Author Topic: "Maybe he’s not the marrying kind" - Alma Jr - Did she know?  (Read 58401 times)

Offline tpe

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Re: "Maybe he’s not the marrying kind" - Alma Jr - Did she know?
« Reply #60 on: Feb 25, 2008, 09:10 AM »
i really guess we'll never know. i personally beleive jr knew and was supportive but its impossible to know for sure

Impossible to know for a fact, but there is indeed enough circumstantial evidence to say that she did, IMO.  :)


Offline aintfoolin

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Re: "Maybe he’s not the marrying kind" - Alma Jr - Did she know?
« Reply #61 on: Feb 25, 2008, 09:46 AM »
Alma Jr's statement, "not the marrying kind " may have been something told to her by Alma in one of their discussions about their father regarding the divorce. Maybe Alma's only *safe* explaination to the girls about why she and their dad got divorced. Both of these young girls met Jack up close and personal . What teenage girl would'nt remember *daddys gorgeous friend*. ?  Who else did Ennis know from outside Riverton? Ennis introduced him as just "Jack". The girls prompting Ennis to relive his rodeo experiences may have triggered Alma's concern about Jack still being in Ennis's life.  Alma Jr. may have simply put 2 and 2 together. She was old enough to remember Ennis yearly *fishing trips*. Still no proof that she knew for sure ,Just speculation and and a few observations.
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Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: "Maybe he’s not the marrying kind" - Alma Jr - Did she know?
« Reply #62 on: Feb 25, 2008, 11:08 AM »
Alma Jr's statement, "not the marrying kind " may have been something told to her by Alma in one of their discussions about their father regarding the divorce. Maybe Alma's only *safe* explaination to the girls about why she and their dad got divorced. Both of these young girls met Jack up close and personal . What teenage girl would'nt remember *daddys gorgeous friend*. ?  Who else did Ennis know from outside Riverton? Ennis introduced him as just "Jack". The girls prompting Ennis to relive his rodeo experiences may have triggered Alma's concern about Jack still being in Ennis's life.  Alma Jr. may have simply put 2 and 2 together. She was old enough to remember Ennis yearly *fishing trips*. Still no proof that she knew for sure ,Just speculation and and a few observations.

sound plausible to me im pretty sure she knew :)

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: "Maybe he’s not the marrying kind" - Alma Jr - Did she know?
« Reply #63 on: Feb 25, 2008, 11:10 AM »
Perhaps the expression"He's not the marrying kind" answers to the reality of seeing that his father was into a single life with not much interest in another marriage-once burned...-,but with no deeper intentions in the phrase meaning.Perfectly Alma could have spoken her girls about how bad husband Ennis was,as a kind of put them against him,as it usually happens,unfortunately,in many not friendly agreement divorces...Not necessarily it must be for some suspicion about his father's sexuality;although it's true that the happiness Ennis showed every time he went and came back from a meeting with Jack could be easily realised by the girls after years and years of living it ,as well as the progressive break in their parents living...The important for me is that,not matter what,how and in what measure Jr. knew it;but that she respected her father and loved him very much as the father he had been for both of them,not for the person he could love.And that's says very much about her,and all for good...
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
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Offline tpe

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Re: "Maybe he’s not the marrying kind" - Alma Jr - Did she know?
« Reply #64 on: Feb 26, 2008, 09:01 AM »
MPJ, I just pointed this out in another thread as a hint that Alma Jr. knoew more about her father.

I feel that the phrase was a subtle way of telling Cassie the truth about Ennis -- but, it could very well be interpreted as saying that Ennis was a loner, who was unable to keep up with a marriage.  But I am biased -- I suspect that it was the former, and not the latter, although there is no sure way to prove it.


Offline myprivatejack

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Re: "Maybe he’s not the marrying kind" - Alma Jr - Did she know?
« Reply #65 on: Feb 26, 2008, 11:17 AM »
MPJ, I just pointed this out in another thread as a hint that Alma Jr. knoew more about her father.

