Topic: What if... ?!

[vedrana]

Welcome, but not necessary, I think. 

With enough money, they could have bought a ranch of their own, and not have planned to stay in the LF ranch. 

Yes, I think it was one excuse after another.  After the divorce and the sad scene of jack being turned away, I think Jack got it -- that there would always be some reason for Ennis to say "no".

Do you really believe that had Ennis agreed, John Twist would have let them stay and LIVE together in LF?

I seriously doubt that. 

I believe that having some money was a really good start for them.

And, yes! The divorce scene is the one after Jack's hopes sank. My poor Jack!  :\'(

[Matt Nasty]

Do you really believe that had Ennis agreed, John Twist would have let them stay and LIVE together in LF?

I seriously doubt that. 

I believe that having some money was a really good start for them.

And, yes! The divorce scene is the one after Jack's hopes sank. My poor Jack!  :\'(

:\'( :\'( :\'( it never really fails to get to me  :\'(

[tpe]

Do you really believe that had Ennis agreed, John Twist would have let them stay and LIVE together in LF?

I seriously doubt that. 

I believe that having some money was a really good start for them.

And, yes! The divorce scene is the one after Jack's hopes sank. My poor Jack!  :\'(

Well, some other members think that John Twist expected it!  That is, he wanted someone to help him manage the ranch, and anyone Jack brought in would be welcome.  This is a matter of interpretation/perception, of course.

As with Ennis always finding an excuse, I feel that John Twist would always have a bone to pick with his son...

[vedrana]

Well, some other members think that John Twist expected it!  That is, he wanted someone to help him manage the ranch, and anyone Jack brought in would be welcome.  This is a matter of interpretation/perception, of course.

As with Ennis always finding an excuse, I feel that John Twist would always have a bone to pick with his son...

I remember that someone said so about John Twist - that he expected a helping hand on the ranch, but would he accept that Jack and Ennis really LIVE together?

When he spoke about it in the LF scene (Jack had some idea that 2 of you....), he was deliberately hurting Ennis, but I am still not sure was John Twist aware of the real nature of E&J relationship. And if he was, would he let them live together in order to get help on the ranch? 

[tpe]

I remember that someone said so about John Twist - that he expected a helping hand on the ranch, but would he accept that Jack and Ennis really LIVE together?

When he spoke about it in the LF scene (Jack had some idea that 2 of you....), he was deliberately hurting Ennis, but I am still not sure was John Twist aware of the real nature of E&J relationship. And if he was, would he let them live together in order to get help on the ranch? 

Had Jack not died and succeeded in bringing Ennis back with him to LF, I suspect that Jack would inevitably have his way, even if John Twist had any objections.  I may be wrong in this, but Jack's persistence seems to suggest this.  If he succeeded in turning Ennis around, then what else would be impossible?

[vedrana]

Had Jack not died and succeeded in bringing Ennis back with him to LF, I suspect that Jack would inevitably have his way, even if John Twist had any objections.  I may be wrong in this, but Jack's persistence seems to suggest this.  If he succeeded in turning Ennis around, then what else would be impossible?

That would have been a living hell! I can't possibly imagine that 20-30 years ago, an old goat like John Twist would allow his son to bring his lover home and that JT would have no remarks and daily complaints which would have definitely lead to the end of Ennis's life on the farm.  IMO...

[LOVEmesomeEnnis]

It's because of the tragic ending to the film that BBM fanfic started. Somebody New is a MUST read for just about everyone here. It is beautifully written and so well-crafted in believability that it creates a seamless transition to an alternate reality of the end of the movie.

  It's about healing for those of us who need it after the fiilm.

   Annie Proulx evidentally said something to the effect that she was unable to envision any other ending for the characters.  But we can!

