Author Topic: Anger and Sympathy towards Ennis (Read 42719 times)

Toadily · « **Reply #30 on:** Jan 14, 2006, 05:57 PM »

Right and the other thing is Ennis didn't think Jack woud die, I mean we all kind of string things along thinking we have plenty of time and he and Jack would always see each other...

Angelove · « **Reply #31 on:** Jan 16, 2006, 03:44 PM »

Thanks Liam56 for sharing with us.

I used to be an Ennis too until I came out and now, I fully embrace the Jack side of me and I've become him which is kind interesting since I get to see both sides of the same coin. It's strange to look back now and see how much I have changed since then, lol. I believe I've came to peace with Ennis and although I still get a little peeved at some of the choices he has made, I understand why he makes them and the anger seems to melt away.

Liam56 · « **Reply #32 on:** Jan 21, 2006, 01:07 AM »

Quote from: Angelove on Jan 16, 2006, 03:44 PM

Thanks Liam56 for sharing with us.

I used to be an Ennis too until I came out and now, I fully embrace the Jack side of me and I've become him which is kind interesting since I get to see both sides of the same coin. It's strange to look back now and see how much I have changed since then, lol. I believe I've came to peace with Ennis and although I still get a little peeved at some of the choices he has made, I understand why he makes them and the anger seems to melt away.

Hi Angelove---

Thanks for the comments.

I wish I could mouth what you said and have it apply to me. I'm pretty out (except to my family) but a lot of the old tapes still get played over in my head and I get fearful and then the Ennis side takes over my Jack side. I guess the Jack side of me is the need I have for people. I like to study in a coffee shop where there are human voices in the background. I love conversation and the company of good friends. Ennis was too much a loner and that's the part of his personality that was so heart wrenching. But his fears still haunt me from time to time and overpower the Jack side. I guess we are all a part of both characters, very much like the Apollo/Dionysian side of our personalities.

That's why I love the movie so much because there is so much in it that is personal, and painful as well. But it forces you to look deeper within yourself.

Have a nice day!

coguaro · « **Reply #33 on:** Jan 21, 2006, 03:59 AM »

I think that Ennis was totally captured by love for Jack but he didnt have dialectic capability to understand what it happened to him and enought force to win his fears; Im thinking to the scene whene he vomiting and crie at the same time after leaving Jack... a classical somatization; It seems that Ennis was in love much more than Jack.Ennis upsets his life while Jack is able to organize it. Jack had capability to find other relations and seems to more tolerate to be with other mans; following his passions Jack was more exposed to social prejudgement and that will carry him to death for assassination! By this way paradoxically he didnt protect his relation with Ennis and removed maybe the only possibility for Ennis to found love in his live.
Finally I think Ennis was the victim of the story, of himself and of his society
I love very much Ennis.
Coguaro

chameau · « **Reply #34 on:** Jan 21, 2006, 04:09 PM »

Quote

I think that Ennis was totally captured by love for Jack but he didnt have dialectic capability to understand what it happened to him and enought force to win his fears; Im thinking to the scene whene he vomiting and crie at the same time after leaving Jack... a classical somatization; It seems that Ennis was in love much more than Jack.Ennis upsets his life while Jack is able to organize it. Jack had capability to find other relations and seems to more tolerate to be with other mans; following his passions Jack was more exposed to social prejudgement and that will carry him to death for assassination! By this way paradoxically he didnt protect his relation with Ennis and removed maybe the only possibility for Ennis to found love in his live.
Finally I think Ennis was the victim of the story, of himself and of his society

Very well said coguaro!

Quote

I love very much Ennis.
Coguaro

Damnit! Another competitor!

I love him too. :-\

Big hugs to you coguaro

Pierre

manila_rocks · « **Reply #35 on:** Jan 22, 2006, 12:43 AM »

I feel no anger toward Ennis. He, like all of us, are products not only of our biology but our early childhood experiences and current/past environment.
Add his childhood trauma/early parental abandonment to the "state of the world" in terms of male on male sex circa 1964 in Wyoming and I feel only love.

