Author Topic: Between shooting sheep and shooting elk (Read 34748 times)

aimi15 · « **on:** May 27, 2006, 12:12 PM »

Hi, i don't know if this has already been discussed, i can't find it so here goes -

I just got to wondering what went on after the conversation about shooting the sheep and the cut to Ennis shooting the elk. In particular after Jack uttering the line 'Well i won't'.

Immediately after that we see Ennis with the elk in his sights, and my main question is this -

Did Jack have to cajole Ennis into shooting the elk, or once he had made it clear he wasn't sticking with beans did Ennis make the decision straightaway to shoot the elk for him, and if so why?

Was is the thought of listening to Jack moaning about something else? Did Ennis feel obligated because in a way he felt responsible they had nothing but beans to eat? Or did he do it for some other reason? Affection maybe? Acceptance from Jack?

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #1 on:** May 27, 2006, 03:09 PM »

I always took that as a sign of Ennis trying to give to or provide for Jack. Jack says after Ennis shoots the elk "Let's get a move on. Don't want the game and fish to catch us with no elk." Ennis broke the rules, if not the law, by doing that. So, I think it was out of affection for Jack.

Rønnaug · « **Reply #2 on:** May 27, 2006, 03:12 PM »

I think so too LJN, I think it was something Ennis did FOR Jack, same as when he ordered soup even tho he didn't like it...

justlikethisalways · « **Reply #3 on:** May 27, 2006, 03:14 PM »

I always assumed that after that scene, Jack had probably tried to shoot an elk (or some other game) on his own but missed, probably more than once. This is because of Ennis' remark "Was gettin tired of your dumb-ass missin."

I'd also agree that Ennis felt bad that they had only beans to eat, so much so that he went and willingly broke the rules.

shieldmaid · « **Reply #4 on:** May 27, 2006, 03:24 PM »

Yes, I love this scene because we see Ennis trying to take care of Jack, IMO. But they're also working together at doing something not strictly work-related, which shows how well they go together.

welshwitch · « **Reply #5 on:** May 27, 2006, 04:07 PM »

And it's symbolic- Ennis, who always has a sense of duty and wants to keep the rules, has already heard Jack complain about them.Now just for once he's been transgressive and, this time, got away with it - they don't get caught by the authorities. Ennis has broken through one limit for Jack, which prepares the way for further actions he wouldn't have contemplated before meeting Jack. It's as though Jack is leading Ennis to think for himself and make his own decisions, even if they aren't the "right" ones - but Ennis never learns to be like Jack, that's why he always stays in Riverton, works to make his child support payments and refuses to take the step that would let him live with Jack.

christie wood · « **Reply #6 on:** May 27, 2006, 04:15 PM »

Hi Aimi

What a great thread!

The first time I saw this scene, I got the impression that even though Jack had the last word by saying "well I wont" that Ennis had pretty much made his mind up that he wasnt going to risk getting caught and that he'd just put up with beans - so obviously a metaphor of how Ennis was in his life, just sticking with what he knew, what he accepted as his lot in life. But Jack was the dreamer, the risk taker and after I thought about it, I realised that Ennis obviously did it to please Jack, but Ennis had to make the "sick of your dumb ass missin'" comment to cover up any obvious signs that it was an indication that he was softening towards Jack in a romantic sense. I often wonder what was said in the missing scene inbetween, and how it was approached - I now think that Jack probably told Ennis what he was going to do, and Ennis felt rather embarrassed by not taking part - after all, if Jack had gone and shot a sheep or elk on his own, was he just going to sit there next to Ennis and eat it, not offer any to Ennis, and would Ennis accept?

So I think there's a combination of Ennis not wanting to appear stubborn and foolish, and secretly wanting to do something for Jack, even if it was breaking the rules. They were part of a little breaking of rules, which was exciting, broke the monotony of camp life, and gave them some good meat to get their teeth into. And to top it all, Jack got Ennis to do what he wanted after all, and Ennis found a friend where none was expected.

NoReins · « **Reply #7 on:** May 27, 2006, 04:51 PM »

Quote from: justlikethisalways on May 27, 2006, 03:14 PM

I always assumed that after that scene, Jack had probably tried to shoot an elk (or some other game) on his own but missed, probably more than once. This is because of Ennis' remark "Was gettin tired of your dumb-ass missin."

