Topic: sitting on the mountain together

[shieldmaid]

When I think about this scene, too, speaking of economy, I always remember how many of the actors (I remember Heath Ledger and Michelle Williams saying this, at least) commented on Ang Lee's minimalist style of directing.  He would point in the direction they should be looking, or look into their faces.  Heath and Jake really seem to have internalized that approach in this scene, when they let facial tensions, elongated silences, carefully spaced words, and all-that-could-be-but-isn't-said hanging in the air between them do the work instead. . . .

[tpe]

When I think about this scene, too, speaking of economy, I always remember how many of the actors (I remember Heath Ledger and Michelle Williams saying this, at least) commented on Ang Lee's minimalist style of directing.  He would point in the direction they should be looking, or look into their faces.  Heath and Jake really seem to have internalized that approach in this scene, when they let facial tensions, elongated silences, carefully spaced words, and all-that-could-be-but-isn't-said hanging in the air between them do the work instead. . . .

Thanks shieldmaid for brining this up.  Jake apparently hated Ang Lee's approach, at least initially.  He probably didn't realize then what a service this was to him, Heath, Michelle, and Anne.

In making them grapple with interpretation, each of them came to his/her own.  The scene in the mountain is a clear testament to this.

[ksxks]

Jack's heart must have been going ninety to the dozen when Ennis started to speak....

Oh, definitely. They've been thinking about it all day, rolling what happened over and over again in their heads... I think Jack was very aware of his feelings by this point, he knew what he wanted while Ennis was still confused and in denial. As I wrote elsewhere, I think that when he told Jack it was a one shot thing and that he wasn't queer, he was more trying to convince himself of that. And Jack looked... I can't find the words to describe what he looked like just before Ennis began to speak. he glanced at him and he looked... anxious? nervous? hopefull? I don't know. you can actually FEEL the tension in the air, this whole scene is so loaded. and I love the shot of them from behind, sitting next to each other - that's the wallpaper on my desktop... 

I'm late to this discussion, but I love what everyone has said about this scene; and keren you paint the picture beautifully.

So, it seems Jack came up there, waited up on the hill until Ennis was finished with the sheep (maybe they rode back down to camp together).  I find it interesting that it was Ennis who spoke first.  He acknowledged what had happened the night before; and he didn't say it was a one-shot thing we had [last night], but a one-shot thing we've got going on here, indicating that wasn't the end of it.

And Jack, yes he was nervous, and that is also apparent in his heavy breathing.  He does that a few times, it seems, though I can't remember where else just now.  His chest rising and falling -- he does that really good.  His response is in the same vein as Ennis's, kind of trying to make it not a huge deal maybe.  And since it's nobody's business but ours, we can keep doing it.

But the "I ain't queer" thing -- I think Ennis said that because he hadn't had any queer experiences yet, before with Jack, regardless of if he'd ever felt he actually was "different" when growing up.  (But of course he somehow at least knew about it or thought about it because no instruction manual was needed.  He was no innocent.

But Jack's saying he wasn't queer either -- just a prevarication, though I don't like the idea of Jack doing that, lying more or less.  He would say that to make Ennis feel more comfortable being with him?  The old thing of straight men who have sex with other men but say they're not gay -- and that's a whole other discussion.

kathy

[ksxks]

This is one of my favourite scenes.  It is getting darkish, so I have presumed that Jack waited all day, and then couldn't wait any more, so went up the mountain to see if he could fix things.   In terms of body language, watch the rifle in Ennis's hand.  As soon as he moved it to his other side, I knew the thing between them was bigger than he(Ennis) could ever deal with, and that their relationship would continue.  I knew things would be 'ok'. 

Ouch .. goose bumps again!  Ellyjay, now I'm going to have to look at that scene AGAIN to see that gesture of moving the rifle from one hand to the other.  Do you mean he moves it to open up room to be closer to Jack, with less between them??  That is so great, another dimension to a scene already full of body language.  Thank you for that.