Toadily · « **Reply #36 on:** Jan 22, 2006, 12:51 AM »

I did have anger at Ennis for a long time but now I love the guy, maybe a personal exceptance story I don't know. But I just saw it again today and I felt a kinship, he is more an everyman than Jack.

francis.shim · « **Reply #37 on:** Jan 22, 2006, 03:13 AM »

Quote from: Angelove on Jan 01, 2006, 05:35 AM

Howdy folks!

It's me Ryan again. I watched the movie the second time with two of my best girlfriends this afternoon. I kind of dreaded watching the movie again because it was very painful to watch it the first time because of Ennis and his dishonesty with not others, but himself, throughout the movie.

If not for the tragic ending, I would have given a bad review of this movie since I didn't like how Ennis made me feel up to the turning point near the end of the movie. I kept putting myself in Ennis's shoes and imagining myself doing things my way so that the movie wouldn't have ended in tragedy, that things would have turned out differently, that Ennis might be there with Jack when he passed from this life. I kept getting angry at Ennis's character for not having the courage to realize his needs and pursue them. I was angry at him for entering into a marriage and being dishonest with his wife, a woman who deserves to be loved in return.

You see, I came from a Mormon family and I was the eldest son. I was so scared of coming out that I hid in my closet in fear until I was twenty. It was only when I turned twenty that I reviewed my life and found that I was not happy. I was not happy because I felt that I missed out in my teenage years. I never had any real friends because I never showed who I was, I was living a lie the entire time. I never had a relationship. I never went out on a date. I never kissed. I never loved somebody.

It was then that I had to make a choice. One choice was to spend the rest of my life being the good son and saint and marrying a nice girl and raising a big family in the safety net of what was indoctrinated into me since I was a child. However, I would be living a lie and I couldn't imagine lying to my wife or raising my kids in a loveless marriage just so that I can feel "safe". This is the relationship model my parents had and I didn't want to end up like them, who are now thankfully divorced.

The second choice would be spend the rest of my life in solitude and being the perfect saint. This way, I would not be breaking God's rules or lying to a girl and to my family; the only person I would hurt is myself and I would become a martyr for my beliefs. However, this option is unbearable to me since I don't want to spend the rest of my life alone and deprived of love, counting the days to my death. No person should resign himself to such a fate, a life without the hope of love.

The third option would be to abandon the life I led up to that point and take a leap of faith. I would have to put my family into shame and break my parents' hearts. I would also have to accept the risk that my parents might kick me out of the house once I tell the truth about who I am. However, I realized that God would rather have me happy then be miserable and resign myself to a fate worse than death. I also realized that my parents will still love me for who I am and I don't want them to die only knowing me as their good son rather than their true son. So naturally, I picked the third option and have been happy ever since. I've never regretted my decision.

However, this is where my dissatisfaction with Ennis stems from. Because of the social climate of our times, I can come out today in my local area without the two threats that loomed over Ennis's head, the threat of his death and harm to the people he loves, especially Jack. This is not just a simple fear, but a real and serious risk that Ennis would place not only himself, but the people around him.

Although I might be able to believe that I'm invincible at the time and be fearless about death given my youth, I will regret living my life at the expense of my family, friends and lover. And once I saw it from that standpoint, I can finally sympathize why Ennis did what he did; he wanted to protect himself and the people he love, especially Jack more than himself. This is illustrated when he stood up for his family during the fireworks. He would rather sacrifice his own life and needs to protect others from getting hurt.

Throughout the movie, we see that Ennis associates being himself, or more specifically, loving Jack, with death and tragedy, the first of which is when he finds the remains of the sheep on the mountain after a passionate night with Jack. However, the more poignant one is that of his father showing him the corpse by the roadside. If I had that same traumatic childhood memory, then I would equate being queer as death. I probably wouldn't have come out at all and being a selfish, but real person suffering from the "human condition" of wanting to receive and give love, I would also have picked marrying a woman and have kids rather than staying single and dying alone or seeing my love ones mowed down by bigots.

