Topic: motel room scene

[stacp]

DO you think that the way they show this scene -- the two of them not facing each other, seeing eye to eye -- was deliberate?  I have thought that it references the flashback scene where they again don't face each other.  Here is the motel scene, Jack embraces Ennis.  In the flashback, Ennis embraces Jack.  In both cases, they do not see eye to eye.  They are a striking parallel to each other...

That's a great point, tpe.  It also reminds me of the scene on the mountain, when they are sitting next to one another but not looking at each other.  Perhaps they do their best communicating when not face to face.

Don't know how I missed that before.  In the motel it's Jack behind with his forearm around Ennis -- opposite the flashback scene.  Not sure if that has any particular meaning or not. 

Lots of people -- mostly men -- tend to look to the side or in the distance when they talk to another person.  And perhaps counterintuitively it can be most pronounced when speaking about meaningful things rather than simple small talk.  Maybe it is a way to blunting the perceived vulnerability of speaking openly and directly?

I've heard that Ang Lee is really into the bookend scenes, so maybe Jack with his forearm around Ennis in the motel scene in a bookend to the dozy embrace scene where Ennis is holding Jack.  Both scenes, to me, show Ennis and Jack at their most comfortable and loving moments in their relationship (in addition to SNIT).  I absolutely think that the most important lines are not delivered eye to eye for a reason.  These two guys were men's men, if you will; cowboys, masculine, and not supposed to show emotion.  I don't think they could look each other in the eye when they said their most intimate things to each other or they would see the love and pain in each other's eyes.  That would not be so manly to them, would it?  It would be too much (son of a whore son bitch!).   

[tpe]

When I posted my query this morning, I really did not expect a generosity of riches shared as all of you do now.  Indeed, as shieldmaid  and frances have suggested, in many of the most significant lines in the movie, they don't see eye-to-eye.   And yes, stacp, I cannot help but think that this is another one of Ang Lee's bookends.  As elaborated on by dalemidex, the motel scene is a pivotal point.  It balances the flashback scene with beauty and with grace.

[welshwitch]

The parallels go on to, in the shirts, first Jack embracing Ennis, so to speak, then in the trailer Ennis embracing Jack, and protecting him from the world as he couldn't while Jack was alive.
This scene is powerful in the ss but to me both sweeter and sadder in the movie, possibly because less is said.

[shieldmaid]

The parallels go on to, in the shirts, first Jack embracing Ennis, so to speak, then in the trailer Ennis embracing Jack, and protecting him from the world as he couldn't while Jack was alive.
This scene is powerful in the ss but to me both sweeter and sadder in the movie, possibly because less is said.

That's so true.  This scene in the motel also resonates for me with the scene by the campfire ("you know it could be like this, just like this, always").  Jack is hopeful, full of love, wanting to build a life with Ennis.  Ennis is also full of love, but cautious and fearful.  Jack sits looking down at Ennis lying on the ground at the beginning of the scene; they look directly at each other and smile into one another's eyes.  But by the end, Ennis has sat up and is fighting off tears, unable to look at Jack ("as long as we can ride it. there ain't no reins on this one")--as Jack strokes his cheek to comfort him.  As you say, sweet and sad and so powerful.

[hpv]

DO you think that the way they show this scene -- the two of them not facing each other, seeing eye to eye -- was deliberate?  I have thought that it references the flashback scene where they again don't face each other.  Here is the motel scene, Jack embraces Ennis.  In the flashback, Ennis embraces Jack.  In both cases, they do not see eye to eye.  They are a striking parallel to each other...

That's a great point, tpe.  It also reminds me of the scene on the mountain, when they are sitting next to one another but not looking at each other.  Perhaps they do their best communicating when not face to face.

Don't know how I missed that before.  In the motel it's Jack behind with his forearm around Ennis -- opposite the flashback scene.  Not sure if that has any particular meaning or not. 

