Topic: Which is the Greater Sorrow?

[tpe]

It probably wouldn't be as sad if Ennis didn't find the two shirts.  It's the realization of the depth of Jack's love that makes him suffer more, IMO.  He threw away his whole life it seems like.

I think he did feel that his life was over, in a sense.  But yes, the recovery of the shirts ironically made it worse...  But he must have thought that it was a blessing that he discovered and got to keep the shirts.

[JT]

What we feel is worst for him I think is different from what Ennis himself felt.  I think you're right in that for Ennis, those two shirt will no doubt help him throught some tough times, but as a viewer, I think they may induce some powerful regrets at times.  Still, for Ennis, I think the benefit of finding the shirts far outweighs the negative effect they may bring, even if it makes the situation much more sorrowful for the viewers.

[tpe]

What we feel is worst for him I think is different from what Ennis himself felt.  I think you're right in that for Ennis, those two shirt will no doubt help him throught some tough times, but as a viewer, I think they may induce some powerful regrets at times.  Still, for Ennis, I think the benefit of finding the shirts far outweighs the negative effect they may bring, even if it makes the situation much more sorrowful for the viewers.

I am sure Ennis looked at the shirts with a feeling of nostalgia, love, and regret.  It was a complex mix of emotions that mirrored the conflicting dreams he had at the end of the story.

[Bob]

I think before answering that one would have to ask - from who's point of view - if ours than it could go either way depending on maybe your feeling for one or the other - from their point of view - I'd have to say it would be Ennis's sorrow - it lives on until he dies - but I liked what Alexander said and agree, I think Jack knew that Ennis loved him.

[tpe]

I think before answering that one would have to ask - from who's point of view - if ours than it could go either way depending on maybe your feeling for one or the other - from their point of view - I'd have to say it would be Ennis's sorrow - it lives on until he dies - but I liked what Alexander said and agree, I think Jack knew that Ennis loved him.

I do think Jack knew in his heart that Ennis loved him.  But Jack did realize when remembering the Dozy Embrace that that love perhaps did not go further than THAT.    It is such a bittersweet thing: to die never to have known the perfection of love.

[Brokeback Love]

They both were equally involved, so the sorrow was as intense for both of them, I do understand that. But it hurts more to see how Ennis' life got even lonlier, and the regret he had to live with everyday. At least Jack was put out of his suffering in wanting, even if it was by death. :\'( But that's just me..

[tpe]

They both were equally involved, so the sorrow was as intense for both of them, I do understand that. But it hurts more to see how Ennis' life got even lonlier, and the regret he had to live with everyday. At least Jack was put out of his suffering in wanting, even if it was by death. :\'( But that's just me..

But to look at Jack for a moment, it must have been infinitely sad for him to realize at the moment of death that a lifelong dream will remain unfulfilled.

There is a finality to it that he must have confronted in the last few seconds of his life.  If Jack was indeed killed with a tire iron, I think the sadness of his last living moments would have equaled the sadness of many lifetimes combined.

[LuvJackNasty]

 :\'(  :\'( :\'( TPE

[tpe]

:\'(  :\'( :\'( TPE

Either situation is too sad to contemplate.  I go back and forth. 

In the Buddhist sense, Jack would have suffered greatly because he died without setting loose his bonds that tie us to this world.

[BBBOY]

:\'(  :\'( :\'( TPE

What she said.  :\'(

[BBM Fan]

But to look at Jack for a moment, it must have been infinitely sad for him to realize at the moment of death that a lifelong dream will remain unfulfilled.

There is a finality to it that he must have confronted in the last few seconds of his life.  If Jack was indeed killed with a tire iron, I think the sadness of his last living moments would have equaled the sadness of many lifetimes combined.

What hurts me the most about that scene is when that guy slams his foot into Jack's crotch. :\'(

[tpe]

What hurts me the most about that scene is when that guy slams his foot into Jack's crotch. :\'(

To die without dignity is akin to a thousand deaths.

[manhattangirl]

To die on the road.  Isn't that a sort of ironic.  He spent the last twenty years of his life on the road.  Poor Jack F@#in Twist.

[tpe]

To die on the road.  Isn't that a sort of ironic.  He spent the last twenty years of his life on the road.  Poor Jack F@#in Twist.

A very interesting observation.  He did live out his love and sorrows on the road.  In a sense, it was a journey that never really reached its destination.

[LuvJackNasty]

Very interesting observation MG.

Thomas once again  :\'( I heard the song Alway by Bon Jovi the other day and it reminded of your post here on 2/5- especially this line: And I know when I die, you'll be on my mind And I'll love you - Always   :\'(

[tpe]

Very interesting observation MG.