I feel that the phrase was a subtle way of telling Cassie the truth about Ennis -- but, it could very well be interpreted as saying that Ennis was a loner, who was unable to keep up with a marriage.  But I am biased -- I suspect that it was the former, and not the latter, although there is no sure way to prove it.

Yes,I've just seen your post about the possibility that Jr. knew more about her father...Well,it can be a way to say Ennis wasn't a man done for marriage for his loner way of being,increased for some influence on Alma's side.Or also-why not? and perhaps the most probable possibility...-because she really suspected something after so many years of happy fishing trips with a fellow ;who could perfectly play the role of "the another woman" before Jr.´s eyes,mainly if she saw how his parents marriage was going to the dogs...All this united with the other possibility that she didn't like Cassie at all; half for herself,half for this kind of jealousy teenagers feel for their Father's new partners.But for me,I repite,the most important fact is that she was the only person who understood and respected her Father's option,if she really knew it.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: "Maybe he’s not the marrying kind" - Alma Jr - Did she know?
« Reply #66 on: Feb 26, 2008, 01:54 PM »
too many things happened when between ennis and alma when alma was young she must have asked her mother and i dont think alma would have denied her daughter the knowlage once she got a bit older

Offline Emzan

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Re: "Maybe he’s not the marrying kind" - Alma Jr - Did she know?
« Reply #67 on: Feb 26, 2008, 01:58 PM »
too many things happened when between ennis and alma when alma was young she must have asked her mother and i dont think alma would have denied her daughter the knowlage once she got a bit older

maybe she did, but I don't think she told her the hole truth :s)
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Offline tpe

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Re: "Maybe he’s not the marrying kind" - Alma Jr - Did she know?
« Reply #68 on: Feb 27, 2008, 08:00 AM »
Thanks MPJ, zankou, and Emzan.

When I remember the look Jr. gave Ennis and Cassie while they danced, it seemed to me that I see pity in her eyes -- pity for both of them, but pity for Cassie, especially. 

I waver between thinking whether Jr. despised or pitied Cassie -- I lean more towards the latter.  She seemed to have known from the start that Cassie was bound to be disappointed.

Then again, as MPJ noted, there is a clear case to justify possibly resentment: Jr. wanted to ask Ennis if she could live with him, with the understanding that she would care for him.  Thus, Cassie could be viewed as a threat to her plans, at it would again put her in a situation similar to being under Alma and Monroe.  Perhaps this was reason enough for Jr. to feel threatened, and lends support to her not liking Cassie...


Offline lamusica

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Re: "Maybe he’s not the marrying kind" - Alma Jr - Did she know?
« Reply #69 on: Feb 27, 2008, 08:24 PM »
Thanks MPJ, zankou, and Emzan.

When I remember the look Jr. gave Ennis and Cassie while they danced, it seemed to me that I see pity in her eyes -- pity for both of them, but pity for Cassie, especially. 

I waver between thinking whether Jr. despised or pitied Cassie -- I lean more towards the latter.  She seemed to have known from the start that Cassie was bound to be disappointed.

Then again, as MPJ noted, there is a clear case to justify possibly resentment: Jr. wanted to ask Ennis if she could live with him, with the understanding that she would care for him.  Thus, Cassie could be viewed as a threat to her plans, at it would again put her in a situation similar to being under Alma and Monroe.  Perhaps this was reason enough for Jr. to feel threatened, and lends support to her not liking Cassie...



