Author Topic: Which is the Greater Sorrow?  (Read 118682 times)

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #180 on: Mar 27, 2009, 03:26 PM »

And maybe there's a huge open space between my opinion and the reality that existed in those 20 years of most beautiful love. I don't know, but I'm ready to explore it. :c)



That's beautifully said. ^f^


I agree completely. This is what we are here for, after all. And I admit that there are some threads and discussions that I don't visit because it is just too hard for me to address some of the aspects of their journey or some of the opinions expressed about it where I prefer to hold onto my own. This is why I'm so glad that we have the variety of threads we have. There is truly something for everyone and room to roam through the threads that speak the most to each of us.  :ghug:
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

vedrana

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #181 on: Mar 27, 2009, 03:53 PM »
Thanks Tammy and loreen.  Thanks everyone.

In a way, we each approach this qustion in the light of how we view death and redemption.  Can there be redemption after death?  Can a life of redemption be a life of pain?

I think that Jack was doing things he really believed in all his life. He had many sins, he suffered coz/for those sins, but he was an honest, open person who lived with all his heart, who treated others in his best way, who, regardless of his sins was a really good man. I think that he's gone in peace. Redemption is possible, but not so long... And I don't think that he was a saint, I just see him as a person who had no doubts about his deeds and who avoid hurting others... or I am subjective again when it comes to Jack Twist? Don't know! :s)

Ennis's life in the trailer was a kind of redemption for not being brave to live full life with the only one he loved. Now he's doomed to live the full life bravely, but without Jack. That kind of life is like the food without salt - no taste!

I agree here with MPJ - he lived a poor substitute for life.

vedrana

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #182 on: Mar 27, 2009, 04:00 PM »

That's beautifully said. ^f^


I agree completely. This is what we are here for, after all. And I admit that there are some threads and discussions that I don't visit because it is just too hard for me to address some of the aspects of their journey or some of the opinions expressed about it where I prefer to hold onto my own. This is why I'm so glad that we have the variety of threads we have. There is truly something for everyone and room to roam through the threads that speak the most to each of us.  :ghug:

Thanks FC! ^f^

I understand you, coz after posting twice today in this thread, I am also on the edge of crying... OK, over the edge now :\'( ...This all talking about their pain shook me hard. And I also avoid some threads, for the same reason as you do - coz I don't see my stand in them.

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #183 on: Mar 28, 2009, 08:42 AM »
Andrew,your posts are always wisely written,and in this sense,your theory of the glass half full or half empty illustrates very well this.We can declare that Ennis could be something very similar to be "happy" because he has managed to live with his memories of the past and with some new ways of being learned from these past experiences.Even we could say that he has found a new mother,somebody who cares for him,in Jack's Ma figure and that he has learn to be closer to his daughters.They say that no past's experiences can be really useful if we aren't able to learn from them in our present times.And Ennis did,paying a great and painful bill for learn,but he did...
Nevertheless,the basis of all this,of this possibility of changing his life and begin from zero-as we say here-,comes from a tragic and irremediable situation;the death of the person he has loved the most in his life.Can we really replace the possible reality of having been happy,of having been HIMSELF,for the fact of having two shirts as an indelible souvenir of this now impossible reality?Can we really replace all the moments they had could live together and that he mainly denied,for the fact of being closer to his daughters,as a substitutive for this person?Can we really replace all the beautiful souvenirs he has now,of these lived moments,of what has been,for the bitter reality of remembering what could have been and never was,and never will be?.Maybe I see the bottle half empty,but it's a poor remains,IMO.


Alicia, you are too kind to me. I am far from wise.

As I said, whatever Ennis had, no matter what joy he found with the two shirts, it was only half of something when missing Jack.

I did not say Ennis had great joy. In fact, I feel his sorrow all the more, for the joy that he lost.

I felt an immediate connection with the quote from Kahlil Gibran when I heard it, and it applies here as well.

"The deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain."

I said the sorrows of Ennis and Jack are not comparable because they are apples and oranges. They are fundamentally different in their nature.