I think that when they came across the elk, Jack probably took the lead (like he did in everything) and had a few shots of his own at it. But then, as we see from the coyote-shooting scene, Jack is too impetuous and just fires the shot off without really taking aim, so he would almost always miss. As in the coyote scene, this leads to frustration on Jack's part - so Ennis takes over. I'm pretty sure that Ennis only originally went with Jack on the hunting expedition so he could watch Jack's back (in case the game people were watching maybe)

You know, as I type this, I'm actually thinking something weird....Jack is so impetuous in things like this, jumping in without any preamble....which is exactly how Ennis behaves in FNIT, contrary to everything we see of him before that. Sorry, I know that's OT, but I just thought of it.....

tpe · « **Reply #8 on:** May 27, 2006, 05:12 PM »

Yes, it had been discussed in some old threads (about the times Ennis shows his love for Jack) that this is an instance where Ennis expresses his feelings. The same is true with the "I'm sick of beans" episode, as discussed in the old thread.

To hide or repress his own happiness at Jack's appreciation for the elk, Ennis had to resort to the excuse 'tired of your dumb-ass missin'. He just could not bring out his happiness at seeing how he had won Jack's admiration and affection in this instance. The same holds when he pushes Jack away at the end of the scene. He had to appear tough to Jack, even though he was probably melting inside.

christie wood · « **Reply #9 on:** May 27, 2006, 06:12 PM »

Quote from: tpe on May 27, 2006, 05:12 PM

He had to appear tough to Jack, even though he was probably melting inside.

oh tpe, now I'm melting inside!!

What a lovely way of expressing that scene.

tpe · « **Reply #10 on:** May 27, 2006, 06:45 PM »

Quote from: christie wood on May 27, 2006, 06:12 PM

Quote from: tpe on May 27, 2006, 05:12 PM
He had to appear tough to Jack, even though he was probably melting inside.

oh tpe, now I'm melting inside!!

What a lovely way of expressing that scene.

Thanks Christie. Beneath that tough exterior, we do know that there is a softness/tenderness in Ennis's heart. Ennis did indeed show it in many wonderful and subtle ways in his love for Jack.

aimi15 · « **Reply #11 on:** May 27, 2006, 07:03 PM »

Thank you all for your interesting replies!

It's wonderful to get ideas bounced around like this, and it has given me plenty to think about.

One of my little theories with this scene (and believe me, i have theories coming out of my ears), is that Ennis maybe felt obligated to shoot the elk. After all, at this point he is camp tender. Jack goes out, looks out for the sheep, commutes four hours a day, comes back to camp and eats what Ennis has cooked. Ennis is provider. He feels he has to provide Jack with something to eat, and if Jack won't eat beans then it's up to Ennis to find an alternative.

I really feel for Ennis. His sense of obligation and duty haunt him throughout the time we see him. That's not always a bad thing IMHO, i think Jack did appreciate the little things Ennis would do for him, and these little gestures opened the way for their relationship to take effect.

To me though Ennis must have had genuine regard for Jack at this point, to go break the rules that he was quite determined to stick to. Providing for Jack seemed to win out over everything else.

tpe · « **Reply #12 on:** May 27, 2006, 07:09 PM »

Quote from: aimi15 on May 27, 2006, 07:03 PM

I really feel for Ennis. His sense of obligation and duty haunt him throughout the time we see him. That's not always a bad thing IMHO, i think Jack did appreciate the little things Ennis would do for him, and these little gestures opened the way for their relationship to take effect.

To me though Ennis must have had genuine regard for Jack at this point, to go break the rules that he was quite determined to stick to. Providing for Jack seemed to win out over everything else.

Duty adorned with affection ceases to be an obligation. I feel that for Ennis at that point, his duty was also an act of love.

Thanks also aimi15.

aimi15 · « **Reply #13 on:** May 27, 2006, 07:12 PM »

Duty adorned with affection ceases to be an obligation.

Thank you tpe, truer words were never spoken.

CrimsonSky · « **Reply #14 on:** May 27, 2006, 07:12 PM »

I don't really have anything to add atm, but just wanted to say thanks to everyone for all your posts,really enjoyed reading them

tpe · « **Reply #15 on:** May 27, 2006, 07:23 PM »

Quote from: CrimsonSky on May 27, 2006, 07:12 PM

I don't really have anything to add atm, but just wanted to say thanks to everyone for all your posts,really enjoyed reading them

CrimsonSky and aimi15, I am constantly amazed of how much nuance we get from scenes like this one. Simple wonderful.

