Topic: Hats off ?

[Petter Gusten]

I'm confused that the men always have their hats on - even at the 'formal' dinner 1978.

Isn't the etiquette that You take Your hat off in the presence of a woman ?

[Padmé Briseis]

I'm confused that the men always have their hats on - even at the 'formal' dinner 1978.

Isn't the etiquette that You take Your hat off in the presence of a woman ?

I love this "hat culture" and habits. I love "cowboy fashion".  Iam woman and I think it´s allright - I mean men with hat in my presence.

[TJ]

Since it was a Country and Western themed fundraising event, the wearing of cowboy hats was part of the event that evening.

Other than the fact that food was being served, the atmosphere of the festivities was still like in a C&W nightclub.

Cowboys don't always have to take off their hats in the presence of ladies. Lureen and LaShawn were not exactly ladies; you can tell that by the way they talked even though they were college graduates.

[stationbbm]

I'm confused that the men always have their hats on - even at the 'formal' dinner 1978.

Isn't the etiquette that You take Your hat off in the presence of a woman ?

Hello Petter:

I live in Texas and can affirm that most of the time, hats ARE off.  Normally if you're working out on a ranch, you'll wear a hat until you come inside.  That being said, there are those who wear hats as part of the "cowboy uniform" at local night clubs or social gatherings.  "Taking your hat off in the presence of a woman" is a respectful behavior but does not always happen.  I think those who are older may ascribe to this etiquette more so than the younger crowd.

stationbbm

[shieldmaid]

I've noticed the hats the men are always wearing in every scene.  In fact, I think the only men who don't wear hats are the two men Ennis gets into a fight with at the fireworks--otherwise they wear hats all the time, without exception.  I just took it to mean that they were living in a culture where that's normal, expected behavior for men.  And Ennis and Jack communicate a lot to each through the way they handle their hats (sorry, a little OT!).

[edgar]

Petter,

There are hats, and then there are *cowboy* hats. In the western US, it is very common to see men wearing cowboy hats during a meal, inside, outside, almost everywherre except in church. (And I wouldn't be too surprised if they get worn in church sometimes).

In the eastern US, I can't imagine seeing a man wear a derby or bowler hat in the same circumstances. However, some young men wear baseball caps all the time, even at an informal restaurant.

[dirtbiker]

I've noticed the hats the men are always wearing in every scene.  In fact, I think the only men who don't wear hats are the two men Ennis gets into a fight with at the fireworks--otherwise they wear hats all the time, without exception.  I just took it to mean that they were living in a culture where that's normal, expected behavior for men.  And Ennis and Jack communicate a lot to each through the way they handle their hats (sorry, a little OT!).

I don't remember Monroe wearing any hats either.

[TJ]

Petter,

There are hats, and then there are *cowboy* hats. In the western US, it is very common to see men wearing cowboy hats during a meal, inside, outside, almost everywherre except in church. (And I wouldn't be too surprised if they get worn in church sometimes).

In the eastern US, I can't imagine seeing a man wear a derby or bowler hat in the same circumstances. However, some young men wear baseball caps all the time, even at an informal restaurant.

Oh, there are "Cowboy Churches" now in many of the states West of the Mississippi. And, the men sometimes wear hats in church, too.

In the churches I have attended after I left the closet and where most of the membership was gay, guys and gals both wore baseball type caps. I wore one for the reason that due to an eye problem and the fact that I wear glasses, the cap's bill blocked the glare on the glasses.

The tradition of men not wearing hats in churches comes from one church in Corinth in the 1st Century AD. It was also common for non-Christian men to worship their god or gods with their head covered, apparently. But, the Jewish men have always attended worship services with their heads covered.

I say, "When in Corinth, do as the Corinthinans do; but, I am a person who believes in equality when it comes to wearing head covering in church."

[Petter Gusten]

The tradition of men not wearing hats in churches comes from one church in Corinth in the 1st Century AD. It was also common for non-Christian men to worship their god or gods with their head covered, apparently. But, the Jewish men have always attended worship services with their heads covered.

I thought it was 'copied' from the soldiers who removed their helmets to show that they were 'friendly' - like we show each other our empty right hand  when we meet - to show that we haven't any weapon.

