Topic: "A couple of high-altitude f**ks."

[welshwitch]

I watched BBM again today, then read the last scene between the two of them. One thing I'm wondering about is why Jack says, "I'm not like you. I can't make it on a couple of high-altitude f**ks a year." Is he trying to explain that he has a greater sex-drive than Ennis? Or admitting what he's been doing in Mexico, or with Randall, as a sort of desperate way of making Ennis jealous? Or trying to devalue the relationship that he can see is going nowhere by reducing it to a purely physical thing? Any ideas? 

[dirtbiker]

I think Jack meant that he wanted more intimacy/bonding than Ennis could give him.  I don't think it's just the sex, as he can find that elsewhere if he needed it.  Jack felt that Ennis was and is his soulmate and is just frustrated that Ennis keeps denying it because of his childhood indoctrination...   

[FlwrChild]

I think Jack meant that he wanted more intimacy/bonding than Ennis could give him.  I don't think it's just the sex, as he can find that elsewhere if he needed it.  Jack felt that Ennis was and is his soulmate and is just frustrated that Ennis keeps denying it because of his childhood indoctrination...   

Yep, I completely agree! And he seems a bit mystified that it seems so easy for Ennis to just hook up and go back to his 'other life'. And a little hurt by that as well. Of course, we know it's not easy for Ennis at all - he just can't bring himself to show it - even to Jack.

[tpe]

I do feel he was saying this out of frustration.  When he said this, he really meant being together.  Sure, the sex goes fine with that, but Jack wanted much more than just sex. 

He wanted Ennis.

[LuvJackNasty]

I think Jack meant that he wanted more intimacy/bonding than Ennis could give him.  I don't think it's just the sex, as he can find that elsewhere if he needed it.  Jack felt that Ennis was and is his soulmate and is just frustrated that Ennis keeps denying it because of his childhood indoctrination...   

I agree- he wanted more time with Ennis. I think he felt truly whole with Ennis and having that only once or twice a year was no longer enough. I'm sure part of it was sexual but it was more of an emotional need, IMO.

[FlwrChild]

I think Jack meant that he wanted more intimacy/bonding than Ennis could give him.  I don't think it's just the sex, as he can find that elsewhere if he needed it.  Jack felt that Ennis was and is his soulmate and is just frustrated that Ennis keeps denying it because of his childhood indoctrination...   

I agree- he wanted more time with Ennis. I think he felt truly whole with Ennis and having that only once or twice a year was no longer enough. I'm sure part of it was sexual but it was more of an emotional need, IMO.

And can you imagine, if you did feel truly whole with someone, what it would feel like to be separated from them for most of your life? No wonder we cry for our boys - both for what they had and what they didn't.

[stacp]

I think Jack meant that he wanted more intimacy/bonding than Ennis could give him.  I don't think it's just the sex, as he can find that elsewhere if he needed it.  Jack felt that Ennis was and is his soulmate and is just frustrated that Ennis keeps denying it because of his childhood indoctrination...   :-\

I agree- he wanted more time with Ennis. I think he felt truly whole with Ennis and having that only once or twice a year was no longer enough. I'm sure part of it was sexual but it was more of an emotional need, IMO.

I do agree that it was the time and intimacy with Ennis that Jack really wanted.  But I took the line "I can't make it on a couple of high altitude f*cks once or twice a year" literally, too.  IMO, Jack wanted to stop living the lie that he was a heterosexual man.  He wanted and craved sex with a man.  Yes, he wanted this sex to be with Ennis, but when they were apart, Jack needed some physical contact with a man.  Sure, it was just straight up sex, but I think Jack needed it to feel alive.

[FlwrChild]

stacp, you're absolutely right. Jack loved Ennis; it wasn't just about the sex. But he was a fully aware gay man and recognized that he needed that kind of physical intimacy too. Poor Ennis was so wrapped up in his own denial, he would have walked in front of a train before admitting what Jack did.

[Sunflower79]

I do agree that Jack wanted more than just sex with Ennis..He wanted intimacy and love and compaionship..the sex was fine but it wasn't enough for him. Ennis denies due to his fears from his past and being afraid of being open with his real feelings..Jack was ready to leave his wife and child for Ennis. I also agree he was frustrated with the situation.

