Topic: Anger and Sympathy towards Ennis

[Tony]

Society's tacit permission made it okay to express their bigotry, even in violence.

  It seems to me that Mimi is really holding the general culture of that time, and place, fully accountable, for the violence that warped Ennis' response to his love for Jack. But I kind of think that the homophobia was not overwhelmingly pervasive and intense: there were just cubbyholes of intensity.  Yet Lance's quote above certainly makes, in general, her approach more understandable; even if everyone wasn't a murderer, there did seem to be, as Lance called it, "tacit permission".  We don't read of anybody being arrested for the murder of Earl.
  Given that Ennis was aware of those sporadic cubbyholes of potential violence, and the tacit permission, it might be wrongful to have put on Ennis later, post-liberation frustrations about how he refused to challenge the prevailing culture.  And since he was locked into that locality by his love for his daughters, and further, that it was all he had ever known, it couldn't be "fixed"; and that was, maybe what he was trying to explain to Jack, they had to stand it.
  Of course Jack would happily move away.  He was in the American tradition of always being willing to find a better home. But, sick and toxic as that place and time was on the issue of male love, that was the only home Ennis ever knew.
  We could be angry with Ennis (some have been) but, in truth, converging lines had left him few options.

  Anyway, great posts, Mimi and Lance! And also outstanding, all the very thoughtful and heartfelt posts before them!

[lancecowboy]

  Of course Jack would happily move away.  He was in the American tradition of always being willing to find a better home. But, sick and toxic as that place and time was on the issue of male love, that was the only home Ennis ever knew.
  We could be angry with Ennis (some have been) but, in truth, converging lines had left him few options.

Great post yourself, Tony. Jack the rodeo cowboy willing to move, to follow his dreams. This reminds me of what Jet said during the Amazing Race, that it wasn't much different from what they were used to, traveling from rodeos to rodeos, riding for eight seconds in between the long journeys. Kinda like Jack's driving fourteen hours each way just to get a few high altitude f@#@s a few times each year.

Ennis was the fence post stuck in the same place, never willing to move anywhere, not Riverton, not Texas, going nowhere except around the coffee pot looking for the handle. He didn't have no incentive to move any place, except to look for work, and he didn't want to lose the little that he had, where ever he was.

"...converging lines...few options" the proverbial rock and the hard place. Poor Ennis.  He didn't have anything to move to, until he found Jack's Ma's welcoming arms and comforting hand. Let's face it, even if he knew about the two shirts, understood about Jack's love during the reunion by the river when Jack proposed the sweet life, he'd still be too afraid to ranch up with Jack, anywhere. He didn't know there were people like Jack's Ma, accepting and loving, just the way he was, the way Jack was. The revelation was liberation for Ennis. That's when he moved into his trailer, put down his mailbox, finally he had a place to call home, where he could connect with those he loved, Jack's Ma and his little darlings. Some people saw Ennis in his trailer and felt pity and sad, and rightfully so as described in Annie's short story, but I watch the movie and see the connection between Ennis and Jack's Ma, between Ennis and Junior, and I see a man with his heart open and eyes looking to the future while remembering a precious past.

The book is indeed very sad. The movie has a ray of hope that gives Brokeback Mountain new meaning, new life.

[mimi]

  It seems to me that Mimi is really holding the general culture of that time, and place, fully accountable, for the violence that warped Ennis' response to his love for Jack. But I kind of think that the homophobia was not overwhelmingly pervasive and intense: there were just cubbyholes of intensity.  Yet Lance's quote above certainly makes, in general, her approach more understandable; even if everyone wasn't a murderer, there did seem to be, as Lance called it, "tacit permission".  We don't read of anybody being arrested for the murder of Earl.
  Given that Ennis was aware of those sporadic cubbyholes of potential violence, and the tacit permission, it might be wrongful to have put on Ennis later, post-liberation frustrations about how he refused to challenge the prevailing culture.  And since he was locked into that locality by his love for his daughters, and further, that it was all he had ever known, it couldn't be "fixed"; and that was, maybe what he was trying to explain to Jack, they had to stand it.
  Of course Jack would happily move away.  He was in the American tradition of always being willing to find a better home. But, sick and toxic as that place and time was on the issue of male love, that was the only home Ennis ever knew.
  We could be angry with Ennis (some have been) but, in truth, converging lines had left him few options.