   Shelley


 

*raises hand* I NEED IT!!!

where can i find Somebody New??  i found a link but it didn't work, if someone can point me in the right direction i'd be forever grateful   i agree with everyone who said that the unhappy ending is inevitable, and without it the movie would lose a great deal of it's impact, it truly is a great tragedy and when i'm thinking logically i can convince myself i wouldn't have liked any other ending.... but when i'm lost in the characters and their pain and when i can't get the vision of Ennis' eternal loneliness out of my head, it's then that i long for a different outcome with lots of happiness or at least just some closure for him.  the thought of his life stretching out before him, alone, all that gorgeous sweetness just going to waste

it would be awesome to have that happy ending in my head, for days when the real ending is just too much

[tpe]

*raises hand* I NEED IT!!!

where can i find Somebody New??  i found a link but it didn't work, if someone can point me in the right direction i'd be forever grateful   i agree with everyone who said that the unhappy ending is inevitable, and without it the movie would lose a great deal of it's impact, it truly is a great tragedy and when i'm thinking logically i can convince myself i wouldn't have liked any other ending.... but when i'm lost in the characters and their pain and when i can't get the vision of Ennis' eternal loneliness out of my head, it's then that i long for a different outcome with lots of happiness or at least just some closure for him.  the thought of his life stretching out before him, alone, all that gorgeous sweetness just going to waste

it would be awesome to have that happy ending in my head, for days when the real ending is just too much

I think that perhaps our members in the fanfic part of the forum can help you find this? 

[jedibarrister]

I read an essay about that last parting scene.  One, it was the first time that Jack really opened up about his feelings for Ennis and vice verse.  These two spent 20 years not really owning up to what they were doing with each other.  They pretended, for each other anyway, that they were straight and somehow liked being together while not being "queer".  But Jack's revelations about Mexico, about wanting a life with Ennis over anything and anyone else, wishing he knew how to quit Jack were in a sense new ground for them...new admissions, guilt, shame, etc.  And what happens?  Ennis crumples into a heap like the end of the first summer when Jack did leave him.  He also gets enraged that Jack would be with other men.  Women he could deal with b/c (a) it was "normal" and (b) it was meaningless to their affair.  But Ennis' reaction shows that he really has deep feelings and who knows how he has shown it over the 20  years.

Two, Jack finally learns that Ennis essentially trapped himself into a life where he could not provide for his family.  He took dead end jobs, instead of say the one at the power company, so he could quit on a moment's notice to be with Jack.  He suffered in the eyes of his family and community by not being a provider...all for Jack. 

Three, he's imprisoned by his sense of responsibility.  When he got a divorce, it wasn't the freedom he thought it would be given that he now had child support.  So the job became more important than before.  He couldn't take dead-end jobs for Jack anymore. 

Which leads me to four, the "what if" question (thanks for bearing with me): Jack dies just as Ennis is totally freed from all responsibility.  Junior is 19 and has been child-support-less for a year.  Jenny is at most a year away from falling off Ennis' financial responsibility.  So after all the declarations on that last day, after knowing that a year from then, Ennis didn't "need" to keep that job anymore, and knowing that Junior, who he was closest to would be leaving, what if Jack didn't die and they got together in November as planned?  What would happen if there was no reason for Ennis to stay in Riverton or work that job? 

I think that Ennis would have perhaps gotten together with Jack more often but not moved up to Lighting Flat.  His willingness to quit the job for Junior's wedding only showed one thing: Ennis learned from his mistake. 

[tpe]

I think that Ennis would have perhaps gotten together with Jack more often but not moved up to Lighting Flat.  His willingness to quit the job for Junior's wedding only showed one thing: Ennis learned from his mistake. 

I had wondered about this too, and felt that things may not have changed that much.  I think that the fundamental shift shown in Ennios's acceptance of Jr.'s invitation was because of Jack's death and what it taught him.  perhaps if Jack had continued to live, things might not have changed.

And yet...

Perhaps the Last Confrontation did have an effect on Ennis.  Witness his final breaking off with Cassie after the meeting.  I somehow detect a subtle change of heart -- perhaps a new willingness to "take the plunge."  But it is really hard to say...

[tpe]

In the SS and in the film Junior is 17 when Jack dies. In the SS Ennis talks about Junior being 17 the last time Jack and him met in the mountain: Ennis put his arm around Jack, pulled him close, said he saw his girls about once a month, Alma, Jr., a shy seventeen-year-old with his beanpole length, Francine a little live wire.
And about the film you can read in the original screenplay of the movie that Junior was also 17 when Jack dies, and the scene between her and Ennis in Ennis' trailer happens more than two years after the last time Ennis and Jack saw each other (the screenplay set the confrontation scene between Ennis and Jack in 1981, and Junior's visit to Ennis in 1984). 

OT: for more about the differences between screenplay and story, check out the thread on the timeline of the last scenes. 

