Topic: What about Cassie Cartwright?

[n061857]

I often wondered about that cough.  Ennis is so obviously trying to avoid her.  Couldn't he have somehow suppressed it.  Or maybe he coughed on purpose, so he could get the inevitable over with, with little effort on his part. 

I think Ennis's feelings of jealousy during his last meeting with Jack may have made him redefine monogamy.  It now included women as well as men.  His last meeting with Jack probably intensified his feelings once more, so that it did not feel good to be with Cassie.  Also, because he can get by on a couple high altitude f***s a year, he didn't need her.  I think he truly felt bad.  I don't think he will ever enter into another relationship again, because he realizes his heart belongs to Jack and Jack only and I don't think he really enjoys hurting people.  I give him credit for that.  I know plenty of men who could care less if they broke a woman's heart.  He is definitely the kind of man I could fall in love with.

[Patriot1]

I often wondered about that cough.  Ennis is so obviously trying to avoid her.  Couldn't he have somehow suppressed it.  Or maybe he coughed on purpose, so he could get the inevitable over with, with little effort on his part. 

I think Ennis's feelings of jealousy during his last meeting with Jack may have made him redefine monogamy.  It now included women as well as men.  His last meeting with Jack probably intensified his feelings once more, so that it did not feel good to be with Cassie.  Also, because he can get by on a couple high altitude f***s a year, he didn't need her.  I think he truly felt bad.  I don't think he will ever enter into another relationship again, because he realizes his heart belongs to Jack and Jack only and I don't think he really enjoys hurting people.  I give him credit for that.  I know plenty of men who could care less if they broke a woman's heart.  He is definitely the kind of man I could fall in love with.

I am not so sure Ennis's feelings for Jack had much if anything to do with Cassie.

Alma let Ennis know she knew about him and Jack even though he thought he was being careful.

Then we see Ennis and Jack camping and Ennis displays his growing paranoia. "Things are normal with you and Lureen?"  "She don't suspect? (like Alma did?) "People look at you like they know?"

Ennis meets Cassie (she throws herself at him) but it is obvious he is not interested.  She has to drag him to the dance floor.  She has to tell him she is looking for a foot rub. He is not acting like a normal red-blooded American male with a hot chick in front of him.  When Casie, Ennis and Alma are together Ennis doesn't ask Cassie to dance, she drags him once again to the dance floor.  Alma Jr. notices there is no enthusiasm on Ennis's part for this relationship.  It is as if Ennis is just going through this because society expects it.   Ennis doesn't want this relationship because suppose Cassie finds out about him and Jack the same way Alma somehow did.

Jack and Ennis go on their last camping trip, something happens and Ennis decides he can't risk someone else (Cassie) finding out so he drops her. 

While I haven't come to any strong conclusions (and most of you know how strong some of my conclusions can be    ) this whole Cassie thing was there to show us how Ennis's paranoia and [blank] was building.  I left the word blank because I couldn't find the word I wanted to use in the dictionary.  I think I am about to invent a new word.  The word to fit into the [blank] is sociophobia. I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that Ennis wasn't afraid of homosexuals or homosexuality (homophobia), he was afraid of society.  That is why he did everything society expected of him even though what it expected was disastrous for him.  But he just couldn't bring himself to marry Cassie and risk hurting her, like Alma, and having her also find out about him.

[n061857]

I don't think it is his fear of being found out,  I think Ennis cannot show affection, that he doesn't feel.  He doesn't have that lust for empty sexual encounters, that Jack seems to have.  He can't even make love to his wife anymore, because of Jack.

I think the term you wre looking for may have been social phobia?   When people feel a profound sense of guilt and shame, they often withdraw from society unable to look anyone in the eye sort of speaking.  I think that is the case with Ennis.  Not only does he feel the guilt and shame of his sexuality, but the most important aspect of his life must remain a secret.  He can't share any of his feelings, more importantly his grief later, with anyone.  This is a terrible burden to bare.

[Patriot1]

I don't think it is his fear of being found out,  I think Ennis cannot show affection, that he doesn't feel.  He doesn't have that lust for empty sexual encounters, that Jack seems to have.  He can't even make love to his wife anymore, because of Jack.