Ennis' joy is found in knowing he was loved, deeply and for so long, all this time, while he was always yearning for love without knowing it, in that stoic independent cowboy spirit. The joy and the sorrow are mixed together in that supreme moment when he discovered the shirts. They are inseparable. It was the genius of Heath to convey so much emotion, so much abstract understanding of the human spirit in that one moment reaching out to the sleeve of the shirt as he discovered the two shirts with his own blood stain still on them.

Jack's joy is found in the love they shared when they were together, but his sorrow is never having enough.

Ennis' love lost was compensated with love found, though in the opposite order to bring happiness.

Jack's love denied was compensated with the hope of perhaps, one day. This was shattered each time they parted, and especially after the last confrontation, and he watched Ennis driving off.

Ennis' sorrow and Jack's sorrow are like two needles in different orientation. One lasts a lifetime with a numbing pain under the skin, while the other is a deep stabbing pain that stuck momentary but leaves lasting scars. Once Jack died, the stabbing pain may have gone away, but it lived on in Ennis' guilt and regret.

As I said, we can look at the life of Ennis as half full or half empty at any moment. The sorrow is found when focusing on the emptiness; the joy is found when focusing on the fullness of what was, what is, and what will be. And no matter how we look at it, it was a half life, missing Jack.

Half empty or half full, it is love denied all because of bigotry and fear.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #184 on: Mar 28, 2009, 08:56 AM »
I think that Jack was doing things he really believed in all his life. He had many sins, he suffered coz/for those sins, but he was an honest, open person who lived with all his heart, who treated others in his best way, who, regardless of his sins was a really good man. I think that he's gone in peace. Redemption is possible, but not so long... And I don't think that he was a saint, I just see him as a person who had no doubts about his deeds and who avoid hurting others... or I am subjective again when it comes to Jack Twist? Don't know! :s)

Ennis's life in the trailer was a kind of redemption for not being brave to live full life with the only one he loved. Now he's doomed to live the full life bravely, but without Jack. That kind of life is like the food without salt - no taste!

I agree here with MPJ - he lived a poor substitute for life.

I don't see Jack as having done anything that needed redemption. Perhaps the sin you speak of refers to going to Mexico, or being unfaithful to Lureen, but these are both based on his love for Ennis, a force of nature that cannot be denied. And when denied, the irresistible force found outlets in other ways.

The redemption that was spoken, in Tony's thread a year or so ago, that I was referring to, was for Ennis to change the life that he had, living in fear and in denial, to a life that was open and caring. It was still the simple life...when you got nothing you need nothing.

But it is not a matter of a life without taste, but a hand as it was dealt. If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it. At 39, divorced from Alma with alimony and child support, Ennis had his hands full. Losing Jack was the wake up call that made him take better care of what he had left. It was clear as night and day to see the joy in him from the moment he came downstairs holding those two shirts stepping into the kitchen. It was like watching a man who was just rescued from the depth of drowning in sorrow, a man who just found a new purpose in life.

As I said, I see the ending of the movie very differently, as the discussion that someone else (Branch?) raised earlier indicated. The prologue in the shortstory is not the ending of Brokeback Mountain for me. It's Heath's masterful perfect scene in the movie, living in Jack's dream, and not living in it, holding on to what was, while holding on in real life.

Kinda like what we do here. And we come and go for as long as we need it, as long as we can stand it.

There ain't no reins on this one.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