Yeah, he does position himself a little closer before he sits down, doesn't he?

kathy

[ksxks]

Wow--I'm awed by everyone's responses.  I *knew* there were a lot of reasons why I love this scene!  The shifting of the rifle from hand to hand, the music, the fact that Ennis has to speak first, Jack's sigh--all these things both heighten the tension between them and let us know, as ellyjay said, that everything is going to be OK.  I really like your idea, too, Aimi, that this is another instance in which Ennis protects Jack.  Jack's afraid--of losing Ennis's friendship, of not having his love returned, of being rejected in a more final way--but Ennis ultimately reassures him.  I also LOVE the fact that SNIT follows immediately, without any other transition.  Just as Jack knew he had to wait for Ennis to speak first--now he has to wait for Ennis to come to him and show his love physically.

must go watch again . . . .

Well said -- all the elements of this simple yet richly complex scene.  I love the idea of Ennis protecting Jack.  I like this specifically because I'm more aware of the ways in which Jack is always comforting Ennis:  when Ennis got busted up because of the bear; during the fight in leaving-early scene, and of course in the confrontation scene.   But there's protecting, and there's comforting.  The dynamics between them, certainly here at the beginning, are quite fascinating.  They don't know who they are to each other yet, though they sure know they've gotten to be good buds...and now getting hot for each other's bods.

This is kind of a train-of-thought thing I got going here, so thank you for indulging me.

I tend to think Ennis was rather emotionally inept, but this interpretation has me seing it a little differently.  That he would realize what was called for here, in a situation he's certainly never been in before.  He feels really strongly already for Jack, or else he might revert to his more usual ways and like beat the crap out of a guy who would dare to make him want to f**k him (!)  He has more emotional smarts than apparent.

Then, SNIT, the way he goes in there so uncertain, and it's Jack who takes the lead...

Oh it's a bit much for me this late at night.  I could think on this for the rest of my days.  I'm glad I don't have it all figured out, because then I get to keep trying to figure it out -- watch some more, think some more, post some more, read your posts some more...

kathy

[ksxks]

Christie and Edgar, those are both good responses. In reply to edgar, I consider the waitress and the wife to be lies, too.

Jack seemed to make himself to be equal with Ennis in many situations.

In the last movie scene together when Ennis says, "boys like you," he is one of those boys himself but refuses to admit it. In the book, Ennis says no such thing.

And when Jack says, "fellas like us go to hell," Ennis denies he's the same as Jack there, too.

kathy

[ksxks]

I also find it interesting that Ennis on his return, never mentions to Jack the dead sheep. With all the emotions that must have been bubbling inside him he doesn't use this as a tool with which to reproach Jack - 'this is the consequence of what we did'. Instead hes straight to the point with their relationship - he must have known this was all Jack was interesting in hearing about at that moment, and doesn't lay his own guilt regarding the sheep at Jack's door.

Maybe i'm reading more into this than what is there but i keep finding examples of Ennis protecting and 'looking after' Jack and it makes me appreciate his character more and more.

They protect each other.  Jack never told Ennis that Aguirre saw them making out.  Jack knew that Ennis would have flipped out.

Yes -- now that it keeps being pointed out, I see this is so true, their protecting each other, protecting their love from that nasty outside world...

kathy

[amtamburo]

And Jack, yes he was nervous, and that is also apparent in his heavy breathing.  He does that a few times, it seems, though I can't remember where else just now.  His chest rising and falling -- he does that really good.

We this again at the beginning of the SNIT, when Jack is laying in the tent and we see Ennis approaching outside the tent, Jack is breathing hard and looking a bit nervous, perhaps wondering if Ennis would change his mind and go to the sheep instead of coming to him.

[shieldmaid]

And Jack, yes he was nervous, and that is also apparent in his heavy breathing.  He does that a few times, it seems, though I can't remember where else just now.  His chest rising and falling -- he does that really good.

We this again at the beginning of the SNIT, when Jack is laying in the tent and we see Ennis approaching outside the tent, Jack is breathing hard and looking a bit nervous, perhaps wondering if Ennis would change his mind and go to the sheep instead of coming to him.