I don't think that is true Nancy.  On the night Alma decided to divorce him he was trying to get a little.  She was the one to turn him off. "I'll have 'em if you'll support 'em.

[n061857]

I guess you are right.  Although he may have been going through the motions, because that is what is expected of him and to continue to feign his heterosexuality.  He seemed pretty happy/relieved to leave her alone.  I don't know too many men who would not have sex simply because their wives don't want anymore children.  

[Patriot1]

I guess you are right.  Although he may have been going through the motions, because that is what is expected of him and to continue to feign his heterosexuality.  He seemed pretty happy/relieved to leave her alone.  I don't know too many men who would not have sex simply because their wives don't want anymore children.  

I don't think he stopped having sex because she didn't want any more children.  I think he stopped having sex because she had insulted him by saying he was not a good provider.

[n061857]

I think that was his excuse not to have sex with her anymore.  I think he simply didn't want to, but your interpretation is interesting.  I hate to admit that I initiate sex with my husband frequentlyeven when I don't particularly need it, because I know that the initiative is important to him.  He just happens to have a stronger sex drive than me, and it is important to him to feel desired.

[Patriot1]

I think that was his excuse not to have sex with her anymore.  I think he simply didn't want to, but your interpretation is interesting.  I hate to admit that I initiate sex with my husband frequentlyeven when I don't particularly need it, because I know that the initiative is important to him.  He just happens to have a stronger sex drive than me, and it is important to him to feel desired.

Lets face it.  If he didn't want to have sex with her because of Jack, he could continue to do to Alma what he has been doing right along...rolling her over and pretending it is Jack.

[n061857]

I guess, I am too much of a romantic.  I want to believe that sex and love need to be linked.  This movie has put romantic notions in my head.  Foolish,  I guess.

[Patriot1]

I hate to admit that I initiate sex with my husband frequently even when I don't particularly need it, because I know that the initiative is important to him.  He just happens to have a stronger sex drive than me, and it is important to him to feel desired.

I wonder if sex is necessary to feel desired.  Now that I am 60 and nothing works any more, what would make me feel desired is intimate hold, hugging, kissing, carressing.  Come to think of it, when I was young and everything worked I would have preferred that.

The second tent scene was more of a turn on (not arousal) than the first tent scene for me.  The intimacy, the affection and the fondling were so nice. And it wasn't mad and passionate.  It was tender and caring. That made it a real turn on.

[tpe]

The second tent scene was more of a turn on (not arousal) than the first tent scene for me.  The intimacy, the affection and the fondling were so nice. And it wasn't mad and passionate.  It was tender and caring. That made it a real turn on.

I agree.  Unlike the first tent scene, the second one is truly a love scene.

[n061857]

I wonder if sex is necessary to feel desired.  Now that I am 60 and nothing works any more, what would make me feel desired is intimate hold, hugging, kissing, carressing.  Come to think of it, when I was young and everything worked I would have preferred that.

The second tent scene was more of a turn on (not arousal) than the first tent scene for me. 

I wish my husband would see it this way.  The second tent scene was very erotic!  Much more so than the first,  I would agree.

[tamlynn]

What possible clue did Ennis give Cassie or any other woman, after Jack, to encourage her to have any feelings for him at all? 

He didn't approach her, she approached him.  He didn't want to dance, she wanted to dance.  He was drowning his sorrows, not looking for romance. 

Ennis was not available and her behavior was so typical of a woman making a fool of herself by throwing herself at an unavailable man.  And, boy did it happen in the 70's.  This scene was a revelation to me as I recall the numerous encounters I had with men just like Ennis.  But at that time, I had no clue.  Like Cassie, my feelings were hurt, as I thought it was me, my fault.  It wasn't about me at all, unless I wanted to take responsibility and fix my perceptions and expectations.  The man was in serious emotional turmoil and in love with someone else, and very likely with another man.  In those days, it never crossed our minds, unless the man showed obvious feminine behaviors.  Ennis doesn't give a clue as to his preference.  Some women think all they have to do is appear in front of a man to start the desire and relationship rolling.  And, if it doesn't roll, some don't give up.  Then blame the man, like Cassie did, when it doesn't work.  Good grief.  A man who is in love with another man is just filling minutes, passing time, tolerating life.  He is literally not present.  This is brutal to clueless women.

