Topic: Why do you think that Ennis is the "Bad Boy"?

[jerasjr]

Am personally getting tired of hearing all the "bad" things that Jack did.  Did not view Ennis as sympathetically as so many did.
Have some thoughts on this, but am under time constraints at the moment, so if you have some comments, go ahead.

[Rønnaug]

I can think of a few things

1) marrying Alma after falling in love with someone else
2)keeping Jack hooked and not giving him ANYthing of what he wants
3) going into ANOTHER relationship he isn't really committed to, Cassie, when he is still in love with someone else
4) leaving Jack that morning and not saying anything, actually he was going to sneak of without seeing Jack at all
5) not having the courage to ask Jack to wait until he had sent his daughters home ehn Jack drives all that way after Ennis' divorce

I like Ennis and I think alot of this isn't really his fault but I don't think these are very nice things to do...

[Patriot1]

Am personally getting tired of hearing all the "bad" things that Jack did.  Did not view Ennis as sympathetically as so many did.
Have some thoughts on this, but am under time constraints at the moment, so if you have some comments, go ahead.

What bad things did Jack do?  What bad things did either of them do for that matter?  You can't write that and just leave without an explanation of what you mean!     I never really liked Ennis.  It took several viewings before I like him and Jack.  I discovered the reason was because I am Ennis and I didn't like admitting that.  But, what do you mean?

[NoReins]

I think they both do some bad things, if you mean bad in terms of having a relationship and making it work (Jack going to Mexico and having a thing with Randall, Ennis for a lot of the reasons that Esme mentioned above) - and maybe Ennis is slightly more guilty than Jack in this respect because of his refusal to face up to what he's feeling, but there's nothing that makes me dislike either character.

[Rønnaug]

but there's nothing that makes me dislike either character.

neither do I

[bubbaluna]

Frankly I don't think Jack did anything wrong at all in the context of his relationship with Ennis. He gave 100% of himself to Ennis and their love and was willing to leave his wife, his son, his "comfortable" life to be with Ennis at any time in any way he could.

Ennis did the best he could but could not handle the relationship beyond a few "fishing trips" a year. I don't know that this makes him bad but certainly makes him less committed to the relationship than Jack. He (Ennis) had valid reasons for this, but nonetheless he wasn't as strong in the relationship.

Both could and probably should be faulted for having married (I know this...I am living it). Marriage cannot make you straight and cannot hide you from what you are. So as someone said earlier getting married might be perceived as one of the "bad" (I hate that word) actions that both Ennis and Jack took in their lives.

Ennis didn't want to hurt Cassie but he did. he should NEVER have let that relationship get farther than friendship. He knew very well at that point that he wasn't capable of anything more than friendship with Cassie and that she wanted marriage.

As for Randall and Jack...if anything happened I would imagine it was nothing more than physical. Jack would have run back to Ennis in a second if Ennis wanted him.

[johnboy]

All of the above, what really gets me is everytime i watch the movie and see them going their seperate ways at the end of the summer, jack asks ennis if he's going to come back next summer and ennis says "see ya around them"

I just want to punch him on the nose.

[Rønnaug]

"bad" (I hate that word)

As a woman i would definatly think a man BAD if he did to me what Ennis did to Cassie and men have done so, and I have thought them bad

[bubbaluna]

All of the above, what really gets me is everytime i watch the movie and see them going their seperate ways at the end of the summer, jack asks ennis if he's going to come back next summer and ennis says "see ya around them"

I just want to punch him on the nose.

I agree..there are many instances like this when Ennis seems so insensitive and cold...the part where I really dislike Ennis the most is what I described above...after the divorce when Jack drives all the way up to Riverton to see him.......I want to do more then punch him in the nose!

[MississaugaRed]

Am personally getting tired of hearing all the "bad" things that Jack did.  Did not view Ennis as sympathetically as so many did.
Have some thoughts on this, but am under time constraints at the moment, so if you have some comments, go ahead.

hummm..  can open, worms everywhere!! 

Jerasjr, you're going to get some interesting feedback on this gem, no doubt about it.


I too sometimes find it hard to be sympathetic to Ennis, although I try not to be too harsh on him because you do see that he's suffering so much.

For me, I pity Ennis greatly, but Jack breaks my heart.  Maybe because Ennis appears to sabotage any chance they have for happiness, (as Johnboy notes with the "see ya around" comment ) whether out of fear, denial, stubbornness, whatever.  I'm sure he was a seething mass of contradicting emotions that confused him to the point where he just couldn't take those important steps forward. 