[Silk]

It is hats off here in Illinois when you enter someones home.  It is hats off in restaurants or inside formal events.  It is hats on at inside autions, indoor arenas for horse events and hats on in barns.  LOL to the one.  I don't know about other states.  Rick wears a cowboy hat most everywhere except when we go out into the city.  He takes his off or I would knock it off (in front of ladies) no he is very much a gentleman.  I was surprised also at the event scene and Jack and that other guy keeping their hats on.

[Patriot1]

It is hats off here in Illinois when you enter someones home.  It is hats off in restaurants or inside formal events.  It is hats on at inside autions, indoor arenas for horse events and hats on in barns.  LOL to the one.  I don't know about other states.  Rick wears a cowboy hat most everywhere except when we go out into the city.  He takes his off or I would knock it off (in front of ladies) no he is very much a gentleman.  I was surprised also at the event scene and Jack and that other guy keeping their hats on.

If you are talking about the scene with Jack, Laureen, Lashawn and Randall, if you will look again, EVERYONE had their hats on!!  I thought it was a dinner dance fundraiser.  If true, did all the men keep their hats on while eating? 

Do parents teach their kids manners today?  I always see kids with some sort of hat on in all the places I was taught to take mine off. 

[jerasjr]

In my time, one could always tell the "bad guys" in westerns because they wore the dark hats.  Most often we see Jack in a dark hat and Ennis light.  Maybe the opening scene set some preconceived ideas in motion when they appeared in dark - Jack and light - Ennis. 

[tpe]

Hello  jerasjr.  I never thought of it this way.  I know that we have discussed the contrasting colors before, but I had never seen it in this light.  I wonder if this convention was also transposed in the mind of a certain reviewer when he condemned Jack as a "sexual predator". 

I never really considered the colors as indicators of good and bad.  Both seemed to have been so likeable.  I thought more in terms of their complexion: Jack was the darker one and Ennis was the lighter one.  For Ennis to have worn dark colors would have made him look too pale, and Jack would have looked darker in lighter colors.

[jerasjr]

If such a convention to the past was used, which would be appropriate, think of it more in the context of unconventional (Jack) vs conventional (Ennis).  The times were not as "sophisticated" as now, and such clues were used.  Certainly do not mean to imply that Jack was "bad", only that things were more black and white then, and the use of the hats was meant to signal "watch this character" because he will shake things up. 

[welshwitch]

The colrs change somewhat through the movie too, but I also thought of the guy in the  black hat as the baddie in trad Westerns. Black in clothes is often seen as a sophistaicated color too - I thought it might be meant to suggest that Jack was more worldly than Ennis, more of a showman, maybe with his rodeo background.

He also wears that red shirt - red, the color of passion and blood.

Red and black are the colors of death too...

[tpe]

If such a convention to the past was used, which would be appropriate, think of it more in the context of unconventional (Jack) vs conventional (Ennis).  The times were not as "sophisticated" as now, and such clues were used.  Certainly do not mean to imply that Jack was "bad", only that things were more black and white then, and the use of the hats was meant to signal "watch this character" because he will shake things up. 

jerasjr, you just made a wonderful link to the "Masculine" vs "Mainstream" gay subculture thread.      I do agree with this.  Have you checked out the discussion on that thread.  While not really the same as the topic here, there are interesting connections that would reinforce this distinction between Jack and Ennis.

 

[aintfoolin]

I agree with all the above. Ennis colors were sort of symbolic in that he was more conventional, earthy, and more in touch with nature, uncomplicated. Jack's were more daring,exciting, with just a touch of mystery, less conservative also. willing to take chances which was true to his nature. Both stood out in their own way.Any way they both looked so good.

[ksxks]

I sure noticed from moment one, the black hat/white hat thing, in the classic context of the bad guy in the black hat, good guy in white hat.  But also, I saw in their clothes their "styles" -- Ennis's being earth-tones, blending in; Jack's being bold, look-at-me.  (And did I ever.)  And Ennis's clothes would always be kind of washed out, signifying well-wornness, don't need nothing.  Jack's always seemed newer, signifying, of course, more disposable income, but also, staying up with the times.  The colors discussion is wonderful.  Jack not only in the red, but how about the rich purple shirt?  The strong blue parka?  Ennis always in some old natural-tan-color thing, unadventurous, but also practical.

kathy

[Brokeback_1]

Jacks black hat symbolised his gayness, Ennis tan hat symbolised his sexual conflicts. The use of white straw hats symbolises heterosexuality--Jimbo, the two men Lureen turned down, etc. In a number of scenes Jack is surrounded by black hats... Ennis is hardly ever surrounded by any but white or tan hats.

