Topic: Which is the Greater Sorrow?

[BBBOY]

I think you are correct Frenchcda.  I think the greatest tragedy is when we choose to suffer at the hands of the world rather than taking a chance of loving another.  Living life with "if" instead of "when" leads to a path of unhappiness.  What is the saying, "Nothing ventured, nothing gained."  This is why I want to give without reservation, love thoroughly, receive openly and when life is over...think back about these times with bittersweet emotions...remembering all of the wonderful people I have met and come to love and feeling sad for the loves we have lost along the way.  I will always look back on this adventure with joy and encouragement...knowing I will never be alone in this great big world...since I will always be surrounded by the love of those I have come to know here.

My ex's favorite phrase has always been, "If only." It's one of the reasons I finally left him. We have to accept the decisions we make in life and move on with them no matter how hard or wrong they may be. Ennis ultimately has the greater sorrow because he is still alive and can ponder the life he has and the life he could have had. There is a very strong part of me that believes that Ennis moves on. We all have to move forward. To remain static is to die and I just won't let myself believe that all Ennis can look forward to is a sad lonely death.

[frenchcda]

BBBoy I wish I could share the same sentiment, I do all heartily view my life at this point as lonely as Ennis, yet I can see and know that hopes is what kept him alive until his end came, it is not that I have come to resent this world or the life I live, simply that I have become silence in itself carrying hope as my lover, and with some luck time only will tell, for now I haven't gained the knwoledge to foresee the future only to feel the past and to accept the present

[sam]

Oh, such a wonderful question! It brings tears to my eyes...

Soooooooooo difficult to find an answer!

But ok, here's my 2 cents: (you might not all agree with me though...)

I think that while both of them suffer immensely, I think that ultimately (if you HAVE to make a choice!), that Jack got the "short-end-of the-stick"...
You see: Up until Jack's death, they were both living "half-lives", that's true.  That's a given.
Sorrowful, and heartbreaking for both.

But:

Jack dies not knowing the FULL extent of Ennis' love for him.  (Hell, I wonder if Ennis himself knew that at that point in time...!)  Ennis was always so "closed"...he never let his feelings show except in tiny doses...I'm sure that Jack must have wondered about so many things concerning Ennis' love for him...

While:

Ennis, at the end, finally realizes how much Jack loved him...(finds the shirts, had that awful conversation with Jack's dad which reveals to him just how much Jack had always loved him...)

So, approaching from this viewpoint, I tend to think that Ennis ended up with just that little "more" than Jack did...

And doesn't the movie end with that small sparkle of "hope" for Ennis?  Ennis finally learns (the hard way) that he has to make some changes in his life/behavior in order for him to find true happiness?  (That whole last scene with daughter Alma Jr.?)

That could mean that...if he wants to...or is capable of doing so...there might still be a future ahead...  Maybe not one (as fulfilling or as complete as) with Jack anymore, but...(?)

For Jack, it all ends so abruptly...so dramatically. No chance at all to resolve anything...  He dies young.  :'(

Maybe I'm wrong.  I don't really know...

[tpe]

Maybe I'm wrong.  I don't really know...

I don't think there is a right answer.  We all have our own personal answers, buried deep inside.

Thanks.   

[BBBOY]

BBBoy I wish I could share the same sentiment, I do all heartily view my life at this point as lonely as Ennis, yet I can see and know that hopes is what kept him alive until his end came, it is not that I have come to resent this world or the life I live, simply that I have become silence in itself carrying hope as my lover, and with some luck time only will tell, for now I haven't gained the knwoledge to foresee the future only to feel the past and to accept the present

frenchcda

I tried to write you an email but realized it was better to respond here. My life, like yours is as lonely as Ennis. I have never felt so abandoned and adrift in my life. But no one and nothing is going to throw a lifeline to me. I don't have an Alma Jr like Ennis. In the movie and perhaps even in the story I see Alma Jr as a lifeline, one Ennis will grab onto. Well, if no one is gonna throw me a lifeline then I'm gonna have to find my own. I refuse to believe that I will die lonely and loveless even if that is the way I eventually do die. You said the word, "Hope," as long as we hope then it can be. Give up hope and you give up everything. Peace and hope to you friend.