That's another great parallel between these scenes (the mountain conversation and SNIT)--Jack breathes heavily and Ennis comes to him.  Again, as in the post-bear scene as well, we see Jack feeling anxious and Ennis reassuring him in some way.  Jack's heart is there on his sleeve; Ennis shows his emotions more reluctantly but also can't help himself.

[tpe]

It is interesting that when they start exchanging words, you really don't catch a glimpse of Ennis's face, while you see Jack's in profile.  Jack's eyes are narrowed-out, as if he is trying to see something way in the distance.  With Ennis, you see to get the impression that he also gazes out into the distance, even though you don't really get to see his face...

[welshwitch]

Too difficult to look at each other at this point? In fact Ennis rode away that morning barely having acknowledged Jack, much less met his eyes. Neiterh knows how the other will react, and by staringout into space they make it easier on each other. Looking into someone's eyes, as they do on SNIT can be both challenging and intimate, and they're not yet secure enough of each other to be either.

[tpe]

Too difficult to look at each other at this point? In fact Ennis rode away that morning barely having acknowledged Jack, much less met his eyes. Neiterh knows how the other will react, and by staringout into space they make it easier on each other. Looking into someone's eyes, as they do on SNIT can be both challenging and intimate, and they're not yet secure enough of each other to be either.

Yes, I have wondered whether the screenplay was altered a bit here.  IN the screenplay, Ennis says something like "Yeah" to answer Jack before he rides off in the morning.  That scene, as enacted in the movie, does not seem to contain this affirmation.  It is very powerful.  It leaves us wondering what is going to happen next.  We see Ennis sigh at the sight of the dead sheep.  We see Jack shiver by the river.  It prepares us to expect that they do not want to look at each other when they finally meet...

 

[shieldmaid]

Too difficult to look at each other at this point? In fact Ennis rode away that morning barely having acknowledged Jack, much less met his eyes. Neiterh knows how the other will react, and by staringout into space they make it easier on each other. Looking into someone's eyes, as they do on SNIT can be both challenging and intimate, and they're not yet secure enough of each other to be either.

Yes, I have wondered whether the screenplay was altered a bit here.  IN the screenplay, Ennis says something like "Yeah" to answer Jack before he rides off in the morning.  That scene, as enacted in the movie, does not seem to contain this affirmation.  It is very powerful.  It leaves us wondering what is going to happen next.  We see Ennis sigh at the sight of the dead sheep.  We see Jack shiver by the river.  It prepares us to expect that they do not want to look at each other when they finally meet...

 

So true . . . they spend the intervening hours gathering the courage to speak again, to touch one another and finally look into one another's eyes during SNIT.  I love the way, too, speaking of parallels, that Jack is lying down here, waiting for Ennis to come and speak to him, just as he's lying in the tent waiting (or just hoping?) for Ennis to come to him later on.

[tpe]

So true . . . they spend the intervening hours gathering the courage to speak again, to touch one another and finally look into one another's eyes during SNIT.  I love the way, too, speaking of parallels, that Jack is lying down here, waiting for Ennis to come and speak to him, just as he's lying in the tent waiting (or just hoping?) for Ennis to come to him later on.

 Come, O come, my life's delight!
 Let me not in languor pine:
 Love loves no delay, thy sight
 The more enjoyed, the more divine.
 O come, and take from me
 The pain of being deprived of thee.

(Thomas Campion -- might as well be Jack Twist)

[shieldmaid]

 Come, O come, my life's delight!
 Let me not in languor pine:
 Love loves no delay, thy sight
 The more enjoyed, the more divine.
 O come, and take from me
 The pain of being deprived of thee.

(Thomas Campion -- might as well be Jack Twist)


Beautiful, tpe.  Thank you.   

[tpe]

 Come, O come, my life's delight!
 Let me not in languor pine:
 Love loves no delay, thy sight
 The more enjoyed, the more divine.
 O come, and take from me
 The pain of being deprived of thee.

(Thomas Campion -- might as well be Jack Twist)

Beautiful, tpe.  Thank you.   