What about the bands?? Now THERE is a great symbolic move on the part of AL!!

[jerasjr]

Have to agree that the colors used to further delineate the characters depended on the persons natural coloring but also helped define their character.  But as ksxks said the black hat/white hat, bad/good context was readily identifiable at the time of viewing - before any futher dissection of any symbolism.  As used in a classic context it identified the part that main characters suppsedly occupied.   

[tpe]

It also set both of them apart from each other, even before we had figured out the differences in their characters.  THe oe exception in Jack's case was when he was showing off the new tractor -- he was wearing fairly light-colored hat and attire.  Does this mean anything?

[welshwitch]

That he was in salesman mode, with his wife watching, uninvolved for the moment with Ennis, unconflicted ( insofar as he ever was), being what he might have been had he been what they thought he was, acting but for a different audience, doing nothing people could label wrong?

[aintfoolin]

True WW, he was dressed to impress here in a nonthreating business like manner. The hat welcoming and inviting.

Ennis also wore a light colored straw hat but only when he was in a casual setting ie: the movies, going out to "drink" with Jack in the reunion scene, trip to post office etc. The hat Ennis wore in the divorce scene appearrs to be the same one he wore on Brokeback, but it's worn a bit and missing the band. Speaking of bands Ennis had a gold trim whereas Jack's black one was intertwined with  black leather. Cool.

[tpe]

If dress played a symbolic role (and it looks to me that it did) then I agree that there must be a specific meaning to that scene when Jack's clothing was markedly different from the rest.  WW's interpretation is certainly plausible.  It hints at "appearances", as opposed to the "hidden" or "double" life.

[Audrey twist]

under tha hats all the cowboys have a heart

[aintfoolin]

 Yes I agree Tpe ,  Appearances played a big role here. He's at work trying to impress potential clients to buy Newsome farm equipment. He had to "represent" himself as part of a succesful business.  Also these clients look older than him which may mean something too. Respect maybe?Anyway, he was their best salesman.

[jackster]

Kind of OT but did you ever notice how in the "Dozy Embrace" scene how their hats gently touch and rub against each other as they're rocking back and forth? If you've ever worn a similar large, somewhat stiff hat you'll know that vibrations or rubbing comes thru it really good, you can feel it right in your scalp. IMHO I find this a very subtle yet gentle and erotic carress between these two 19 year old boys who may still be somewhat unsure about men touching men.

jackster

[dodoLea]

In some interviews to Mr. Lee I read  that he seen Ennis and Jack as "the old west" and the "new west" ... maybe he displayed specially in the movie this vision of the two  characters the more "visible" is possible

[ksxks]

Kind of OT but did you ever notice how in the "Dozy Embrace" scene how their hats gently touch and rub against each other as they're rocking back and forth? If you've ever worn a similar large, somewhat stiff hat you'll know that vibrations or rubbing comes thru it really good, you can feel it right in your scalp. IMHO I find this a very subtle yet gentle and erotic carress between these two 19 year old boys who may still be somewhat unsure about men touching men.

jackster

I always noticed how they have to work with the hats when they embrace, how the curl of the brim works really nicely when hat-to-hat.  And of course, we see how Ennis knocked Jack's hat off so he could kiss him good and proper in the reunion scene.  But no, I never thought about how it might feel to the people inside those hats when, as in the dozy embrace, the hats are rubbing against each other.  (See dodolea's icon, above, showing exactly what you're talking about!)

kathy

[tpe]

jackster, you make a very good point about the eroticism of their hats rubbing against the other.

dodoLea, I do agree that the hats is bart of the visual realization of the underlying dichotomy.

kathy, I do find it wonderful when Ennis knowcks Jack's hat off during the reunion kiss.  Nothing would stand in his way.  Old West or New West, nothing would stand in his way.