[glacier1]

In addiition to the many fine observations so far, I felt the depth of Ennis' sorrow is heightened by the guilt he might bear in thinking that he was the cause of Jack's death.   If Ennis had found a way to better embrace their relationship, Jack may not have sought out the other man Jack's father reveals to Ennis.   I've thought that one of the many things Ennis might 'swear' to Jack at the finale would be 'if I knew your death/murder was a possibility of my reticence, things would have been different'.

[BBBOY]

In addiition to the many fine observations so far, I felt the depth of Ennis' sorrow is heightened by the guilt he might bear in thinking that he was the cause of Jack's death.   If Ennis had found a way to better embrace their relationship, Jack may not have sought out the other man Jack's father reveals to Ennis.   I've thought that one of the many things Ennis might 'swear' to Jack at the finale would be 'if I knew your death/murder was a possibility of my reticence, things would have been different'.

I agree completely.

[tpe]

BBBoy I wish I could share the same sentiment, I do all heartily view my life at this point as lonely as Ennis, yet I can see and know that hopes is what kept him alive until his end came, it is not that I have come to resent this world or the life I live, simply that I have become silence in itself carrying hope as my lover, and with some luck time only will tell, for now I haven't gained the knwoledge to foresee the future only to feel the past and to accept the present

frenchcda

I tried to write you an email but realized it was better to respond here. My life, like yours is as lonely as Ennis. I have never felt so abandoned and adrift in my life. But no one and nothing is going to throw a lifeline to me. I don't have an Alma Jr like Ennis. In the movie and perhaps even in the story I see Alma Jr as a lifeline, one Ennis will grab onto. Well, if no one is gonna throw me a lifeline then I'm gonna have to find my own. I refuse to believe that I will die lonely and loveless even if that is the way I eventually do die. You said the word, "Hope," as long as we hope then it can be. Give up hope and you give up everything. Peace and hope to you friend.

frenchcda and BBBOY, I am moved by the thoughts and feelings you share with us.  Any word of consolation and assurance I can give will fall short and will only sound hollow -- this I am certain.  But I can express my appreciation to both of you.

At this stage in my life, I am a little like Ennis before Jack's death (emotionally speaking, that is) -- always on the side of caution and so guarded as far as emotions go.  This story has made me question whether I am really in control of myself.

[n061857]

BBBoy I wish I could share the same sentiment, I do all heartily view my life at this point as lonely as Ennis, yet I can see and know that hopes is what kept him alive until his end came, it is not that I have come to resent this world or the life I live, simply that I have become silence in itself carrying hope as my lover, and with some luck time only will tell, for now I haven't gained the knwoledge to foresee the future only to feel the past and to accept the present

frenchcda

I tried to write you an email but realized it was better to respond here. My life, like yours is as lonely as Ennis. I have never felt so abandoned and adrift in my life. But no one and nothing is going to throw a lifeline to me. I don't have an Alma Jr like Ennis. In the movie and perhaps even in the story I see Alma Jr as a lifeline, one Ennis will grab onto. Well, if no one is gonna throw me a lifeline then I'm gonna have to find my own. I refuse to believe that I will die lonely and loveless even if that is the way I eventually do die. You said the word, "Hope," as long as we hope then it can be. Give up hope and you give up everything. Peace and hope to you friend.

frenchcda and BBBOY, I am moved by the thoughts and feelings you share with us.  Any word of consolation and assurance I can give will fall short and will only sound hollow -- this I am certain.  But I can express my appreciation to both of you.

At this stage in my life, I am a little like Ennis before Jack's death (emotionally speaking, that is) -- always on the side of caution and so guarded as far as emotions go.  This story has made me question whether I am really in control of myself.