If his time was more like our own, if he was not raised to be a Malboro man/cowboy/father figure/etc, if he was able to love and be who he wanted to be, he could have spared himself from watching the people around him getting hurt by his decision. I believe that Ennis grew wise enough to realise that as much as he protected his love ones from death and harm, he was also the source of their emotional torment and hell.

I believe that the reason why he got more and more hunched and closed throughout the movie was because he couldn't stop himself from simultaneously loving, protecting and hurting the people he loves and saw no way to break the vicious cycle. He's constantly internally wrecked with guilt and shame that although he strives to be their protector, he was also their tormentor as well. Something he could not forgive himself, but was forced to live with since the other alternative, death, scared him far greater.

That's probably why Ennis broke up with his second girlfriend; he didn't want to hurt anymore people. What I took from Ennis's breakup with his second girlfriend after his last meeting with Jack was that he was beginning to break out of that cycle; he was ready to accept a life with Jack if it was not for his untimely demise.

The true tragedy for me was not really Jack's death, but that Ennis was so close to finally attaining the freedom and happiness he has always wanted and dreamed of. We all wanted him to be happy. And we all felt his pain and loss when he hugged Jack's shirt. We all felt that he deserved the freedom to love and be loved, the same kind of freedom that we sometimes take for granted.

What the movie shows is that the true enemy is not religious groups, the government or even hateful bigots. It's death. We are only given so much time to live, and Time is very unforgiving if we do not learn from our mistakes. Death is certain and it will not give us a second chance once it passes. If anything, what we should take from the movie, as my friend Mike rightfully mentioned, is to live each day as if it was our first and be with our love ones as if it was their last. Because it might be.

As you can see, the movie is still affecting me and I hope that my thoughts on this matter will help others come to terms with the movie as it did for me. I hope to hear more comments regarding my newest post. Take care and Happy New Year, don't let it go to waste.

Ryan

Hi Ryan,

I am new to this board and I know that people have already responded to you. So I hope that you don't mind my response.

Just from your description of your own upbringing I think you have made it clear exactly why you feel both angry and sympathetic to Ennis. Ennis' character also has to deal with similar dysfunctional anti-gay sentiments that have been internalized. Essentially, we are being programmed with anti-gay sentiments from the likes of religious groups and ultra-right-wing-conservatives in our society... so all of us can relate to Ennis' fears of continuuing his relationship with Jack. I came from a Roman Catholic background and the difficulties that I had to go through to become more self-affirming and honest with who I am were enormous especially since I recognized I was gay, yet I truly wanted and had a deeply spiritual and philosophical obligation to doing what is right.

Brokeback Mountain is not just about Jack and Ennis... it was about consequences and their victims and victors. Love, sex, friendship were among some of the forces at work here and its victims were the characters in the movie. I almost hesitate to say there were victors because it really depends on one's standpoint.

Ennis was no victor by a long shot. It was clear he was a victim. Ennis was brought up and taught that being gay was wrong and was punishable by death. How can we blame him for trying to do what he thought was the right thing by *sacrificing* his feelings for Jack and cut them loose from a *dangerous liason*. He must have felt it was the only thing he could do to protect Jack's life and his. At 19, he must have really thought that this was the right thing to do... and he did it... and he broke down and cried that he had to do it. I though the sequence when young Ennis declined a lift from young Jack and then as he walked the opposite way only to find himself slowing to a crawl and then succumbed to his knees in front of a unfeeling wooden wall... he was cursing his choice... he did not want to have to make such an awful choice. He was *ONLY* trying to do the right thing and yet it hurt him to no end.

From that awful defining moment, the forces at play and their consequences came stampeding through the rest of the movie. Bullish hopes and trampled lives became evident as the force of homophobia rocked its merry tune. Of course, we have to be angry at Ennis... but, of course, we also understand why he did what he did.

No, Ennis was no hero, he was no enemy... he simply was a victim of circumstances and the prevailing conditions of thought.