Thomas once again  :\'( I heard the song Alway by Bon Jovi the other day and it reminded of your post here on 2/5- especially this line: And I know when I die, you'll be on my mind And I'll love you - Always   :\'(

 :\'(

I think it IS so hard to die the way Jack did (if he did indeed die this way).  It's not really the manner of the presumed death, but more because he died with a void in his heart.

[tpe]

The more I come to understand Jack, the more saddness I tend to feel for him. His entire life consisted of one rejection after another.His father,his father-in-law,his wife.Men in his community,his rodeo peers,school falculty. Then ultimately. Sadly. The object of his affection.....Ennis.

Some say he got what he deserved from his wife. Fact is,she was slowly losing respect for him because the men in the communty were dissing Jack in her presense.

What bothers me the most is when I understand how much Jack surrendered of himself. I am amazed there was anything remaining in him to keep on going. He completely emptied himself of all self-respect and dignity for want of love.

The scene by the lake ,smoking weed and drinking Old Rose with Ennis.........Utterly crushed me.

Here he was in the very presense of his soulmate.An individual who supposingly loved him more then anyone else in the world.His desires just within his grasp, yet ,in reality, it couldn't possibly have been more distant. BECAUSE HE FELT HE HAD TO DENY WHO HE WAS....... to the one person in the entire world who knew him well.Yearned to be with him.Made sacrifices for him.So by all logical reasoning should have accepted him......... Unconditionally.

What a huge contradiction !!!

His tortured heart had to be stressed to the limit. Strangling at the seams as if in the grip of a slowly tightented garrote . Insisting emphatically,deperately,he make an attempt to reach out to Ennis,  Cry out his love AND pain for attempting to bear a load which must have been an agonizing burden. RELIEF RELIEF RELIEF !!!

Still......He listened without protesting.

Suffered silently as Ennis spoke of putting the blocks to another woman. Then,the clincher. The mask of denial. The very mask which Ennis bore manifested itself upon Jack's face. He became to Ennis what he surmised Ennis wished him to be. Said he had a "thing going with the wife of a rancher"

Thus,Jack became an aberration to himself.

His heart wouldn't speak of its torment though because his love for Ennis was more compelling. There must have been one last glimmer of hope remaining.So,breaking through the resistance of a finger in the dike, it managed a small leak "Sometimes I miss you so much I can't stand it"

Next day however,due to the pressure from years of bottled up anguish.The dam burst.The torrent of emotion spilled out.Washed over Ennis like a tsunami and brought him crumbling to his knees.Leaving two struggling, emotionally exhausted souls, clinging to each other for support.

Very beautiful post, HiAltShag.  Very beautiful and sad.  I felt the same as you did: I was moved by his abject surrender to Ennis.  And we can only share his anguish when the dam finally breaks.  Your metaphor of the Tsunami is very apt.  It engulfs Ennis, but at the same time, it wastes itself away.  Most especially at that point when he was breaking, he was suffering all the more.  His anger directed at Ennis also hurt him -- we should not forget that.

[LuvJackNasty]

Beautiful post Hialtshag  :\'(

[manhattangirl]

The more I come to understand Jack, the more saddness I tend to feel for him. His entire life consisted of one rejection after another.His father,his father-in-law,his wife.Men in his community,his rodeo peers,school falculty. Then ultimately. Sadly. The object of his affection.....Ennis.

Some say he got what he deserved from his wife. Fact is,she was slowly losing respect for him because the men in the communty were dissing Jack in her presense.

What bothers me the most is when I understand how much Jack surrendered of himself. I am amazed there was anything remaining in him to keep on going. He completely emptied himself of all self-respect and dignity for want of love.

The scene by the lake ,smoking weed and drinking Old Rose with Ennis.........Utterly crushed me.

Here he was in the very presense of his soulmate.An individual who supposingly loved him more then anyone else in the world.His desires just within his grasp, yet ,in reality, it couldn't possibly have been more distant. BECAUSE HE FELT HE HAD TO DENY WHO HE WAS....... to the one person in the entire world who knew him well.Yearned to be with him.Made sacrifices for him.So by all logical reasoning should have accepted him......... Unconditionally.

What a huge contradiction !!!

His tortured heart had to be stressed to the limit. Strangling at the seams as if in the grip of a slowly tightented garrote . Insisting emphatically,deperately,he make an attempt to reach out to Ennis,  Cry out his love AND pain for attempting to bear a load which must have been an agonizing burden. RELIEF RELIEF RELIEF !!!

Still......He listened without protesting.

Suffered silently as Ennis spoke of putting the blocks to another woman. Then,the clincher. The mask of denial. The very mask which Ennis bore manifested itself upon Jack's face. He became to Ennis what he surmised Ennis wished him to be. Said he had a "thing going with the wife of a rancher"

Thus,Jack became an aberration to himself.

