

[Matt Nasty]

I did notice the deceased stamped on the postcard and it was like I saw it right when Ennis did and I could feel his heart sink right along with mine.

same for me 

[tpe]

I did notice the deceased stamped on the postcard and it was like I saw it right when Ennis did and I could feel his heart sink right along with mine.

Welcome, rimasworld.

For me, it took a split second for the words on the postcard to register when I first saw the movie.

[smartestsonia]

I did notice the deceased stamped on the postcard and it was like I saw it right when Ennis did and I could feel his heart sink right along with mine.

I froze when I saw the postcard

[lancecowboy]

I just found this thread, and it's strange, I don't related to anyone else's comments here.  I must be really really odd...

First of all, I never yearned for an alternative happy ending, although I would welcome it, if there was a good explanation consistent with the story. Somehow, I can't imagine Jake faking his own death. So the video just didn't do anything for me. I still like it, as I would any other Brokeback Mountain video.

I was surprised to see the postcard scene right off the bat...and the phone call. Those are the most powerful scenes for me that usually have me in tears by the time I reach them. Yet, watching those clips clear eyed and unemotional for a change, I notice Ennis' face more clearly, and the shock as he froze starring at the post card, the confusion on the phone, and grief as Lureen related Jack's last moments...It's good to be able to see Heath's masterful performance more clearly.

Thank you.

[tpe]

I also never yearned particularly for a happy ending.  Is it human to admit that it is tragedy that grabs hold of one's heart?

 

[lancecowboy]

I also never yearned particularly for a happy ending.  Is it human to admit that it is tragedy that grabs hold of one's heart?
 

I love Shelter and Gone, but not Forgotten. I LOVE happy endings. 

It is not so much that I don't want a happy ending, tpe.

It's just that the death of Jack in the movie was so final and powerful, that I cannot in all fairness, find a satisfactory way to reconcile a happy ending, except through Ennis' transformation and happy life after Lightning Flat. That's my happy ending.

[tpe]

I think I understand, lance.  Whereas you love happy ending, you don't go out of the way to force it upon a story.  To each its own, I suppose.  The ending must have a consistency and integrity with the narrative.

[myprivatejack]

In spite of our wishes,the ending has a strenght and a...lesson? that a happy ending wouldn't apport.It's what I meant in my former post from a couple of months ago.Even if I love happy endings...

[lancecowboy]

I think I understand, lance.  Whereas you love happy ending, you don't go out of the way to force it upon a story.  To each its own, I suppose.  The ending must have a consistency and integrity with the narrative.

In spite of our wishes,the ending has a strenght and a...lesson? that a happy ending wouldn't apport.It's what I meant in my former post from a couple of months ago.Even if I love happy endings...

Exactly, tpe, mpj, I'd love to have a happy ending for Ennis and Jack, but then I'd miss out on the powerful and in many ways for me personally, a very comforting ending. I know most people find the ending extremely uncomfortable...suffocating, I believe was the word. However, for whatever strange reason, I found comfort, and you said, mpg, a kind of quiet spiritual strength in Ennis' stoic acceptance of his situation. I know many of you will disagree, but that's my take on the ending of the movie.

[tpe]

Sometimes, I think that there is no explicit lesson in the end, although the implicit message is there for all to see. 

The difficult thing about the ending of BBM the movie is that there is barely a hint of catharsis.  Yes, there is a degree of comfort in the end, but the feeling of sheer loneliness is simply overwhelming at times.  It is as if we remain unsure of redemption in any form...  I think this is what rankles with many of us here, especially those who desire a happier ending...

[lancecowboy]

Sometimes, I think that there is no explicit lesson in the end, although the implicit message is there for all to see. 

The difficult thing about the ending of BBM the movie is that there is barely a hint of catharsis.  Yes, there is a degree of comfort in the end, but the feeling of sheer loneliness is simply overwhelming at times.  It is as if we remain unsure of redemption in any form...  I think this is what rankles with many of us here, especially those who desire a happier ending...

Like I said, I know I am in the minority, perhaps even the oddball of one, who felt that there was redemption, that there was love in Ennis' life after Jack, in the form of love in his daughters, with Jack's Ma. JMO and we don't have to agree.

[myprivatejack]

Well,in this case and when I was speaking about lesson -which I put with a question mark,because it could be ambiguous-I meant that the ending could teach us to love,simply.To take profit of every moment we have with the beloved person without denying the reality,because it'd be to deny ourselves.To be true to ourselves and to this person; to live every single moment as the last one;to fight for what we wish,no matter the efforts;TO BE OURSELVES,in short.And I meant also that a happy ending wouldn't have this sense of redemption in Ennis figure that,unluckily,now has.Even if,I repeat,I would like a happy,conventional and loving ending...