But his problems become Jack's because Jack ties his whole world up in Ennis.  Every time Ennis denies happiness for himself, he's denying it to Jack, too, which is why Jack's situation is the more heartbreaking of the two (IMO).

We label their actions "good" or "bad" from the distance of hindsight, never actually having to live their lives.  Both Ennis and Jack end up making choices that might be labelled "bad" but honestly, putting yourself in their positions, in that time and place, forgetting for a moment options available to an urban dweller in 2006, no choices were easy for them.  They both did the best they could, being who they were, when they were.

Having said that ... I always end up with a kind of frustrated affection for Ennis. 

One habit of his that makes me want to kick him is how he gets so nervous about being seen with Jack.  For that reunion kiss, he looks around first before pulling Jack into the stairwell (understandable), then when he's ready to stop, he looks around nervously again as he holds Jack off from continuing. 

But the worst has got to be in the divorce misunderstanding scene.  Poor Jack drives 14 hours to see him, thinking it had been Ennis's unwillingness to end his marriage that had kept the two of them apart before, only to find out that wasn't the critical factor at all.  And to make matters worse, as Ennis is giving Jack his muddled reasons for turning him away, he gets completely distracted by a truck passing by in the distance, so that his voice trails off to nothing.  Ennis doesn't even give Jack his full attention as he's crushing his dreams.

You see light dawning and hope dying in Jack's eyes; Ennis is not only fearful of physical reprisals from this relationship, he is on a deeper level ashamed of it.  I think (and many may disagree, it's just a feeling I get) that Ennis is as fearful of being labeled a "queer" as he is of being killed for it.  And I believe that it was that sense of shame projected onto him by Ennis, in addition to the stark rejection, that sent Jack to Mexico that day.  This to me is Ennis's least forgivable act, because of the pain it inflicted on Jack  ...  although part of me feels sorry for Ennis too. (Gee, maybe I'm as conflicted as Ennis was???)

Now I'm going to go out on a limb and go against a common opinion I've heard expressed by some "friends" who saw BBM ...  I don't fault either Jack or Ennis for their marriages.  I don't think either married as a "beard" since neither man identified themselves as "queer" at that time.  Marriage and a family was what both men were raised to feel was expected of them in life.  They didn't have an alternative lifestyle available to them, either, in that time and place, not one they could live comfortably with.  (not in any way suggesting that the marriags weren't horrible mistakes, or that their wives didn't deserve better, only suggesting that holding Jack and Ennis as complete villians for it may be over simplifying the issue since they dind't set out intentionaly deceive ... whole other topic!)

Their other relationships, Randall and Cassie, likely happened out of sheer loneliness, which I know doesn't make it right, only maybe understandable and very, very sad.

Regardless, as others have stated ... we love both these men as much for their flaws as their strengths.  They were (are?) only human, after all.

See..  as noted ... worms everywhere!

Looking forward to seeing more of the responses you get to this, Jerasjr; should be interesting reading!  

[bubbaluna]

"bad" (I hate that word)

As a woman i would definatly think a man BAD if he did to me what Ennis did to Cassie and men have done so, and I have thought them bad

I would have to agree with you on that.....

[bubbaluna]

Loved your post...many valid points...Mississaugared

Being labeled a queer in the 1960s was a pretty terrible thing to happen to a guy..especially one who was a cowboy and as masculine as Ennis...so I think you are right on there about Ennis fear of that...

I do think (and agree) that both Jack and Ennis got married because they thought that was what expected of them and they certainly did love their wives in their own way.....but NOT in the way they loved each other....I know I go out on a limb here but I do understand this very well ...as I said....I am living this still....

And you are right that the choices available to ANYONE in the 60s and 70s are far different from those available now for any type of same sex lifestyle. For the most part it was unheard of.....