Her tortured statement should be a wake up call for every woman alive, "...women don't fall in love with fun."
That's too bad, that's also her problem.  Not his.

Maybe men do, Cassie.  Knock it off.  Go away.  She was making me sick.  But it was a profound awakening for me.  I was ready to find a building to throw up next to.  Ladies, let's stop making fools of ourselves.  Don't fall in love until you know the guy and you are both on the same page... and having FUN.

That is exactly why men don't fall in love with most women... they are no fun.  Jack and Ennis had fun. Their friendship grew into desire which grew into a deep, everlasting mutual love grounded in peace, youth, beauty, inspiration... and fun.  In comparison, it made Cassie and Alma look like drips... nagging, carping, whining, needy, never satisfied, judgemental drips who didn't pay attention and didn't fix themselves.  There is nothing to love about them.  So, they each found a man where their only talent worked... just show up.  That's not love.  That's filling time and fooling yourself.

Just what Ennis was doing.

So what made Cassie believe she was in love?  Just her self sided, one sided desire and her attraction to his handsome good looks.  Cassie, that's not love.  You don't even know who he is.

Did Carl deserve to be walked away from so she could scold another man in public who didn't perform to her liking?  You know what?  A lonely man needs to be out among people too.  but leave him be... or care...  but leave your expectations at the door.

There were many profound moments in this movie.  Her portrayal of the clueless, sexy woman in the 70's was perfectly done with a great lesson to all would listen, in our face as well as in Ennis's.

By this time, I cared so much about Ennis, it's his pain I felt, not hers.  But he apologizes to her!!!  She should have been ashamed.  Ennis didn't do one thing to deserve her abuse.  NOt one thing.  She led him around, baited him constantly, and got mad when he didn't bite.  He couldn't sort it all out. 

Remember when Jack seduced Ennis and ENNIS apologized to him the next evening?  Ennis was such a victim, but ever the gentleman.  I guess he can't help being lovable.  Even in his raging bull moments.  The only one who could rein him in (but not totally) was Jack... recall the symbolic rope scene... priceless.

Friendless and unable to trust anyone except for Alma Jr, Ennis begins to live like a stick.  He is in his words, nothing, nowhere.  He is unable to fix it and barely able to stand it.  He's getting the medicine he gave to Jack, the one person in the world who knew him and loved him heart and soul. 

I have never seen two men grow in love and then consummate it.  I have never seen two men in love kiss.
I was mesmerized, transfixed.  It was so real, so natural.  I love them.  This movie is not only about two men in love, it is an expose on how dull women can be in comparison.  Men love men differently than they love women.  Men can be rougher with men and they have more fun together with the roughhousing and wrestling...  seems to be more of a sharing quality on all levels. 

"I don't get you Ennis," Cassie said.

That's it.  Exactly right.  From the get go, Cassie.


Here's to fun and friendship...  love and peace...

Tamlynn

[dirtbiker]

Great analysis, tamlynn!  Certainly a new twist on Cassie's motive and naivete.  Would love to hear your opinions on the other threads 

[lamusica]

Wow, tamlynn -- so very well-stated.  I never saw Cassie in that light before, but it surely fits.  Great idea!

[jackster]

Wow, tamlynn -- so very well-stated.  I never saw Cassie in that light before, but it surely fits.  Great idea!

Ditto. Ditto. I've never paid much attention to Cassie before, but you've certainly opened my eyes.

jackster

[tpe]

What possible clue did Ennis give Cassie or any other woman, after Jack, to encourage her to have any feelings for him at all? 

He didn't approach her, she approached him.  He didn't want to dance, she wanted to dance.  He was drowning his sorrows, not looking for romance. 