vedrana

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #185 on: Mar 28, 2009, 09:16 AM »
Alicia, you are too kind to me. I am far from wise.
As I said, whatever Ennis had, no matter what joy he found with the two shirts, it was only half of something when missing Jack.
I did not say Ennis had great joy. In fact, I feel his sorrow all the more, for the joy that he lost.
I felt an immediate connection with the quote from Kahlil Gibran when I heard it, and it applies here as well.
"The deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain."
I said the sorrows of Ennis and Jack are not comparable because they are apples and oranges. They are fundamentally different in their nature.
Ennis' joy is found in knowing he was loved, deeply and for so long, all this time, while he was always yearning for love without knowing it, in that stoic independent cowboy spirit. The joy and the sorrow are mixed together in that supreme moment when he discovered the shirts. They are inseparable. It was the genius of Heath to convey so much emotion, so much abstract understanding of the human spirit in that one moment reaching out to the sleeve of the shirt as he discovered the two shirts with his own blood stain still on them.
Jack's joy is found in the love they shared when they were together, but his sorrow is never having enough.
Ennis' love lost was compensated with love found, though in the opposite order to bring happiness.
Jack's love denied was compensated with the hope of perhaps, one day. This was shattered each time they parted, and especially after the last confrontation, and he watched Ennis driving off.
Ennis' sorrow and Jack's sorrow are like two needles in different orientation. One lasts a lifetime with a numbing pain under the skin, while the other is a deep stabbing pain that stuck momentary but leaves lasting scars. Once Jack died, the stabbing pain may have gone away, but it lived on in Ennis' guilt and regret.
As I said, we can look at the life of Ennis as half full or half empty at any moment. The sorrow is found when focusing on the emptiness; the joy is found when focusing on the fullness of what was, what is, and what will be. And no matter how we look at it, it was a half life, missing Jack.
Half empty or half full, it is love denied all because of bigotry and fear.

Great post, Lance!  :^^)

As we don't quite agree on the end of the movie, I don't accept 100% of it, but enough to like your words as a whole! ^f^

vedrana

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #186 on: Mar 28, 2009, 09:44 AM »
I don't see Jack as having done anything that needed redemption. Perhaps the sin you speak of refers to going to Mexico, or being unfaithful to Lureen, but these are both based on his love for Ennis, a force of nature that cannot be denied. And when denied, the irresistible force found outlets in other ways.
The redemption that was spoken, in Tony's thread a year or so ago, that I was referring to, was for Ennis to change the life that he had, living in fear and in denial, to a life that was open and caring. It was still the simple life...when you got nothing you need nothing.
But it is not a matter of a life without taste, but a hand as it was dealt. If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it. At 39, divorced from Alma with alimony and child support, Ennis had his hands full. Losing Jack was the wake up call that made him take better care of what he had left. It was clear as night and day to see the joy in him from the moment he came downstairs holding those two shirts stepping into the kitchen. It was like watching a man who was just rescued from the depth of drowning in sorrow, a man who just found a new purpose in life.
As I said, I see the ending of the movie very differently, as the discussion that someone else (Branch?) raised earlier indicated. The prologue in the shortstory is not the ending of Brokeback Mountain for me. It's Heath's masterful perfect scene in the movie, living in Jack's dream, and not living in it, holding on to what was, while holding on in real life.
Kinda like what we do here. And we come and go for as long as we need it, as long as we can stand it.
There ain't no reins on this one.

It is a strange thing that I have a completely different ideas on few things, yet I understand your opinion (not only accept it).

Well, about redemption: I was answering to tpe's question-  "Can there be redemption after death?  Can a life of redemption be a life of pain?"

I believe that (and I may be wrong) tpe was referring to Ennis's and Jack's existence after Jack's death. IMO Ennis was going through the redemption through the life without Jack and Jack in the other reality maybe too.... I wouldn't automatically excluded a stage of redemption for Jack('s soul), but not as near long as for Ennis in the trailer...

When Ennis found the shirts... well it is a definite killer for me :\'( :\'( :\'( , and absolutely something for him to hold on to, but still, I see no joy in his eyes. In fact, SS even doesn't express sorrow int the last part - more emptiness and meaningless. In the movie I see a deep sorrow for not be able to retrieve 5 minutes of what he had and let go ....

