Topic: Which is the Greater Sorrow?

[tpe]

The one thing which strikes me the most awe-inspiring is when someone has the capability to love another enough to step aside and let go.Even when your heart may be breaking and every fiber of your emotional being is putting up a desparate struggle against your more reliable inner guidance systems capacity, to shift through past experiance and tell you exactly what is best.

The greater the love, the greater the hardship in letting go.  The greater the struggle, the greater the sorrow; and yet -- ironically -- the love goes deeper.

[vedrana]

Jack had suffered all his life cos a lots of reasons, but Ennis, not wanting the "sweet life" with him was his biggest sorrow. Ennis also wasn't a fortune child, since he lost his parents, but realising how deep Jack's love was, how strong his wish for a "sweet life" was, and having no opportunity to give his love back to Jack was his biggest sorrow.

IMO both Jack and Ennis suffered, but above the sorrow, Ennis also knew that HE was the main culprit for their lost chances and who had denied himself and Jack a real happiness and a "sweet life". This cognition was an additional burden for Ennis, so I believe that in the end he suffered more than Jack. Moreover, Jack always had a little bit of hope in him. Ennis had no opportunity for hope -Jack was already dead! :\'(

[atalley]

I was looking for HiAltShag's original post, but cannot find it.  I think he/she said everything perfectly.  Would love to hear more of your insights on all of BBM.

I feel that Ennis had the greater sorrow; to know of Jack's perfect love, but to know that it's too late. 

[chameau]

I agree, the closet scene shows it all, Ennis realizing of Jack's love and admitting he loved Jack but it's too late.

[myprivatejack]

I think that both of them suffered a great sorrow during half their lives,but with some little differences:Jack suffered for not getting his dreams,the suffering for the not obtention.Ennis suffered for not being able to do these Jack's dreams as his also,the suffering for the not liberation.And of course,speaking in terms of time's passing,Ennis remained at the end with the greatest sorrow of all; the sorrow of what it could have been and that he had avoided to obtain,to really "be".

[vedrana]

I think that both of them suffered a great sorrow during half their lives,but with some little differences:Jack suffered for not getting his dreams,the suffering for the not obtention.Ennis suffered for not being able to do these Jack's dreams as his also,the suffering for the not liberation.And of course,speaking in terms of time's passing,Ennis remained at the end with the greatest sorrow of all; the sorrow of what it could have been and that he had avoided to obtain,to really "be".

You're right here. Ennis suffered together with Jack, both for the same reason - their love, and both for not being able to have a sweet life. But Ennis continued to suffer and his pain was deepened for the definite loss of their dreams, for which he almost certainly felt guilty. 

When he holds empty scentless shirts I always see Jack in them , so sprightly, so fresh, provocative, the last day on Brokeback. And I deeply feel for both of them. One young man who died so sensessly and the other who lost the only person he was in love with. :\'(

[tpe]

It's really hard to quantitatively measure one sorrow against another.

To die or to live in sorrow -- one can't be sure which one is harder.  At least in death, you have some peace.  But at least in life, you have some hope.

[vedrana]

It's really hard to quantitatively measure one sorrow against another.

To die or to live in sorrow -- one can't be sure which one is harder.  At least in death, you have some peace.  But at least in life, you have some hope.

There's a reasoning in your POV, but speaking of their relationship, Ennis has no hope left - Jack died! That is hopeless. If we want to give Ennis another chance for love, then it would be like you say.

... I don't know. It is just that his loss is much bigger than any hope and new relationship could bring to him. Even I adore Jack, but I think Ennis is the one who will pay a higer price in the terms of suffering.

[tpe]

There's a reasoning in your POV, but speaking of their relationship, Ennis has no hope left - Jack died! That is hopeless. If we want to give Ennis another chance for love, then it would be like you say.

... I don't know. It is just that his loss is much bigger than any hope and new relationship could bring to him. Even I adore Jack, but I think Ennis is the one who will pay a higer price in the terms of suffering.

But he had the hope given by love.  His love for Jack lives in his renewed love for his daughter.  That is more than enough reason to live.