Ennis was not available and her behavior was so typical of a woman making a fool of herself by throwing herself at an unavailable man.  And, boy did it happen in the 70's.  This scene was a revelation to me as I recall the numerous encounters I had with men just like Ennis.  But at that time, I had no clue.  Like Cassie, my feelings were hurt, as I thought it was me, my fault.  It wasn't about me at all, unless I wanted to take responsibility and fix my perceptions and expectations.  The man was in serious emotional turmoil and in love with someone else, and very likely with another man.  In those days, it never crossed our minds, unless the man showed obvious feminine behaviors.  Ennis doesn't give a clue as to his preference.  Some women think all they have to do is appear in front of a man to start the desire and relationship rolling.  And, if it doesn't roll, some don't give up.  Then blame the man, like Cassie did, when it doesn't work.  Good grief.  A man who is in love with another man is just filling minutes, passing time, tolerating life.  He is literally not present.  This is brutal to clueless women.

Her tortured statement should be a wake up call for every woman alive, "...women don't fall in love with fun."
That's too bad, that's also her problem.  Not his.

Maybe men do, Cassie.  Knock it off.  Go away.  She was making me sick.  But it was a profound awakening for me.  I was ready to find a building to throw up next to.  Ladies, let's stop making fools of ourselves.  Don't fall in love until you know the guy and you are both on the same page... and having FUN.

That is exactly why men don't fall in love with most women... they are no fun.  Jack and Ennis had fun. Their friendship grew into desire which grew into a deep, everlasting mutual love grounded in peace, youth, beauty, inspiration... and fun.  In comparison, it made Cassie and Alma look like drips... nagging, carping, whining, needy, never satisfied, judgemental drips who didn't pay attention and didn't fix themselves.  There is nothing to love about them.  So, they each found a man where their only talent worked... just show up.  That's not love.  That's filling time and fooling yourself.

Just what Ennis was doing.

So what made Cassie believe she was in love?  Just her self sided, one sided desire and her attraction to his handsome good looks.  Cassie, that's not love.  You don't even know who he is.

Did Carl deserve to be walked away from so she could scold another man in public who didn't perform to her liking?  You know what?  A lonely man needs to be out among people too.  but leave him be... or care...  but leave your expectations at the door.

There were many profound moments in this movie.  Her portrayal of the clueless, sexy woman in the 70's was perfectly done with a great lesson to all would listen, in our face as well as in Ennis's.

By this time, I cared so much about Ennis, it's his pain I felt, not hers.  But he apologizes to her!!!  She should have been ashamed.  Ennis didn't do one thing to deserve her abuse.  NOt one thing.  She led him around, baited him constantly, and got mad when he didn't bite.  He couldn't sort it all out. 

Remember when Jack seduced Ennis and ENNIS apologized to him the next evening?  Ennis was such a victim, but ever the gentleman.  I guess he can't help being lovable.  Even in his raging bull moments.  The only one who could rein him in (but not totally) was Jack... recall the symbolic rope scene... priceless.

Friendless and unable to trust anyone except for Alma Jr, Ennis begins to live like a stick.  He is in his words, nothing, nowhere.  He is unable to fix it and barely able to stand it.  He's getting the medicine he gave to Jack, the one person in the world who knew him and loved him heart and soul. 

I have never seen two men grow in love and then consummate it.  I have never seen two men in love kiss.
I was mesmerized, transfixed.  It was so real, so natural.  I love them.  This movie is not only about two men in love, it is an expose on how dull women can be in comparison.  Men love men differently than they love women.  Men can be rougher with men and they have more fun together with the roughhousing and wrestling...  seems to be more of a sharing quality on all levels. 

"I don't get you Ennis," Cassie said.

That's it.  Exactly right.  From the get go, Cassie.


Here's to fun and friendship...  love and peace...

Tamlynn

Thanks you so much, Tamlynn.

In a way, Cassi'e love for Ennis was doomed from the start, and perhaps she sensed it soone enough.  But you know, when one is in love, one is powerless to reason or confront the basic reality.  In a sense, we can't blame Cassie or other women for persisting.  Sometimes, we are just playthings that the God of Love plays with and then casts aside.   

And I do believe that Ennis was not completely passive when it came to Cassie and Jack.  For example, Jack did not just impose his desires on Ennis.  Ennis at that point already desired Jack.  We should not that in the FNIT, it was Ennis who took the active role, and not the passive one. 