Brokeback Mountain is then a testament for men like Ennis... that that was all they ever wanted was to do the right thing, but instead what did they get?

Take care and be easy on yourself too, pardner!

Frank

gordo · « **Reply #38 on:** Apr 02, 2010, 08:34 PM »

Hi folks I am so hung on that movie that I can't read enough about it. Can you tell me your take on why Ennis got sick in the alley way after Jack & Ennis went their seperate ways. First time replying to some one and hope it gets through as I am just learning to navigate this site....thanks gordo

chameau · « **Reply #39 on:** Apr 02, 2010, 10:11 PM »

It's not in the movie but in the original short story from the motel scene when they met in 1967 after 4 years.

“That summer,” said Ennis. “When we split up after we got
paid out I had gut cramps so bad I pulled over and tried to
puke, thought I ate somethin bad at that place in Dubois.
Took me about a year a figure out it was that I shouldn’t a
let you out a my sights. Too late then by a long, long
while.”

So Ennis was sick of leaving Jack after their Summer on Brokeback.

gordo · « **Reply #40 on:** Apr 10, 2010, 07:08 AM »

Hello do you think brokemountain will ever be shown in theaters again or it's too old? I don't follow movies in the past and wondered about this.....Gordo

chameau · « **Reply #41 on:** Apr 10, 2010, 01:24 PM »

Your post might be off topic gordo, however Brokeback Mountain is presented in art movies theaters here and there from time to time. I just want to make sure to answer your question right, it won't be released at large again.

gordo · « **Reply #42 on:** Apr 10, 2010, 04:41 PM »

Hi Chameau: Thanks for replying. It makes my day when I hear of Brokeback Mountain. I feel I should not watch it for a long time because I am hooked on it. But, maybe it's ok to watch it some more. Do other folks feel like I do?

Just last night I was at a jam and some folks were taking some photos so I wispered to my friend lets get our picture taken and I will be Ennis and you be Jack. Just having fun.... the photo was us standing like Jack and Ennis was when Ennis said Jack your sleeping like a horse standing up....lol Gordo

lancecowboy · « **Reply #43 on:** Apr 12, 2010, 08:45 AM »

Wow, so many months on this forum and still finding new areas to explore. I haven't seen this thread before. Thanks for bring it up again, Gordo.

Amazing insights here.

It's interesting that angelove was angry at Ennis, and others were not.

I cannot say I was angry at Ennis, or Jack, but I was annoyed at different parts of the story when they each lost opportunities to cement their relationship. First at the parting of ways that summer...the agonizing conversation next to the truck. Then the moment by the river, when the sweet life was proposed, and turned down. And in the motel that weekend, between the lines of sweet nothing whispered and exchanged. And the futile exchanges of words, of looks, of anguish and powerlessness after the divorce and Jack drove all that way to Riverton. At every scene when they were together, was the opportunity for one to say to the other, let's work this out, let's find us a way to be together more often, always, forever. Even a little step was better than nothing. Ennis could have told Jack that he would go with him to visit his folks in Lightning Flats before the confrontation. It would have made the missed August meet more palatable, and maybe Jack's Ma could convince Ennis to come visit more often, build themselves a cabin even.

No, at every opportunity, the two of them allowed their fears, their inertia, to carry on a most unsatisfying situation. Fears of loss, fears of love, fears of society, fears of death, and the inertia to keep going around the coffee pot looking for the handle. Jack might have fewer fears, and less inertia, but he had his demons to conquer, too.

I was neither angry at Ennis, nor feeling sympathy. I felt like I was Ennis, making the same mistakes he made, missing all 'em opportunities, feeling all 'em fears, powerlessness to change, to take that leap. Yes, perhaps I was angry, but not at Ennis, but at myself as Ennis, and through Heath's masterful performance, transforming the sympathy and love for Ennis/Heath to love for myself/Ennis.