Please all, hold on to your hopes.  I identified so much with Ennis in the second scene where he collapses,  because I know at one time (and for quite some time) I felt that I felt I was nothing and nowhere.  This scene made me relive those emotions.  I actually felt again like the hollow shell that Ennis had become, so afraid to let any part of me show.  There is hope.  Today I am a happily married woman with two wonderful kids, who fulfill my life to no end.   PLEASE DO NOT GIVE UP HOPE.  Happiness may be right around the corner or sometimes right under our nose, if we just open ourselves up to the possibility.

I do not know anyone's circumstance and do not mean to sound trite, but my brother gave up hope and took his own life.  If only he could have seen in the mirror what the rest of the world saw.  And from all your exchanges and wonderful insights, I see that you are all intelligient, thoughtful and loving individuals who have much to give this world. 

I do not mean to insinuate that anyone here is suicidal.  I only want you to continue to have hope.  I'm sorry. I'll get off my soapbox now.  Sorry to ramble.                                          - Nancy

[monicita]

I am deeply moved by this thread. Nancy, no need to apologize: I can feel that you really care about frenchcda and bbboy. Even though I do think that sometimes it is necessary to be able to let out your hopelessness, and to be understood and accepted. So, frenchcda and bbboy, I don't know if this helps, but I am here to read and to listen. And to think about what you have written.

For me, life waxes and wanes in cycles. And sometimes there are specific causes that start a new cycle. bbm seems to have started a new cycle for so many people (me included). Maybe Jacks death started something new for Ennis, as somebody already suggested. That is what I would want to believe. It gives him the chance to rethink his life. I also believe that Jack finally let go of Ennis during their last meeting (during the flashback). He loved him enough to let him go when he saw how Ennis was hurting inside. What am I trying to say? I think both of them, Jack when he managed to let go, Ennis, when he finally realized how much he loved Jack, were confronted with a great sorrow, but sorrow can be a healer of souls, can break you open and make you find new meaning and new life. In the end, I agree that the greatest sorrow (for us as bbm viewers) is probably that Jack will never have the possibility of starting a new cycle of life.

Peace,

Mona

[alph]

I have always felt that Ennis' situation was more tragic. Just like what others said before me, Jack has "paid his dues". But for Ennis, it is just the beginning. After the movie ended, I felt that Ennis had regrets in him, and it brings me sadness beyond compare. I don't know how I will be able to live in that condition...So that's why I think Ennis' situation was more tragic  :\'(  :\'(  :\'(

[tpe]

Ennis's could be considerd more tragic because he lived.

Jack's could be considered more tragic because he died.

Oh, had both lived or died together, it would have been more bearable.

[monicita]

Dearest tpe,

I think I understand what you mean: It might have been more bearable for them and for us. But then, had Ennis died with Jack, would he ever have had the chance to realise he truly loved him? It is even clearer in the short story: What was before his finding the shirts, he himself would never have called love. But what came after was a life that he made a shrine to his love for Jack. I think this shows beautifully that life can always give you something more, even though it may be shot through with almost unbearable pain. Would it really have been better for Ennis to have died without really knowing what love was? Would it be better for anybody? Knowledge can be exquisitely painful, but Ennis has become a more complete human being through the experience of Jack's death and though that will not stop him hurting dreadfully, it is worth not having died, I pray and hope.

[tpe]

True, mona. 

In a sense, this was Ennis's saving grace: the knowledge that he was intensely loved.  No matter what happened to Ennis after that, this knowledge would cling to him.  By this alone, his life was not for nought.

And yet, with this beautiful realization comes the guilt and the horror of realizing that he could no longer make amends and respond to that love.  He had ample opportunity and realized all too late.

Which is the greater horror: to die without knowing love's fulfilment, or to live with the curse of being unable to act on it?   Both are too hard to contemplate.  One is a lonely death; the other, a living hell.