The same with Cassie.  There was a part of Ennis that wanted to play the game, even though he knew that Cassie was bound to be hurt in the long run.  Ennis did not go wntirely uunwilling with Cassie.  For Ennis and Jack, relationships with women were essential for keeping cover, and perhaps both genuinely believed that it was requisite to have female lovers, if only to convince themselves that they were not entirely of one preference.  The cost in human emotion and hurt in the long run was probably not completely realized.  But I do think that in the end, Cassie is indeed a tragic figure.  He is a victim to her own love as well as a victim of ENnis's emotional confusion.  I don't think Ennis intentionally wanted to hurt her.  But he should have known that, given where his true love lay, this was inevitable.

[tamlynn]

Hi tpe, you are right on with Cassie. 

I do think that Ennis only took an active role in pursuing his relationship with Jack after the FNIT.  I still believe Ennis was aggressively manipulated into place by Jack the first night.  I think Ennis had feelings for him, but would never act on them because of his homophobic upbringing, without Jack's guidance and proactive initiation.  Ennis took an 'active' role the first night as a REaction to Jack's aggressive manipulation.  It was Jack who actively and brilliantly broke down the sexual barriers.  Therefore, wasn't Jack the aggressive one?  does it matter who effed who?  naw... Ennis responded exactly as Jack actively strategized he would.

It was Jack's finest sales job, a career he went on to excel at.  In sales, we sell ourselves, with words and timing to convince others to trust us and listen and do what we want them to do.  This is what Jack did.  Of course, it helped that they were beginning to care about each other.  But it was Jack who masterminded the timing, the event, without getting decked by Goliath and without losing the moment.  Not an easy thing to do with a man like Ennis.  It could have gone any one of three ways, if it weren't for Jack's awesome timing and manipulation.  He was going to get punched, rejected or f----d.  Jack took risks, aggressively.

I can't take that away from Jack.  Ennis was better at everything else... shooting, cooking, work ethic... but Jack manipulated this straight as an arrow cowboy aggressively into place on Brokeback and he broke through the resistance and succeeded.  Brilliant acting by Jake.  Only the sexiest man on the planet could do what Jake did. 

Jack controlled him on that mountain.  Ennis controlled Jack off the mountain forever after.  Because Jack sold out.  He could not extend his extraordinary powers over the long term.  So urgent was his need to be with Ennis, Ennis played him like a fiddle.  He had no confidence to do what it would take to rein in Ennis permanently. 

Notice how good Jack was at selling himself and big items... once.  This was his expertise.  How many tractors will one farmer buy in 5-10 years.  1?  And, Jack sold many farmers one tractor.  Awesome talent and gift that he repeated over and over.  (To Jack's credit, he could have repeated his power of seduction on many a cowboy over and over, but remained true to his love for Ennis, at least for many years.  How wearing for a man like Jack who could have had any number of fulfilling relationships.  No doubt, he loved Ennis, heart and soul.  But, Ennis had one barrier Jack could never break down.)

applying this concept to his relationship with Ennis, he sold the big ticket on the mountain short term, but he was at Ennis's mercy for the long term.  he never convinced him that they should be together always... until he died.  Sad that it took death to finally get Ennis past the homophobic barrier.  unless he's not dead.  Would he go so far as to fake his death to convince Ennis how important their love is and break down the last barrier?  Absolutely.  That's Jack's area of expertise... the Big Sell, the one shot deal.

Thanks, for making me think more, tpe... I learn new things all the time...  hoping for a sequel and happy ending...

Tamlynn









 

[jackster]

I do think that Ennis only took an active role in pursuing his relationship with Jack after the FNIT. . . . .

tamlynn. You’ve made some really interesting insights here going way beyond just Cassie. The whole thing about “salesman Jack” is something I’ve never thought about.