I didn't think Jr. disliked Cassie, but that she had the natural wariness of a teenager watching a woman other than her mother putting the moves on her dad.  I don't think there was anything personal here.  I think the remark about Ennis not being the marrying kind just meant it didn't work out with her mom, so Cassie shouldn't think she would have any more luck with Ennis.  I know young girls are jealous of anybody's attention to their dad, and this is, in MHO, just that at work here.  I really do not think she knows or suspects that Ennis doesn't prefer women.  I think young girls are too selfish to really think of their parents outside of their own relationship with them.  To her, Ennis was Daddy, so cool your jets, Cassie.
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Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: "Maybe he’s not the marrying kind" - Alma Jr - Did she know?
« Reply #70 on: Feb 28, 2008, 06:27 AM »
I didn't think Jr. disliked Cassie, but that she had the natural wariness of a teenager watching a woman other than her mother putting the moves on her dad.  I don't think there was anything personal here.  I think the remark about Ennis not being the marrying kind just meant it didn't work out with her mom, so Cassie shouldn't think she would have any more luck with Ennis.  I know young girls are jealous of anybody's attention to their dad, and this is, in MHO, just that at work here.  I really do not think she knows or suspects that Ennis doesn't prefer women.  I think young girls are too selfish to really think of their parents outside of their own relationship with them.  To her, Ennis was Daddy, so cool your jets, Cassie.

hmmmmmmm good point

Offline tpe

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Re: "Maybe he’s not the marrying kind" - Alma Jr - Did she know?
« Reply #71 on: Feb 28, 2008, 10:18 AM »
It is natural -- to be jealous of someone who might take her daddy away.    I wonder whether she felt the same way about Monroe -- but I suspect that this was not the case in this instance.  It seemed that the girls were closer to Ennis, perhaps because he refused to be the disciplinarian.  Whatever the case, Jr.'s affection for her dad would have certainly made her suspicious of anyone trying to get in between them, no matter how well-meaning.

Still, I wonder at what Alma said during the Thanksgiving scene in the kitchen: that she and the girls worried about him and that what was implied that they wanted him to marry again?  Or was this part about marrying again just Alma's point of view?




Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: "Maybe he’s not the marrying kind" - Alma Jr - Did she know?
« Reply #72 on: Feb 28, 2008, 10:28 AM »
It is natural -- to be jealous of someone who might take her daddy away.    I wonder whether she felt the same way about Monroe -- but I suspect that this was not the case in this instance.  It seemed that the girls were closer to Ennis, perhaps because he refused to be the disciplinarian.  Whatever the case, Jr.'s affection for her dad would have certainly made her suspicious of anyone trying to get in between them, no matter how well-meaning.

Still, I wonder at what Alma said during the Thanksgiving scene in the kitchen: that she and the girls worried about him and that what was implied that they wanted him to marry again?  Or was this part about marrying again just Alma's point of view?





i took at as almas point as a way to stop her and the girls worrying but you cant be sure i suppose :s)

Offline tpe

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Re: "Maybe he’s not the marrying kind" - Alma Jr - Did she know?
« Reply #73 on: Feb 28, 2008, 10:32 AM »
i took at as almas point as a way to stop her and the girls worrying but you cant be sure i suppose :s)

This is a possibility.

In any case, I think Jr. knew more about Ennis than is seen on the surface, and so, I would find it peculiar if Jr. truly wanted Ennis to remarry.  Hence, I can understand her ambivalence towards Cassie.

 

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Re: "Maybe he’s not the marrying kind" - Alma Jr - Did she know?
« Reply #74 on: Mar 28, 2008, 12:05 AM »
I think Alma Jr. did know...or at least suspected. After all, she saw for years how her father suddenly was happy right before and right after his trips with Jack. He'd go from the sullen brooding look, to smiles and joy and Alma Jr saw that only Jack made her dad feel that way. Only Jack made Ennis happy. So she must have suspected something, especially as she became a teenager. Besides, kids do pick up on things rather quickly. I think Junior had suspected something about her father and Jack since she was a child, and by the time Cassie came along she definitely knew. She knew Cassie didn't even stand a chance...her father already had one true love, and that was Jack.

Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: "Maybe he’s not the marrying kind" - Alma Jr - Did she know?
« Reply #75 on: Mar 28, 2008, 06:55 AM »
I think Alma Jr. did know...or at least suspected. After all, she saw for years how her father suddenly was happy right before and right after his trips with Jack. He'd go from the sullen brooding look, to smiles and joy and Alma Jr saw that only Jack made her dad feel that way. Only Jack made Ennis happy. So she must have suspected something, especially as she became a teenager. Besides, kids do pick up on things rather quickly. I think Junior had suspected something about her father and Jack since she was a child, and by the time Cassie came along she definitely knew. She knew Cassie didn't even stand a chance...her father already had one true love, and that was Jack.

hmm maybe junior was trying to more to protect cassie then anything i mean if she knew im sure she wouldnt want another woman to be made upset because her father was already in love with another man...

Offline tpe

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Re: "Maybe he’s not the marrying kind" - Alma Jr - Did she know?
« Reply #76 on: Mar 28, 2008, 08:03 AM »
hmm maybe junior was trying to more to protect cassie then anything i mean if she knew im sure she wouldnt want another woman to be made upset because her father was already in love with another man...

Yes, this was how I interpreted it...


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Re: "Maybe he’s not the marrying kind" - Alma Jr - Did she know?
« Reply #77 on: Mar 28, 2008, 09:44 AM »
hmm maybe junior was trying to more to protect cassie then anything i mean if she knew im sure she wouldnt want another woman to be made upset because her father was already in love with another man...

Yes! She had already seen how unhappy her mother had been in her marriage, so she didn't want Cassie to be married to Ennis only to find out that the marriage is a lie and a cover and Ennis's true love is really a man named Jack. It wasn't worth it for Junior to see her father go throught that whole cycle again, and see Cassie go through the same thing that Alma had gone through. Junior was therefore protecting both her father because she knew who his true love was, and protecting Cassie because she didn't want Cassie to be heart-broken from unrequited love, since Jr. knew the real person her father truly loved was Jack.

Offline smartestsonia

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Re: "Maybe he’s not the marrying kind" - Alma Jr - Did she know?
« Reply #78 on: Sep 21, 2008, 02:32 AM »
Alma Jr. loved her dad alot and also wantd to live with him...i dont think her mom told her anything..that was a shock for alma seeing Ennis with Jack..she would want to protect her daughters from that..i feel ama Jr. grew up thinking that her dad had some issues..what it was she was not sure....

she saw the way Jack came to meet Ennis after the divorce ..so must have suspected that something is going on.but was not sure what...then when she saw her dad with cassie she felt that its just a replacement.,..he dint love her...she knew that her dad wanted to be with Jack or atleast if not that she atleast knew that her dad had a soft corner for him and defintely is not marriage types...

Offline atalley

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Re: "Maybe he’s not the marrying kind" - Alma Jr - Did she know?
« Reply #79 on: Sep 21, 2008, 10:38 PM »
I think Alma Jr. did know...or at least suspected. After all, she saw for years how her father suddenly was happy right before and right after his trips with Jack. He'd go from the sullen brooding look, to smiles and joy and Alma Jr saw that only Jack made her dad feel that way. Only Jack made Ennis happy. So she must have suspected something, especially as she became a teenager. Besides, kids do pick up on things rather quickly. I think Junior had suspected something about her father and Jack since she was a child, and by the time Cassie came along she definitely knew. She knew Cassie didn't even stand a chance...her father already had one true love, and that was Jack.
     

 
                                                                                                                                                       I think this makes the most sense.  Also, I'm sure she knows why Ennis asks her "This Kurt...he loves you?"  I believe the tears in both of their eyes are acknowledging "yes, he loves me"  &  (unspoken) "Just as I know you loved Jack".       