  Anyway, great posts, Mimi and Lance! And also outstanding, all the very thoughtful and heartfelt posts before them!

Thanks Tony, and great point too.

I didnt mean for my post to sound as though i hold society fully accountable for ennis' actions, merely that society's opinions formed the foundations for ennis's attitudes towards homosexuality. However, Ennis's actions were still, of course, his own, and therefore all the decisions he made and their repocussions were his own doing. But we all make mistakes

[lancecowboy]

Yup, knowing that we all make mistakes, that none of us is perfect, that we all have our own peculiarities as a result of our social conditioning, it is well that we do not judge poor Ennis too harshly, instead, following Jack's Ma example, and extend a friendly hand, a comforting hand, a soft touch on the shoulder to let him know that we understand, that we care.

[aintfoolin]

Thanks Tony, and great point too.

I didnt mean for my post to sound as though i hold society fully accountable for ennis' actions, merely that society's opinions formed the foundations for ennis's attitudes towards homosexuality. However, Ennis's actions were still, of course, his own, and therefore all the decisions he made and their repocussions were his own doing. But we all make mistakes

I also think that it was Ennis's father's actions and his hatred  for gays that formed the foundation of Ennis's feelings towards gays. Hate is taught and behavior is learned. Imo it starts at home. Society promotes and tolerates what is already established.  I think Ennis was a little kid   just waiting to be filled with knowledge from the two people who had the first, best  impression on him.  The Parents. Chances are if parents hate, be it along racial lines, or along the lines of sexual orientation, chances are, they will instill that same hatred and prejudice into their children..

Ennis and Jack's fathers were both dominating, strict men and sick with it. Ennis's father even taking his children to view what happens  to the men who dare buck the secret code of society and fall in love with each other. The trauma conditioned him, robbed him of free will.

Somewhere along the line imho, Ennis found out that all he had been taught about two men being in love by his father was wrong, that gay men such as Earl were'nt these evil creatures, undeserving of love and understanding and that daddy Del Mar and his friends chose to hate and even murder, but he also learned  that who you love really is'nt a choice, it just happens....after he met Jack, he wanted to protect him from harm and Earl's horrible fate.
 
Jack (for the most part) and his mother had a big part in showing him that  regardless of anyone's opinions about it, nature takes it's course..
 I think for him to accept  loving Jack was very personal thing  for Ennis, to give of himself, but all the baggage impressed upon him in his young life was never far from him., He felt  keeping his love hidden from society became a matter of survival for him AND Jack in rural Wy. Mo.

[Tony]

I also think that it was Ennis's father's actions and his hatred  for gays that formed the foundation of Ennis's feelings towards gays.

Somewhere along the line imho, Ennis found out that all he had been taught about two men being in love by his father was wrong, that gay men such as Earl were'nt these evil creatures, undeserving of love and understanding and that daddy Del Mar and his friends chose to hate and even murder, but he also learned  that who you love really is'nt a choice, it just happens....after he met Jack, he wanted to protect him from harm and Earl's horrible fate.

  Aintfoolin, you know I always agreed with you about Ennis' character (and usually was just kidding on the question of: "Did Ennis Bottom?").  But there is so much in your post above, that it raises the question of whether Ennis followed his father's hatred for gays, or whether he just avoided the subject, with light prejudices, and no hate. We did not see him approve of the murder of Earl in any way, and he didn't call them queers, but instead said: "They was tough old birds", almost respectfully.
 Your post had insights into either possibility, and I've quoted your post where you weakened an apparent judgment (if I read it correctly) that he did share, accept, or agree with, even if if passively, the hatred his father had had.
  I honestly believe this is a territory not explored yet, for discussion, and deserves its own thread, as pursuing it here would be, I suspect, way off-topic.  But am not up to starting one, and only hope that you, or someone else would, so we could bat things around some.  I think you did well, but this subject would have at least two approaches, and within your post was the groundwork for both.
 AF, I haven't seen this pursued coherently anywhere, and I thank you for touching on it, even if that was not your intent.  Again, I do hope someone starts a new thread, maybe: "Did Ennis share his father's hate?"  IMO, it's worth some serious exploration and back-and-forth.