[vedrana]

But he had the hope given by love.  His love for Jack lives in his renewed love for his daughter.  That is more than enough reason to live.

This is one point where I differ from many other Brokies. I just don't see it. Ennis' girls were there before and he took care of them in his own way. Maybe he's gonna be a better father now, or spend more time with Mrs. twist, or recognize his love for Jack and treasure it... he can do ALL of this things, but the main reason, main feeling, the man who was his spritus movens, his love, his reason for living, man who changed him and who could make him crazy and horny(sorry) and everything - IS GONE FOREVER! I see no hope, even I have to admit that Ennis is coping very well -cos he can't change it, so he'd stand it. But I only see the enormous lost... OMG, PBS is attacking. I am  :\'( :\'( :\'(... sorry!

[tpe]

This is one point where I differ from many other Brokies. I just don't see it. Ennis' girls were there before and he took care of them in his own way. Maybe he's gonna be a better father now, or spend more time with Mrs. twist, or recognize his love for Jack and treasure it... he can do ALL of this things, but the main reason, main feeling, the man who was his spritus movens, his love, his reason for living, man who changed him and who could make him crazy and horny(sorry) and everything - IS GONE FOREVER! I see no hope, even I have to admit that Ennis is coping very well -cos he can't change it, so he'd stand it. But I only see the enormous lost... OMG, PBS is attacking. I am  :\'( :\'( :\'(... sorry!

But he never gave them the true love they deserved.  He always found work a convenient excuse to live apart from them.  The fact that he was willing to give up his work to attend Alma Jr.'s wedding signals a significant shift that was only possible because of Jack's love.  I think that that in itself is a certain sign of hope.

[vedrana]

But he never gave them the true love they deserved.  He always found work a convenient excuse to live apart from them.  The fact that he was willing to give up his work to attend Alma Jr.'s wedding signals a significant shift that was only possible because of Jack's love.  I think that that in itself is a certain sign of hope.

I am not saying that you're wrong tpe! It is just me!It is just this story which found the way to each one's most sensible place!

In fact when you say it in this way, I can see it too - even without Jack, Ennis has a reason to live- and to live much better then before. But in my mind there's always a mixture of SS and the movie. And SS didn't give us any hope. In fact he was forced to live with his daughter cos he lost his job and had no place to stay. Poor Ennis and my dear Jack!  :\'(

[myprivatejack]

It's really hard to quantitatively measure one sorrow against another.

To die or to live in sorrow -- one can't be sure which one is harder.  At least in death, you have some peace.  But at least in life, you have some hope.

But he had the hope given by love.  His love for Jack lives in his renewed love for his daughter.  That is more than enough reason to live.

I agree and I disagree at the same time...Yes,it's true,Ennis "learned" somehow what is love by means of the memory of his love for Jack and this was re born in his love for Jr.But having to live with the unbearable sorrow of not having anymore the root,reason and cause of this love,it's a too hard burden to stand during all a life.

[vedrana]

I agree and I disagree at the same time...Yes,it's true,Ennis "learned" somehow what is love by means of the memory of his love for Jack and this was re born in his love for Jr.But having to live with the unbearable sorrow of not having anymore the root,reason and cause of this love,it's a too hard burden to stand during all a life.

This is my point exactly!  :\'(

[atalley]

I like to think that because he came to realize the great love that Jack had for him; that he found a reason to live each day in honor of Jack.  I do believe that he went back to BBM & LF, although I hate that he didn't get to take any of Jack's ashes to BB.

[myprivatejack]

I like to think that because he came to realize the great love that Jack had for him; that he found a reason to live each day in honor of Jack.  I do believe that he went back to BBM & LF, although I hate that he didn't get to take any of Jack's ashes to BB.

Thank you,Anita; I love your point here ¡  Living feeling this love in him and also living by learning of past mistakes-for example,being closer to his daughter from that moment onwards-is a beautiful way of honor Jack.Even if the sorrow's burden kept being inside him the rest of his life... :\'(

[tpe]

I am not saying that you're wrong tpe! It is just me!It is just this story which found the way to each one's most sensible place!