Kinda’ OT but something I’ve always wondered about yet haven’t seen discussed and you hit upon it here is your mention of Ennis being “aggressively manipulated” by Jack FNIT. My question is - what about Ennis’s earlier comment on the coyote’s “Balls as big as apples” and then later doing his “private chores” (aka bathing) right there in full view of Jack preparing supper? This always struck me a strange comment, I don’t hunt but I know a lot of hunters, I’ve NEVER heard the size of an animal referred to by the size of its testicles (except in science books). Where the heck did that come from? Both these events seem to me a not so subtle effort by Ennis to bring sex or sexuality (and specifically male sexuality) into their daily lives. Almost goading Jack on, like “here it is buddy, wanna some of this?”. And then to top it off with that “you may be a sinner, but I ain’t had the opportunity” – come on Ennis, who do you think your foolin’ here? To me after all this prelude, “the move” FNIT by Jack comes as little surprise, just MHO. Sorry if this is way off the Cassie thread.

[tamlynn]

Hi Jackster,
I tend to think the balls comment, the nude Ennis scene were all innocent, not sexual.  typical farmboy talk.  They all talk that way.  he was just being a guy around a guy.  but maybe jack thought he was being goaded, now that i think about his deliberate focus on the potatoes he was peeling, very cool, very guarded.  Was he measuring the situation?  was he saying to himself "am i being tempted?  Is he testing me?  I'm not going to blow this.  I'm sticking to my plan, and I have one.  This has to be done right.  I love this guy and I'm gonna get him.  And the way to do that is not to appear attracted."  He didn't want to blow it by making a move or even take a look right then... not quite ready yet.  A beautiful scene... Jake Gyllenhaal at his best.

now the i haven't yet had the opportunity comment... i have to think more on that.  could  ennis just be trying to be funny?  Such a quiet guy.  But your comment makes me think and wonder...

But still, Ennis was ready to rage when he woke up in FNIT, he was shocked, confused, angry.  He just didn't say, ahhh, I thought you'd never try... no, he was enraged.  Jack's timing was brilliant... he didn't get socked and he didn't let Ennis go back to sleep... he ripped his jacket off and Ennis bit the bait.  He was completely under Jack's control... Jack using calculation and timing turned Ennis's rage into sexual frenzy.  not every man could have pulled that off with homophobic Ennis.

Back to the Cassie thread... he was completely bored... but always excited to see Jack.  No woman would ever put up with his disappearing act, especially the older he got and considering the women in his age group also aging and getting wiser. 

 

[lamusica]

There's certainly some interesting controversies going on here.  Everyone makes some real good points and the truth is up to each one of us to decide upon.  I always felt Jack was the dominant and most agressive of the two where sex comes into play.  Ennis may be on top, but Jack gets him there by hook or by crook.
I agree with tamlynn that Jack feigned disinterest in Ennis until the FNIT (I think that's what she said).  So much talk had passed between the two, but I don't think it was intentionally sexual until FNIT when Jack makes his move on Ennis.
When you're around young men, the kind of talk Ennis and Jack engaged in seems pretty typical to me.  I don't think Ennis had any hidden agenda.  However, this is all up to debate.
Later on in the relationship, Ennis shows his dominance through his stubborness and fears, but early on, I think Jack takes things in hand and jumpstarts the affair.

[tpe]

Hi tpe, you are right on with Cassie. 

I do think that Ennis only took an active role in pursuing his relationship with Jack after the FNIT.  I still believe Ennis was aggressively manipulated into place by Jack the first night.  I think Ennis had feelings for him, but would never act on them because of his homophobic upbringing, without Jack's guidance and proactive initiation.  Ennis took an 'active' role the first night as a REaction to Jack's aggressive manipulation.  It was Jack who actively and brilliantly broke down the sexual barriers.  Therefore, wasn't Jack the aggressive one?  does it matter who effed who?  naw... Ennis responded exactly as Jack actively strategized he would.

It was Jack's finest sales job, a career he went on to excel at.  In sales, we sell ourselves, with words and timing to convince others to trust us and listen and do what we want them to do.  This is what Jack did.  Of course, it helped that they were beginning to care about each other.  But it was Jack who masterminded the timing, the event, without getting decked by Goliath and without losing the moment.  Not an easy thing to do with a man like Ennis.  It could have gone any one of three ways, if it weren't for Jack's awesome timing and manipulation.  He was going to get punched, rejected or f----d.  Jack took risks, aggressively.