Offline tpe

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Re: "Maybe he’s not the marrying kind" - Alma Jr - Did she know?
« Reply #80 on: Sep 22, 2008, 08:32 AM »
Alma Jr. loved her dad alot and also wantd to live with him...i dont think her mom told her anything..that was a shock for alma seeing Ennis with Jack..she would want to protect her daughters from that..i feel ama Jr. grew up thinking that her dad had some issues..what it was she was not sure....

she saw the way Jack came to meet Ennis after the divorce ..so must have suspected that something is going on.but was not sure what...then when she saw her dad with cassie she felt that its just a replacement.,..he dint love her...she knew that her dad wanted to be with Jack or atleast if not that she atleast knew that her dad had a soft corner for him and defintely is not marriage types...

I also think that Alma didn't tell her childern directly about their father, but it is likely that the children would have suspected, especially after the Thanksgiving scene.  It is hard to imagine that Monroe didn't know at some level about Ennis, and perhaps the children would have heard snippets or veiled references in conversations between their parents that they would later understand...

I do suspect that part of the reason why Jr. was not so thrilled about the affair with Cassie is that she already sort of suspected Ennis's true nature, and that he really didn't love Cassie.  I interpret the "He's not the marrying kind" comment to be a veiled reference.


Offline Mahogany

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Re: "Maybe he’s not the marrying kind" - Alma Jr - Did she know?
« Reply #81 on: Oct 01, 2014, 06:14 PM »
Alma Jr. knew for sure, maybe at first she didn't knew that her father loves Jack because she was very young and didn't understand much about love, but she knew what they did up in the mountains and that made her father happy.

She asked Ennis to talk about Rodeo in thanksgiving dinner, but she never asked anywhere or anytime about his fishing trips or his friend because she knew that would be uncomfortable.

She was smart enough to notice that her father never bring any fish home and how miserable her mother was every time Ennis went to "fish" with Jack.

Offline bluemountainsky

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Re: "Maybe he’s not the marrying kind" - Alma Jr - Did she know?
« Reply #82 on: Oct 01, 2014, 09:02 PM »
When she was younger, she knew something. Kids sometimes know! When she was just a little kid, she saw her father go off on these trips, and right before he went on one of his trips was the only time she ever saw him happy. Then when she 11 she saw Jack and how he hugged and touched her father. She began putting the pieces of the puzzle together. Also, after her mother married Monroe, she probably heard them talking about her father sometimes. Alma told Monroe for sure. Therefore Junior and her sister, like all kids, would overhear conversations sometimes. By the time she was a teenager, she knew 100% that her father was in a relationship with a man. She tells Cassie off because she knows her father has been living a lie all these years. She sees how unhappy he is with a woman, and she basically tells Cassie "don't waste your time", when she says "he's not the marrying kind".

She knew why her father wasn't "the marrying kind"...it's because he could never be in love with a woman, and hence any marriage he would have would be a lie and wouldn't work out. Junior knew Jack was the REAL person her father was married to. Of course, it couldn't be an official marriage, but she knew the relationship he had with Jack was that of lovers, not just fishing buddies, friends. She knew they weren't just two guys who go fishing together, there was something far more to their relationship. At the end, when she tells Ennis that she is getting married, she has a look on her face when he asks her "does he love you?" She looked like she was thinking "Yes, he loves me, like Jack loves you, daddy." I believe Alma Jr. got closer to her father over the years. She was a lot like him, they were both shy, introverted people, and she could relate to him much more than she could to her mother.

 She understood that he had a private life that was off limits, like children do. But then when she grew into an adult, and Ennis became more accepting of himself, I am sure they talked to each other about Jack. All his life, Ennis shared how he felt about Jack with no one, because he thought they would be ashamed of him if he did, but that all changed when he met Jack's mother. She was the first person who knew approved of his relationship with Jack, and that made him realize many things he should have years ago. He stopped being so ashamed of who he was and his relationship with Jack. By the time Junior was grown-up, he could be much more open with her about the truth. She understood, and became the second person in his life to approve. Ennis learned that there are people out there who are not homophobic and who don't look at his relationship with Jack as wrong, Jack's mother and his daughter Alma Jr were like teachers for him.
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