In fact when you say it in this way, I can see it too - even without Jack, Ennis has a reason to live- and to live much better then before. But in my mind there's always a mixture of SS and the movie. And SS didn't give us any hope. In fact he was forced to live with his daughter cos he lost his job and had no place to stay. Poor Ennis and my dear Jack!  :\'(

Yes, I admit that the ss is darker in this regard. 

But looking at it in the light of the movie, there is certainly an edge of hope in the end -- a possibility of living a life more perfectly, because one no longer fears to love.

[tpe]

I agree and I disagree at the same time...Yes,it's true,Ennis "learned" somehow what is love by means of the memory of his love for Jack and this was re born in his love for Jr.But having to live with the unbearable sorrow of not having anymore the root,reason and cause of this love,it's a too hard burden to stand during all a life.

But this is exactly my point: because of that sorrow, he has finally learned to love and not be afraid to show it.  For just that, all the sorrow in the world is worth bearing.

[tpe]

I like to think that because he came to realize the great love that Jack had for him; that he found a reason to live each day in honor of Jack.  I do believe that he went back to BBM & LF, although I hate that he didn't get to take any of Jack's ashes to BB.

And it is more than reason enough...

Had Ennis ended up entirely alone in the end, it would have been pointless.  But he had his daughters, and he and they would benefit from this newfound capacity.

 

[vedrana]

Even if we agree with Ennis' hope in the end, Ennis' sorrow still surpases Jack's IMO. That supposable hope can not heal his sorrow, his yearning for his lover, his immense regret for loosing Jack and for refusing "sweet life" so many times.

I don't mitigate Jack's pain as I feel that character much more than I feel Ennis, but at the end - Ennis was the one who was paying the price. With interest rate too!

[tpe]

Even if we agree with Ennis' hope in the end, Ennis' sorrow still surpases Jack's IMO. That supposable hope can not heal his sorrow, his yearning for his lover, his immense regret for loosing Jack and for refusing "sweet life" so many times.

I don't mitigate Jack's pain as I feel that character much more than I feel Ennis, but at the end - Ennis was the one who was paying the price. With interest rate too!

I guess for me: so long as there is hope, no sorrow is too great to bear.  And since Jack died without really realizing such hope, then his is possibly the greater sorrow -- death made sure that there was to be no reprieve.

Debatable, of course...

[vedrana]

I guess for me: so long as there is hope, no sorrow is too great to bear.  And since Jack died without really realizing such hope, then his is possibly the greater sorrow -- death made sure that there was to be no reprieve.

Debatable, of course...

  OK, this is also one thing where we agree to disagree! 

I love Jack more, but I sympathise with Ennis more. Jack agreed to Ennis' terms of maintaining their relationship. He was sad, he became bitter, he suffered, but he had hope. He died with that hope. (I think that in his dying moment it was Ennis on his mind.)  :\'(

Ennis is alone, knowing that Jack died sad and bitter, and maybe he even suspects that Jack wanted to move on. Ennis is alone, without a job, in the shaky trailer, with nothing but memories and regrets of what could have be if he was brave to make only one step more. And what is his hope? His capability to admit that he had loved and he had been loved, but successfully scr**ed it up?  I don't see it! Cos Ennis' destiny is the saddest part of BBM - wheather it's SS or the movie.

IMO, of course!

[tpe]

OK, this is also one thing where we agree to disagree! 

I love Jack more, but I sympathise with Ennis more. Jack agreed to Ennis' terms of maintaining their relationship. He was sad, he became bitter, he suffered, but he had hope. He died with that hope. (I think that in his dying moment it was Ennis on his mind.)  :\'(

Ennis is alone, knowing that Jack died sad and bitter, and maybe he even suspects that Jack wanted to move on. Ennis is alone, without a job, in the shaky trailer, with nothing but memories and regrets of what could have be if he was brave to make only one step more. And what is his hope? His capability to admit that he had loved and he had been loved, but successfully scr**ed it up?  I don't see it! Cos Ennis' destiny is the saddest part of BBM - wheather it's SS or the movie.