I can't take that away from Jack.  Ennis was better at everything else... shooting, cooking, work ethic... but Jack manipulated this straight as an arrow cowboy aggressively into place on Brokeback and he broke through the resistance and succeeded.  Brilliant acting by Jake.  Only the sexiest man on the planet could do what Jake did. 

Jack controlled him on that mountain.  Ennis controlled Jack off the mountain forever after.  Because Jack sold out.  He could not extend his extraordinary powers over the long term.  So urgent was his need to be with Ennis, Ennis played him like a fiddle.  He had no confidence to do what it would take to rein in Ennis permanently. 

Notice how good Jack was at selling himself and big items... once.  This was his expertise.  How many tractors will one farmer buy in 5-10 years.  1?  And, Jack sold many farmers one tractor.  Awesome talent and gift that he repeated over and over.  (To Jack's credit, he could have repeated his power of seduction on many a cowboy over and over, but remained true to his love for Ennis, at least for many years.  How wearing for a man like Jack who could have had any number of fulfilling relationships.  No doubt, he loved Ennis, heart and soul.  But, Ennis had one barrier Jack could never break down.)

applying this concept to his relationship with Ennis, he sold the big ticket on the mountain short term, but he was at Ennis's mercy for the long term.  he never convinced him that they should be together always... until he died.  Sad that it took death to finally get Ennis past the homophobic barrier.  unless he's not dead.  Would he go so far as to fake his death to convince Ennis how important their love is and break down the last barrier?  Absolutely.  That's Jack's area of expertise... the Big Sell, the one shot deal.

Thanks, for making me think more, tpe... I learn new things all the time...  hoping for a sequel and happy ending...

Tamlynn

Well argued, Tamlynn.  It is true that Jack handled Ennis brilliantly up on Brokeback in 63.  Ennis would have proved a difficult lover, if only for his reluctance to act directly on his own feelings.  And it is true that Ennis was more in control thereafter.  I guess I differ a bit on the view that Ennis was simply clay in the hands of Jack in 63, because I think Jack would have withdrawn if he detwected the slightest rebuff from Ennis.  But this diffference in opinion does not negate some basic truths you say here. 

I find the analogy with sales very interesting.  After all, Jack was trying to sell Ennis a concept -- an idea of a sweet life that both could enjoy if only they were willing to shoulder the risk.  I suspect that there is more truth in this analogy than meets the eye.  But the tragedy of it all is that unlike most salesmen, Jack was putting himself on the line -- his own happiness hung on the balance.  A good salesman would always put some distance between what he is selling and himself -- he cannot afford to be too attached or consumed by the object at hand.  And Jack indeed violates this by predicating his emotional future onto this idea, and he suffers deeply as a consequence.

A similar thing can be said of Cassie, but to a lesser extent.  Cassie realized sooner than Jack that she could not predicate her happiness to the uncertainties that dominate the object of her affections.  It did not lessen the pain, but we know that she spared herself a great deal of pain.  Perhaps because ashe had other dreams, other wishes that lay in wait to be fulfilled.  Like Jack, she tried to sell Ennis a vision of a second life of love.  She failed, but perhaps saved herself in the long run.  Like good salesmen, she knew how tro disengage when the risk became too high.

[welshwitch]

Cassie seems to me in her immediate pursuit of Ennis to be an analogue of Lureen in the bar sceeen. These are both predatory women, fulfilling the tradtional male role of pursuer - one gets her man and a marriage which degenerates into something that could be done over the phone, the other loses her man and is free to settle for something else, second-best to her maybe. but it also shows up the contrast in Ennis and Jack; Jack when approached by Lureen is a willing participant, though enouraged by her whereas Ennis, though encouraged by Cassie, holds back and eventually rejects the whole idea of a relationship with her. which may tell us a lot about the differences between the two - at least it makes Jack look more of a compromiser or a trimmer while Ennis looks more resolute, more stubborn if you like.

[tpe]

Very interesting analogy drawn here, WW.  In truth, Ennis had better hindsight, and perhaps this lead him to spare Cassie from a life in limbo.  But Cassie does indeed stand as counterpoint to Lureen and her pursuit of Jack.  And who knows if Cassie's desire for a career of her own would have paralleled Lureen's inevitable sumbersion into the family business?  Certainly, each one echoes aspects of the other.