[jackster]

Both you fellas' have some very insightful comments here (as usual) and sure could be a topic of it's own, - hard to imagine it's not been covered somewhere else, but I can't find it
.

Personally, I feel this is one of the prime tenants of the film, Ennis's working his way through (and abandoning) these inherited emotions over twenty years. From his "I'm not no queer" to his loving embrace (and worship) of another man's shirt twenty years later.

[mimi]

Both you fellas' have some very insightful comments here (as usual) and sure could be a topic of it's own, - hard to imagine it's not been covered somewhere else, but I can't find it
.

Personally, I feel this is one of the prime tenants of the film, Ennis's working his way through (and abandoning) these inherited emotions over twenty years. From his "I'm not no queer" to his loving embrace (and worship) of another man's shirt twenty years later.

Excellent point Jackster, and I think you've really just hit the nail on the head: the story is all about Ennis's journey through life and how he handles the events, some which he cannot control, others which he creates himself. The film is about his evolution, if you like, how he grows and changes over the years with Jack, and how he becomes the broken lonely man at the end of the movie, in a small trailer with nothing but two shirts and a postcard...

[myprivatejack]

For me,the point is not feeling anger or sympathy towards Ennis,but trying to understand him and understand his reasons.Since he's the most complex and evolutioned character in the movie-slightly less in the s.s.-,this understanding demands a greater effort on the part of the viewer.Mimi has described very well in her post above:...the story is all about Ennis's journey through life and how he handles the events, some which he cannot control, others which he creates himself. The film is about his evolution, if you like, how he grows and changes over the years with Jack....Exactly ¡ I think the story is seen and told from Ennis point of view,or at least,putting him as the real protagonist:remarking about all his great inner struggle with and against himself.You can,then,feel more or less empathy with the way he manages this struggle,but the truth is that the real struggle than,in this case,we have to handle is to put us in his shoes.And I'm afraid is not always easy...     

[lancecowboy]

It is interesting how this thread, and Was Ennis Gay, have converged to the same topic, on how Ennis shared in his Pa's homophobia. As discussed in that other thread, it appears that Ennis developed a different level of homophobia that is more aversion that hatred.

On another note, it is interesting to think that Annie set out originally to write the story of these two gay cowboys, inspired by the old cowboy yearning after the young cowboys in a bar, and ended up inspiring Diana Oksanna to write a story of the evolution of a homophobic gay man, and gave Heath the opportunity to give the performance of a life time, creating the one and only Ennis whose story touched us so deeply, that in part, IMO, carried us with him on that journey, and made our society a more accepting place. 

[mimi]

good point. Brokeback has touched so many people and swayed their opinions in such a positive way. I feel indebted to all those involved; heath, jake, ang, dianna, etc. for opening certain people's eyes and bringing such beauty into my and their lives

[myprivatejack]

It is interesting how this thread, and Was Ennis Gay, have converged to the same topic, on how Ennis shared in his Pa's homophobia. As discussed in that other thread, it appears that Ennis developed a different level of homophobia that is more aversion that hatred.
On another note, it is interesting to think that Annie set out originally to write the story of these two gay cowboys, inspired by the old cowboy yearning after the young cowboys in a bar, and ended up inspiring Diana Oksanna to write a story of the evolution of a homophobic gay man, and gave Heath the opportunity to give the performance of a life time, creating the one and only Ennis whose story touched us so deeply, that in part, IMO, carried us with him on that journey, and made our society a more accepting place. 

I think that if both threads converge is for a logical reason;in "Was Ennis gay?" because we analyse the influence his father's homophobia could have in Ennis own and,even,in his later attraction for another man.And in this one-at least,in my own case-,because we are trying to understand his reasons more than simply feeling some sympathy or aversion towards him.And it's sure than his father's behaviour-and homophobia- had a lot to do with the boy's and the feelings that this way of being we could have towards him.