IMO, of course!

That's fine. 

But as far as the sweet life with Ennis was concerned, I think Jack had given up.  In this important aspect, there was no hope prior to his death.

[vedrana]

That's fine. 

But as far as the sweet life with Ennis was concerned, I think Jack had given up.  In this important aspect, there was no hope prior to his death.

Had Jack really given up? I don't know. It is one aspect I am not comfortable with, but it could be possible. Even so, the hope was not dead, cos Ennis was alive.

I somehow believe that as long as someone lives, there's hope. It's only the death which can destroy the last piece of hope. That's what happened when Jack died.

[tpe]

Had Jack really given up? I don't know. It is one aspect I am not comfortable with, but it could be possible. Even so, the hope was not dead, cos Ennis was alive.

I somehow believe that as long as someone lives, there's hope. It's only the death which can destroy the last piece of hope. That's what happened when Jack died.

He had given up hope, but not love.  Again, I base this on the "Let be, let be" quote from AP.  I interpreted this as a sign of moving on when it came to the sweet life.

AS for hope and death, I believe that hope (as with love) goes beyond death.  Incidentally, I also think that this is at the heart of people's ideas of an afterlife -- that faith, hope, and love conquer death.

[vedrana]

He had given up hope, but not love.  Again, I base this on the "Let be, let be" quote from AP.  I interpreted this as a sign of moving on when it came to the sweet life.

AS for hope and death, I believe that hope (as with love) goes beyond death.  Incidentally, I also think that this is at the heart of people's ideas of an afterlife -- that faith, hope, and love conquer death.

Uh! We are really distant here... We just see it from the different angles, (like that phantom photo )!

If nothing else, Ennis would suffer much longer than Jack! 

[myprivatejack]

Both of them suffered for half their life the impossibility of really being themselves;the difference is that Jack found the end of this suffering in death and,somehow,Ennis found it in life,as a kind of penitence.

[vedrana]

Both of them suffered for half their life the impossibility of really being themselves;the difference is that Jack found the end of this suffering in death and,somehow,Ennis found it in life,as a kind of penitence.

Hm... this is not a bad approach to the problem! And who knows? Maybe Jack's soul is still suffering until waiting for Ennis' soul!  :\'(

[myprivatejack]

Yes,indeed they were two suffering souls,until the moment they could meet again; each one of them in a different world... :\'(

[FlwrChild]

Oh my gosh, all of these POV have merit to me. They all capture different angles of the love and loss that both men experienced.


To me, during the time that he lived, Jack had the deeper sorrow. He knew that what he felt was love and as much as he may have known that Ennis loved him, he also saw that Ennis would never take the leap to make a life with him and had to live with the scraps of the sweet life that he was always able to see for them in his mind's eye. Ennis, on the other hand, had built his life on the theory that what couldn't be fixed had to be stood and in keeping with this idea created a wall around himself that allowed him to avoid facing those deeper feelings and acknowledging them. There are pains that you can get so used to you almost don't even feel them anymore. You develop a numb barrier to the pain. Ennis kept his head down for so many years that except for the times he spent with Jack, he never even allowed himself to contemplate any other possibilities.


Once Jack was gone and Ennis' heart was burst open with the discovery of the shirts, his became the greater sorrow. Because Jack is finally at peace, whatever he may have felt in life, and Ennis has to endure without him, knowing at last what their love was all about and knowing that every chance he had to do anything about it has passed. He has learned valuable lessons and is applying them to his relationship with his children, which is in itself a gift, but side by side with the nourishment his heart gets from knowing how deeply he was loved is the regret and loss that can never fully dissipate as long as he is alive.


And that is why I'm somewhere between the people who think he was happy at the end of BBM and the people who think he was miserable. I think that he was damned to walk the line between the two for the rest of his life because the knowledge of the love brings at the same time the happiness and the devastation that he can't help feeling when he thinks about Jack.