You're welcome.  SNIT is visual poetry.  It is a restrained love scene.  The fact that 2 men are kissing passionately does not make it any less restrained...   Perhaps it is BECAUSE we see 2 men kissing passionately that it takes on a classical restraint not known or seen for so long...

Sorry, a bit OOT again here. 

[ksxks]

Yes, in the scene by the truck when Ennis makes the comment about the shirt, I absolutely knew Jack had taken it. Didn't know they would book-end it so amazingly though! As to the scene on the mountain, I'm just so impressed by how much emotion these guys are able to show us While in Profile! More than most actors in a front-view closeup. Beautiful!

Yes, the more I think about it, the more I'm impressed that Ang Lee chose to shoot this scene in this way.  It really tells us a lot about their relationship to one another: they can't yet face each other (or their growing love for one another), and they certainly can't make it public (as perhaps facing the camera would suggest), so they sit side-by-side, backs to the camera, barely able to look at one another.  They don't touch and speak only 25 words total.  Yet we understand--and share--the tension of their unexpressed longing.  As the sun goes down across from their mountain, so their attraction for one another grows.

Oh, you're so right!  This is beautiful, and I hadn't really thought of this.  Not only their dynamics, spare words, body language, but the way it was shot, says precisely how things stood between them.  Awesome, Mr. Lee; awesome, Messrs. Ledger and Gyllenhaal.  Every tiniest movement and silence is so full of expression here in this scene.

kathy

[ksxks]

The promotional picture is so fascinating because they're not sitting next to each other as they do in the film, but Ennis is a little farther ahead.   Yet note the position of Jack's legs!!  (please don't think I just have a dirty mind, though!)  I think it suggests that he's turning toward Ennis, and Ennis is farther down the mountain as the poster is symbolically suggesting his difficulty with the relationship.  Also, Ennis's head is visible here (albeit from behind), whereas Jack's is not.  Another version of the Titanic-like promo poster, in which Jack is looking down and Ennis to the side.

I was wondering about Jack's leg myself...  Maybe a tenting problem going on.  Seriously, I love what you said about the symbology of this picture.

kathy

[ksxks]

Keren and Noreins, I know you are both no doubt right about this pic, but I just think it is still quite nice to imagine things about a scene that we don't get to see.  You know, like how long were they up there for after Jack says "Me neither"?  Do they say anything else to each other? 

christie, that's exactly what I've been wondering.  Can you imagine the charged silence between them after this exchange took place?  Who got up first and led the way back to the horses?  Where Ennis looked--and what he thought about--while Jack was making dinner that night?    I like to think that they probably didn't say anything else while sitting together but that maybe they glanced sideways at one another a couple more times.  Maybe Jack led the way back to the horses--giving Ennis the chance to admire the view. . . .

That's an interesting line of thought... I love this scene. the looks, the silence, the music. I don't think they said anything after that, I think they just sat there... and then one of them said maybe, "time to head down to the camp" or something like that. and I think they ate in silence, no jokes or songs or stories this time...

Oh I love this too, imagining what went on between the hillside scene and when we see Ennis sitting by the fire while Jack's already in the tent.  I think you're right, keren, that it would have been an evening with a lot of loaded silences.  Except maybe Jack would have nervously dared to say a little disguised affectionate thing, "Time to head down to camp, Cowboy" and Ennis would have been silently thrilled.  Then, remember, Jack was the cook during that time, so he would have been glad of something to keep himself busy, and maybe Ennis would have found work to do with the horses or getting wood and all that while Jack cooked...and Jack would have hoped real bad that Ennis liked the dinner he cooked him, and so on and so on...

kathy

[ksxks]

Definitely. I think the next words spoken between them were probably the "s'alright" that Jack whispers in SNIT.

Wow . . . that gives me chills.  Hours of silence--and then this passionate union.

Mmmm. Probably part of what made it so passionate - a whole day (or more) of nerves, tension and desire released with that first kiss.