But (and this is probably OT) there is one thing they DID have...and that was each other....amidst the pain, anguish, confusion, fear, and conflict they must have known they had a love so strong that it truly would never die.....(now I sound like a song...sorry)...anyway better stop...this hits too close to home

[Rønnaug]

Bad isn't the same as evil imo. I agree with alot of what MississaugaRed said, and it isn't black or white...but No matter what circumstanses you live under you still have free will, and Ennis was to much of a coward to truly look at what he had, and be man enough to stand up for it..He was scared, and that made him make bad decissions

[jerasjr]

Sorry Patriot that I didn't have time to post what I was thinking at the moment, but as I said, was under time constraints and had to leave.  But it is interesting to see what has been posted so far.  I offered a subject and there are evidently people who have something to say.  Esme in particular stated some of the things that I would have.
My reason for starting this thread is that one reads Jack... went to Mexico, met Randall, flirted with the rodeo clown, etc... and I get the feeling that many see Jack as "bad" -even a slut - because of these actions.
But I say good for Jack, he acted - he attempted to live his life - even with the burden of Ennis' love.
Ended up feeling that for whatever reason, Ennis was selfish *- with himself, with his family,with Jack.  He could not get past the child, and become more of an adult. 
*Modified this, think egocentric would be better used here.

[MississaugaRed]

But (and this is probably OT) there is one thing they DID have...and that was each other....amidst the pain, anguish, confusion, fear, and conflict they must have known they had a love so strong that it truly would never die.....(now I sound like a song...sorry)...anyway better stop...this hits too close to home

May be OT but extremely valid, Bubbaluna!  It occurred to me as I was thinking of some of the things that were bothering me that if the boys had been as critical of each other as we're getting the opportunity to do here, they would never have stayed together for 20 years. ()

But .. we can pick at parts of their relationship and still value it.

No, Ennis wasn't able to get past his fear to find real happiness, and yes, Jack's impulsiveness & loneliness, his willingness to take risks in order to experience real life, may have led to a few reckless choices; ultimately, as Esme stated, there was free will in all their actions, good and bad.

For example ... can anyone give a reason why Jack (and you know how much I adore Jack) didn't just leave Lureen and set up in Lighting Flat, regardless of what Ennis was doing??  Maybe if Jack set up a place for Ennis to go to - not some "pretend" place, but a actual done-deal - then maybe, just maybe, Ennis might have been tempted there like a bee to honey.  I always fault Ennis for turning Jack away all the time.  Did Ennis's complete negativity about the chances of them being able to ranch together erode Jack's confidence in being able to do that for himself??   :-\  I'm really confused on this issue, as you can tell.

And Jerasjr is right - a lot of what you read outside of places like this will focus on the way that Jack want after what he wanted in life like it was a negative thing, as if you become a candidate for Sainthood by denying yourself a shot at what you want most.  What's with that??

[bubbaluna]

And Jerasjr is right - a lot of what you read outside of places like this will focus on the way that Jack want after what he wanted in life like it was a negative thing, as if you become a candidate for Sainthood by denying yourself a shot at what you want most.  What's with that??

[/b]


I find this totally baffling as well...If you don't go after what YOU want...no one is going to be standing there giving it to you...that's for sure!!! Jack was first and foremost human but he had a lot of love and HAD Ennis responded with some hope for their relationship to GROW I believe Jack would have stayed faithful to him 100%....Jack is definitely who I am!

[Rønnaug]

And had Jack been a woman he would most certainly hava had a big Scarlet A on his chest

[bubbaluna]

And had Jack been a woman he would most certainly hava had a big Scarlet A on his chest

but do you think that would have been right?

[Valandil Eluch]

Guys why we have to categorized them as bad or good i don't think it is fair for them they were just humans like us and as humans are capable of doing mistakes yes it is right both of them did them and we can be identified with one of them and punish the other for his actions but they did what they thought it was correct. i don't see them as a bad guys for me they have their right of make mistake which of us is perfect? No one is and then why we want to find a bad boy here?

[Rønnaug]

And had Jack been a woman he would most certainly hava had a big Scarlet A on his chest

but do you think that would have been right?

No I don't...but women that behave as "predators" are always looked on as scarlet women or hores... depending on what era u'r in... this comes from the fact that Women aren't supposed to go after a man, and I am guessing in some circles a man isn't supposed to go after anohter man either...

[chameau]

I just found this thread, very interresting one, very good posts.

My 2 cents,

Ennis is not the bad boy, he's just the victim of his education and that trauma he got when his dad shown him the corpse of Earl.  Of course everyone that will come across him during the 20 years of his affair with Jack will suffer but it's not happening because he's bad, he is lost and d*mned scared.  He starts to change at the very end of the movie only when he finally accepts to attend Junior's wedding but, it's too late he lost Jack.  :'(

Jack is not a bad boy either.

