Author Topic: Foreplay...???  (Read 36247 times)

Offline proulxfan

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Foreplay...???
« on: Mar 15, 2006, 09:55 PM »
One part of the short story still puzzles me and I'm curious as to how others interpret this:"'Jesus Christ, quit hammerin and get over here. Bedroll's big enough'...It was big enough, warm enough, and in a little while they had deepened their intimacy considerably." This is followed by Jack reaching over and grabbing Ennis's hand and, well,... you know the rest. But I wonder what Annie meant by deepening their intimacy...it's suggestive that there was some kind of touching, snuggling leading up to the "big moment". This line doesn't make it into the screenplay. Anybody else have some insight about this??
Jack: " Nice to know you, Ennis Del Mar."

Offline chameau

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Re: Foreplay...???
« Reply #1 on: Mar 15, 2006, 10:04 PM »
They were both drunk  ???  If I make any sense, alcohol lower inhibitions.

Foreplay we could see in the screenplay and the movie, 2nd tent scene.
La dictature c'est ''ferme ta geule'', la démocratie c'est ''cause toujours''
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Offline proulxfan

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Re: Foreplay...???
« Reply #2 on: Mar 15, 2006, 10:12 PM »
Cham,
True, the second tent scene has lots. But I am wondering...yes alcohol lowers inhibitions, so do y'all think J & E cuddled a bit that first time before getting down to business? I am asking because when I first saw the film, I thought their sexual encounter came as a complete surprise, but maybe they snuggled together a little bit first... :-\ at least in the story...
« Last Edit: Mar 15, 2006, 10:14 PM by proulxfan »
Jack: " Nice to know you, Ennis Del Mar."

Offline chameau

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Re: Foreplay...???
« Reply #3 on: Mar 15, 2006, 10:19 PM »
Cham,
True, the second tent scene has lots. But I am wondering...yes alcohol lowers inhibitions, so do y'all think J & E cuddled a bit that first time before getting down to business? I am asking because when I first saw the film, I thought their sexual encounter came as a complete surprise, but maybe they snuggled together a little bit first... :-\ at least in the story...

Not an easy question.  Maybe Jack had something on his mind. If I think this still,  is not from the story but the movie, Jack's glances at Ennis I mean.  About the story I would stick to what I wrote before, they were drunk, Jack was horny and... well ya know what happened.

I can't wait for more comments.
La dictature c'est ''ferme ta geule'', la démocratie c'est ''cause toujours''
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Offline jerasjr

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Re: Foreplay...???
« Reply #4 on: Mar 15, 2006, 10:42 PM »
Ennis came in from the cold to the warmth of the bedroll...aren't we told that one of the best ways to warm a cold body is to warm them with your own body?  I can imagine instinctively Jack & Ennis moved close together and stayed that way, comfortably, companionably.  Jack made the move, and the rest is just about the most intense sexual scene... So in a way maybe it was foreplay, becoming comfortable in the same space in a way that they did not have the chance for before.
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Offline jackie62

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Re: Foreplay...???
« Reply #5 on: Mar 16, 2006, 10:05 AM »
Having read the short story ---I'd imagined , like others that when E came inside the tent , the warmth of J made him get close and there was some kind of foolin around before they did what came naturally .

 I was initially stunned by how quickly things moved and also how real it seemed. Some people I've spoken to would have been alot happier if it hadn't been so direct and so realistic --- but to me it seems exactly what these 2 people would do. E is only going to get past his inhibitions in a sudden explosive way --- and J was ready to go wherever his feelings and needs took him. I did feel like I had intruded on a deeply private moment between 2 people.

This thread also lets me comment on 1 image from the movie that comes regularly into my mind. When E pulls away from touching J (after he has put his hand under the covers ), I love the way J doesn't say a word but by the sheer force of his gaze and holding E head he forces E to confront what he wants and needs. Maybe he knows E isn't ready to kiss him , but the way he puts their 2 foreheads together ,it's like he's saying , " you know what's happening, you want this ".   

Offline chameau

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Re: Foreplay...???
« Reply #6 on: Mar 16, 2006, 12:14 PM »
Quote
This thread also lets me comment on 1 image from the movie that comes regularly into my mind. When E pulls away from touching J (after he has put his hand under the covers ), I love the way J doesn't say a word but by the sheer force of his gaze and holding E head he forces E to confront what he wants and needs. Maybe he knows E isn't ready to kiss him , but the way he puts their 2 foreheads together ,it's like he's saying , " you know what's happening, you want this ".