Oh you are killing me...  Nerves, tension and desire...following all those days of shy foreplay...and it was indeed passionate, SNIT, but not wild and hard passionate like reunion scene -- more like, this is heaven-on-earth and each wanted to take it slow and milk out every millisecond of sensation and the swellings of emotion...

kathy

[ksxks]

I agree Shieldmaid, the words that Ennis uses are very important, and Jack would have been waiting with baited breath to see what Ennis was going to say.  The fact he not only says "we" and uses the present tense, must go some way to reassure Jack.   

Have you noticed how long it takes Jack to respond to the "one shot thing" from Ennis? You see him nodding his head afew times, as if he's taking in what Ennis has said, and is trying to quickly assimilate the words and meaning, before replying with "nobodys business but ours".  But what do you think Jack is thinking?  Is he thinking "I didn't expect him to say that!" or ""my god, he's acknowledged it happened, he's not saying anything bad about it, he's talking in the present tense"?  I know that we will never know what he's thinking, but those few seconds between Ennis talking and Jack feel like a lifetime and I just wonder how he really feels about what Ennis has said to him.

So true -- that long silence before Jack speaks is just filled with who-knows-what.  Exactly what you said, what was probably going on in Jack's head, and thinking quick what to say.  "Nobody's business but ours" is also a way to reassure Ennis that what happens on Brokeback stays on Brokeback.  Though he'd probably even at this early stage already know that he's like it to be different, to continue.

kathy

[ksxks]

i watched this scene yesterday and the message in Ennis's words really hit me.

"it's a one shot thing we got going on here"

The first time i read the short story before the movie, I would have predicted that he would have hidden from it all by blaming Jack because up to then, while you could see an interest in Jack growing, I thought he wouldn't have let himself face it.

 Ennis could have chosen to put ownership of all that happened and all the emotions involved onto Jack. He had all day to reason it all away. He could have hidden his true feelings from himself ,in the idea that it was just sexual release.... nothing more . And he could have held onto the fact that he could only want a woman, after all didn't he have Alma waiting for him???.

But his words say clearly they are both involved -- both share the same need and can't walk away. While he says it is unique between Jack and him i.e. he wouldn't feel  like this with another guy ... he is acknowledging he wants this. I think the "one shot" phrase is this unique relationship, I'm not sure a time limit is in his head at that time.

The power of the need and desire between them must have been overwhelming to have got through Ennis's defences. Truly a force of nature.

Oh!  I keep trying to quit this thread and get back to work, and then someone says something else so beautiful it just gets to me.  Beautiful, jackie.

kathy

[ksxks]

christie, That's a great point.  What *must* Jack be thinking of in those short--but oh so long!--moments of silence??  Perhaps he's both relieved and a little disappointed--he shows solidarity with Ennis by saying "it's nobody's business but ours" (in their own little club of two!) but also thinks, "please don't think less of me!"  In a way, he is probably suffering from the same anxiety that many couples face, of whatever sexual orientation, after they've been intimate together for the first time.  "Does he still like me?"  "Will we still be friends?"  And here, in more specific response to your ideas--"At least we're in this together. He acknowledges what happened. Sounds like it's going to happen again (!). What should I say next??" 

Just my speculation--this is a fascinating topic.

Yes, and then there is that -- so fascinating!  What if Jack was thinking, "What if he didn't like f**king me last night?  Was it good for him?"  What if Ennis is thinking, "I  was so rough with him...but he seemed to like it...but he didn't have an orgasm or did he? and I just finished with him and rolled over and fell asleep." Or maybe, since they were both drunk, their memories are a little fuzzy, and they worry they might have even said something that put the other one off, or... 

Speculation 'R Us.

kathy

[frances]

It is interesting that when they start exchanging words, you really don't catch a glimpse of Ennis's face, while you see Jack's in profile. 

When Ennis says his "one shot thing" and "I ain't queer" lines, he is facing away from the camera he's effectively rendering himself "faceless" by maintaining this straight facade.This suggests to me he's in deep denial. Jack, in contrast, is shown full-face when he replies "nobody's business but ours" and "me neither" . His little facials tics suggest he's lying to keep in Ennis' good graces, but also suggesting that even in "dishonesty", Jack is more "open" than Ennis

[FlwrChild]

It is interesting that when they start exchanging words, you really don't catch a glimpse of Ennis's face, while you see Jack's in profile. 

