Topic: "where the bluebirds sing and there's a whiskey spring"

[shieldmaid]

Lately I keep thinking about this final way that Lureen describes Jack to Ennis on the phone.  I know we've heard Ennis himself use a similar phrase--when they're arguing by the stream, washing dishes--but it seems so tied to who Jack is.  But I guess I can see him both ways--practical, trying to make things work on an everyday level with Ennis ("what if you and me had a ranch, a little cow and calf operation? It'd be a sweet life"), but also a bit of a dreamer, wanting things to be better for them than they're likely ever to be.    I guess what I'm wondering is what everyone thinks about this: is Jack alone in having dreams for them, or do we see any evidence that Ennis fantasizes about their life together, too?  Is Jack totally unrealistic as this quote seems to imply, or did he have a more practical approach to their relationship than Ennis did?

For some reason this phrase always breaks my heart.  Poor Jack. 

[aimi15]

Something that always strikes me is that when Junior is asking if she can stay with Ennis, he lets her down gently - 'you know i ain't set up for that'. I like to think Ennis was in a way keeping himself available for Jack, just in case the dream 'ever came to pass'. That makes me think Ennis did have fantasies of his own, of a life together with Jack, and was keeping himself open to the possibility, even though he knew in his heart of hearts it would probably never happen. Very sad.
 :\'(

[NoReins]

I think in his own way Ennis does think about having a life with Jack - but his thoughts and dreams are forever clouded by the memories of what happened to Earl. I think it's more obvious from the short story than it is from the movie - when Ennis says "Took me about a year a figure out it was that I shouldn't have let you out a my sights", I think it shows that he's been dreaming for four years of what could have been, how they could have been together. Even in the movie, I think his choice of words suggest that he has thought about it - he has a whole series of retorts/excuses for why it can't be that way and he comes out with them so quickly that he can't just be reacting to Jack's suggestion of the sweet life.

I really do believe he's thought about it - but every time he does, all he sees is Earl in a ditch. By the time Jack mentions it, he can't separate the two thoughts - for Ennis the only equation he knows is "two guys living together = being killed by the men with tire irons"

My heart breaks for Jack every time we see his dreams dashed, but it breaks just as much, and maybe even more, for Ennis because nothing can ever take that image out of his mind.

And now I think I need to go and shut myself in the bathroom and have a cry :\'( :\'(

[welshwitch]

The two people who describe Jack in this way are people who feel little for him - Lureen and his father. Neither shows much sense of having an inner life, let alone an imagination. Jack has an imagination, and that's what lets him envisage something better. Ennis, I think, would like to imagine but is so repressed that he doesn't dare let himself - it's safer to stay within his comfort zone. Where Ennis might see a rainbow, Jack would want to find what lies beyond it.

And you're right - Jack isn't wildly impractical - his idea of the ranch isn't an impossible dream, except for Ennis's intransigence.

[christie wood]

You know what I wonder too about that phrase of Lureen's.  When she says it to Ennis, I wonder if Ennis remembers what he said to Jack that time about them living together in Texas "and whiskey will flow in the stream" (or something similar to that), and if he does, how he feels about it, knowing that Jack was just waiting for the word from Ennis, to say "lets live together", but it never came, but Jack always had his little dream of that sweet life.

And I agree with Aimi, regarding that scene between Ennis and Alma Jnr, when Ennis has to gently let down his daughter who wants to come and live with him.  I thought straightaway that his reason was a bluff and it was so he could up and go to Jack whenever, he wouldnt have wanted his daughter around to ask probing questions, even if it was only a couple of weeks a year.  (even when I think of that it breaks me heart.....imagine only meeting the love of your life for 14 days out of 365?  :\'().    Even though Ennis is the more troubled of the two with regards to accepting their relationship, I do too agree that Ennis probably had dreams over those 20 years about the life he could have with Jack if, in his mind, things were different....they were probably what kept him going all those years.  But there was always this image in his head of what would happen if they did get together, and it was that image that would continuely come back to haunt him.

God, I've really gone and made myself depressed now.     :\'(  :\'( Need to go and read Human Interest. 