Yup Lance - as long as he/we can stand it! :c)

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #187 on: Mar 28, 2009, 10:01 AM »
It is a strange thing that I have a completely different ideas on few things, yet I understand your opinion (not only accept it).
Well, about redemption: I was answering to tpe's question-  "Can there be redemption after death?  Can a life of redemption be a life of pain?"
I believe that (and I may be wrong) tpe was referring to Ennis's and Jack's existence after Jack's death. IMO Ennis was going through the redemption through the life without Jack and Jack in the other reality maybe too.... I wouldn't automatically excluded a stage of redemption for Jack('s soul), but not as near long as for Ennis in the trailer...
When Ennis found the shirts... well it is a definite killer for me :\'( :\'( :\'( , and absolutely something for him to hold on to, but still, I see no joy in his eyes. In fact, SS even doesn't express sorrow int the last part - more emptiness and meaningless. In the movie I see a deep sorrow for not be able to retrieve 5 minutes of what he had and let go ....
Yup Lance - as long as he/we can stand it! :c)

Right. I see the misunderstanding. You were not speaking of Jack's sin before his death, but his soul's redemption after he died. I misunderstood you.

As Tammy said, this thread is deeply personal and can brings the great sorrows and tears. I only participate occasionally to release PBS, especially this last month, with Heath's 30th birthday anniversary. These last couple posts brought back the first days after watching Brokeback Mountain, and the first months here, dealing deep into the nuance and meaning of every scene. It's amazing how much power there is in the short moments on the screen.

I think I will be joining Tammy to leave off at this point.  :t) for sharing the joy and the sorrow! I love this place. <^(
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

vedrana

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #188 on: Mar 28, 2009, 10:14 AM »
Right. I see the misunderstanding. You were not speaking of Jack's sin before his death, but his soul's redemption after he died. I misunderstood you.

As Tammy said, this thread is deeply personal and can brings the great sorrows and tears. I only participate occasionally to release PBS, especially this last month, with Heath's 30th birthday anniversary. These last couple posts brought back the first days after watching Brokeback Mountain, and the first months here, dealing deep into the nuance and meaning of every scene. It's amazing how much power there is in the short moments on the screen.

I think I will be joining Tammy to leave off at this point.  :t) for sharing the joy and the sorrow! I love this place. <^(

Well, I guess I see ya around then! ;)

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #189 on: Mar 28, 2009, 11:18 AM »
Well, I guess I see ya around then! ;)

Ya, if the army don't get me.  :c)
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #190 on: Mar 28, 2009, 11:23 AM »
As I said, we can look at the life of Ennis as half full or half empty at any moment. The sorrow is found when focusing on the emptiness; the joy is found when focusing on the fullness of what was, what is, and what will be. And no matter how we look at it, it was a half life, missing Jack.

Half empty or half full, it is love denied all because of bigotry and fear.

I can't add anything else,but feeling admired for the way you express your ideas,really admired... ^f^ Of course,everything depends on where we focus our perceptions;as everything in life has two faces,sometimes even the most painful events.And in Ennis case,at least he had the comfort of knowing that he had been completely,desperately,madly loved...even if he had lost it,he had these souvenirs,more than this:the security that it was real in his life.Even if,as you say,their loved was denied because of bigotry and fear...
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

vedrana

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #191 on: Mar 28, 2009, 12:47 PM »
Ya, if the army don't get me.  :c)

 ;D ;D ;D I didn't expect this, but it sounds  (t) (t) (t)!

 :^^)

Offline traveller

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #192 on: Mar 28, 2009, 09:39 PM »
Thanks Tammy and loreen.  Thanks everyone.

In a way, we each approach this qustion in the light of how we view death and redemption.  Can there be redemption after death?  Can a life of redemption be a life of pain?




You provoke very interesting and motional discussions ^f^

I was trying to answer your question and I realize that I can't. I think the reason is I never thought of Ennis's and Jack's misery as of something being subject to redemption.  Maybe it's the question of my understanding of redemption which for me is always connected with guilt, sin, necessary of repentance, asking for absolution and only then with peace.

If you ask if there is chance for peace after realizing all my failures , my answer would be yes but I would never connect this with redemption only with forgiving myself and willingness to open my heart in spite of terrible pain, what IMO Ennis did.
Your question of redemption (by me understood as  and willingness to continue my journey into the happiness) after death is more difficult because it touches our religion beliefs. I'm the lucky to believe that death is the beginning of another life
so for me the "redemption" after death is not only possible but even inevitable. I wish Jack's "redemption" would be only waiting patiently for Ennis and their eternal sweet life.