When Ennis says his "one shot thing" and "I ain't queer" lines, he is facing away from the camera he's effectively rendering himself "faceless" by maintaining this straight facade.This suggests to me he's in deep denial. Jack, in contrast, is shown full-face when he replies "nobody's business but ours" and "me neither" . His little facials tics suggest he's lying to keep in Ennis' good graces, but also suggesting that even in "dishonesty", Jack is more "open" than Ennis

So nicely put! Thank you.

[tpe]

It is interesting that when they start exchanging words, you really don't catch a glimpse of Ennis's face, while you see Jack's in profile. 

When Ennis says his "one shot thing" and "I ain't queer" lines, he is facing away from the camera he's effectively rendering himself "faceless" by maintaining this straight facade.This suggests to me he's in deep denial. Jack, in contrast, is shown full-face when he replies "nobody's business but ours" and "me neither" . His little facials tics suggest he's lying to keep in Ennis' good graces, but also suggesting that even in "dishonesty", Jack is more "open" than Ennis

So nicely put! Thank you.

Most beautifully put.

I would lie to the world for such a love...

[christie wood]

It is interesting that when they start exchanging words, you really don't catch a glimpse of Ennis's face, while you see Jack's in profile. 

When Ennis says his "one shot thing" and "I ain't queer" lines, he is facing away from the camera he's effectively rendering himself "faceless" by maintaining this straight facade.This suggests to me he's in deep denial. Jack, in contrast, is shown full-face when he replies "nobody's business but ours" and "me neither" . His little facials tics suggest he's lying to keep in Ennis' good graces, but also suggesting that even in "dishonesty", Jack is more "open" than Ennis

I'd never thought of it like that Frances, but now you say it, it seems to make sense.  Very clever isnt it to shoot it that way, in order to emphasise the difference in Ennis and Jack to how they are dealing with this situation.

Thanks Frances - another great insight.

[shieldmaid]

It is interesting that when they start exchanging words, you really don't catch a glimpse of Ennis's face, while you see Jack's in profile. 

When Ennis says his "one shot thing" and "I ain't queer" lines, he is facing away from the camera he's effectively rendering himself "faceless" by maintaining this straight facade.This suggests to me he's in deep denial. Jack, in contrast, is shown full-face when he replies "nobody's business but ours" and "me neither" . His little facials tics suggest he's lying to keep in Ennis' good graces, but also suggesting that even in "dishonesty", Jack is more "open" than Ennis

I'd never thought of it like that Frances, but now you say it, it seems to make sense.  Very clever isnt it to shoot it that way, in order to emphasise the difference in Ennis and Jack to how they are dealing with this situation.

Thanks Frances - another great insight.

Wow--that's an amazing thought.  Ennis is perhaps more truthful when he's facing away, while we get to *see* Jack concealing his true thoughts.  As tpe said, though, anything to be with the one he loves. 

[frances]

 In Proulx's story Jack says "one shot thing" . I don't give any weight of his words. It seems to me a trying to find whatever works to relieve Ennis's fears.But coming from Ennis's mouth in the film, it's something else. I don't think that Ennis intended to have sex with Jack again after the first time, intended for the second tent scene to happen, he seems to be fighting with himself until he finally heads for the tent. And he doesn't seem completely sure that's what he wants until he finally begins to respond to Jack's kiss

[welshwitch]

I agree with Frances. In the ss all Ennis does is affirm that he's not "queer" - all the other words are Jack's and Jack tells lies when it suits him. "A one-shot thing" sounds to me like " a one-off" ie something he's never been involved in before, and that's not true. "Nobody's business but ours" sounds like an attempt to reassure Ennis - I won't talk about this and no-one will ever know."Me neither" is simply not true.

The screenplay changes the meaning quite significantly- I'm not entirely sure Ennis would have made the "one-shot" remark - if you're not queer, you don't have even one-off things, in Ennis's mind anyway.