[jedibarrister]

With Jack's death, Ennis finally learns what Jack had been trying to teach him: life ain't worth living without love.  And it's true what someone pointed out: after the last parting, Cassie got dumped.  On some level, that frank discussion with Jack did change his viewpoint on himself and his life.  Would the old Ennis have married Cassie?  Or would he not regardless b/c he couldn't afford to support a wife?

[tpe]

I agree with this. Annie P said that she wrote Jack's death because it was the only way that the story could end, the only way their relationship could find a resolution, because Ennis was not gonna change and the situation was unbearable for both of them. It's with Jack's death when Ennis changes, when love finds a way out, when Ennis learns, understands things and accepts them.

It is sad.    A change of heart comes to some of us right after a door is closed forever.  Not that it is all in vain... 

[tpe]

With Jack's death, Ennis finally learns what Jack had been trying to teach him: life ain't worth living without love.  And it's true what someone pointed out: after the last parting, Cassie got dumped.  On some level, that frank discussion with Jack did change his viewpoint on himself and his life.  Would the old Ennis have married Cassie?  Or would he not regardless b/c he couldn't afford to support a wife?

It's hard to read Ennis as far as Cassie was concerned.  My best bet was that he would have continued to have kept the relationship in "limbo" -- never committing, yet never rejecting.  Perhaps Cassie would have given up sooner.  Perhaps she already was considering an exit strategy...

[jedibarrister]

She wasn't looking for an out.  In the scene in the movie, she was looking for a way back in.  But she was more of a character in the movie than in the book.  In the story, she was just a waitress Ennis was "putting the blocks to".  What the heck does that mean anyway?

[lancecowboy]

I read an essay about that last parting scene.  One, it was the first time that Jack really opened up about his feelings for Ennis and vice verse.  These two spent 20 years not really owning up to what they were doing with each other.  They pretended, for each other anyway, that they were straight and somehow liked being together while not being "queer".  But Jack's revelations about Mexico, about wanting a life with Ennis over anything and anyone else, wishing he knew how to quit Jack were in a sense new ground for them...new admissions, guilt, shame, etc.  And what happens?  Ennis crumples into a heap like the end of the first summer when Jack did leave him.  He also gets enraged that Jack would be with other men.  Women he could deal with b/c (a) it was "normal" and (b) it was meaningless to their affair.  But Ennis' reaction shows that he really has deep feelings and who knows how he has shown it over the 20  years.

Two, Jack finally learns that Ennis essentially trapped himself into a life where he could not provide for his family.  He took dead end jobs, instead of say the one at the power company, so he could quit on a moment's notice to be with Jack.  He suffered in the eyes of his family and community by not being a provider...all for Jack. 

Three, he's imprisoned by his sense of responsibility.  When he got a divorce, it wasn't the freedom he thought it would be given that he now had child support.  So the job became more important than before.  He couldn't take dead-end jobs for Jack anymore. 

Which leads me to four, the "what if" question (thanks for bearing with me): Jack dies just as Ennis is totally freed from all responsibility.  Junior is 19 and has been child-support-less for a year.  Jenny is at most a year away from falling off Ennis' financial responsibility.  So after all the declarations on that last day, after knowing that a year from then, Ennis didn't "need" to keep that job anymore, and knowing that Junior, who he was closest to would be leaving, what if Jack didn't die and they got together in November as planned?  What would happen if there was no reason for Ennis to stay in Riverton or work that job? 

I think that Ennis would have perhaps gotten together with Jack more often but not moved up to Lighting Flat.  His willingness to quit the job for Junior's wedding only showed one thing: Ennis learned from his mistake. 

Wow! Great post.

I think Jackster posted a juxtaposition of the two scenes (in the alley with Ennis punching the wall, and the final confrontation when Ennis fell in a heap in Jack's arms). It took Ennis a year to figure that the alley scene was about needing Jack. It took the exchange with Cassie at the diner for him to see that the final confrontation was about love.

[lancecowboy]

With Jack's death, Ennis finally learns what Jack had been trying to teach him: life ain't worth living without love. 

This makes great sense of Ennis' question for Junior, "Does he love you?"

And it's true what someone pointed out: after the last parting, Cassie got dumped.  On some level, that frank discussion with Jack did change his viewpoint on himself and his life.  Would the old Ennis have married Cassie?  Or would he not regardless b/c he couldn't afford to support a wife?