[tpe]

Something that always strikes me is that when Junior is asking if she can stay with Ennis, he lets her down gently - 'you know i ain't set up for that'. I like to think Ennis was in a way keeping himself available for Jack, just in case the dream 'ever came to pass'. That makes me think Ennis did have fantasies of his own, of a life together with Jack, and was keeping himself open to the possibility, even though he knew in his heart of hearts it would probably never happen. Very sad.
 :\'(

This is quite lovely.  I had always assumed that Ennis was too realistic to have ever considered a joint life with Jack feasible.  I had assumed that the retort to Alma Jr. illustrated his unwillingness then to put himself and anyone in a position where they can get hurt.  This is why your comment touches me so deeply.

 

[tpe]

I think in his own way Ennis does think about having a life with Jack - but his thoughts and dreams are forever clouded by the memories of what happened to Earl. I think it's more obvious from the short story than it is from the movie - when Ennis says "Took me about a year a figure out it was that I shouldn't have let you out a my sights", I think it shows that he's been dreaming for four years of what could have been, how they could have been together. Even in the movie, I think his choice of words suggest that he has thought about it - he has a whole series of retorts/excuses for why it can't be that way and he comes out with them so quickly that he can't just be reacting to Jack's suggestion of the sweet life.

I really do believe he's thought about it - but every time he does, all he sees is Earl in a ditch. By the time Jack mentions it, he can't separate the two thoughts - for Ennis the only equation he knows is "two guys living together = being killed by the men with tire irons"

My heart breaks for Jack every time we see his dreams dashed, but it breaks just as much, and maybe even more, for Ennis because nothing can ever take that image out of his mind.

And now I think I need to go and shut myself in the bathroom and have a cry :\'( :\'(

I think I had said it before that Ennis intentionally resisted to have a shared life with Jack because he thought NOT having it was the best way to keep their love for each other intact and safe -- up in the mountains where no one can hurt or destroy it.  Ennis cared deeply enough for that love so that he wanted to protect it.  In an oblique  way, his refusal is a testament to his love.

When they were in the mountains, Ennis lived his dream of love.  I am sure that when he was in the plains, he constantly dreamed that dream.  It kept him alive, no matter how infrequent.  He was presumably celibate in the plains (perhaps he made love to Cassie, but this is not certain).  It did not matter to him.  HIas knowing that he and Jack will meet again in the mountains sustained him.  THis is also why I though Ennis in a sense died when the tire iron ended Jack's life.

[Rønnaug]

Something that always strikes me is that when Junior is asking if she can stay with Ennis, he lets her down gently - 'you know i ain't set up for that'. I like to think Ennis was in a way keeping himself available for Jack, just in case the dream 'ever came to pass'. That makes me think Ennis did have fantasies of his own, of a life together with Jack, and was keeping himself open to the possibility, even though he knew in his heart of hearts it would probably never happen. Very sad.
 :\'(

This is quite lovely.  I had always assumed that Ennis was too realistic to have ever considered a joint life with Jack feasible.  I had assumed that the retort to Alma Jr. illustrated his unwillingness then to put himself and anyone in a position where they can get hurt.  This is why your comment touches me so deeply.

 

One moment that comes to mind when thnking about wether or not ENnis had dreams about them is when he is shoveling asphalt. his co-worker is jabbing on and on and Ennis stops, rests on his shovel or what it is and looks out into the distance.. I think he is thinking about how it would be better to be with jack even tho this is before the cow and calf proposition

[shieldmaid]

When they were in the mountains, Ennis lived his dream of love.  I am sure that when he was in the plains, he constantly dreamed that dream.  It kept him alive, no matter how infrequent.  He was presumably celibate in the plains (perhaps he made love to Cassie, but this is not certain).  It did not matter to him.  HIas knowing that he and Jack will meet again in the mountains sustained him.  THis is also why I though Ennis in a sense died when the tire iron ended Jack's life.