One cheers. The other smiles. Both are in love.

aimi15 · « **Reply #16 on:** May 27, 2006, 07:28 PM »

Look at how Ennis has that secretly pleased little smile because he's just heard Jack laugh! Isn't that gorgeous?

CrimsonSky · « **Reply #17 on:** May 27, 2006, 07:35 PM »

Quote from: tpe on May 27, 2006, 07:23 PM

Quote from: CrimsonSky on May 27, 2006, 07:12 PM
I don't really have anything to add atm, but just wanted to say thanks to everyone for all your posts,really enjoyed reading them

CrimsonSky and aimi15, I am constantly amazed of how much nuance we get from scenes like this one. Simple wonderful.

One cheers. The other smiles. Both are in love.

Aww, I love how excited they are, like a couple of kids playing a prank on someone, then hiding behind a fence to watch

Actually, it's just occured to me, the total lack of jealousy, or resentment, on Jack's part, when Ennis succeeds where he failed, in shooting the elk. You'd think most guys would feel that their nose had been put out of joint (especially as I get the impression it was Ennis's first shot that hit the elk), especially when you add Ennis's jibe about Jack's "dumb ass missing", but not Jack, he's just so proud of Ennis

Quote

aimi15 · « **Reply #18 on:** May 27, 2006, 07:44 PM »

Thta's a good point CrimsonSky, now you come to mention it. You're right, Jack is just SO happy for Ennis. Probably even admires him getting the elk with one shot, knowing that if he'd have tried there'd be rounds flying all over the place. Bless him. tpe - i LOVE this pic!

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #19 on:** May 27, 2006, 07:45 PM »

Yes Crimson Sky no jealously or resentment.
I always get a kick out of this scene. Ennis breaks the rules for Jack and then Jack has to be Jack and make the comment about the Fish & Game catching them. I like how Ennis kind of shoves him- almost like he's thinking Jack F'n Twist.

shieldmaid · « **Reply #20 on:** May 27, 2006, 07:55 PM »

I love the fact in this scene, too, that they both touch each other. Sure, it's a push in both cases, but it's happy and affectionate, and probably a preamble to upcoming events. Smiles, laughter, physical contact--the joy of being together.

Rønnaug · « **Reply #21 on:** May 28, 2006, 03:26 AM »

Quote from: aimi15 on May 27, 2006, 07:28 PM

Look at how Ennis has that secretly pleased little smile because he's just heard Jack laugh! Isn't that gorgeous?

Kinda like the one when he sees jack drive up after 4 years isn't it

welshwitch · « **Reply #22 on:** May 28, 2006, 07:48 AM »

There's also a conspiratorial in-this-together feel, like naughty kids, which forms a closer link betweeen them. In some ways scenes like this (and the wrestling one) are the sort of thing both probably missed when they were children.

christie wood · « **Reply #23 on:** May 30, 2006, 04:04 PM »

Quote from: aimi15 on May 27, 2006, 07:44 PM

Thta's a good point CrimsonSky, now you come to mention it. You're right, Jack is just SO happy for Ennis. Probably even admires him getting the elk with one shot, knowing that if he'd have tried there'd be rounds flying all over the place. Bless him. tpe - i LOVE this pic!

I'd never thought of it like that either. Good point! Jack was just so pleased that Ennis had shot the elk, and its just really wonderful to see that little bit of banter going on between them......oh, so much to see just from one small scene!!

christie wood · « **Reply #24 on:** May 30, 2006, 04:06 PM »

Quote from: shieldmaid on May 27, 2006, 07:55 PM

I love the fact in this scene, too, that they both touch each other. Sure, it's a push in both cases, but it's happy and affectionate, and probably a preamble to upcoming events. Smiles, laughter, physical contact--the joy of being together.

Oh yes Shieldmaid, i love that too. But any scenes where they touch each other I'm happy with!! Its very affectionate in the way they do it, but kind of "we're boys doing boys stuff" at the same time. Kind of weird for them, I suppose, knowing that there's growing affection between them, but they are still unsure of what steps to take next. I suppose shooting an elk is a kind of courting tradition, somewhere in the world.