I don't think Ennis could have ever married Cassie. She loved him enough to have supported him regardless, but Ennis wouldn't do that. That's not his style. If Jack wasn't in the picture, Ennis might have married Cassie, just to get on with a life. But with Jack holding his heart, Ennis couldn't marry anyone, not even the one he already married. That's why the divorce, as much as it hurt. Ennis was too honest to fake a relationship.

Having a bit of fun with Cassie was one thing (as long as she wants it and imposes on him), but marriage means something else. Ennis would never do that. It's also why he dumped her after the final confrantation. He knew unequivocally by that point that he could never live with anyone but Jack.

Ennis finally figured out "I wish I knew how to quit you!" translates to "I can never quit you!"

[lancecowboy]

She wasn't looking for an out.  In the scene in the movie, she was looking for a way back in.  But she was more of a character in the movie than in the book.  In the story, she was just a waitress Ennis was "putting the blocks to".  What the heck does that mean anyway?

I think Cassie wasn't mentioned in the book except in that line. The character was created only for the movie. I think it rounded out Ennis' character very well and provided the pivotal scene at the diner. I think Annie Proulx welcomed the character in the movie.

I don't know for sure what "putting the blocks" mean but I suspect it's similar to "having a bit of fun" in Britain, i.e. just a fling that's not serious. I may be wrong, however, so I'd like to hear from those who really know.

[tpe]

She wasn't looking for an out.  In the scene in the movie, she was looking for a way back in.  But she was more of a character in the movie than in the book.  In the story, she was just a waitress Ennis was "putting the blocks to".  What the heck does that mean anyway?

Personally, I do tend to agree with you here. 

As for "putting the blocks to", I think of Ennis fending her off with sticks and stones.    Well, from this statement, I get the feeling that Ennis was trying to tell Jack that he was an "unwilling" partner in the affair.  Hard to say if this was true or not, given that we really don't "see" Cassie in the story.  Although we have no reason to doubt Ennis on this point, we are also unsure of his motivation of being an involved in this affair in the first place.  Was the attention flattering to him?  Did it provide him with some cover? 

[jedibarrister]

"Putting the blocks to" means copulation: http://www.sex-lexis.com/Sex-Dictionary/put%20the%20blocks%20to  So he wasn't telling Jack he was an unwilling partner.  He was "manning up" for his "friend".  He was with Cassie simply because Cassie reeled him in.  He's passive...he doesn't seek anyone out except Jack.

It took the exchange with Cassie at the diner for him to see that the final confrontation was about love.

You really think Ennis was clueless that his "friend" was really his lover?

[tpe]

"Putting the blocks to" means copulation: http://www.sex-lexis.com/Sex-Dictionary/put%20the%20blocks%20to  So he wasn't telling Jack he was an unwilling partner.  He was "manning up" for his "friend".  He was with Cassie simply because Cassie reeled him in.  He's passive...he doesn't seek anyone out except Jack.

You really think Ennis was clueless that his "friend" was really his lover?

Well, I have no disagreement with you here.  Perhaps "passive" is a better term than "unwilling".  There is certainly a difference.  Still, my point is that he didn't actively search out Cassie or encourage it.   And to a certain extent, I do think that Ennis was not always willing to go along -- especially when it came to Cassie's ultimate plans of marriage.  Had Ennis been passive in this instance, he would have just gone ahead and allow her to marry him.

I think deep down, Ennis knew that he was in love with Jack and they were lovers, for all intents and purposes.  But it wasn't this that was the problem -- as I have stated in other threads. 

[myprivatejack]

Well, I have no disagreement with you here.  Perhaps "passive" is a better term than "unwilling".  There is certainly a difference.  Still, my point is that he didn't actively search out Cassie or encourage it.   And to a certain extent, I do think that Ennis was not always willing to go along -- especially when it came to Cassie's ultimate plans of marriage.  Had Ennis been passive in this instance, he would have just gone ahead and allow her to marry him.

I think deep down, Ennis knew that he was in love with Jack and they were lovers, for all intents and purposes.  But it wasn't this that was the problem -- as I have stated in other threads. 

Well,I think Ennis was "passive" in the sense that he let things happen and time fly,because this was the proper cover before society rules; this doesn't mean,however,that he was looking in an "active" way some woman who would play this cover's role...
But he wasn't "as passive" as to let this situation arriving to the last consequences,because IMO, he didn't want Cassie to be unlucky and bitter as Alma finished by being.In this sense,he knew how to play the role of "normal" man without letting his real and innest way of being...and feeling.And because,of course,I agree with you in that he was always aware of his love for Jack and the real nature of their relationship;a very different thing is that he accepted this inside him,that he really wished to give it this name,that he really felt at ease with these feelings...All in spite of himself,and that was the cause of all their tragedy;that he was really aware of what they were for one another...