[tamlynn]

Hi tpe,
Yes, I do agree.  If Ennis had detected rejection from Jack, he would have withdrawn.  But since he didn't, Jack proceeded to do what he wanted.  Ennis was ready, whether he knew it or not.  Jack knew.  Jack was the driver.  Unfortunately, Ennis's stubborn resistance afterwards was stronger than their love.  But he did love Jack to the point of never being able to love Cassie or anyone else, other than his daughters.

[tpe]

Hi tpe,
Yes, I do agree.  If Ennis had detected rejection from Jack, he would have withdrawn.  But since he didn't, Jack proceeded to do what he wanted.  Ennis was ready, whether he knew it or not.  Jack knew.  Jack was the driver.  Unfortunately, Ennis's stubborn resistance afterwards was stronger than their love.  But he did love Jack to the point of never being able to love Cassie or anyone else, other than his daughters.

Jack certainly knew by then what he wanted.  It's like Cassie, who knew exactly what she wanted the moment she introduces herself to Ennis.

[welshwitch]

Cassie's unlike Alma in many ways - more upfront, more aggressive, more confident of her own powers ( at first) but I wonder. Alma eventually found herself a job and in the end another husband - Cassie has evidently found someone else too. Are these women indicators of the changing times, when women who saw themselves primarily as housewives and mothers were giving way to women with ambition to make it in the outside world? Lureen's family businees also brings her into contact with the outside, and very male, world of big agricultural machinery - we don't see any women among the sutomers of her father's business.

Now I'm off on another tack and wondering if we're seeing self-sufficient women and men who turn to each other.....

[tpe]

Cassie's unlike Alma in many ways - more upfront, more aggressive, more confident of her own powers ( at first) but I wonder. Alma eventually found herself a job and in the end another husband - Cassie has evidently found someone else too. Are these women indicators of the changing times, when women who saw themselves primarily as housewives and mothers were giving way to women with ambition to make it in the outside world? Lureen's family businees also brings her into contact with the outside, and very male, world of big agricultural machinery - we don't see any women among the sutomers of her father's business.

Now I'm off on another tack and wondering if we're seeing self-sufficient women and men who turn to each other.....

She certainly seems closer to the young Lureen, but I wonder if she would end up the same way.  She is certainly not as well-off.  But she seems to have ambition.  It is telling that Ennis dismisses her desire to go to Nursing school in his conversation with Jack.  One would think that this is his indifference to improving his own lot.  We have already seen this with his dealings with Alma.  Cassie would have been subjected to the same indifference, it would seem.

[tamlynn]

My opinion of Cassie has eased a bit... after watching the dvd 20 times.

In their last scene, Ennis was in a foul mood... with his pie.  The previous scene shows him crumpling like a kitten in Jack's arms. 

He was an angry man, full of frustration, with his machismo to prove.  Cassie was the unfortunate one to get in front of him.  He was so rude when he said, good for you.  He was mad at himself.  Maybe he hated himself.  But he hurt her deeply with his attitude, evasion and dismissal.  He was grasping for control at her expense.  He was used to having it.

The next scene... the postcard marked deceased.

Ennis had controlled Jack for 20 years.  When he crumpled, that was a sign, the end.  It set in motion the final blows.

[manhattangirl]

My opinion of Cassie changed also.   I thought her really pushy, but she was only looking for something, a sign, read on Ennis, she couldn't figure out.  Her last resort was Alma, Jr.  When Cassie ask her would her father remarry.  She again was left alone with no answer, no clue, and hurt feelings. 

Cassie just didn't know what she was up against.   And yes Ennis was hurtful to her.   Returning from the final meeting with Jack, he apparently didn't even let her know he was back, and then choose to scorn her because she was with some else, that was really a low blow, and showed his own hypocrisy, or was it a reminder of Jack's own indiscretions? 

The Ennis she tried to know was gone, the man sitting there missed his lover, hurt by how things were left with them.   And most importantly his love for Jack was his existence,  which he still try to control.

Ennis left a lot of damage in the wake of his constant denial. 

Tamlyn  you hit the mark again.