That's such a beautiful way of putting it, tpe.  Ennis was just not as good as Jack at verbalizing things; perhaps for him his disappointment at their situation came out more in sarcasm or jokes than in real plans (i.e., "just sending up a prayer of thanks . . . for you forgetting to bring that harmonica") like Jack's.  Anyway, we can be pretty sure, I think, that Ennis didn't have any more relationships after Jack: "Jack, I swear. . . ."  For him the fantasy was a very private one. 

[tpe]

One moment that comes to mind when thnking about wether or not ENnis had dreams about them is when he is shoveling asphalt. his co-worker is jabbing on and on and Ennis stops, rests on his shovel or what it is and looks out into the distance.. I think he is thinking about how it would be better to be with jack even tho this is before the cow and calf proposition

Yes, that distracted look -- it was as if he was trying to see Brokeback Mountain in some distant horizon.  He probably thought Jack was there. 

That look -- he was most certainly dreaming...

[tpe]

That's such a beautiful way of putting it, tpe.  Ennis was just not as good as Jack at verbalizing things; perhaps for him his disappointment at their situation came out more in sarcasm or jokes than in real plans (i.e., "just sending up a prayer of thanks . . . for you forgetting to bring that harmonica") like Jack's.  Anyway, we can be pretty sure, I think, that Ennis didn't have any more relationships after Jack: "Jack, I swear. . . ."  For him the fantasy was a very private one. 

Yes, I do think that after Jack's death, he did in fact become a prisoner to that love.  Jack was both the lock and the key.  With Jack's death, there was no way out.

He didn't want out.

Their love lives entombed.

[aimi15]

One moment that comes to mind when thnking about wether or not ENnis had dreams about them is when he is shoveling asphalt. his co-worker is jabbing on and on and Ennis stops, rests on his shovel or what it is and looks out into the distance.. I think he is thinking about how it would be better to be with jack even tho this is before the cow and calf proposition

Yes, that distracted look -- it was as if he was trying to see Brokeback Mountain in some distant horizon.  He probably thought Jack was there. 

That look -- he was most certainly dreaming...

Wonderful theories! He looks a little like 'what am i doing here?'. I love to think he was dreaming of a life he could have had. Maybe he thought one day it could still happen, the more years than went by the harder it got to hold onto those dreams, even though in a sense later on, after the divorce he was freer to follow his heart?

Poor Ennis. And what a great thread!

[stacp]

The two people who describe Jack in this way are people who feel little for him - Lureen and his father. Neither shows much sense of having an inner life, let alone an imagination. Jack has an imagination, and that's what lets him envisage something better. Ennis, I think, would like to imagine but is so repressed that he doesn't dare let himself - it's safer to stay within his comfort zone. Where Ennis might see a rainbow, Jack would want to find what lies beyond it.

And you're right - Jack isn't wildly impractical - his idea of the ranch isn't an impossible dream, except for Ennis's intransigence.

Interesting how you compare Lureen and Jack's dad in the way they treated Jack.  Lureen thinks he's a dreamer who dreams about "where bluebirds sing" and "there's a whiskey stream."  Likewise, Jack's dad describes Jack as a man whose ideas "never come to pass."  Isn't this the exact same way Ennis treats Jack at that scene by the stream when Jack talks about Ennis moving to Texas?  Ennis says "you're a real thinker" and belittles Jack by saying "maybe it'll rain money from L.D. Newsome and whiskey will flow in the streets.   That's real smart Jack."  How hard it must have been for Jack to have Ennis treat him this way and cast aside his dreams.  I think when Ennis sits across the table from Mr. Twist at the end of the movie, Ennis sees a little of himself:  a sheltered, homophobic man, who didn't give Jack what he really wanted (don't get me wrong:  I Love Ennis and think he loved Jack dearly in his own way; this is just an observation).

Sorry if that was a little OT.  Back OT.     I think Ennis often thinks of the sweet life with Jack.  I think at the end when he writes that postcard and breaks things off with Cassie, he may be thinking that it could work with Jack.  I like to think so anyway.