His heart wouldn't speak of its torment though because his love for Ennis was more compelling. There must have been one last glimmer of hope remaining.So,breaking through the resistance of a finger in the dike, it managed a small leak "Sometimes I miss you so much I can't stand it"

Next day however,due to the pressure from years of bottled up anguish.The dam burst.The torrent of emotion spilled out.Washed over Ennis like a crushing tsunami. Sent him crumbling to his knees.Leaving two struggling, emotionally exhausted souls, clinging to each other for support.

The most beautiful thing I've read about Jack.   Jack is my hero.  He suffered the world that Ennis try to hide from, he suffered at the hands of Ennis's constant hunger for him, and the rejection that comes after, and yet the love still flowed from him to Ennis.   To me Jack was love.  

Thank you HiAltShag

[BBM Fan]

The more I come to understand Jack, the more saddness I tend to feel for him. His entire life consisted of one rejection after another.His father,his father-in-law,his wife.Men in his community,his rodeo peers,school falculty. Then ultimately. Sadly. The object of his affection.....Ennis.

Some say he got what he deserved from his wife. Fact is,she was slowly losing respect for him because the men in the communty were dissing Jack in her presense.

What bothers me the most is when I understand how much Jack surrendered of himself. I am amazed there was anything remaining in him to keep on going. He completely emptied himself of all self-respect and dignity for want of love.

The scene by the lake ,smoking weed and drinking Old Rose with Ennis.........Utterly crushed me.

Here he was in the very presense of his soulmate.An individual who supposingly loved him more then anyone else in the world.His desires just within his grasp, yet ,in reality, it couldn't possibly have been more distant. BECAUSE HE FELT HE HAD TO DENY WHO HE WAS....... to the one person in the entire world who knew him well.Yearned to be with him.Made sacrifices for him.So by all logical reasoning should have accepted him......... Unconditionally.

What a huge contradiction !!!

His tortured heart had to be stressed to the limit. Strangling at the seams as if in the grip of a slowly tightented garrote . Insisting emphatically,deperately,he make an attempt to reach out to Ennis,  Cry out his love AND pain for attempting to bear a load which must have been an agonizing burden. RELIEF RELIEF RELIEF !!!

Still......He listened without protesting.

Suffered silently as Ennis spoke of putting the blocks to another woman. Then,the clincher. The mask of denial. The very mask which Ennis bore manifested itself upon Jack's face. He became to Ennis what he surmised Ennis wished him to be. Said he had a "thing going with the wife of a rancher"

Thus,Jack became an aberration to himself.

His heart wouldn't speak of its torment though because his love for Ennis was more compelling. There must have been one last glimmer of hope remaining.So,breaking through the resistance of a finger in the dike, it managed a small leak "Sometimes I miss you so much I can't stand it"

Next day however,due to the pressure from years of bottled up anguish.The dam burst.The torrent of emotion spilled out.Washed over Ennis like a crushing tsunami. Sent him crumbling to his knees.Leaving two struggling, emotionally exhausted souls, clinging to each other for support.

Very beautifully said, HiAlt.  Such a heart-wrenching life!   :\'( :\'(

[LuvJackNasty]

Well said again Hialtshag.  I completely agree about relating to Jack- I'm a Jack with a bit of Ennis in me.

We carry within ourselves the essential characteristics of both characters. So when we cry for Jack and Ennis......We also cry for ourselves. beautifully stated.

[tpe]

Ennis and Jack are our Yin and Yang alter ego's.

We carry within ourselves the essential characteristics of both characters. So when we cry for Jack and Ennis......We also cry for ourselves.

This is so true.  We feel their distinct tug and pull inside each and every one of us...

[LuvJackNasty]

Actually I'm not a sir but a Ms. Nasty    We have the benefit of being outsiders looking in on their relationship and seeing what could be different for them. We relate to one or both because we are projecting our own experiences into their relationship. They both carried an emptiness inside of them.

[tpe]

We have the benefit of being outsiders looking in on their relationship and seeing what could be different for them. We relate to one or both because we are projecting our own experiences into their relationship. They both carried an emptiness inside of them.

And yet they are ready receptacles by which we have come to recognize better our own individual experiences.  That is why their sorrows speak strongly to each of us.  Even our choice of which sorrow is the greater mirrors our own sorrows and how we have come to live by/with them.

[lamusica]

I think we all agree that both men had their share of sorrows.  Which, do you think, handled his sorrow better?  Personally, I think it was Jack.  He seemed to be much more resiilient.  He could pick himself up and get on with things.  When Ennis wouldn't go off with him ( after the divorce scene), Jack drove on to Mexico, saddened, of course, but determined.  When he went back to Aguirre the next summer to see if Ennis had come for work, he left and continued rodeoing.  I'm not saying he was happy, but he got on with life.  Ennis, on the other hand, seemed to just do the minimum to keep himself and his family alive.  He met his obligations, but joy?  I don't think there was any real joy in his life, and certainly no ambition or goals.  I see Jack as a much stronger person in the long run, although Ennis comes off as the stronger in the early days.