I like the way you wrote this Jackie62, you make a lot of sense
La dictature c'est ''ferme ta geule'', la démocratie c'est ''cause toujours''
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Offline keren_b

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Re: Foreplay...???
« Reply #7 on: Mar 16, 2006, 02:56 PM »
I've seen the movie before I read the short story, so I didn't know what to expect, but I was also quite stunned by how fast it happened in the first time. I mean, one moment Ennis was still asleep, and the next... and it seemed to me like Ennis was penetrating too fast which must've been pretty painful for Jack... (sorry if I'm being too graphic here but, well, you know what I mean!!! plus, in the short story - which I've read by now - Ennis uses his saliva for that matter, I don't think he did that in the movie...) I just thought it was too fast.
now, the more I think about it, it makes more sense... they were drunk, which explains a lot, they were impulsive, as if they didn't even think about what they were doing. they were just following their instincts, like animals. that's why they didn't kiss or show their emotions at that point, they didn't express love - only lust. it was only later, after they had time to think about it and process what happened, after Ennis came to realize what he felt for Jack, that they kissed for the first time and expressed all their love for each other in such a magnificent way... this scene is so beautiful, you can see it's still difficult for Ennis at first and he's fighting his emotions, until he finally gives in to Jack's kiss... how I love that part... on God, cold shower ASAP!!!!!  :P :P :P
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Offline Toadily

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Re: Foreplay...???
« Reply #8 on: Mar 16, 2006, 02:59 PM »
I think that Proulx and the screen writers were saying is Ennis wouldn't have been open to foreplay at first, he was stunned by his feelings
so he dove in, remember this is Ennis, he fights things. 
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Offline Italian_Dude

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Re: Foreplay...???
« Reply #9 on: Mar 16, 2006, 03:47 PM »
I think that Proulx and the screen writers were saying is Ennis wouldn't have been open to foreplay at first, he was stunned by his feelings
so he dove in, remember this is Ennis, he fights things. 

I agree!
You and me together
Through the days and nights
I don't worry 'cause
Everything's gonna be all right
People keep talking
They can say what they like
But all I know is everything's gonna be all right..

Offline Cowboy Cody

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Re: Foreplay...???
« Reply #10 on: Mar 16, 2006, 04:25 PM »
I think that Proulx and the screen writers were saying is Ennis wouldn't have been open to foreplay at first, he was stunned by his feelings
so he dove in, remember this is Ennis, he fights things. 

I agree!

Agreed. I don't think Ennis would have thought about foreplay, I think it just would have been like the 4th of July...no warning....just all booms, bams, and ahhhhs!
You were goin' up there to go fishin'....NO SHIT! GIMME SEX!

Offline Italian_Dude

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Re: Foreplay...???
« Reply #11 on: Mar 16, 2006, 05:13 PM »
I think that Proulx and the screen writers were saying is Ennis wouldn't have been open to foreplay at first, he was stunned by his feelings
so he dove in, remember this is Ennis, he fights things. 

I agree!

Agreed. I don't think Ennis would have thought about foreplay, I think it just would have been like the 4th of July...no warning....just all booms, bams, and ahhhhs!

*mental image*

thanks Cody :P

(ps where im from it'd be July 1st) HAHAHA!
You and me together
Through the days and nights
I don't worry 'cause
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People keep talking
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But all I know is everything's gonna be all right..

Offline madisondel

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Re: Foreplay...???
« Reply #12 on: Mar 16, 2006, 05:35 PM »
whew...is it hot in here or is it just me?
Everyone's got a little brokeback in 'em

Offline jerasjr

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Re: Foreplay...???
« Reply #13 on: Mar 16, 2006, 05:37 PM »
Another take on "foreplay"... Jack & Ennis are uneducated, they are from ranch country, they are familiar with the behavior of ranch animals... cows, sheep and horses don't know from foreplay, except for maybe a little run around the field or corral.  Jack & Ennis don't even know the word foreplay.  Jack wanted Ennis hand in his crotch and he put it there, Ennis at first confused and sleepy, did respond animally with an great love scene of such instensity it was unbelievable.
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Offline sweetlilg

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Re: Foreplay...???
« Reply #14 on: Mar 16, 2006, 05:46 PM »
I think that Proulx and the screen writers were saying is Ennis wouldn't have been open to foreplay at first, he was stunned by his feelings
so he dove in, remember this is Ennis, he fights things. 

I agree!

Agreed. I don't think Ennis would have thought about foreplay, I think it just would have been like the 4th of July...no warning....just all booms, bams, and ahhhhs!

*mental image*

thanks Cody :P

(ps where im from it'd be July 1st) HAHAHA!

teehee i love this thread!  ;D
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Offline proulxfan

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Re: Foreplay...???
« Reply #15 on: Mar 16, 2006, 09:44 PM »
But this just leads me in a complete circle!! Again the question I am asking is, what does Proulx mean by "... they had deepened their intimacy considerably," especially since this supposedly takes place in the "big enough, warm enough" bedroll ?? The wham bam part happens outside of that, after they had "warmed up" :P And again I will specify this is in the context of the short story, not the film. In the film there is no such allusion...
« Last Edit: Mar 16, 2006, 09:47 PM by proulxfan »
Jack: " Nice to know you, Ennis Del Mar."