[shieldmaid]

For me this line also reflects Jack's frustration with Ennis in a very painful way: he's suggesting (in the angry, not-quite-fair way that people do when they fight) that it feels like Ennis only sees *him* that way--as a twice-yearly high-altitude f&*k, when Jack himself obviously has so much more emotion invested in their relationship.  Now we know that Ennis is also deeply invested in their relationship on more than sexual levels, but Jack I think is expressing his hurt by suggesting that Ennis relates to him only on a physical level, that he can't face his emotional connection.   :\'(

[LuvJackNasty]

Great interpetation Shieldmaid!

[FlwrChild]

They break down so many barriers in this scene and it STILL doesn't get them anywhere.  :\'(

[CrimsonSky]

I do agree that it was the time and intimacy with Ennis that Jack really wanted.  But I took the line "I can't make it on a couple of high altitude f*cks once or twice a year" literally, too.  IMO, Jack wanted to stop living the lie that he was a heterosexual man.  He wanted and craved sex with a man.  Yes, he wanted this sex to be with Ennis, but when they were apart, Jack needed some physical contact with a man.  Sure, it was just straight up sex, but I think Jack needed it to feel alive.

I totally agree stacp, I also took the line literally. The night before this scene, Jack tells Ennis he misses him so much he can hardly stand it( :\'(),of course, he misses everything about Ennis, not just the sex, but the sex is the only thing he can find some sort of replacement for. To me, that's why he uses the word f***, not to diminish what he and Ennis have, but to set it apart, he doesn't say he can't make on only a few weeks of making love(not that I think either of them would have ever called it that out loud,but something that implied it was more than mindless f***ing) or just being together, because that's not what his other encounters are about.I don't think Jack sees a difference between what he does with other guys, and Ennis "wringing it out a hundred times" thinking about Jack.  He's telling Ennis he's got not right to be jealous (as much as he's probably pleased that Ennis is jealous), because in Jack's mind what he does when Ennis isn't there doesn't touch what they have, and there'd be no need for it anyway, if Ennis had been able to accept what Jack had been offering all those years.   

[stacp]

I do agree that it was the time and intimacy with Ennis that Jack really wanted.  But I took the line "I can't make it on a couple of high altitude f*cks once or twice a year" literally, too.  IMO, Jack wanted to stop living the lie that he was a heterosexual man.  He wanted and craved sex with a man.  Yes, he wanted this sex to be with Ennis, but when they were apart, Jack needed some physical contact with a man.  Sure, it was just straight up sex, but I think Jack needed it to feel alive.

I totally agree stacp, I also took the line literally. The night before this scene, Jack tells Ennis he misses him so much he can hardly stand it( :'(),of course, he misses everything about Ennis, not just the sex, but the sex is the only thing he can find some sort of replacement for. To me, that's why he uses the word f***, not to diminish what he and Ennis have, but to set it apart, he doesn't say he can't make on only a few weeks of making love(not that I think either of them would have ever called it that out loud,but something that implied it was more than mindless f***ing) or just being together, because that's not what his other encounters are about.I don't think Jack sees a difference between what he does with other guys, and Ennis "wringing it out a hundred times" thinking about Jack.  He's telling Ennis he's got not right to be jealous (as much as he's probably pleased that Ennis is jealous), because in Jack's mind what he does when Ennis isn't there doesn't touch what they have, and there'd be no need for it anyway, if Ennis had been able to accept what Jack had been offering all those years.   

That post deserves an Amen, CrimsonSky.  Jack tells Ennis straight up "you have no idea how bad it gets."  Why does it get so bad?  Ennis has never mentally moved off BBM.  Jack is more open with his sexuality and more accepting of being gay.  He's at least one step out of the closet, while Ennis is buried so deep in the closet, he probably can'tfind his ass (but I bet Jack can--sorry!).  Being more open to this, Jack probably allows himself to feel more of the sexual cravings than Ennis.  Ennis is a great compartmentalizer; Jack doesn't seem to able to do this.  So, Jack, who can' t tuck away his sexuality after coming off BBM like Ennis, needs more physical contact with a man.  But I think you are so right about Jack thinking his side flings are nothing but a substitute, like Ennis wringing it out.  Randall was a f*ck buddy, pure and simple IMO.  Sorry to be so crude there, but I can't picture Randall as anything else.

[FlwrChild]

Can't picture Randall as anything else either. You make very good points!