I am not sure if all that rambling makes sense to anyone, but it's why I love Brokeback Mountain.

rimasworld · « **Reply #44 on:** Apr 12, 2010, 11:26 PM »

I've never seen this thread either. Yes, Ennis and Jack at times made me want to shake them and say "guys comeon get on the same page" but I also understood them (most of the time) why they were like the way they were. I got frustrated at Jack in the scene where Ennis was (I think) trying in his own way to come out to Jack when he asked if things were normal between Jack & Lureen and if Jack thought people looked at him like they Knew. Jack just to me kind of avoided the issue by saying "sure" things were normal and just suggested Ennis should get out of Riverton. So anyway, Jack stepped around a lot of things himself just like Ennis. And like Lance says, it is so much about missed chances, ones we can never get back, and ones we all have in our lives. It's also about love, be it all so painful and bittersweet, but love indeed.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #45 on:** Apr 18, 2010, 01:18 PM »

Well, I found myself angry yet sympathetic towards Ennis in the film. Just as a person I found him quiet, shy and unemotional. Perhaps he saw emotion as weakness somehow but he was also stoic, stubborn and very set in his way. That WAS Ennis's way. He was'nt one for pet names( though he did refer to Jack as his "little darlin" once) and long drawn out declaratons of undying love. It just was'nt him. No doubt he is a product of his very strict upbringing in the 50's and 60's, where men were men and expectations were set by society for them, especially in rural Wy. Everything was put straight-forward and certain lines were not to be crossed but...

There were times in the film where I just wanted to bop him over the head (sorry), frustrated at Ennis because what seemed so easy to do and say was so hard for Ennis to just "do it"...but I'm not him , but I relate to him in many ways. I can understand. I guess I just wanted them both to be happy.

But then I imagine how hard it must have been for him to change all he knew and believed to be right..or wrong even as I personally believe at some point Ennis did surrender his heart to Jack. I think at some point he admitted to himself that he had undeniable feelings for him, I think he claimed Jack as his and his alone, but could Ennis ever say it out loud?, Cross that line and live with Jack on their ranch?, speak the words in an expression of love that left no fear or doubt in Jack's mind?? Or even acknowledge what he felt was love? Don't think so.

He did express his feelings but thru subtle actions that Jack no doubt read correctly. Ennis needed these deeds and actions to speak loud and clear to Jack, the jeaulosy Ennis showed, the fishing trips, the confession that "Aint no reins on this one" etc.. but that had to be the most frustrating and painful thing for Jack. Those soft, sublte and endearing actions that bespoke of a caring and longing. Knowing he was in love with someone who he knew in his heart loved him back, but could not get enough courage to face his fear of it and knowing that he could not force it due to his own fear that he might loose Ennis forever which left Jack between a rock and a hard place. I felt for both of them.

lancecowboy · « **Reply #46 on:** Apr 18, 2010, 05:06 PM »

I feel what you feel, aintfoolin, but I am also reminded that we have traveled a long way from 'em early days, Stonewall, Milk, Shepard, and now, Ricky Martin...

oops. How did that get in.

Anyway, it is good that we see Ennis's missed opportunities, and yearn for him to cross that line, as you put it. It means we are looking back that long road, and not stuck there with him.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #47 on:** Apr 23, 2010, 05:07 AM »

Quote from: lancecowboy on Apr 18, 2010, 05:06 PM

I feel what you feel, aintfoolin, but I am also reminded that we have traveled a long way from 'em early days, Stonewall, Milk, Shepard, and now, Ricky Martin... oops. How did that get in.

Anyway, it is good that we see Ennis's missed opportunities, and yearn for him to cross that line, as you put it. It means we are looking back that long road, and not stuck there with him.

Yep, thanks LC, and it is to these early pioneers of the Gay Rights movement standing up and fighting, and in some cases dying for their right to be, that one such as Ricky Martin owes much as I'm sure he realizes. They helped pave the way for him to come out of the shadows into the sun in 2010. Unfortunately there are far too many Ennises still out there feeling they have to hide their love away. because though times change for the better, some people don't so easily.. I'm proud of Ricky, and for the sake of gay teens, parents of gays, and their loved ones,I hope his act of courage encourages others to do the same.

lancecowboy · « **Reply #48 on:** Apr 23, 2010, 09:38 AM »

I don't know what Ricky Martin feels but he did say in his coming out statement that he is a fortunate gay man. I think he was referring to his freedom to come out, as you put it, due to all those pioneers. And lest we forget, Sir Elton John.