[bubbaluna]

And had Jack been a woman he would most certainly hava had a big Scarlet A on his chest

but do you think that would have been right?

No I don't...but women that behave as "predators" are always looked on as scarlet women or hores... depending on what era u'r in... this comes from the fact that Women aren't supposed to go after a man, and I am guessing in some circles a man isn't supposed to go after anohter man either...

well let's make THIS forum a starting place to change all that!!!

[Rønnaug]

Let's   but with films like Basic instinct getting a rerun...well...

but that was OT

Chameau, I agree that neither of htem are bad, thay aer not doing this intentionally to hurt someone I feel, but it is no effort on Ennis part to change this... damn, his most memorable line in the entire film is

IF YOU CAN'T FIX IT YOU GOTTA STAND IT

[chameau]

Let's   but with films like Basic instinct getting a rerun...well...

but that was OT

Chameau, I agree that neither of htem are bad, thay aer not doing this intentionally to hurt someone I feel, but it is no effort on Ennis part to change this... damn, his most memorable line in the entire film is

IF YOU CAN'T FIX IT YOU GOTTA STAND IT

Yes, he's scared to death, look at his reaction when Alma out's him in the kitchen.

[jerasjr]

See Carlos, think that this is what this thread is bringing out - exactly what you say, that they shouldn't be labeled as either bad or good - by their actions.  But before this, there was a bit of Jack bashing in other threads... to chat to try to fathom why things happened or what either one did is one thing... to label what they did as bad or good is not necessary and neither is labeling the person as bad or good.

[bubbaluna]

See Carlos, think that this is what this thread is bringing out - exactly what you say, that they shouldn't be labeled as either bad or good - by their actions.  But before this, there was a bit of Jack bashing in other threads... to chat to try to fathom why things happened or what either one did is one thing... to label what they did as bad or good is not necessary and neither is labeling the person as bad or good.

WHO would DARE bash Jack Twist??

[BBBOY]

Leave it to you jerasjr to start such an interesting and intelligent thread. I, for the most part, don't look at those other forums simply because they do not seem to have kind and truly caring people that we have here, so their take on good or bad and the take on good or bad I hear from some critics and people I have talked to about the movie mean nothing to me.

That being said, it appears that the general concensus here is that neither Jack nor Ennis were bad. If each of us looks back on our individual lives we will probably see things we regret having done and some of those things, in today's light may look bad. I know I regret some of the things I have done in my life. But, if you study closely the context in which they were done I think you will find that at the time there were positive motivations for doing them. I hope I am not being to vague here. I believe that men and women are inherently good. Evil is not the natural state of humans much as it may seem to the contrary in the world we live in today.

It is almost impossible for us living in the year 2006 too look back and fully understand what Ennis and Jack's world was like. I don't think any of us grew up in rural Wyoming in the 1950's and 60's. Some of us did grow up in small towns and do have a good idea of what it was like however. None of us can fully comprehend the social rules that controlled these two star-crossed lovers. They each did what they had to do to survive in the world they were given.  It took the brilliance of Annie Proulx to find, dissect, comprend and give us the two men we all love so dearly, warts and all. There is no good or bad here, only what is.

[NoReins]

It is almost impossible for us living in the year 2006 too look back and fully understand what Ennis and Jack's world was like. I don't think any of us grew up in rural Wyoming in the 1950's and 60's. Some of us did grow up in small towns and do have a good idea of what it was like however. None of us can fully comprehend the social rules that controlled these two star-crossed lovers. They each did what they had to do to survive in the world they were given.  It took the brilliance of Annie Proulx to find, dissect, comprend and give us the two men we all love so dearly, warts and all. There is no good or bad here, only what is.

Well said BBBoy. There is no praise high enough for what Annie Proulx gave us in Ennis and Jack - two characters who have become so real to us that we care enough to try to sort out their problems

[chameau]

Very well said BBBOY, thank you!

[Rønnaug]

Very good points BBBoy but like Galadriel says "even the smallest person can change the course of the future"...and it is the thought of I can't make a difference that stops so many things from changing, and I think that the difference between Jack and Ennis, rural wyoming in the 60's or not, was that Jack made an effort to go after what he wanted even tho he probably knew it would get him in trouble.

And honestly...I don't think Ennis would have been braver had thay met now...I don't think it was merely the time thay were living in