Wyoming, for example.

Jennis · « **Reply #25 on:** Jun 07, 2006, 09:45 PM »

I think Ennis did it because he cared for Jack.He was always thinking ahead.If Jack had carried out his threat and shot one of the sheep,and it got back to Aguirre(don't know how,up there in the middle of nowhere.But this was Ennis' excuse for not shooting a sheep),then they would probably have lost their jobs for sure.Maybe Ennis had this fear not only of losing his job,but of being brought down off the mountain a lot sooner just as he was getting to know Jack.We all see how he reacted when they were told by Aguirre to come down,which i also think didn't really have a lot to do with the snow storm,but more likely because of what Aguirre had witnessed.Back on topic...

Ennis took a big risk killing the elk.It was probably out of season,and he could have been in a lot more trouble for that then the sheep.The pushing of each other in jest also gave them the opportunity to 'Touch' one another.

Just my own little theories

Jennis.x

tpe · « **Reply #26 on:** Jun 08, 2006, 07:11 AM »

Quote from: Jennis on Jun 07, 2006, 09:45 PM

I think Ennis did it because he cared for Jack.He was always thinking ahead.If Jack had carried out his threat and shot one of the sheep,and it got back to Aguirre(don't know how,up there in the middle of nowhere.But this was Ennis' excuse for not shooting a sheep),then they would probably have lost their jobs for sure.Maybe Ennis had this fear not only of losing his job,but of being brought down off the mountain a lot sooner just as he was getting to know Jack.We all see how he reacted when they were told by Aguirre to come down,which i also think didn't really have a lot to do with the snow storm,but more likely because of what Aguirre had witnessed.Back on topic...

Ennis took a big risk killing the elk.It was probably out of season,and he could have been in a lot more trouble for that then the sheep.The pushing of each other in jest also gave them the opportunity to 'Touch' one another.

Just my own little theories

Jennis.x

Jennis, I do think that this was precisely my opinion in my firat viewings of this scene. It is consistent with Ennis's quiet caring for Jack, as shown in the "No more Beans" episode. Remarkably consistent...

welshwitch · « **Reply #27 on:** Jun 08, 2006, 10:24 AM »

If Jack does a kind of courting ritual with Ennis, and he does, this then is Ennis's response - kind of like coming back with the dead dragon or the ogre's head if he were a knight errant.

tpe · « **Reply #28 on:** Jun 08, 2006, 10:52 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jun 08, 2006, 10:24 AM

If Jack does a kind of courting ritual with Ennis, and he does, this then is Ennis's response - kind of like coming back with the dead dragon or the ogre's head if he were a knight errant.

Wonderful analogy, welshwitch.

edgar · « **Reply #29 on:** Jun 08, 2006, 02:45 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on May 28, 2006, 07:48 AM

There's also a conspiratorial in-this-together feel, like naughty kids, which forms a closer link betweeen them. In some ways scenes like this (and the wrestling one) are the sort of thing both probably missed when they were children.

Yes, yes, yes.

Jack was an only child living in the middle of nowhere, and Ennis had distant (movie) or abusive (short story) older brother who wasn't the type to bond with Ennis...

I'm on one of my hobbyhorses now, but I see part of the unique beauty of this movie as the chance we see for two human beings to experience an awakening to human connection. Jack had his mother, it seems, and Ennis had Alma, but that was it. (And I'm not sure that either of those relationships were ideal: Jack's mom may have come around more after Jack's death; and Ennis was looking for a way out of homelessness by marrying Alma). Certainly neither of them had a good, close, comfortable affection with another *male*, which is important for boys' development.

After the first night of drinking and talking (according to the short story), Ennis thinks he had "never had such a good time in all his life, and felt like he could paw the white from the moon."(quoting from memory.) I find that very touching. The sort of friendship that most of us take for granted, or, in a pinch, that we could strike up for just one evening, is the sort of thing that Ennis treasures.

Personally, I see "falling in friendship" as just as beautiful a thing as "falling in love." (In Greek this would be falling in "phileo" vs. falling in "eros.") Two different kinds of love, but both very beautiful. And Ennis and Jack got to experience both that summer.

And later, perhaps, the deepest love, agape....