[welshwitch]

Yes, you're right, stacp. But there's a difference - Lureen and Jack's father can't see, whereas Ennis won't. He's afraid to think about something so far beyond his experience that it seems like a fantasy.
There's also the fact that many of us have dreams which we don't want to try to turn into reality, because deep down we know they're better left as dreams - I sometimes think that had Jack and Ennis been able to live together the dream mught not have translated into reality in the long run, though even a less perfect existence than they envisioned would have been better than what they got. Depends on what you feel about compromises, I guess.

[donnaread]

at that scene by the stream when Jack talks about Ennis moving to Texas?  Ennis says "you're a real thinker" and belittles Jack by saying "maybe it'll rain money from L.D. Newsome and whiskey will flow in the streets.   That's real smart Jack."  How hard it must have been for Jack to have Ennis treat him this way and cast aside his dreams. 

This scene breaks my heart.  Look at Jack's face when Ennis is saying this to him...his head is cocked a little to the side as he listens to Ennis' tirade, and there's such a look of hurt on his face.  All I can think of to say is "Damn you, Ennis"   :\'(

Donna

[stacp]

at that scene by the stream when Jack talks about Ennis moving to Texas?  Ennis says "you're a real thinker" and belittles Jack by saying "maybe it'll rain money from L.D. Newsome and whiskey will flow in the streets.   That's real smart Jack."  How hard it must have been for Jack to have Ennis treat him this way and cast aside his dreams. 

This scene breaks my heart.  Look at Jack's face when Ennis is saying this to him...his head is cocked a little to the side as he listens to Ennis' tirade, and there's such a look of hurt on his face.  All I can think of to say is "Damn you, Ennis"   :\'(

Donna

I wanted to sock Ennis in the mouth during this scene (and the divorce scene, too).  Ennis had a lifetime to regret his words and actions after Jack's death.  Uh-oh.  I feel a breakdown moment coming on.   :\'(

[Kemmer]

at that scene by the stream when Jack talks about Ennis moving to Texas?  Ennis says "you're a real thinker" and belittles Jack by saying "maybe it'll rain money from L.D. Newsome and whiskey will flow in the streets.   That's real smart Jack."  How hard it must have been for Jack to have Ennis treat him this way and cast aside his dreams. 

This scene breaks my heart.  Look at Jack's face when Ennis is saying this to him...his head is cocked a little to the side as he listens to Ennis' tirade, and there's such a look of hurt on his face.  All I can think of to say is "Damn you, Ennis"   :\'(

Donna

I wanted to sock Ennis in the mouth during this scene (and the divorce scene, too).  Ennis had a lifetime to regret his words and actions after Jack's death.  Uh-oh.  I feel a breakdown moment coming on.   :\'(

When Ennis turned Jack away after the divorce, I thought that was the most thoughtless, cold thing he could have done.  He didn't even look up as Jack drove away.

[welshwitch]

Maybe lacking imagination and being unable to dream make you capable of coldness because you don't see how you're affecting others who aren't like you? One of the worst things about the storyis that Ennis can't even begin to envisage any other kind of life and simply dismisses Jack's suggestions as impractical/unrealistic when he's the one who makes them so.

I have a feeling that many of the people on here are dreamers or idealists or romantics and that's at least partly what unites us.

[donnaread]

When Ennis turned Jack away after the divorce, I thought that was the most thoughtless, cold thing he could have done.  He didn't even look up as Jack drove away.

It was cold, but in Ennis defense I think he just doesn't know what to do.  It hurt too much to watch Jack drive away, so he couldn't watch.  I think he was also somewhat ashamed of hurting Jack like that.  But his fear was stronger than all his other feelings.

Donna :\'(

[NoReins]

When Ennis turned Jack away after the divorce, I thought that was the most thoughtless, cold thing he could have done.  He didn't even look up as Jack drove away.

It was cold, but in Ennis defense I think he just doesn't know what to do.  It hurt too much to watch Jack drive away, so he couldn't watch.  I think he was also somewhat ashamed of hurting Jack like that.  But his fear was stronger than all his other feelings.