[monicita]

Oh tpe, how hard you are on us, making us face such realities. And I'm not going to shrink from them. You are right: what you describe may turn out a living hell. But then, is the last scene of the movie so unforgiving? Does it really show a living hell in store for Ennis? No redemption possible? I think this might be the reason why the whole wedding announcement was put in (which is not in the short story): to show that Ennis was capable of change, even though it might have been a tiny inkling of change only. He is going to the wedding, he cares about love in relationships. Might that be a way out of the living hell? The acknowledgement that Jack's death is changing his own life, which, incidentally might have been an even greater hell before Jack's death, before he could acknowledge love. And in the short story I also get the feeling of a redemptive strain, his dreams, his Jack-dreamworld, where he keeps going throughout the rest of his life. Not much of a life, I grant you that, but still: to have loved, to have been loved, beyond all measure and to know it, that is something...

mona

[tpe]

Again, you are right, mona.  The last scenes are not totally devoid of hope.  And there is comfort in the knowledge of a deep love -- enough of it to spill out in one's dealings with others.

And true, Ennis did have daughters that love him.  They are his support in case he may be in need of it in the future.

In this sense, the living is perhaps better off than the dead.  With the quick, there is the possibility of healing and redemption.  For the dead, there is no such consolation.

[alph]

You all need to stop saying such sad things, i can't bear it anymore!   

I didn't know that the wedding scene has this much meaning, I can't wait to watch it again later when i get me hand on it.

  but what happen to Francine/Jenny? All they ever talk about is Jr in the movie.

[tpe]

Sorry alph. 

It is sad, but it is so beautiful.

[ragtimecowboy]

Very tough question. Ennis was enduring pure hell on earth after losing Jack, all of which could have been avoided at several points in time had he just let himself dare to be with Jack in a day-to day relationship. so that everyday awarenes for the would be a great sorrow to bear. as far as being greater than Jack's? I think equal. as Jack died knowing he could never give all the love he had inside to Ennis the one he truly loved and the one who needed it the most.

[aimi15]

True, mona. 

In a sense, this was Ennis's saving grace: the knowledge that he was intensely loved.  No matter what happened to Ennis after that, this knowledge would cling to him.  By this alone, his life was not for nought.

And yet, with this beautiful realization comes the guilt and the horror of realizing that he could no longer make amends and respond to that love.  He had ample opportunity and realized all too late.

Which is the greater horror: to die without knowing love's fulfilment, or to live with the curse of being unable to act on it?   Both are too hard to contemplate.  One is a lonely death; the other, a living hell.

tpe, this is a truly beautiful set of statements that have brought tears to my eyes. It's a bittersweet thing, on the one hand there being the thought that Ennis has the comfort of Jack's endearing love to take him over the long years ahead, but on the flip side knowing he lost the oppurtunity to live out that love whilst Jack was still alive. Heartbreaking. I wonder if Ennis would make trips back up the mountain during those lonely years to remember what they shared, or would it be too painful? 

[greenfrog]

I think they are both equally painful, but when I think of Jack, I think of this.



 :\'(  :\'(  :\'(

[tpe]

Very tough question. Ennis was enduring pure hell on earth after losing Jack, all of which could have been avoided at several points in time had he just let himself dare to be with Jack in a day-to day relationship. so that everyday awarenes for the would be a great sorrow to bear. as far as being greater than Jack's? I think equal. as Jack died knowing he could never give all the love he had inside to Ennis the one he truly loved and the one who needed it the most.

It can be so tough to way one against the other.  I would not like to face either fate.

[tpe]

tpe, this is a truly beautiful set of statements that have brought tears to my eyes. It's a bittersweet thing, on the one hand there being the thought that Ennis has the comfort of Jack's endearing love to take him over the long years ahead, but on the flip side knowing he lost the oppurtunity to live out that love whilst Jack was still alive. Heartbreaking. I wonder if Ennis would make trips back up the mountain during those lonely years to remember what they shared, or would it be too painful? 

Thank you, bella muerte.