I also want to interject that there are different degrees of coming out. I think many Ennises of today are at least free to come out to themselves, to know that it's okay to be gay, and not an abomination, that there are other healthy happy gay people out there. It is kind of where Jack was, accepting of himself, wishing for happiness, but not yet free enough to be public with it.

The lucky few who found true love, have no reason to come out publically because it's nobody's business but theirs. They can choose to come out, as Milk demand of his campaign because it is a political statement that makes it possible for others to come out. But it is not an obligation for everyone. Each individual has to decide if and when and how to come out. And yes, bravo to Ricky.

The main reason for any single man to come out is to find others. It's near impossible to meet true love in the closet. Unless you are as lucky as Ennis and Jack that summer.

Then again, if it is true love, it will find you. Right? So again, there is no compelling reason to come out as publically as Ricky Martin. What's important is to be honest with oneself, first and foremost, then with friends and family. However we go with that, depends on the individual and the circumstance. Just my 2 cents. Ennis was in a different place and time. And as you said, even today, there are still places where behaving as Ennis did would be survival, but sometimes, surviving is not enough.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #49 on:** Apr 24, 2010, 07:00 AM »

Quote from: lancecowboy on Apr 23, 2010, 09:38 AM

I don't know what Ricky Martin feels but he did say in his coming out statement that he is a fortunate gay man. I think he was referring to his freedom to come out, as you put it, due to all those pioneers. And lest we forget, Sir Elton John.

I also want to interject that there are different degrees of coming out. I think many Ennises of today are at least free to come out to themselves, to know that it's okay to be gay, and not an abomination, that there are other healthy happy gay people out there. It is kind of where Jack was, accepting of himself, wishing for happiness, but not yet free enough to be public with it.

The lucky few who found true love, have no reason to come out publically because it's nobody's business but theirs. They can choose to come out, as Milk demand of his campaign because it is a political statement that makes it possible for others to come out. But it is not an obligation for everyone. Each individual has to decide if and when and how to come out. And yes, bravo to Ricky.

The main reason for any single man to come out is to find others. It's near impossible to meet true love in the closet. Unless you are as lucky as Ennis and Jack that summer. Then again, if it is true love, it will find you. Right? So again, there is no compelling reason to come out as publically as Ricky Martin. What's important is to be honest with oneself, first and foremost, then with friends and family. However we go with that, depends on the individual and the circumstance. Just my 2 cents. Ennis was in a different place and time. And as you said, even today, there are still places where behaving as Ennis did would be survival, but sometimes, surviving is not enough.

Thanks , you say it so well. No none should be forced to come out or be "outed" against their wishes. It is a personal choice, but I always feel happy for those like Ricky or Sir Elton for I feel it gives hope to those who are still struggling with their own sexuality in the closets. But if one is true to themself, it's no one's business what they do with that knowledge as long as they feel free to pursue happiness as they see fit. Ennis only seemed really happy when he was with Jack which was telling, but I don't feel he felt he had options. He did what he felt he had to do to survive in those times.

lancecowboy · « **Reply #50 on:** Apr 24, 2010, 10:07 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Apr 24, 2010, 07:00 AM

Thanks , you say it so well. No none should be forced to come out or be "outed" against their wishes. It is a personal choice, but I always feel happy for those like Ricky or Sir Elton for I feel it gives hope to those who are still struggling with their own sexuality in the closets. But if one is true to themself, it's no one's business what they do with that knowledge as long as they feel free to pursue happiness as they see fit. Ennis only seemed really happy when he was with Jack which was telling, but I don't feel he felt he had options. He did what he felt he had to do to survive in those times.

Thanks. You are too kind. I also agree that no one should be forced to come out. Even politicians; even homophobic Republican politicians.