Offline jerasjr

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Re: Foreplay...???
« Reply #16 on: Mar 16, 2006, 10:08 PM »
The line reads "and in a little while, they deepened their intimacy considerably."  For me it reads as a forewarning that something is going to happen, not that anything is happening at that moment.  You can't leave out "in a little while" - it ties the whole together...
« Last Edit: Mar 16, 2006, 10:11 PM by jerasjr »
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Offline madisondel

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Re: Foreplay...???
« Reply #17 on: Mar 16, 2006, 10:14 PM »
I don't think that this line has to mean foreplay. It could simply mean that since they were in there together, they grew more accustomed to each other, more comfortable in each other's presence. Enough so , that without any foreplay, Jack felt comfortable enough to initiate a sexual encounter.
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Re: Foreplay...???
« Reply #18 on: Mar 16, 2006, 10:20 PM »
Quote
..It was big enough, warm enough, and in a little while they had deepened their intimacy considerably."

Yeah, I was pondering about this too. I could only interpret it in two ways (then I gave up. I'm glad someone brought it up:-) ). One, this sentence foretells what's going to happen next, so it's like a "preview". Two, this is what happened, a completed action - like what  proulxfan said - then the "full throttle" thing and "the rest" happen next.

I remember someone mentioned in other thread that Jack may be sleeping nude. Also the "clear slick" thingy that doesn't just *suddenly* appear, also mentioned by some member. So, I can only imagine they did snug real close (spooning perhaps?) and Ennis had some "reactions" in his sleep, and Jack felt it, and then Jack grabbed Ennis' hand, and then ....
« Last Edit: Mar 16, 2006, 10:22 PM by tweric »

Offline proulxfan

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Re: Foreplay...???
« Reply #19 on: Mar 16, 2006, 10:22 PM »
Yeah, I gotta admit I created my own problem by using the word foreplay...that was really kind of a teaser and wasn't exactly what I had in mind...just being comfortable with the physical closeness and possibly having arms around the other for warmth were closer to what I had pictured. And the note about "in a little while" is well taken. It could indeed be a foreshadowing of ...never mind! I won't say it! I won't!!!
« Last Edit: Mar 16, 2006, 10:29 PM by proulxfan »
Jack: " Nice to know you, Ennis Del Mar."

Offline jerasjr

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Re: Foreplay...???
« Reply #20 on: Mar 16, 2006, 10:28 PM »
Don't worry, we are all filling in the blanks... imagination is a wonderful thing!  And I do believe innately it was a form of foreplay, like you say to get close(r), and more comfortable with that closeness...but we know what happens...hope you didn't mind my earlier post, was just being realistic about how limited their life experiences were, and how it affected their actions.  BTW, teasers amke us interested, so guess you accomplished that.
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Offline jackie62

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Re: Foreplay...???
« Reply #21 on: Mar 17, 2006, 05:19 AM »
I think the story and the film do differ a bit there.

In the story i did believe they had started with foreplay and Ennis stepped the pace up. I think the foreplay would have been pretty basic and in keeping with 2  horny 19 yr old country boys.
The story also seems to suggest that on waking the next morning , Ennis and Jack were both happy and accepting of what  had happened.

In the movie, the immediacy of the sex has incredible power . Most audiences gasp and go quiet or laugh. I don't know why it was filmed in this way but i think it could be to do with suggesting the intensity of the feelings and the only way Ennis could overcome his fears. Then , in the morning there is a strong suggestion as Ennis rides away that he hasn't decided whether to love Jack or reject him. By this stage in the story, we'd already got to " they both knew how it would go for rest of summer ... sheep be damned." 


I think the contrast between the 2 tent scenes is genius.


P.S. THANKS TO THE MODERATORS FOR A GREEN BBM --- AS AN IRISH GIRL IT  MADE ME SMILE. Want to share my shamrock with Ennis!!!! 

Offline proulxfan

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Re: Foreplay...???
« Reply #22 on: Mar 17, 2006, 07:36 AM »
Jackie,
Thanks for those additional insights on the differences in the story vs. the film, on both the first tent scene and the day after. They are handled very differently. 
I agree that the 2nd tent scene, which the story doesn't have at all, is perhaps my favorite bonus in the film. I enjoy it more every time I see the film, and even enjoy the minor controversy it has created on another thread over just what exactly is being whispered, and by whom?? That part of the disc may get worn out when I get the DVD, so I better have a backup copy! :D

BTW Ditto on the green borders, and I'll share my shamrocks with anybody here!!
« Last Edit: Mar 17, 2006, 07:40 AM by proulxfan »
Jack: " Nice to know you, Ennis Del Mar."