[tpe]

I think we all agree that both men had their share of sorrows.  Which, do you think, handled his sorrow better?  Personally, I think it was Jack.  He seemed to be much more resiilient.  He could pick himself up and get on with things.  When Ennis wouldn't go off with him ( after the divorce scene), Jack drove on to Mexico, saddened, of course, but determined.  When he went back to Aguirre the next summer to see if Ennis had come for work, he left and continued rodeoing.  I'm not saying he was happy, but he got on with life.  Ennis, on the other hand, seemed to just do the minimum to keep himself and his family alive.  He met his obligations, but joy?  I don't think there was any real joy in his life, and certainly no ambition or goals.  I see Jack as a much stronger person in the long run, although Ennis comes off as the stronger in the early days.

I certainly think Jack was more deliberate and decisive in handling his sorrows.  But most of all, he understood how things stood in the greater scheme of things. 

The most beautiful example of this is perhaps the part of the short story dealing with the Dozy embrace.  In that remembrance, there was no hate, and there were certainly no regrets.  Only an abiding sadness and an acceptance of things as they were.  Such was the way he handled his love for Ennis and the associated suffering this entailed.   I think the reason for this was that he accepted Ennis as who he is -- in a way that Ennis never really matched while Jack was alive.

[manhattangirl]

I think we all agree that both men had their share of sorrows.  Which, do you think, handled his sorrow better?  Personally, I think it was Jack.  He seemed to be much more resiilient.  He could pick himself up and get on with things.  When Ennis wouldn't go off with him ( after the divorce scene), Jack drove on to Mexico, saddened, of course, but determined.  When he went back to Aguirre the next summer to see if Ennis had come for work, he left and continued rodeoing.  I'm not saying he was happy, but he got on with life.  Ennis, on the other hand, seemed to just do the minimum to keep himself and his family alive.  He met his obligations, but joy?  I don't think there was any real joy in his life, and certainly no ambition or goals.  I see Jack as a much stronger person in the long run, although Ennis comes off as the stronger in the early days.

Beautiful!

Jack knew instinctively what was eating at Ennis.  And if you remember the last line in ss, of the "dozy embrace", "Let be, Let be",
it reminded me of the Beatles song, "Let it Be". 

[LuvJackNasty]

I certainly think Jack was more deliberate and decisive in handling his sorrows.  But most of all, he understood how things stood in the greater scheme of things. 

The most beautiful example of this is perhaps the part of the short story dealing with the Dozy embrace.  In that remembrance, there was no hate, and there were certainly no regrets.  Only an abiding sadness and an acceptance of things as they were.   Such was the way he handled his love for Ennis and the associated suffering this entailed.   I think the reason for this was that he accepted Ennis as who he is -- in a way that Ennis never really matched while Jack was alive.

Oh God here I go again  :\'(

[FlwrChild]

The most beautiful thing I've read about Jack.   Jack is my hero.  He suffered the world that Ennis try to hide from, he suffered at the hands of Ennis's constant hunger for him, and the rejection that comes after, and yet the love still flowed from him to Ennis.   To me Jack was love.  

Thank you HiAltShag

OMG. Yeah, what she said. Those were beautiful posts. And I'm a Jack girl through and through so you've got me  :\'(


Next day however,due to the pressure from years of bottled up anguish.The dam burst.The torrent of emotion spilled out.Washed over Ennis like a crushing tsunami. Sent him crumbling to his knees.Leaving two struggling, emotionally exhausted souls, clinging to each other for support.

This was heartbreakingly beautiful, as was the entire post. And so spot on. Also:

We carry within ourselves the essential characteristics of both characters. So when we cry for Jack and Ennis......We also cry for ourselves.

Yep.

And manhattangirl, I agree: Jack is love.

I think during the years they were together, Jack suffered more because he was so aware of and in tuned to his feelings. Ennis buried feelings and denied himself a lot so he wasn't forced to feel it the same way. Until Jack died. And I feel for him because he denied that love for all those years while it was right there available to him. And didn't understand it until it was gone. And then he had to live with not only that loss but the knowledge that he had given the chance away all along.

[manhattangirl]

Thanks FlwrChild:

In the ss and the film, Jack was the one that hit Ennis with a dose of reality, like in the final confrontation.  Isn't it "queer"  that Jack was the only one that could make Ennis emotionally and physically react.     When he wasn't with Jack, what a sad and lonely existance he lived.   Just my thoughts.