Author Topic: The Significance of Mexico (Read 52124 times)

forbiddenlovers · « **on:** Apr 11, 2006, 08:15 AM »

Hi!!

So, on to my next question. The significance of Mexico?

Did Jack go there because he longed for the touch of Ennis and that wasn't happening because Ennis had the girls. You know, as if to say "I want Ennis, but since I can't have that right now, I've got to have my fix, so I'm going to Mexico." Or do you think it's more deep than that. As if he longed for Ennis so bad and had it in his mind that they were going to be together now that the divorce was final. When Ennis couldn't get away, Jack had so much frustration, pent up and otherwise, that he needed his release and he would find a substitute for Ennis in Mexico.

My opinion is that Jack needed Ennis, bad. And if he couldn't have him, he needed to feel something with another man, to at least fulfull his desire to be with Ennis.

Any thoughts on this one?

Ann

bram · « **Reply #1 on:** Apr 11, 2006, 08:22 AM »

Quote from: forbiddenlovers on Apr 11, 2006, 08:15 AM

My opinion is that Jack needed Ennis, bad. And if he couldn't have him, he needed to feel something with another man, to at least fulfull his desire to be with Ennis.

That's what I thought when I watched it.

forbiddenlovers · « **Reply #2 on:** Apr 11, 2006, 08:24 AM »

Cool, so maybe I'm not crazy??? lol

:D

bram · « **Reply #3 on:** Apr 11, 2006, 08:27 AM »

Quote from: forbiddenlovers on Apr 11, 2006, 08:24 AM

Cool, so maybe I'm not crazy??? lol

:D

At least not because of your veiws on Brokeback Mountain.

tpe · « **Reply #4 on:** Apr 11, 2006, 08:33 AM »

I think Jack's weakness at this point is quite universal. It really tells you a lot about the human condition.

I repost a poem by Cavafy that seems to express the same emotional sentiment. We, being all too human, should indeed not be too quick to condemn Jack at this point.

I wallow in the tavernas and brothels of Beirut.
I didn't want to stay
in Alexandria. Tamides left me;
he went off with the Prefect's son to earn himself
a villa on the Nile, a mansion in the city.
It wouldn't have been right for me to stay in Alexandria.
I wallow in the tavernas and brothels of Beirut.
I live a vile life, devoted to cheap debauchery.
The one thing that saves me,
like durable beauty, like perfume
that goes on clinging to my flesh, is this: Tamides,
most exquisite of young men, was mine for two years,
and mine not for a house or a villa on the Nile.

- C. Cavafy

I hope you get the emotional correspondence here...

ethan · « **Reply #5 on:** Apr 11, 2006, 08:35 AM »

To me, it was not the first time that Jack went to Mexico. He seemed to know where he was heading and to find boys like him.

In addition to his frastration and need to be another man, I thought this scene also gave a clear evidence that Jack is attracted to guys or gay if you will.

I also thought Jack probably told Lureen that he would be in Wyoming for a few days - but who would have thought Ennis sent him away. :'( :'( :'(

Valandil Eluch · « **Reply #6 on:** Apr 11, 2006, 09:27 AM »

Good point that it really show the difference between to Jack and Ennis, mexico was not an option for Ennis and to Jack it was his way out to get everything the was unable to get from Ennis i wonder how many times he had go there in their 20 years of being together since he said he was unabe to stand hight altitude f*cks once or twice a year. but Mexico would mean actually that the truth was that Jack was gay and attracted to other men rathern than Ennis

forbiddenlovers · « **Reply #7 on:** Apr 11, 2006, 09:38 AM »

I thought that too. But I was afraid to comment about Jack being gay, I didn't want to offend anyone. But that's what I thought on a deeper level. That there was a huge possibility that Jack was in fact gay and was looking for his contact with another man. Since he couldn't get it with Ennis, he got it somewhere else. Although, I'm positive the experience with the man in Mexico paled in comparison to his sharing the same intimacy with Ennis.

You know, I'm so dilly, when I first watched the movie, I had no clue what Jack was doing in Mexico. Even when Ennis told Jack that going to Mexico could get him killed if he knew of these things, I still didn't put two and two together. Well, I put two and two together and got five, cuz I was still lost, lol. But after thinking about the movie after I watched it through the first time, I realized what was going on.