[atalley]

  I just don't think that we would still be obsessed after all this time if the ending was a happy one. JMO

[Matt Nasty]

i agree atalley

[tpe]

Like I said, I know I am in the minority, perhaps even the oddball of one, who felt that there was redemption, that there was love in Ennis' life after Jack, in the form of love in his daughters, with Jack's Ma. JMO and we don't have to agree.

I don't think this is oddball, lance.  I do think the intent of the film-makers was to imply some form of redemption.

[tpe]

Well,in this case and when I was speaking about lesson -which I put with a question mark,because it could be ambiguous-I meant that the ending could teach us to love,simply.To take profit of every moment we have with the beloved person without denying the reality,because it'd be to deny ourselves.To be true to ourselves and to this person; to live every single moment as the last one;to fight for what we wish,no matter the efforts;TO BE OURSELVES,in short.And I meant also that a happy ending wouldn't have this sense of redemption in Ennis figure that,unluckily,now has.Even if,I repeat,I would like a happy,conventional and loving ending...

I agree with this, certainly.  I think the tragedy such as this shocks us into such as sense of realization.  This is indeed what I meant by an clear implicit lesson.

[tpe]

I just don't think that we would still be obsessed after all this time if the ending was a happy one. JMO

i agree atalley

The same with me!

[myprivatejack]

I just don't think that we would still be obsessed after all this time if the ending was a happy one. JMO

I agree too¡ Unlucky ending,that never completed love,has shocked us fairly more than an happy one,being as much nice love story as it could be even...

[tpe]

I agree too¡ Unlucky ending,that never completed love,has shocked us fairly more than an happy one,being as much nice love story as it could be even...

I think this is wht the Ancients had placed tragedy above comedy.  Tragedy has the power to move in a way that comedy has the power to see our own failings and laugh at them.  Whereas the latter is almost always gentle (if we are to ignore biting, bitter satire), the former can dislocate and purge us.

[myprivatejack]

I think this is wht the Ancients had placed tragedy above comedy.  Tragedy has the power to move in a way that comedy has the power to see our own failings and laugh at them.  Whereas the latter is almost always gentle (if we are to ignore biting, bitter satire), the former can dislocate and purge us.

I suppose that comedy can teach us to laugh at our failings,as you say,in a more passive way; whereas,tragedy can force us to make a further step,in a more active way,then...As they say,we never learn from the good things,but from the bad ones.

[lancecowboy]

I think this is wht the Ancients had placed tragedy above comedy.  Tragedy has the power to move in a way that comedy has the power to see our own failings and laugh at them.  Whereas the latter is almost always gentle (if we are to ignore biting, bitter satire), the former can dislocate and purge us.

I never did understand that in English class. Now that you mentioned it again, and I have the personal experience to compare the two, I must say, those Ancients sure were smart and wise.

Tragedy, when it touches the soul like Brokeback Mountain does, has more power than any comedy, fore sure. And when it transforms lives, whether by purging the soul through catharsis or by example, as in the life of Ennis, then it is also more noble than a gentle comedy. I think, tragedy stirs more powerful emotions than comedy, and has stronger power to change us.

Thanks, tpe.

[tpe]

I suppose that comedy can teach us to laugh at our failings,as you say,in a more passive way; whereas,tragedy can force us to make a further step,in a more active way,then...As they say,we never learn from the good things,but from the bad ones.

There is no way around tragedy -- it stares us in the face.  It is unrelenting and unforgiving.

[tpe]

I never did understand that in English class. Now that you mentioned it again, and I have the personal experience to compare the two, I must say, those Ancients sure were smart and wise.

Tragedy, when it touches the soul like Brokeback Mountain does, has more power than any comedy, fore sure. And when it transforms lives, whether by purging the soul through catharsis or by example, as in the life of Ennis, then it is also more noble than a gentle comedy. I think, tragedy stirs more powerful emotions than comedy, and has stronger power to change us.

Thanks, tpe.

It can certainly move us in a way that can purge us -- if not sometimes kill.  jack's death and Ennis's pain is not totally without redemption.  But it sears the heart, and like a burning brand, we have no choice but to remember.

[atalley]

Thomas...you said that perfectly.

[tpe]

Thanks atalley.  Is it human nature that we invariably remember the painful moments of our lives more than the happy ones?

 

[atalley]

I think you're mostly right about that.  It's the difficult times in our lives where we become stronger.  (Not that I don't think of all the great times too, though).