Ricky and Sir Elton came out, I think, when they have found the love that makes them happy, and can rise above the turmoil of publicity from coming out. Sir Elton found true love, and wanted to get married and tell the whole world, like Christian said to Olli in noLimit after they first got together. Ricky found happiness with his children and is in a good place where he feels it was important to be honest. No matter what their circumstances, it's nobody's business but theirs.

And it's so cruel to make someone so happy to hide it. Poor Ennis.

mimi · « **Reply #51 on:** May 11, 2010, 06:57 AM »

it is in humanities nature to over-complicate. for me, this is an intricate love story, filled with passion, denial, pain and grief. What's so different aboutbrokeback mountain and any other tragic love story??? just because its a guy and a guy in love doesnt mean its any different or any lesser than a great love story such as romeo and juliet, or titanic

rimasworld · « **Reply #52 on:** May 12, 2010, 12:10 AM »

Quote from: mimi on May 11, 2010, 06:57 AM

it is in humanities nature to over-complicate. for me, this is an intricate love story, filled with passion, denial, pain and grief. What's so different aboutbrokeback mountain and any other tragic love story??? just because its a guy and a guy in love doesnt mean its any different or any lesser than a great love story such as romeo and juliet, or titanic

Or Wuthering Heights...so many ways Ennis & Jack's tragic love remind me of Heathcliff & Cathy's.

mimi · « **Reply #53 on:** May 12, 2010, 06:37 AM »

Quote from: rimasworld on May 12, 2010, 12:10 AM

Or Wuthering Heights...so many ways Ennis & Jack's tragic love remind me of Heathcliff & Cathy's.

ahh...so, so painfully true my friend...

there are endless stories of starcross'd lovers, and Brokeback Mountain is certainly amongst the highest ranks of these

myprivatejack · « **Reply #54 on:** May 21, 2010, 12:41 PM »

I have said formerly how angry I was the first times I watched BBM and afterwards,during a rather long time.One one hand,I understood that it was not easy for him,maybe less than for Jack,because he was who denied all the time with his brain,but wishing not deny it anymore with his heart.On the other hand, I was only seeing then that being so undecided as he was marked several lives for bad,and among them his owns,with a tragic result that surely could have been avoided and that was at his only hands.
Time's passing,however,teaches you to put yourself in other people's shoes,specially when you realise how badly gays are treated still in some cultures,similes nowdays to what Ennis and Jack's environment would be in first 60's.As Lance says in another thread,fear in that rural community was the same than now can suffer the Malawi's people,for example;and it's easy to judge when you are living in a more open-minded place saying that you wouldn't be so coward.I must intone the "mea culpa",then...

mimi · « **Reply #55 on:** May 24, 2010, 05:01 AM »

i was never really angry or even frustrated at Ennis - his nature and social conditioning was such that he simply COULDN'T express his love verbally to Jack, even if he had had the courage to. I don't really think anyone has the right to be mad at him for his actions - he didn't know any different. When people say "why couldn't Ennis just run away with Jack?", the answer is because society had created such a fear within him that he just COULDN'T. It's as simple as that. He just couldn't.
In my opinion, the ones we should really be angry with is the society that made Ennis like that - incapable of expressing his love to Jack. It's society's fault, and that homophobic, fearful, aggressive, stifling society was really the cause of the entire problem. If they had been allowed to be together, Ennis would have been a very diffeent person and both men's lives would have been drastically different.

lancecowboy · « **Reply #56 on:** May 26, 2010, 01:14 AM »

Quote from: mimi on May 24, 2010, 05:01 AM

i was never really angry or even frustrated at Ennis - his nature and social conditioning was such that he simply COULDN'T express his love verbally to Jack, even if he had had the courage to. I don't really think anyone has the right to be mad at him for his actions - he didn't know any different. When people say "why couldn't Ennis just run away with Jack?", the answer is because society had created such a fear within him that he just COULDN'T. It's as simple as that. He just couldn't.
In my opinion, the ones we should really be angry with is the society that made Ennis like that - incapable of expressing his love to Jack. It's society's fault, and that homophobic, fearful, aggressive, stifling society was really the cause of the entire problem. If they had been allowed to be together, Ennis would have been a very diffeent person and both men's lives would have been drastically different.