Offline jerasjr

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Re: Foreplay...???
« Reply #23 on: Mar 18, 2006, 09:10 PM »
Jackie, just don't agree that they were happy what happened, especially Ennis, but I do agree that they were accepting of what happened.  They were 2 uneducated ranch hands not entirely familiar with thinking too much beyond the present and near future.  Think that any happiness they derived came later in the relationship when they were more comfortable with themselves and each other and their burgeoning love affair.
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Offline jackie62

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Re: Foreplay...???
« Reply #24 on: Mar 19, 2006, 08:04 AM »
Yes --- happy is too strong a word.

I just meant that in the story ,when they woke, "they knew how it would go for the rest of the summer . Sheep be damned." I meant they'd probably already decided this was how things were going to be.

In the movie , Ennis clearly is troubled by what happened and we don't really know what he'll decide. When Jack says "see you at supper",--- he looks away. ( in the screenplay he nods -- not in the movie). One friend ,when she saw the movie was convinced that when Ennis finds Jack later that day and walks over to him holding a gun --- he could have been planning to shoot him!!!!

Offline TJ

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Re: Foreplay...???
« Reply #25 on: Mar 23, 2006, 06:22 PM »
In the original story, the "deepened intimacy" indicated what we would call foreplay. And, evidence of that foreplay was the "clear slick" at the head of Ennis' penis.

In the movie, there was no foreplay at all. It was almost like a rape scene with no preparation.
(Ennis) is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream . . . lets a panel of the dream slide forward . . . it might stoke the day, rewarm that old, cold time on the mountain when they owned the world and nothing seemed wrong.

Offline jason

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Re: Foreplay...???
« Reply #26 on: Mar 25, 2006, 12:20 AM »
But this just leads me in a complete circle!! Again the question I am asking is, what does Proulx mean by "... they had deepened their intimacy considerably," especially since this supposedly takes place in the "big enough, warm enough" bedroll ?? The wham bam part happens outside of that, after they had "warmed up" :P And again I will specify this is in the context of the short story, not the film. In the film there is no such allusion...


Everyone's view is the correct one for them.  My "own correct view" (to quote some column title!) is this.  The intimacy being deepened is the domestic intimacy of camping together for weeks.  I tried this idea out and seemed to meet with a lot of agreement on another thread -- see quotes below. 

I just don't think, IMHO, that foreplay is part of the prior "intimacy."  I know this is an unsatisfying conclusion to my pals who want a rich classic romance before the first tent scene.

I also think that the love scene is meant to be sudden and unexpected.  Just don't see any warm up that the other posts talk of.  But who knows?
____
*Many* scenes express the natural flow towards an increasingly mutual and  domestical camp life (I shd say camping life). 

Within all the general camping activity like packing horses, whittling in the tent on a rainy day, etc, there are several overt scenes which I think are meant to show a deepening common life.  They cook a lot, with the camera pointed at the pan, less at Ennis.  There's the Ennis washing scene, they put up a tent, they take it down, they drink often and in detail, from the same bottle; Jack's in the buff washing Ennis' shirt, etc. Jack goes off to pee (book makes a bit of a deal of this). 

I think the creators are using these scenes to make the progress to an intimate life seem more likely, "inevitable" Proulx says in the story.

The funny thing is, all the domesticity seems to take the place of overt romantic flirtatious behavior.
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Offline n061857

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Re: Foreplay...???
« Reply #27 on: Mar 25, 2006, 11:48 PM »
plus, in the short story - which I've read by now - Ennis uses his saliva for that matter, I don't think he did that in the movie...)

He does use saliva in the movie.  Someone here also mentions a thread about what was said in the second tent scene.  I have been looking for that.  If anyone can direct me, I'd appreciate it. 

I just took Annie to mean that sometime later they would be more intimate, sexual.  Not right now.

Offline keren_b

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Re: Foreplay...???
« Reply #28 on: Mar 26, 2006, 07:31 AM »
plus, in the short story - which I've read by now - Ennis uses his saliva for that matter, I don't think he did that in the movie...)

He does use saliva in the movie. 

He does?? I didn't notice. well, I'll just have to pay extra attention to it in my next viewing... ;) tonight, maybe? ::)
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Offline bram

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Re: Foreplay...???
« Reply #29 on: Mar 26, 2006, 08:20 AM »
Watching the movie before reasing the story, I'd say that it either foreshadowed what was about to happen or that it just meant that they were comfortable sleeping together, just sleeping. I think if I had read the story first and then watched the movie, I might have thought that there was some cuddling, but nothing more. There couldn't have been more, because then why would he have pulled away like that? I personally love the way they did it in the movie, including how they presented the next morning.
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