Donna :\'(

Donna, I read this thread earlier and thought I would come back and defend Ennis....but you've taken the words right out of my mouth. That's exactly what I was going to say

[shieldmaid]

When Ennis turned Jack away after the divorce, I thought that was the most thoughtless, cold thing he could have done.  He didn't even look up as Jack drove away.

It was cold, but in Ennis defense I think he just doesn't know what to do.  It hurt too much to watch Jack drive away, so he couldn't watch.  I think he was also somewhat ashamed of hurting Jack like that.  But his fear was stronger than all his other feelings.

Donna :\'(

Donna, I read this thread earlier and thought I would come back and defend Ennis....but you've taken the words right out of my mouth. That's exactly what I was going to say

I agree--it seems like Ennis is afraid in some ways to fantasize.  He has to hold Jack at arm's length a lot of the time because he can't let go of his ingrained beliefs that society is going to punish them in some way.  He may dream privately of their being together--but he's not able to let it be known like Jack does.

[Allan]

Reading through this thread, I became aware that perhaps many of our group members are unaware that Lureen's comment is from a song called "The Big Rock Candy Mountains."  The song was popularized by Burl Ives in the 1950's and '60's.  The song is from the point of view of a hobo.  Here are the lyrics:

In the Big Rock Candy Mountains,
There's a land that's fair and bright,
Where the handouts grow on bushes
And you sleep out every night.?Where the boxcars all are empty
And the sun shines every day
And the birds and the bees
And the cigarette trees
The lemonade springs
Where the bluebird sings
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains.

In the Big Rock Candy Mountains
All the cops have wooden legs
And the bulldogs all have rubber teeth
And the hens lay soft-boiled eggs
The farmers' trees are full of fruit
And the barns are full of hay
Oh I'm bound to go
Where there ain't no snow
Where the rain don't fall
The winds don't blow
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains.

In the Big Rock Candy Mountains
You never change your socks
And the little streams of alcohol
Come trickling down the rocks
The brakemen have to tip their hats
And the railway bulls are blind
There's a lake of stew
And of whiskey too
You can paddle all around it
In a big canoe
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains.

In the Big Rock Candy Mountains,
The jails are made of tin.
And you can walk right out again,
As soon as you are in.
There ain't no short-handled shovels,
No axes, saws nor picks,
I'm bound to stay
Where you sleep all day,
Where they hung the jerk
That invented work
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains.

There are other verses, and other versions.  Allan

[welshwitch]

And in "Animal Farm" Sugar Candy Mountain is the place the animals are told they will go when they die.

[bubbaluna]

at that scene by the stream when Jack talks about Ennis moving to Texas?  Ennis says "you're a real thinker" and belittles Jack by saying "maybe it'll rain money from L.D. Newsome and whiskey will flow in the streets.   That's real smart Jack."  How hard it must have been for Jack to have Ennis treat him this way and cast aside his dreams. 

This scene breaks my heart.  Look at Jack's face when Ennis is saying this to him...his head is cocked a little to the side as he listens to Ennis' tirade, and there's such a look of hurt on his face.  All I can think of to say is "Damn you, Ennis"   :\'(

Donna

I wanted to sock Ennis in the mouth during this scene (and the divorce scene, too).  Ennis had a lifetime to regret his words and actions after Jack's death.  Uh-oh.  I feel a breakdown moment coming on.   :\'(

Amen......Ennis sure knew how to hurt Jack...and he paid for it dearly......

[FlwrChild]

Maybe lacking imagination and being unable to dream make you capable of coldness because you don't see how you're affecting others who aren't like you? One of the worst things about the storyis that Ennis can't even begin to envisage any other kind of life and simply dismisses Jack's suggestions as impractical/unrealistic when he's the one who makes them so.

I have a feeling that many of the people on here are dreamers or idealists or romantics and that's at least partly what unites us.

I agree! And I don't think Ennis realized how hurt Jack would be by his words - I think he was just lashing out. Partly out of the frustration from not being able to live that life with Jack.

And I think you're also right about some of what unites us - and what a nice thought!