[lancecowboy]

"Putting the blocks to" means copulation: http://www.sex-lexis.com/Sex-Dictionary/put%20the%20blocks%20to  So he wasn't telling Jack he was an unwilling partner.  He was "manning up" for his "friend".  He was with Cassie simply because Cassie reeled him in.  He's passive...he doesn't seek anyone out except Jack.

You really think Ennis was clueless that his "friend" was really his lover?

That's an interesting term...passive. 

I agree with you, jedibarrister, and even go further to say that Ennis was passive even with Jack. He didn't send no postcard except to tell Jack he got divorced. The only other postcard he sent got returned to sender. He never called Jack otherwise Loreen would have spoken with him before then. All in all, Ennis was passive...but aggressive. That's why Jack said he was kept on a short leash. Things had to go his way or the highway. Ennis wouldn't admit it to himself that they were lovers, just two buddies having a bit of fun.

It's not until Cassie blurted out in tears at the diner that girls don't fall in love for fun, that Ennis was clued into this thing with no reins that he had for Jack. It sure ain't no one shot deal, and twenty years sure ain't just for a bit of fun. That's when he sent that postcard, wishing he could make it before November. Too late.

When he found the two shirts in Jack's closet, he knew, no matter what John Twist insinuated, that Jack was also in it for love. Nobody keeps two shirts like that, unwashed, enshrined, treasured for twenty years for a bit of fun. That's when he knew, when Jack said, I could never quit you, you d@mn son a wh@ring b!otw. You got me good. That's when Ennis knew that he also could never quit Jack. "I swear."

[tpe]

Would all of us agree that part of Ennis's "passivity" stems from his reluctance to repeat what he and Alma went through?  So was his reluctance to commit a clear indication on his part to spare Cassie the same pain?

[myprivatejack]

Would all of us agree that part of Ennis's "passivity" stems from his reluctance to repeat what he and Alma went through?  So was his reluctance to commit a clear indication on his part to spare Cassie the same pain?

But he wasn't "as passive" as to let this situation arriving to the last consequences,because IMO, he didn't want Cassie to be unlucky and bitter as Alma finished by being.In this sense,he knew how to play the role of "normal" man without letting his real and innest way of being...and feeling.

I'm quoting myself,but here I'm saying more or less what you have asked here; one thing is have a cover before society and another very different one to repeat a situation he knew for sure that would mean sorrow and loneliness for Cassie.

[tpe]

I'm quoting myself,but here I'm saying more or less what you have asked here; one thing is have a cover before society and another very different one to repeat a situation he knew for sure that would mean sorrow and loneliness for Cassie.

I feel the same way.  For me, a part of it stemmed from his desire not to cause similar pain for someone who loved him...

[myprivatejack]

I feel the same way.  For me, a part of it stemmed from his desire not to cause similar pain for someone who loved him...

Yes,and this is also one of his multiple contradictions; to wish to have a cover of respectability before society,but   to fear to create this own cover.It's like "with or without you".

[tpe]

Yes,and this is also one of his multiple contradictions; to wish to have a cover of respectability before society,but   to fear to create this own cover.It's like "with or without you".

I guess we are all in agreement that Cassie loved him, correct? 

Well, I think it was good and admirable on Ennis's part not to have used Cassie as cover by a second marriage.  His final repudiation of Cassie may look cruel.  But I do think that it saved her from a great deal of pain in the long run.

[myprivatejack]

That's right.He was fully aware that,in spite of all his fears of being seen as a "queer",he couldn't use an human being and her feelings to avoid this.And he was full aware too that he couldn't love her as she wished because,no matter how many times he denied it,he was already in love with Jack.

[tpe]

The irony is that Ennis's final desire to come clean with Cassie probably moves him closer to the realization that his love for Jack had to be lived -- and not in a clandestine fashion?  I can't help but equate his repudiation of Cassie to a move closer to his coming to terms with a life with Jack.

I know that there is no proof of this.  But I do somehow sense a small but significant shift.  I go back and forth in this, but for the most part, I felt that had Jack lives, something may have changed a little...