I sometimes try to soften the blow of Jack's fate by thinking that Jack must have known that Ennis loved him.  How could he not have known?  But this is counterbalanaced by the realization that even if he knew that he was loved, he went to the grave perhaps not knowing how much he was loved.  When hope falters as in the case of Jack, even the knowledge of love revealed is bittersweet.  One has to have hope in order to sustain a dream of love. 

IMO, both of them would never go back to Brokeback Mountain.  It is the Lost Ideal.  It is the Dream of Love.

[alph]

I wonder if Ennis would make trips back up the mountain during those lonely years to remember what they shared, or would it be too painful? 

IMO, both of them would never go back to Brokeback Mountain.  It is the Lost Ideal.  It is the Dream of Love.

I think that Ennis may not go back to Brokeback Mountain anymore, it is  just too painful in my opinion. It is just like what tpe said, it's Paradise Lost. 

[ragtimecowboy]

To me, its 20 years wasted only because of Jack's death.

Ennis was willing to live with what little they had, but in the end wound up having nothing.
Jack wanted more than they had, but was not able to get it.

If the reverse happened, meaning Ennis died rather than Jack, the tragedy is not as great.  Ennis was "content" with the relationship and would have died content.  Jack needed more from the relationship, and with Ennis' death would still have been wanting.

"Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved."

     I have to disagree, I think Jack would have died inside could he never touch, hold, feel, laugh with, cry with Ennis if Ennis was the one who died. Remember that Jack missed him so bad that he could barely stand it when they were apart. Jack had to give the love inside to Ennis, being ubable to, his life would serve have no purpose. I don't think Ennis was content with his relationship, I think he was just "standing
it".

[aimi15]

tpe, this is a truly beautiful set of statements that have brought tears to my eyes. It's a bittersweet thing, on the one hand there being the thought that Ennis has the comfort of Jack's endearing love to take him over the long years ahead, but on the flip side knowing he lost the oppurtunity to live out that love whilst Jack was still alive. Heartbreaking. I wonder if Ennis would make trips back up the mountain during those lonely years to remember what they shared, or would it be too painful? 

Thank you, bella muerte.

I sometimes try to soften the blow of Jack's fate by thinking that Jack must have known that Ennis loved him.  How could he not have known?  But this is counterbalanaced by the realization that even if he knew that he was loved, he went to the grave perhaps not knowing how much he was loved.  When hope falters as in the case of Jack, even the knowledge of love revealed is bittersweet.  One has to have hope in order to sustain a dream of love. 

IMO, both of them would never go back to Brokeback Mountain.  It is the Lost Ideal.  It is the Dream of Love.

Yes, i suppose Ennis had more of a symbol of the love they shared by taking over ownership of the pair of shirts - surely knowing they had meant so much to Jack would mean more to Ennis than having to make a pilgramage back to the mountain. He had the reminder of the mountain on the postcard he bought too...it's too sad.

[tpe]

The shirt seemed heavy until he saw there was another shirt inside it, the sleeves carefully worked down inside Jack’s sleeves. It was his own plaid shirt, lost, he’d thought, long ago in some damn laundry, his dirty shirt, the pocket ripped, buttons missing, stolen by Jack and hidden here inside Jack’s own shirt, the pair like two skins, one inside the other, two in one. He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack, but there was no real scent, only the memory of it, the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands.


Proulx -- Brokeback Mountain

[aimi15]

The shirt seemed heavy until he saw there was another shirt inside it, the sleeves carefully worked down inside Jack’s sleeves. It was his own plaid shirt, lost, he’d thought, long ago in some damn laundry, his dirty shirt, the pocket ripped, buttons missing, stolen by Jack and hidden here inside Jack’s own shirt, the pair like two skins, one inside the other, two in one. He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack, but there was no real scent, only the memory of it, the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands.


Proulx -- Brokeback Mountain

Yes. :\'(

[tpe]

 :\'(

[LuvJackNasty]

the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands.  :\'( God that whole passage gets me everytime.