The point is, we both should be in this camp.

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #193 on: Mar 28, 2009, 11:24 PM »

You provoke very interesting and motional discussions ^f^

I was trying to answer your question and I realize that I can't. I think the reason is I never thought of Ennis's and Jack's misery as of something being subject to redemption.  Maybe it's the question of my understanding of redemption which for me is always connected with guilt, sin, necessary of repentance, asking for absolution and only then with peace.

If you ask if there is chance for peace after realizing all my failures , my answer would be yes but I would never connect this with redemption only with forgiving myself and willingness to open my heart in spite of terrible pain, what IMO Ennis did.
Your question of redemption (by me understood as  and willingness to continue my journey into the happiness) after death is more difficult because it touches our religion beliefs. I'm the lucky to believe that death is the beginning of another life
so for me the "redemption" after death is not only possible but even inevitable. I wish Jack's "redemption" would be only waiting patiently for Ennis and their eternal sweet life.


 :ghug: traveler  :ghug: you deserve to be happy. You can forgive yourself, which is what Ennis did, knowing that every day they met, Jack forgave him and continued to love him. It was his own fear that kept him from the sweet life, not Jack being sore after that punch, not Jack being sore after he refused the sweet life by the river that night, not Jack being sore after all the times he said no.

The redemption of love for Ennis was to live up to what he could have done, and never let a moment of loving, of opportunity to love slip by without at least trying. That's what Jack did.

 :ghug: traveler  :ghug: What Brokeback Mountain says, is that we all have our chance for happiness and we deserve it. And it's nobody's business but ours.  ^f^
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline traveller

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #194 on: Mar 29, 2009, 07:36 AM »
:ghug: traveler  :ghug: you deserve to be happy. You can forgive yourself, which is what Ennis did, knowing that every day they met, Jack forgave him and continued to love him. It was his own fear that kept him from the sweet life, not Jack being sore after that punch, not Jack being sore after he refused the sweet life by the river that night, not Jack being sore after all the times he said no.

The redemption of love for Ennis was to live up to what he could have done, and never let a moment of loving, of opportunity to love slip by without at least trying. That's what Jack did.

 :ghug: traveler  :ghug: What Brokeback Mountain says, is that we all have our chance for happiness and we deserve it. And it's nobody's business but ours.  ^f^

Your posts are always like the light sparkles - extremely inspiring insights, the more so because they seem to result from your own experiences and your intentional focusing on the brightness. Thank you for being here, Dear Lance.
Reading your post I realized that your theory of "half full, half empty" connects  with (self) forgiving and fear. Half full: Ennis's life after Jack' death would not be the torture if he forgives himself missing the chance to have sweet life with Jack and making him suffer so much. Half empty (maybe even empty at all): living in fear no matter which fears we think about. Ennis's fear that kept him from sweet life with Jack :\'( :\'( like you said.
Wishing all of us always know how to forgive ourselves, I ask all Gods of the world to support us in overcoming our fears.
The point is, we both should be in this camp.

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #195 on: Mar 29, 2009, 07:59 AM »
Your posts are always like the light sparkles - extremely inspiring insights, the more so because they seem to result from your own experiences and your intentional focusing on the brightness. Thank you for being here, Dear Lance.
Reading your post I realized that your theory of "half full, half empty" connects  with (self) forgiving and fear. Half full: Ennis's life after Jack' death would not be the torture if he forgives himself missing the chance to have sweet life with Jack and making him suffer so much. Half empty (maybe even empty at all): living in fear no matter which fears we think about. Ennis's fear that kept him from sweet life with Jack :\'( :\'( like you said.
Wishing all of us always know how to forgive ourselves, I ask all Gods of the world to support us in overcoming our fears.