Ann

bram · « **Reply #8 on:** Apr 11, 2006, 09:41 AM »

I always thought that Jack was gay, not Ennis, though.

As for if he had been to Mexico before the divorce, I don't know. He wouldn't have had to known where the town was or anything. It's common knowledge that border towns are a great place to go for almost anything that's illegal in the US. I don't think he would have had trouble finding what he needed at night in a border town.

OT- This post #420 for me...

... I am easily amused...

Valandil Eluch · « **Reply #9 on:** Apr 11, 2006, 10:07 AM »

We can't hide the fact, i don't want to offend anyone either but one thing is that mexico is the link that between Jack and his hommosexuality because then why to go there he just wanted sex, to be honest the first time i saw the movie that scene made me doubt his feelings for Ennis i thought that to him i was only sex (i know it sounds stupid) and since ennis didn't gave him that he went to mexico.

forbiddenlovers · « **Reply #10 on:** Apr 11, 2006, 10:17 AM »

Carlos, not stupid at all, because I thought the same thing when I first realized what he was doing in Mexico. Then I changed my thinking a bit because I thought he hungered so bad for Ennis and he NEEDED to do something or he was going to go crazy. It wasn't being with a man he wanted, it was being with Ennis, and his heart was broken when he couldn't be with him that weekend, he needed to find another man to fill the void. But, at that point, I also kind of realized that Jack was gay and that this wasn't something just between him and Ennis. I still wonder though, at the end of the movie when Jack's father mentioned Jack coming to the ranch with another man, had Jack moved on? Or did Jack simply realize that he and Ennis would never work and that Jack would try to recreate what he and Ennis could have had and did have a portion of, with another man??

Valandil Eluch · « **Reply #11 on:** Apr 11, 2006, 10:35 AM »

there it is the big question that would make our head explode to look for an answer in the short story annie never made reference to mexico until jack's final days and then his father mention that. i am always heart broken on that point i feel upset and mad with Jack i mean he didn't fight enough for Ennis and he dicided to quit him. that was not fair at least he could have had the guts to tell ennis which he didn't so unfair for Ennis and then i think that he could have never do it because he love him. but i ask this later how could you love somebody if you are allways being unfaithful to that person that is not love ... and here is where my mind start getting crazy i know he loves him but his actions shows something different or i am to old fashion!

bram · « **Reply #12 on:** Apr 11, 2006, 10:42 AM »

I think he loved him, and you can love someone and still be unfaithful. It's not like he wasn't trying to stay with Ennis. They were just two very different people, and Jack got tired of having to settle on having Ennis for such a tiny part of his life. I feel for him, I really do.

It's hard to say what anyone would do in his position. You don't know unless you've been there.

Valandil Eluch · « **Reply #13 on:** Apr 11, 2006, 10:48 AM »

i know that bram and that's what kill me i haven't being in that position and don't know what i would do but like i say i was a total mess on that point he love him, he don't love him where what i was thinking and i was unable to find and answer

Stephen · « **Reply #14 on:** Apr 11, 2006, 01:03 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Apr 11, 2006, 08:33 AM

I think Jack's weakness at this point is quite universal. It really tells you a lot about the human condition.

I repost a poem by Cavafy that seems to express the same emotional sentiment. We, being all too human, should indeed not be too quick to condemn Jack at this point.

I wallow in the tavernas and brothels of Beirut.
I didn't want to stay
in Alexandria. Tamides left me;
he went off with the Prefect's son to earn himself
a villa on the Nile, a mansion in the city.
It wouldn't have been right for me to stay in Alexandria.
I wallow in the tavernas and brothels of Beirut.
I live a vile life, devoted to cheap debauchery.
The one thing that saves me,
like durable beauty, like perfume
that goes on clinging to my flesh, is this: Tamides,
most exquisite of young men, was mine for two years,
and mine not for a house or a villa on the Nile.

- C. Cavafy

I hope you get the emotional correspondence here...