[FlwrChild]

For me this line also reflects Jack's frustration with Ennis in a very painful way: he's suggesting (in the angry, not-quite-fair way that people do when they fight) that it feels like Ennis only sees *him* that way--as a twice-yearly high-altitude f&*k, when Jack himself obviously has so much more emotion invested in their relationship.  Now we know that Ennis is also deeply invested in their relationship on more than sexual levels, but Jack I think is expressing his hurt by suggesting that Ennis relates to him only on a physical level, that he can't face his emotional connection.   :\'(

I think this is also a good point. And interestingly, madlori addresses it in Human Interest too (sorry for OT, I'll make it brief). In that story, Ennis has to reassure Jack more than once that it's Not just about the sex for him either. I just think it's interesting that she picked up on that dynamic too. Must mean we're not imagining it! (see, back on topic  )

[keren_b]

For me this line also reflects Jack's frustration with Ennis in a very painful way: he's suggesting (in the angry, not-quite-fair way that people do when they fight) that it feels like Ennis only sees *him* that way--as a twice-yearly high-altitude f&*k, when Jack himself obviously has so much more emotion invested in their relationship.  Now we know that Ennis is also deeply invested in their relationship on more than sexual levels, but Jack I think is expressing his hurt by suggesting that Ennis relates to him only on a physical level, that he can't face his emotional connection.   :\'(

I think you're so right shieldmaid! Jack is very insecure about Ennis's feelings towards him, because it's so much more than just sex for him, and he needs to know that Ennis feels that too. I think that's why his most precious memory is the flashback of the dozy embrace, that satisfied a shared, sexless hunger. that embrace wasn't about sex, it was about love and intimacy, what Jack needed so badly from Ennis. For Jack that dozy embrace was exactly what he wanted their relationship to be... warmth, intimacy, love. something beyond sex. and it was one of the rare times that Ennis has demonstrated these feelings for him, which made this memory so dear.

[NoReins]

For me this line also reflects Jack's frustration with Ennis in a very painful way: he's suggesting (in the angry, not-quite-fair way that people do when they fight) that it feels like Ennis only sees *him* that way--as a twice-yearly high-altitude f&*k, when Jack himself obviously has so much more emotion invested in their relationship.  Now we know that Ennis is also deeply invested in their relationship on more than sexual levels, but Jack I think is expressing his hurt by suggesting that Ennis relates to him only on a physical level, that he can't face his emotional connection.   :\'(

I think you're so right shieldmaid! Jack is very insecure about Ennis's feelings towards him, because it's so much more than just sex for him, and he needs to know that Ennis feels that too. I think that's why his most precious memory is the flashback of the dozy embrace, that satisfied a shared, sexless hunger. that embrace wasn't about sex, it was about love and intimacy, what Jack needed so badly from Ennis. For Jack that dozy embrace was exactly what he wanted their relationship to be... warmth, intimacy, love. something beyond sex. and it was one of the rare times that Ennis has demonstrated these feelings for him, which made this memory so dear.

Keren, you've done that reading my mind thing again and put it so beautifully too :\'(

[tpe]

For me this line also reflects Jack's frustration with Ennis in a very painful way: he's suggesting (in the angry, not-quite-fair way that people do when they fight) that it feels like Ennis only sees *him* that way--as a twice-yearly high-altitude f&*k, when Jack himself obviously has so much more emotion invested in their relationship.  Now we know that Ennis is also deeply invested in their relationship on more than sexual levels, but Jack I think is expressing his hurt by suggesting that Ennis relates to him only on a physical level, that he can't face his emotional connection.   :\'(

I think you're so right shieldmaid! Jack is very insecure about Ennis's feelings towards him, because it's so much more than just sex for him, and he needs to know that Ennis feels that too. I think that's why his most precious memory is the flashback of the dozy embrace, that satisfied a shared, sexless hunger. that embrace wasn't about sex, it was about love and intimacy, what Jack needed so badly from Ennis. For Jack that dozy embrace was exactly what he wanted their relationship to be... warmth, intimacy, love. something beyond sex. and it was one of the rare times that Ennis has demonstrated these feelings for him, which made this memory so dear.

keren_b and shieldmaid, what you say here rings true to me.  It's beyond physical.  Thank you.

[FlwrChild]

Yup, I wish I could be as eloquent!

[edgar]

Since Jack and Ennis see each other so rarely, their meetings inevitably include large amounts of sex.

Jack wants to be together often enough (like all the time) so that their meetings are more about each other, less just about sex.

[stacp]

Since Jack and Ennis see each other so rarely, their meetings inevitably include large amounts of sex.

Jack wants to be together often enough (like all the time) so that their meetings are more about each other, less just about sex.

That's a good way to put it, although I bet Jack sure didn't mind all that high altitude loving with Ennis.  I sure wiould have liked it if we could have seen some of those "large amounts of sex" during their reunions. 