Lots of people -- mostly men -- tend to look to the side or in the distance when they talk to another person.  And perhaps counterintuitively it can be most pronounced when speaking about meaningful things rather than simple small talk.  Maybe it is a way to blunting the perceived vulnerability of speaking openly and directly?

I've heard that Ang Lee is really into the bookend scenes, so maybe Jack with his forearm around Ennis in the motel scene in a bookend to the dozy embrace scene where Ennis is holding Jack.  Both scenes, to me, show Ennis and Jack at their most comfortable and loving moments in their relationship (in addition to SNIT).  I absolutely think that the most important lines are not delivered eye to eye for a reason.  These two guys were men's men, if you will; cowboys, masculine, and not supposed to show emotion.  I don't think they could look each other in the eye when they said their most intimate things to each other or they would see the love and pain in each other's eyes.  That would not be so manly to them, would it?  It would be too much (son of a whore son bitch!).   

What about the LastNIT-Ennis's arm around Jack from behind too-so cute and lovable

[hpv]

I love it,when Jack and Ennis , having a post-coital cigarette. It's so amazingly intimate.. 

BTW,they haven't been before in a room together ,only  outdoors on BBM

[stacp]

I love it,when Jack and Ennis , having a post-coital cigarette. It's so amazingly intimate.. 

BTW,they haven't been before in a room together ,only  outdoors on BBM

So true.  That dive was probably like the Ritz Carlton honeymoon suite to them. 

[tpe]

I love it,when Jack and Ennis , having a post-coital cigarette. It's so amazingly intimate.. 

BTW,they haven't been before in a room together ,only  outdoors on BBM

So true.  That dive was probably like the Ritz Carlton honeymoon suite to them. 

Any place where they made love must have been a palace to them. 

 

[shieldmaid]

I couldn't help wondering if Ennis might have driven by there, later on, and always found his eyes drawn to that place, the place where he was reunited with the love of his life, if only briefly.  Perhaps that's why Ang Lee chose to include that big, gaudy motel sign--it points to the place where our heroes find one another again.

[welshwitch]

When Ennis says "I doubt there's nothing we can do" you can see him deliberately closing the door to the future, shutting his love for and need of Jack away, and setting the tone for much of the rest of his life, and you want to scream at him not to do it.

[tpe]

When Ennis says "I doubt there's nothing we can do" you can see him deliberately closing the door to the future, shutting his love for and need of Jack away, and setting the tone for much of the rest of his life, and you want to scream at him not to do it.

He is tryinmg to shore up the status quo here.  It is not that he does not love Jack.  He is afraid of losing him again.  He is afraid of losing what little they have...

Love is expressed in the strangest of ways...

[ksxks]

DO you think that the way they show this scene -- the two of them not facing each other, seeing eye to eye -- was deliberate?  I have thought that it references the flashback scene where they again don't face each other.  Here is the motel scene, Jack embraces Ennis.  In the flashback, Ennis embraces Jack.  In both cases, they do not see eye to eye.  They are a striking parallel to each other...

That's a great point, tpe.  It also reminds me of the scene on the mountain, when they are sitting next to one another but not looking at each other.  Perhaps they do their best communicating when not face to face.

Don't know how I missed that before.  In the motel it's Jack behind with his forearm around Ennis -- opposite the flashback scene.  Not sure if that has any particular meaning or not. 

Lots of people -- mostly men -- tend to look to the side or in the distance when they talk to another person.  And perhaps counterintuitively it can be most pronounced when speaking about meaningful things rather than simple small talk.  Maybe it is a way to blunting the perceived vulnerability of speaking openly and directly?

Another wonderful thread.  (Since I didn't get in on this forum from the beginning, I'm still scrolling through and getting in on sometimes-old threads I find of interest...which is all of them!)