Thank you, Tpe, for that beautifu Kavafy poem! I have his poetry in both Greek and English and was steeped in it during my college days......yes, as you say, it's a part of this inexorable human condition......

Mars · « **Reply #15 on:** Apr 11, 2006, 01:21 PM »

Jack was desperately looking for someone to relieve his phisycal urges and personal distress.
Sex is often considered a remedy against depression. It's human, too human

Valandil Eluch · « **Reply #16 on:** Apr 11, 2006, 01:36 PM »

Quote from: Mars on Apr 11, 2006, 01:21 PM

Jack was desperately looking for someone to relieve his phisycal urges and personal distress.
Sex is often considered a remedy against depression. It's human, too human

well you have a good point there mars thanks that cleared a lot my mind

tpe · « **Reply #17 on:** Apr 11, 2006, 02:21 PM »

Quote from: Stephen on Apr 11, 2006, 01:03 PM

Thank you, Tpe, for that beautifu Kavafy poem! I have his poetry in both Greek and English and was steeped in it during my college days......yes, as you say, it's a part of this inexorable human condition......

Stephen, I am moved that the Poet speaks so deeply to you also. When I first saw Jack going to Juarez, this Kavafy poem instantly came to my mind. I don't know why. Just by emotional association of Jack being rejected and needing some kind of solace, which is what the poem is all about...

But the key to the poem is this: no matter what debauchery, no matter what sordidness, HE CANNOT FORGET, HE WILL NEVER FORGET, HE WILL BE HIS ALWAYS.

Thanks for understanding.

Allan · « **Reply #18 on:** Apr 11, 2006, 02:40 PM »

I've mentioned this in another thread, but I'll say it here, too. Ennis and Jack are both Gay. There are many indicators in the story to support this... however, Ennis does not want to admit his homosexuality, even to himself... and Heath plays it that way, making Ennis' sexual orientation less apparent in the movie. Ennis is sexually monogamous. Jack is not. There is no "Mexico" for Ennis. He is sexually atttacted to, and passionately in love with Jack, and only Jack. When Jack goes to "Mexico," figuratively or literally, he's seeking physicality, not a love interest. His love bond with Ennis is eternal. They are "the eternal couple." Sadly, I think that the Mexico trips are also a way of "getting back" at Ennis for not setting up ranch-keeping with him, not keeping physically closer to him... something that Jack is not at all proud of. I am (or was) a kind of "Jack," and I understand those behaviors very well. Allan

forbiddenlovers · « **Reply #19 on:** Apr 11, 2006, 02:42 PM »

Quote from: Mars on Apr 11, 2006, 01:21 PM

Jack was desperately looking for someone to relieve his phisycal urges and personal distress.
Sex is often considered a remedy against depression. It's human, too human

Isn't that the truth. It's a pick me up, if you will. Jack was clearly upset. He was so happy on his way to see Ennis. He was singing in the truck, his mood upbeat. When he leaves, you see him crying in the truck to that depressing song and you know he just needs something, ANYthing to make the pain go away!

coguaro · « **Reply #20 on:** Apr 11, 2006, 05:07 PM »

Jack going in Mexico of course follows his sexual needs.. it's human.
I saw a difference anyway in the sex scenes on Brokeback mountain (above all reading the short story) and the Mexico one.
The sex between Ennis and Jack on BBM happens on the sun light, on the open air (read on short story) while the Jack approach with Mexican young man happens in the darkness (remember the scene in which Jack and the man in Mexico dissolve in the dusk of the night..). That's light/night, clear/dusk contrast symbolize the difference between making love and doing sex... without love .... I guess

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #21 on:** Apr 11, 2006, 05:24 PM »

Quote from: Mars on Apr 11, 2006, 01:21 PM

Jack was desperately looking for someone to relieve his phisycal urges and personal distress.
Sex is often considered a remedy against depression. It's human, too human

Yes it is "too human". I feel bad for Jack in that scene because he doesn't look happy to be there- almost disgusted that this is what he as to do to meet his needs. He drove all the way to Wyoming hoping/thinking that this is it- Ennis is free and then he's sent away.