It's not just "society" in general. It was Ennis's father, specifically, his hatred manifested in, if not the murderous act, the condoning it, by showing it to the brothers.

It's not just the violence and aggression of those actively following a life of hatred, but also the silent ones who stood by doing nothing, either in action or speech, against the hatred. Jack's Ma, bless her, even though she was powerless, was powerful in her love for Jack. It is what made Jack different from Ennis; it is what healed Ennis in his moment of deepest despair, to know that there is love, unconditional compassionate love so strong that it filled their empty souls and heart. Even powerless and voiceless, her love spoke louder than the studduck that spat into a coffee cup.

myprivatejack · « **Reply #57 on:** May 27, 2010, 10:11 AM »

Quote from: lancecowboy on May 26, 2010, 01:14 AM

It's not just "society" in general. It was Ennis's father, specifically, his hatred manifested in, if not the murderous act, the condoning it, by showing it to the brothers.

It's not just the violence and aggression of those actively following a life of hatred, but also the silent ones who stood by doing nothing, either in action or speech, against the hatred. Jack's Ma, bless her, even though she was powerless, was powerful in her love for Jack. It is what made Jack different from Ennis; it is what healed Ennis in his moment of deepest despair, to know that there is love, unconditional compassionate love so strong that it filled their empty souls and heart. Even powerless and voiceless, her love spoke louder than the studduck that spat into a coffee cup.

But Ennis's father was a living proof and,let's say,the "active weapon"of this so close and narrow-minded society that condemned his love for Jack and that made him deny it and hide it even in front of himself.As you say,he dared to do what many others simply allowed with their silence and their misunderstanding;what,IMO,is also a way of showing and teaching hate.I also think that what "marked" and shocked Ennis for life was his father's specific action,but he knew for sure that there was many other "fathers" who would damn and hurt Jack and him,if not with tyres,with their hate,actively as well as passively before others people attacks.In this environment,yes,Jack's Ma was his only support,unluckily for them and their love because it was too late,and luckily because it allowed him to open himself to his world,to his feelings,and accept his love for another man as he never before had done...

mimi · « **Reply #58 on:** May 27, 2010, 06:05 PM »

Quote from: lancecowboy on May 26, 2010, 01:14 AM

It's not just "society" in general. It was Ennis's father, specifically, his hatred manifested in, if not the murderous act, the condoning it, by showing it to the brothers.

It's not just the violence and aggression of those actively following a life of hatred, but also the silent ones who stood by doing nothing, either in action or speech, against the hatred. Jack's Ma, bless her, even though she was powerless, was powerful in her love for Jack. It is what made Jack different from Ennis; it is what healed Ennis in his moment of deepest despair, to know that there is love, unconditional compassionate love so strong that it filled their empty souls and heart. Even powerless and voiceless, her love spoke louder than the studduck that spat into a coffee cup.

True, Ennis's father was a driving force in it, but I think that it's possible that Ennis's father actually represented and embodied the general feelings of the time

lancecowboy · « **Reply #59 on:** May 27, 2010, 07:43 PM »

Quote from: mimi on May 27, 2010, 06:05 PM

True, Ennis's father was a driving force in it, but I think that it's possible that Ennis's father actually represented and embodied the general feelings of the time

There is a difference between the bigotry in society of that time, and the violence that killed Earl. The hatred was more intense than "the general feeling of the time." There is no excuse, at any time, for violence. It is the last resort of a hopeless situation, like war, or self-defense. Bigotry and prejudice can range from a tiny discomfort, through varying degrees of xenophobia.

Bigotry only affects the bigot when it is not expressed. Violence always creates victims, like Ennis when it's internalized, or like Earl.

Society's tacit permission made it okay to express their bigotry, even in violence.