First, I have a comment on the specific subject of these quoted posts.  There was a study done with two little girls and two little boys (maybe 7 years old?) as subjects.  The pairs were given chairs to carry into a room and put the chairs wherever they wanted and sit down and talk or whatever.  The majority of the pairs of girls put the chairs facing each othe.  The majority of the pairs of boys put the chairs side-by-side.  So, it is something interesting about how men might be more inclined to communicate, differently than women.  This is too simplistic, but women bond by sharing, they are the ones who embrace each other and the world, saying come on in.  Men are like side-by-side protecting the perimeter, etc.  I know, a huge generalization, but with that in mind, it makes me notice Ennis and Jack's body postures and body language together.

I love what everyone has said about this scene.  I don't think I have anything to add -- I just love their ease and comfort with each other here.  All the many, many little moments that express how they feel about each other.  Beautiful quietly expressive moments, sexy, poignant, sad...

kathy

[hpv]

I couldn't help wondering if Ennis might have driven by there, later on, and always found his eyes drawn to that place, the place where he was reunited with the love of his life, if only briefly.  Perhaps that's why Ang Lee chose to include that big, gaudy motel sign--it points to the place where our heroes find one another again.

I'm sure that he must have...I know I would, all those memories!

[hpv]

DO you think that the way they show this scene -- the two of them not facing each other, seeing eye to eye -- was deliberate?  I have thought that it references the flashback scene where they again don't face each other.  Here is the motel scene, Jack embraces Ennis.  In the flashback, Ennis embraces Jack.  In both cases, they do not see eye to eye.  They are a striking parallel to each other...

That's a great point, tpe.  It also reminds me of the scene on the mountain, when they are sitting next to one another but not looking at each other.  Perhaps they do their best communicating when not face to face.

First, I have a comment on the specific subject of these quoted posts.  There was a study done with two little girls and two little boys (maybe 7 years old?) as subjects.  The pairs were given chairs to carry into a room and put the chairs wherever they wanted and sit down and talk or whatever.  The majority of the pairs of girls put the chairs facing each othe.  The majority of the pairs of boys put the chairs side-by-side.  So, it is something interesting about how men might be more inclined to communicate, differently than women.  This is too simplistic, but women bond by sharing, they are the ones who embrace each other and the world, saying come on in.  Men are like side-by-side protecting the perimeter, etc.  I know, a huge generalization, but with that in mind, it makes me notice Ennis and Jack's body postures and body language together.

That's so intresting!! I love your observations ,
Thank you Kathy   

[tpe]

I love what everyone has said about this scene.  I don't think I have anything to add -- I just love their ease and comfort with each other here.  All the many, many little moments that express how they feel about each other.  Beautiful quietly expressive moments, sexy, poignant, sad...

kathy

Thank Kathy.  sexy, poignant, sad...  This is a wonderful summary in 3 words. 

[karen1129]

When Ennis says "I doubt there's nothing we can do" you can see him deliberately closing the door to the future, shutting his love for and need of Jack away, and setting the tone for much of the rest of his life, and you want to scream at him not to do it.

He was closing the door to future of them ever living together.  He still loved Jack, but his fear of the tire iron, and
coming to terms with the fact the person he was desperately in love with was a man, prevented him from believing
he could have that "sweet life".  If it was his wife holding him back, he could have took off with Jack after
Alma divorced him.  There was so much fear in poor Ennis's head.  I believe the biggest one being he didn't
want to be queer.  Living with Jack would make him that in his mind.  Just getting together ever y once and
awhile out in the middle of nowhere, made it just that "thing". 
 

[welshwitch]

And Ennis was so good at finding excuses - making a living, paying his child support, being there for the girls - the events in the motel start him off in this pattern of closing off possibilities without even thinking about it. I wonder if / when he looked back on these moments what he thought they represented.

[keren_b]

DO you think that the way they show this scene -- the two of them not facing each other, seeing eye to eye -- was deliberate?  I have thought that it references the flashback scene where they again don't face each other.  Here is the motel scene, Jack embraces Ennis.  In the flashback, Ennis embraces Jack.  In both cases, they do not see eye to eye.  They are a striking parallel to each other...