[FlwrChild]

Yes, you're right, stacp. But there's a difference - Lureen and Jack's father can't see, whereas Ennis won't. He's afraid to think about something so far beyond his experience that it seems like a fantasy.
There's also the fact that many of us have dreams which we don't want to try to turn into reality, because deep down we know they're better left as dreams - I sometimes think that had Jack and Ennis been able to live together the dream mught not have translated into reality in the long run, though even a less perfect existence than they envisioned would have been better than what they got. Depends on what you feel about compromises, I guess.

I'm not sure I agree that they wouldn't have been able to live the dream together. They cared enough to sustain their relationship (such as it was) over 20 years and overwhelming odds. And while they were on the mountain, they worked well together, playing to each of their strengths, respecting each others opinions and feelings, etc. The conditions of working up there were the kind that could certainly lead to animosity for some personalities, but they seemed to blossom and excel. Had Ennis ever been able to actually take that incredible first step, I could see them tackling all sorts of challenges together.

[donnaread]

When Ennis turned Jack away after the divorce, I thought that was the most thoughtless, cold thing he could have done.  He didn't even look up as Jack drove away.

It was cold, but in Ennis defense I think he just doesn't know what to do.  It hurt too much to watch Jack drive away, so he couldn't watch.  I think he was also somewhat ashamed of hurting Jack like that.  But his fear was stronger than all his other feelings.

Donna :\'(

Donna, I read this thread earlier and thought I would come back and defend Ennis....but you've taken the words right out of my mouth. That's exactly what I was going to say

you're welcome, no reins   

Donna

[mrskutz]

ahh..bluebirds and whiskey springs...

If only Jack didn't have his "accident" and  still Alma Jr married the one she loved... ( and he knew his girls had thier own lives now)

Maybe, just maybe  Ennis would have came around in the later 80's..and they would have been together.

[welshwitch]

Yes, I'd like to think so, but fan fiction notwithstanding I'm full of doubts. the way they met intermirrently has elements of holiday - it's a sort of time out of time for them. Whether being together permanently, if Ennis could have overcome his inhibitions before it was too late, would have worked long-term is another matter.

[edgar]

Reading through this thread, I became aware that perhaps many of our group members are unaware that Lureen's comment is from a song called "The Big Rock Candy Mountains."  The song was popularized by Burl Ives in the 1950's and '60's.  The song is from the point of view of a hobo.  Here are the lyrics:

In the Big Rock Candy Mountains,
There's a land that's fair and bright,
Where the handouts grow on bushes
And you sleep out every night.
Where the boxcars all are empty
And the sun shines every day
And the birds and the bees
And the cigarette trees
The lemonade springs
Where the bluebird sings
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains.

In the Big Rock Candy Mountains
All the cops have wooden legs
And the bulldogs all have rubber teeth
And the hens lay soft-boiled eggs
The farmers' trees are full of fruit
And the barns are full of hay
Oh I'm bound to go
Where there ain't no snow
Where the rain don't fall
The winds don't blow
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains.

In the Big Rock Candy Mountains
You never change your socks
And the little streams of alcohol
Come trickling down the rocks
The brakemen have to tip their hats
And the railway bulls are blind
There's a lake of stew
And of whiskey too
You can paddle all around it
In a big canoe
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains.

In the Big Rock Candy Mountains,
The jails are made of tin.
And you can walk right out again,
As soon as you are in.
There ain't no short-handled shovels,
No axes, saws nor picks,
I'm bound to stay
Where you sleep all day,
Where they hung the jerk
That invented work
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains.

There are other verses, and other versions.  Allan

Allan: Thanks for pointing this out. I had started to post on this one day and my computer ran out of batteries. The earliest known version of the song is from 1906, but it probably was written by real hobos sometime before that.

I've bolded a few of the more relevant lines, but it's worth reading the whole thing to get the idea that Lureen (and Ennis, in the earlier scene) are conveying in their references. The song is a fantastic dream of a utopian existence, where everything works out properly and there are no dangers and no problems.

Deep down, Jack sorta believes in such a place.   

Deep down, Ennis knows that's bull****.