Thank you for your kind words, traveler. I am inspired by your posts as well because as fellow travelers on this road, your stories resonate at some level with mine. It is why we are here, for Brokeback Mountain, because it is the fire that lit the way. I found a beacon to follow and am merely re-telling the same tale that helped me. Indeed I try my hardest to focus on the light, and follow the path but there are difficult times, and being here makes it easier.  ^f^
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline traveller

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #196 on: Mar 29, 2009, 04:27 PM »
There are difficult times on my path as well. Sometimes I hate all my pain, failures and misfortunes but sometimes I am able to accept them as the stage in my journey. Looking around, thinking of  my relations and people I know, I see that these of them who are able to stand up after being broken or devastated are somehow more human that those who have always had sweet or easy life. This knowledge helps to decrease a little bit my sorrow for Ennis and Jack, at least sometimes. 
I would say they both have the strange power over me. It's like I am somehow connected with them, their love and their pain. Maybe that is why I try so hard to find the light in their story.
Sorry for  *o) if it's the case :)
The point is, we both should be in this camp.

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #197 on: Mar 29, 2009, 05:12 PM »
There are difficult times on my path as well. Sometimes I hate all my pain, failures and misfortunes but sometimes I am able to accept them as the stage in my journey. Looking around, thinking of  my relations and people I know, I see that these of them who are able to stand up after being broken or devastated are somehow more human that those who have always had sweet or easy life. This knowledge helps to decrease a little bit my sorrow for Ennis and Jack, at least sometimes. 
I would say they both have the strange power over me. It's like I am somehow connected with them, their love and their pain. Maybe that is why I try so hard to find the light in their story.
Sorry for  *o) if it's the case :)

Not sure if you have Christian background or not, but here are three of my favorite songs that your statement above reminded me of them:

Michael Card's Known by the Scar


Garth Brooks
The Dance


Standing Outside the Fire


I have a few others of the same theme but can't recall them off the top.
 :ghug: here's to all those who pick themselves up, dust themselves off, and move on again.  :cr)

Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

vedrana

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #198 on: Mar 30, 2009, 06:00 AM »
There are difficult times on my path as well. Sometimes I hate all my pain, failures and misfortunes but sometimes I am able to accept them as the stage in my journey. Looking around, thinking of  my relations and people I know, I see that these of them who are able to stand up after being broken or devastated are somehow more human that those who have always had sweet or easy life. This knowledge helps to decrease a little bit my sorrow for Ennis and Jack, at least sometimes. 
I would say they both have the strange power over me. It's like I am somehow connected with them, their love and their pain. Maybe that is why I try so hard to find the light in their story.
Sorry for  *o) if it's the case :)

This is so true. I guess that we can not recognize and respect something we've never tasted - if someone never knew the pain, than he's immune to the sympathy for others' pain. But that person can also never experience the joy - coz have nothing to compare it with. We know the joy, only because we know the pain, right?

I believe that the pain, both of our boys have tasted during the separation over the years, made their infrequent meetings more joyful and truly happy. So much so that they even didn't want to singe them with the talking about the life they've left behind for a short while.  :(

Offline tpe

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #199 on: Mar 30, 2009, 08:03 AM »
:ghug: Tammy FlwrChild Everyone  :ghug:

It was made clear to me early on that I see the movie's ending differently, and I think it has to do with the personality of Ennis, of me.

I recently found a wonderful documentary of Dick Proenneke's time in Alaska, alone, in a cabin, living with the one thing he loved, nature, the wilderness, the animals he loved. He was happy. He lived there for thirty years until he was 80 years old.

People see Ennis living alone in his trailer and say he is miserable. I see Ennis living with his two shirts, close to his daughters, communicating with the most important woman in Jack's life, and say he is happy.

Is the glass half full, or half empty?

It is certain half of something. Because Jack isn't there.

There's no reins on this one. And I love this place just the same.
  :c)  ^f^



The analogy is quite apt.

And yes, I see as much hope in the ending as there is sadness. 


Offline tpe

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #200 on: Mar 30, 2009, 08:07 AM »
Well, IMO (and this is in a way a reply to Baby Tammy) if we withdraw this thread, we could do it with dozens of others too. Coz in most of them (which regards the movie itself) we give our opinion on things. Some can be wrong (e.g. if I said that Jack never loved Ennis   ^*() ), but most of them are not right or wrong. I give my opinion about their pain and suffer, and I know they both suffered, and I know that there's no measuring instrument to measure the pain.