[Forever]

I think that Ennis was totally captured by love for Jack but he didnt have dialectic capability to understand what it happened to him and enought force to win his fears;  Im thinking to the scene whene he vomiting and crie at the same time after leaving Jack... a classical somatization; It seems that Ennis was  in love much more than Jack.Ennis upsets his life while Jack is able to organize it.  Jack had capability to find other relations and seems to more tolerate to be with other mans; following his passions Jack was more exposed to social prejudgement and that will carry him to death for assassination! By this way paradoxically he didnt protect his relation with Ennis and removed maybe the only possibility for Ennis to found love in his live.
Finally I think Ennis was the victim of the story, of himself and of his society
I love very  much Ennis.
Coguaro

I don't think that Jack was less in love than Ennis, and If Jack Had other men in his life, it's rightly because he couldn't be with his lover permanently, and this choice was not his but Ennis's choice. After the divorce scene when Jack realized that he will never have the sweet life he craved for, he went to Mexico like a dead man, he was completly broken inside. That's not a surprise that Jack became reckless at the end, his life had no meaning anymore, a life without Ennis was not a life anymore. Jack became through the years more and more psychologically dead inside, and it's like at the end he called the physical death unconsciously to relieve his unbearable pain. Jack is for me much more the victim than Ennis. In fact, Ennis had all the cards in hands, and unfortunatly for Jack, he made the wrong choices: he denied first his true-self, he refused to live a happy life with the love of his life. In a way, Ennis killed Jack, psychologicaly speaking, denying the sweet life proposal. The consequences of the wrong choices of Ennis were fatal for both of them. Jack got killed without Ennis by his side, without his protection, and Ennis ended his life as a miserable soul full of regrets!  

[Forever]

It's a pity that English is not my mother language, I would have loved to reply more, to put new ideas, to put some nuances in my ideas, but I cannot! I would have loved to be here 6 years ago when this wonderful place were created, where 898 brokies souls were here communicated non- stop about Ennis & Jack. Since 6 years every aspect of the film had been covered, every details had been discussed, I have now this extreme anguish that this thread is almost dead, no let put some nuance that all the thread could be archived! Sorry I know I'm totally  

[lancecowboy]

I don't think that Jack was less in love than Ennis, and If Jack Had other men in his life, it's rightly because he couldn't be with his lover permanently, and this choice was not his but Ennis's choice. After the divorce scene when Jack realized that he will never have the sweet life he craved for, he went to Mexico like a dead man, he was completly broken inside. That's not a surprise that Jack became reckless at the end, his life had no meaning anymore, a life without Ennis was not a life anymore. Jack became through the years more and more psychologically dead inside, and it's like at the end he called the physical death unconsciously to relieve his unbearable pain. Jack is for me much more the victim than Ennis. In fact, Ennis had all the cards in hands, and unfortunatly for Jack, he made the wrong choices: he denied first his true-self, he refused to live a happy life with the love of his life. In a way, Ennis killed Jack, psychologicaly speaking, denying the sweet life proposal. The consequences of the wrong choices of Ennis were fatal for both of them. Jack got killed without Ennis by his side, without his protection, and Ennis ended his life as a miserable soul full of regrets!  

Goodness, Forever, if your command of English is any better, you'd really blow us out of the water with your insight and comments.  

Your verdict is harsh but true. The pain and regret for Ennis come from a deeper place, not just the missed opportunities, the death of a future sweet life that will never be, but more poignantly as you pointed out, he felt responsible for the many times he denied Jack that sweet life. Those many flashbacks to the riverside, to the final confrontation, to the just thinking out loud, to... Whatever the physical cause of death, Ennis felt responsible for the psychological death of the Jack he knew and loved, but evolved over twenty years into the bitter lonely reckless man he left standing after the final confrontation, probably in tears. He grieved in the closet for the lively funny man he sucker punched back on that mountain twenty years ago.

This reminds me of the unrequited love from a recent movie I saw, 500 days of Summer...a great film if you get a chance to watch it. Unrequited love, especially when it started with mutual passion, like with Ennis and Jack, is painful beyond words. It is as you described, the psychological death of the one whose love is unrequited. It makes the lesson more important, to be honest and up front with potential lovers and not leading them on. Imagine if Ennis refused at SNIT. There would be no heartache, no Brokeback Mountain. Imagine if Ennis refused to answer the postcard. Instead of sending "You bet " sending "Okay, my wife and I will have dinner with you."  Imagine, if there were never no reunion kiss.  

Perhaps the scene after the divorce was Ennis's way of telling Jack off. Yet, he could never say no, not completely, so Jack hung on for twenty years, dying a little every year.  

Brokeback Mountain...the love with so many faces, phases.