That's a great point, tpe.  It also reminds me of the scene on the mountain, when they are sitting next to one another but not looking at each other.  Perhaps they do their best communicating when not face to face.

Don't know how I missed that before.  In the motel it's Jack behind with his forearm around Ennis -- opposite the flashback scene.  Not sure if that has any particular meaning or not. 

Lots of people -- mostly men -- tend to look to the side or in the distance when they talk to another person.  And perhaps counterintuitively it can be most pronounced when speaking about meaningful things rather than simple small talk.  Maybe it is a way to blunting the perceived vulnerability of speaking openly and directly?

I've heard that Ang Lee is really into the bookend scenes, so maybe Jack with his forearm around Ennis in the motel scene in a bookend to the dozy embrace scene where Ennis is holding Jack.  Both scenes, to me, show Ennis and Jack at their most comfortable and loving moments in their relationship (in addition to SNIT).  I absolutely think that the most important lines are not delivered eye to eye for a reason.  These two guys were men's men, if you will; cowboys, masculine, and not supposed to show emotion.  I don't think they could look each other in the eye when they said their most intimate things to each other or they would see the love and pain in each other's eyes.  That would not be so manly to them, would it?  It would be too much (son of a whore son bitch!).   

I agree with all your comments, they're all so wonderful and true. Just wanted to add that there's another very simple reason why they're not facing each other in the motel, a very simple reason because Annie Proulx has pointed it out herself. This is not a coincidence that this scene reminds us of the dozy embrace, and remember what Annie wrote about that embrace:
Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that.
I don't know why they were cuddling in the movie while in the book they didn't, maybe Ang wanted it to be more intimate. But still I'm sure he knew that they couldn't be cuddling face to face, that was just too much for Ennis to bare. For the same reason he couldn't hug Jack face to face four years ago, he couldn't do it now, and precisely because it was such an intimate moment.

[tpe]

I agree with all your comments, they're all so wonderful and true. Just wanted to add that there's another very simple reason why they're not facing each other in the motel, a very simple reason because Annie Proulx has pointed it out herself. This is not a coincidence that this scene reminds us of the dozy embrace, and remember what Annie wrote about that embrace:
Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that.
I don't know why they were cuddling in the movie while in the book they didn't, maybe Ang wanted it to be more intimate. But still I'm sure he knew that they couldn't be cuddling face to face, that was just too much for Ennis to bare. For the same reason he couldn't hug Jack face to face four years ago, he couldn't do it now, and precisely because it was such an intimate moment.

I do feel that it is not a coincidence.  And I do feel this is a bookend to the flashback scene, which the above quote references.

Thank you.

[ksxks]

I agree with all your comments, they're all so wonderful and true. Just wanted to add that there's another very simple reason why they're not facing each other in the motel, a very simple reason because Annie Proulx has pointed it out herself. This is not a coincidence that this scene reminds us of the dozy embrace, and remember what Annie wrote about that embrace:
Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that.
I don't know why they were cuddling in the movie while in the book they didn't, maybe Ang wanted it to be more intimate. But still I'm sure he knew that they couldn't be cuddling face to face, that was just too much for Ennis to bare. For the same reason he couldn't hug Jack face to face four years ago, he couldn't do it now, and precisely because it was such an intimate moment.

Yes, except for the divine huge strong man-hugs in reunion scene, and when first meeting after the divorce.  Those were so overt, so undeniable -- no question about who Ennis was hugging...

kathy

[edgar]

I agree with all your comments, they're all so wonderful and true. Just wanted to add that there's another very simple reason why they're not facing each other in the motel, a very simple reason because Annie Proulx has pointed it out herself. This is not a coincidence that this scene reminds us of the dozy embrace, and remember what Annie wrote about that embrace:
Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that.
I don't know why they were cuddling in the movie while in the book they didn't, maybe Ang wanted it to be more intimate. But still I'm sure he knew that they couldn't be cuddling face to face, that was just too much for Ennis to bare. For the same reason he couldn't hug Jack face to face four years ago, he couldn't do it now, and precisely because it was such an intimate moment.