This topic is different from others only because we discussed their pain. In another we're measuring their love - "Whose love speak to you more?". We just give our opinion, we dissect the scenes, quotes and all. In the thread "we gotta stick this out" we are talking about what Ennis thought and did Jack feel guilty in that moment etc.... but again it is what we think - and we are not Ennis or Jack. And we love them both!

In discussion here, I changed my mind about some meaning in the movie many times - sometimes by myself but mostly coz the influence of other members. It is the journey, and I tend to believe that we're all still away from the end.

And maybe there's a huge open space between my opinion and the reality that existed in those 20 years of most beautiful love. I don't know, but I'm ready to explore it. :c)

And like that other thread, this tells you more about ourselves and how we view pain, brokenness, and the human condition -- as much as how much we empathize about certain aspects of it and live with them even in our own lives. 

Offline tpe

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #201 on: Mar 30, 2009, 08:10 AM »
I think that Jack was doing things he really believed in all his life. He had many sins, he suffered coz/for those sins, but he was an honest, open person who lived with all his heart, who treated others in his best way, who, regardless of his sins was a really good man. I think that he's gone in peace. Redemption is possible, but not so long... And I don't think that he was a saint, I just see him as a person who had no doubts about his deeds and who avoid hurting others... or I am subjective again when it comes to Jack Twist? Don't know! :s)

Ennis's life in the trailer was a kind of redemption for not being brave to live full life with the only one he loved. Now he's doomed to live the full life bravely, but without Jack. That kind of life is like the food without salt - no taste!

I agree here with MPJ - he lived a poor substitute for life.

But so long as one gets another chance to love those who mean so much to you (i.e., his daughters), it was not so bad, no?  It's Jack's legacy of love to Ennis, I think -- even if jack's love was imperfect.  That's the miracle of it all.


Offline tpe

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #202 on: Mar 30, 2009, 08:22 AM »

You provoke very interesting and motional discussions ^f^

I was trying to answer your question and I realize that I can't. I think the reason is I never thought of Ennis's and Jack's misery as of something being subject to redemption.  Maybe it's the question of my understanding of redemption which for me is always connected with guilt, sin, necessary of repentance, asking for absolution and only then with peace.

If you ask if there is chance for peace after realizing all my failures , my answer would be yes but I would never connect this with redemption only with forgiving myself and willingness to open my heart in spite of terrible pain, what IMO Ennis did.
Your question of redemption (by me understood as  and willingness to continue my journey into the happiness) after death is more difficult because it touches our religion beliefs. I'm the lucky to believe that death is the beginning of another life
so for me the "redemption" after death is not only possible but even inevitable. I wish Jack's "redemption" would be only waiting patiently for Ennis and their eternal sweet life.

You understood correctly, traveller.  And yes, it is more difficult to answer because they tough on matters that humnas have been asking for ages and continue to search for answers.  I too bleiev in an afterlife, but even if I didn't, I think that redemption in this life is possible -- even if imperfect.  To live the good life does not necessarily equate to living a life of happiness.  But in many cases, it it through pain and suffering that we achive some measure of peace and meaning in life -- if not complete happiness.


vedrana

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #203 on: Mar 31, 2009, 01:57 AM »
But so long as one gets another chance to love those who mean so much to you (i.e., his daughters), it was not so bad, no?  It's Jack's legacy of love to Ennis, I think -- even if jack's love was imperfect.  That's the miracle of it all.

Well, IMO Jack's love was perfect! Maybe too perfect for the imperfect environment they were living at. Is this too romantic or too subjective, I don't know! But Jack really loved Ennis with the pure immense love.

Still, I see no miracle in the end. Not that I'm not trying, it is just that I can't. For me - almost all's lost! :(

vedrana

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #204 on: Mar 31, 2009, 01:59 AM »
And like that other thread, this tells you more about ourselves and how we view pain, brokenness, and the human condition -- as much as how much we empathize about certain aspects of it and live with them even in our own lives. 