[Patriot1]

Since Jack and Ennis see each other so rarely, their meetings inevitably include large amounts of sex.

Jack wants to be together often enough (like all the time) so that their meetings are more about each other, less just about sex.

Edgar, I am not sure how you are getting "large amounts of sex" out of, "I can't make it on a couple of high-altitude f**ks once or twice a year".

[shieldmaid]

I imagine that when they meet they must have a decent amount of sex, though, right?  They ride, they fish (maybe?), they cook their meals, they drink and talk and sleep.  so when Jack says a *couple* of high-altitude f&*ks, he really means that compared to the rest of the long days in their lives, this is very little.  But they're packing as much as they can into this time--he just wants more, and believes that Ennis does too, although he can't admit it.

[welshwitch]

It occurred to me that since they see each other so rarely, there would be a kind of desperate intensity in every meeting, and of course the sex would be intense too. then in retrospect it would look as though this was the most important thing, though actually it had only been the most immediate, and an overt sign of something much deeper, the need to make oneself part of a whole for as long as one could.
then of one or the other, Jack in this case, felt angry, ir would be all too easy to do the "You only want me for sex" bit, although it wasnlt true.

[edgar]

It occurred to me that since they see each other so rarely, there would be a kind of desperate intensity in every meeting, and of course the sex would be intense too. then in retrospect it would look as though this was the most important thing, though actually it had only been the most immediate, and an overt sign of something much deeper, the need to make oneself part of a whole for as long as one could.
then of one or the other, Jack in this case, felt angry, ir would be all too easy to do the "You only want me for sex" bit, although it wasnlt true.

Yeah, that's kinda what I meant.

Come on, Patriot1, you really don't think there was lots of sex in their meetings?? Jack is angry and trying to emphasize the infrequency of their meetings. But, yikes, you think that they went to that motel room just to smoke cigarettes?

(Where's the smoking smiley, anyway??)

I guess they just     and maybe do a little    (this icon is drinking and singing, right?) then Ennis tries to steal a and Jack says, "No way, just a couple a year for you."

 

[stacp]

It occurred to me that since they see each other so rarely, there would be a kind of desperate intensity in every meeting, and of course the sex would be intense too. then in retrospect it would look as though this was the most important thing, though actually it had only been the most immediate, and an overt sign of something much deeper, the need to make oneself part of a whole for as long as one could.
then of one or the other, Jack in this case, felt angry, ir would be all too easy to do the "You only want me for sex" bit, although it wasnlt true.

Yeah, that's kinda what I meant.

Come on, Patriot1, you really don't think there was lots of sex in their meetings?? Jack is angry and trying to emphasize the infrequency of their meetings. But, yikes, you think that they went to that motel room just to smoke cigarettes?

(Where's the smoking smiley, anyway??)

I guess they just     and maybe do a little    (this icon is drinking and singing, right?) then Ennis tries to steal a and Jack says, "No way, just a couple a year for you."

 

Annie says that one thing never changed:  the charge of their infrequent couplings.  In the book, once their older, Ennis is undoing Jack's shirt by the fire and they are rolling down into the dirt.  Yep.  They shagged like rabbits up there in the mountains.     I think their love and passion was insatiable.  Never enough! 

[Titus]

I found that odd too.  I know that sex was how they expressed their affection for one another, Ennis was really a kissy, huggy kind of guy was he?  So sex was how they let down their defenses and "got close".  Jack almost breaks down a barrier when he talks about his "affair" withthe ranch foreman's wife and how much he misses Ennis.

I was surprised that over a week or ten days there was only one or two f**ks a year.  I mean really, I can barely manage on only once or twice a week.  If I only saw my man a couple of times a year, there would be a lot of catching up to do.  I think Ennis was a bit ambivalent about the sex, he had to work at letting himself go.  I may be wrong, the short story seems to paint a more active picture, but who knows.  Sad really.  Titus.

[FlwrChild]

Oh I think he had to work at letting himself go, but once they were together he went! Just look at the way he devoured (a grateful) Jack in the reunion scene. I definitely feel that Jack's reference to a 'couple of high altitude f*cks a year' meant as a percentage of a whole year, not as a percentage of their time together.

[NoReins]

I always thought that Jack meant the number of times they got together each year, rather than the number of times that they actually had sex and that the "can't make it on a couple of high altitude f*cks" line meant that seeing Ennis a couple of times a year wasn't enough. I don't think for a minute that he meant that they only had sex a couple of times a year - like others have said, I reckon that the passion at the reunion kiss never faded and that when they were together they were pretty much all over each other all the time.