Dear Loreen, I won’t come to this thread again, because it makes me feel tremendously sad, but since you quoted my post I have to answer you before leave.
Sorry if my needles metaphor was not ok, but it’s difficult for a not English speaker to express complicate ideas. It was not my intention to compare the pain of a needle with the pain of losing someone, but to show how our POV’s change about Ennis blood test if we are afraid of needles or not. I mean, how you can judge a fact depending on how it affects you, which is not objective at all.
About crying in the funeral, you just confirmed what I was trying to say...You don’t know “my” Aguirre, the person of my example, and still you say that maybe he was acting...How do you know that? Are you him? Only because Aguirre is homophobic it means that he has not feelings and is unable to cry in an funeral for someone he loved? And I was not saying that those silent Junior or Cassie didn’t feel pain, but trying to illustrate how we can not read people and their suffering because of their reactions and behavior.
I can’t believe that people really think that they know who loved the most. Or even whose love spoke the most....Are they Ennis? Are they Jack? NO!! So then, how can they know what was Jack or Ennis feeling inside? They can talk based on their own experiences, but their experiences and POV's are not the same as our boys. Our boys are not us, they are unique individuals, as we all are, so it’s so unfair to try and affirm that someone loved the most when you are not that person. Oh yeah, you can base your opinion on things our boys did....but most of time we don’t act how we are really feeling (the funeral metaphor again..), so someone can say that Jack loved the most because he drove 14 hours when he received the postcard about Ennis divorce, and Ennis sent him away and still he kept seeing Ennis. And Ennis was so hard in that scene...not even offering a glass of water to Jack. BUT then it was Jack who slept with other men and not Ennis who was faithful all his life, so people would say that it was Ennis who loved the most. That’s so wrong. People doesn’t know what Jack and Ennis were feeling inside to act like that. People who hate lovers being unfaithful surely can’t understand Jack and why he needed Mexico and Randall. I hate when people is unfaithful, and still I don’t judge Jack, because I am NOT him, so I don NOT know what kind of hell he went through all those years.
I think you said here what I was trying to explain: “We all speak through our experience and our POV.” Yeah, that’s the key. We speak based on our experiences and POV’s, and that’s why we can NOT say who suffered the most or who loved the most. Our POV’s are not absolute truths, our POV’s are not what Ennis and Jack felt inside, we are NOT Ennis and Jack, and our experiences can be similar but not the same, because I am not a cowboy, living 40 years ago in a rural area of WY, totally in love with a man called Ennis or Jack. So no matter how much my experiences are akin to theirs, it’ll never be the same situation or experience or life or feeling. I’ll never be Jack or Ennis so I can not really know what they were feeling.
Again you said it here:
Still, I expressed my opinion when I said that "if I was in Ennis's shoes", I would feel devastated all my life for not being able for 20 years to open my heart completely and spare myself and my only love the pain. If you were in Ennis shoes. But as I said in my post if you were in Ennis shoes, if you were in that situation you’d still be Loreen, not Ennis, so you can not know what he felt in that moment. You say that YOU’d feel devastated, and that’s the point, babe: YOU’d feel this or that way, but you are not Ennis.
For me, FOR ME only, it’s so unfair for Jack and his 20 years of suffering to say that Ennis suffered the most. And, of course, vice versa.
How can we meassure the hurt? Jack’s suffering was about so much more than a broken dream. Only he knew the depth of his pain.
You say that Jack died but now is in peace waiting for Ennis...How do you know that? Again it’s only based on your experiences and beliefs, because you’re a Catholic woman, just like me, but there are lots of brokies here (Keren, Koolkat, etc) who don’t believe in God, so for them Jack wasted his life and now there is not another chance to live with Ennis or to rest in peace....See? If you believe in God, Jack is ok waiting for Ennis so then Ennis suffered the most, but if you don’t believe in God, then Ennis is the only one ok (even if he’s suffering the hell in earth) because he’s still alive. It all changes depending on what we believe in, and that’s not objective, that’s NOT the truth, it’s only our version, what we’d feel in that situation. But never the reality, never what our boys really felt.
Do you know that in another thread people said that Ennis felt, now that Jack was dead, liberated in a way and in peace, because he now knew that Jack loved him but he had not to deal with quitting jobs and lies and the fear? I strongly disagree with that, but it shows how no one can know how much Ennis (or Jack) suffered, how it all depends on our vision of things; the death, for example...And our POV's and opinions are NOT absolute truths, so for me it's unfair with someone says "this man loved or suffered the most". Are we that person to really know what he felt? Not even Ennis knew what they had was love till he found the shirts, so if that person didn't know how he really felt, then how can we know it? That makes not sense.
Damn...sorry for the rambling...I know I have not right to be this hard, and I know that everyone can say what they want here and everywhere. I respect everyone POV, that’s for sure. And sure I won’t bother anyone here again, because I won’t read this thread again. Makes me mad, makes me cry.
When I left the theater all those times I saw BBM in 2006 I never thought not even for a moment that one of our boys suffered or loved more than the other one. I’m a Jack’s girl, and still I’ve always said that Ennis loved and suffered as much as him. For me they both suffered with the same intensity and loved with the same strength. It’s only that their pain was different, just like it was their way of expressing love. I asked in my previous post who suffered the most: The kid who is being tortured or his mother who is forced to see it? For me they both suffered way too much to be able to stand it, but they pain were absolutely different, just like Ennis and Jack’s pain, just different and unique.
I think that if our boys could speak they'd ask us who we think we are to judge their pain and suffering....I almost can hear Ennis saying that we have not right to do that. It's so Ennis. Like he said to Alma..."you don't know nothing about it". :\'( :\'( :\'(
Annie P, said that Jack dying and Ennis living alone was the only way BBM could end, Ennis’d never say yes to the sweet life and Jack’d never leave Ennis....so the only way they both could find an exit, the only way the story could end was with Jack dead and Ennis living his life with dreams of Jack. Maybe Annie thought that it was the best for our boys, so they’d stop hurting. So maybe there is not greatest sorrow there, just the only way things could end. I don’t know. I feel so sad now.... :\'( :\'( :\'(