I agree with this! And lovely put, BTW! :)

Offline tpe

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #205 on: Mar 31, 2009, 09:27 AM »
Well, IMO Jack's love was perfect! Maybe too perfect for the imperfect environment they were living at. Is this too romantic or too subjective, I don't know! But Jack really loved Ennis with the pure immense love.

Still, I see no miracle in the end. Not that I'm not trying, it is just that I can't. For me - almost all's lost! :(


Well, I wouldn't say that it was perfect.  But I think it was very gentle.  To love gently is a difficult thing to do.  In trying to "measure" the greater sorrow, we should also take into acount the measure of "forgiveness" or understanding.  In this regard, I think Jack's was exemplary, although it can be argued whether this gave him any great consolation.  With the DE in mind, I think that it did, and therefore, perhaps his measure of sorrow was tempered by that gentleness.

   
I agree with this! And lovely put, BTW! :)

Thanks, loreen.  :)


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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #206 on: Mar 31, 2009, 03:40 PM »
Not sure if you have Christian background or not, but here are three of my favorite songs that your statement above reminded me of them:

Michael Card's Known by the Scar


Garth Brooks
The Dance


Standing Outside the Fire


I have a few others of the same theme but can't recall them off the top.
 :ghug: here's to all those who pick themselves up, dust themselves off, and move on again.  :cr)



BBM time is for me time to discover and revalue so many things about myself. I've never thought the country music may be motional and give so possitive message. Thank you, Lance ^f^
In regard to my Christian beackground, I certainly have some because I was born in catholic family but I only feel good looking for God in every single moment of joy, beauty and awareness than in any official religion.
The point is, we both should be in this camp.

Offline traveller

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #207 on: Mar 31, 2009, 03:48 PM »
You understood correctly, traveller.  And yes, it is more difficult to answer because they tough on matters that humnas have been asking for ages and continue to search for answers.  I too bleiev in an afterlife, but even if I didn't, I think that redemption in this life is possible -- even if imperfect.  To live the good life does not necessarily equate to living a life of happiness.  But in many cases, it it through pain and suffering that we achive some measure of peace and meaning in life -- if not complete happiness.


It must be so difficult to know/believe death is the real end. From all my heart I hope Ennis did believe in afterlife (such a nice and convenient word, thanks:-))
The point is, we both should be in this camp.

Offline traveller

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #208 on: Mar 31, 2009, 04:03 PM »
This is so true. I guess that we can not recognize and respect something we've never tasted - if someone never knew the pain, than he's immune to the sympathy for others' pain. But that person can also never experience the joy - coz have nothing to compare it with. We know the joy, only because we know the pain, right?

I believe that the pain, both of our boys have tasted during the separation over the years, made their infrequent meetings more joyful and truly happy. So much so that they even didn't want to singe them with the talking about the life they've left behind for a short while.  :(
I absolutely agree with you : there is no real empathy, joy and maybe even true love without experiencing pain and sorrow ^f^

And what you said about Ennis an Jack, IMO tells us o lot about their commitment, respect and love. 20 years is a lot of time.  So many years of separation. The things between Ennis and Jack could easy go in opposite direction, the separation is often such a strong impulse to get closed and permanently angry.
The point is, we both should be in this camp.

vedrana

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Re: Which is the Greater Sorrow?
« Reply #209 on: Apr 01, 2009, 07:38 AM »

Well, I wouldn't say that it was perfect.  But I think it was very gentle.  To love gently is a difficult thing to do.  In trying to "measure" the greater sorrow, we should also take into acount the measure of "forgiveness" or understanding.  In this regard, I think Jack's was exemplary, although it can be argued whether this gave him any great consolation.  With the DE in mind, I think that it did, and therefore, perhaps his measure of sorrow was tempered by that gentleness.

 :s) Why do you think that Jack's love wasn't perfect? He was willing to do anything, to leave his own child (and wife), to go wherever Ennis would him to, he was patient, understanding... what more should've he done to have perfect love for Ennis?  :s)

As much as in this world anything could be perfect, I think that his love was.