BBBOY · « **Reply #22 on:** Apr 11, 2006, 05:30 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Apr 11, 2006, 02:21 PM

Quote from: Stephen on Apr 11, 2006, 01:03 PM
Thank you, Tpe, for that beautifu Kavafy poem! I have his poetry in both Greek and English and was steeped in it during my college days......yes, as you say, it's a part of this inexorable human condition......

Stephen, I am moved that the Poet speaks so deeply to you also. When I first saw Jack going to Juarez, this Kavafy poem instantly came to my mind. I don't know why. Just by emotional association of Jack being rejected and needing some kind of solace, which is what the poem is all about...

But the key to the poem is this: no matter what debauchery, no matter what sordidness, HE CANNOT FORGET, HE WILL NEVER FORGET, HE WILL BE HIS ALWAYS.

Thanks for understanding.

I am unfamiliar with this poet but the posted poem touched me deeply and your interpretation of it tpe hits me where it hurts. Thanks.

tpe · « **Reply #23 on:** Apr 11, 2006, 05:37 PM »

Thank you also, BBBOY. As was discussed by the other posters, it's all so human. As human beings, we cannot but look with some sympathy -- anyone who has loved and has been rejected will understand the void that is seemingly never filled. We try to fill it with anything, and we realize that as much as we put in to fill in the void, we only end up inflaming that love all the more deep inside.

Mars · « **Reply #24 on:** Apr 12, 2006, 08:35 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Apr 11, 2006, 05:37 PM

Thank you also, BBBOY. As was discussed by the other posters, it's all so human. As human beings, we cannot but look with some sympathy -- anyone who has loved and has been rejected will understand the void that is seemingly never filled. We try to fill it with anything, and we realize that as much as we put in to fill in the void, we only end up inflaming that love all the more deep inside.

Golden words, Tpe

It's the human condition,no other thoughts....

tpe · « **Reply #25 on:** Apr 12, 2006, 08:40 AM »

Mars, I really felt for Jack in this scene in Juarez. It is painful to see him settle for a prostitute when he couldn't get what he wanted. It wasn't just lust. Anyone who has been rejected at least once in life will know what I mean. You need something to forget. You need something cheap and sordid to mask out the need for the unattainable and the sublime.

Mars · « **Reply #26 on:** Apr 12, 2006, 08:42 AM »

Yes Tpe, it's sadly true... :'(

Valandil Eluch · « **Reply #27 on:** Apr 12, 2006, 02:04 PM »

:'( :'( it is true i know what you mean

Patriot1 · « **Reply #28 on:** Apr 21, 2006, 04:31 PM »

THE FOLLOWING QUOTE WAS MOVED FROM ANOTHER THREAD BECAUSE TO ANSWER THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN OFF TOPIC.

Quote from: TJ on Apr 21, 2006, 04:15 PM

Now in retrospect, I feel a little pain right now because that was what was playing on the radio in Jack's truck when he left Ennis behind and had made the trip up to Wyoming for nothing. (Sort of OT here, I was upset by the movie because instead of Jack going on up to Lightning Flat or back to Childress, Texas, they had Jack high-tail it to El Paso, Texas to cross the border and have sex with a Mexican. I really don't think that the book version of Jack ever went to Mexico in the first place.

I agree with you TJ. There are two scenes in the movie I have never (from the second time on) been able to watch. The first (and most important) is Jack's death. The second one is his trip to Mexico. I absolutely did not like the screenwriters suggesting that the only reason Jack went to Ennis' after the divorce was for sex. If it wasn't just for sex why did he have the need to go to Mexico? He could have gone to his parent's home or like you said back home to Childress. He wouldn't have needed to go to Mexico for a prostitute.

NoReins · « **Reply #29 on:** Apr 21, 2006, 04:46 PM »

There's no way Jack only went to Ennis after the divorce for sex - he genuinely believed that this was their chance to set up ranch together - but when Ennis rejectd him again, his devastation led him to seek an outlet for his frustration (and I don't just mean sexual frustration). I think there would also have been some thought of "getting back" at Ennis by going with a prostitute - even though Ennis would never (or at least, not until much later) know about it.

I guess when you're mad at someone the most obvious thing to do for revenge is the one thing you know they'd really, really disapprove of.