Yes, except for the divine huge strong man-hugs in reunion scene, and when first meeting after the divorce.  Those were so overt, so undeniable -- no question about who Ennis was hugging...

kathy

Hmmm. I've been thinking about this...

FNIT: a little face-to-face contact, but mostly not
SNIT: quite a bit of ftf, but Ennis keeps eyes closed
Reunion: Unmitigated ftf; once again Ennis mostly has eyes closed... but still
Motel: not ftf
dozy embrace: not ftf, but Ennis looking around as if to see Jack better....

Ahdunno.

[welshwitch]

Maybe the hugs are at times when there's no sex, as in the dreamy hug or the ones after the divorce? And int the morel scene it was afterwards, and the sex wasn't shown - their being together and talking was the point here.

[tpe]

Maybe the hugs are at times when there's no sex, as in the dreamy hug or the ones after the divorce? And int the morel scene it was afterwards, and the sex wasn't shown - their being together and talking was the point here.

This is most likely true.  The motel scene is post-coital, when their sexual urges have been temporarily satisfied (although the short story takes pains to say that they have not yet completely "softened".)  In spite of appearances, I think that post-coital scene was largely sexless -- similar to the dozy embrace.

[welshwitch]

As though once the actual sex is over, they've moved to a new plane of intimacy - there are so many things that, when you do them with or in the company of someone you love, feel closer than sex can bring you. This sequence is, like the dozy embrace, one of those transcendent moments.

[tpe]

As though once the actual sex is over, they've moved to a new plane of intimacy - there are so many things that, when you do them with or in the company of someone you love, feel closer than sex can bring you. This sequence is, like the dozy embrace, one of those transcendent moments.

Am I being hyper-imaginative here, but you can almost SMELL them in this scne.  It is quite visceral.  But it indeed has a transcendent power.

[shieldmaid]

Am I being hyper-imaginative here, but you can almost SMELL them in this scne.  It is quite visceral.  But it indeed has a transcendent power.

I think you're so right, tpe--one of the reasons this scene is so powerful is that you see them using so many of their own senses.  Jack smells Ennis's hair, Ennis strokes Jack's arm, they listen intently to one another's words--and I'm sure they're still tasting each other after the intensely physical experience they've just had.    Significantly, the one sense that isn't used as much here is sight, as everyone's been discussing.  They are communicating with their other senses this time.

And yes, can we smell it ourselves?  I think so--remember the short story: "The room stank of semen and smoke and sweat and whiskey, of old carpet and sour hay, saddle leather, shit, and cheap soap."

[tpe]

I think you're so right, tpe--one of the reasons this scene is so powerful is that you see them using so many of their own senses.  Jack smells Ennis's hair, Ennis strokes Jack's arm, they listen intently to one another's words--and I'm sure they're still tasting each other after the intensely physical experience they've just had.    Significantly, the one sense that isn't used as much here is sight, as everyone's been discussing.  They are communicating with their other senses this time.

And yes, can we smell it ourselves?  I think so--remember the short story: "The room stank of semen and smoke and sweat and whiskey, of old carpet and sour hay, saddle leather, shit, and cheap soap."

One thing that moves me is that the scent of a lover remains after he is long gone -- even on one's own person. 

I do not mean to offend those of us who are fastidious in their tastes, but the way they kissed, the way they embraced, one cannot help but getting drunk on the physcial presence of the beloved.  Even as the room smelled of terrible things, it is surely the scent of each other that overpowers them, inebriates them -- like incense, like choice perfume.

[keren_b]

Ennis looks so content in this scene, so relaxed, and it's not just because of the sex. I imagine him thinking something like, "this is happiness, being right here, in his arms" (and Jack probably thinks "this is happiness, having him right here in my arms...")

[hpv]

As though once the actual sex is over, they've moved to a new plane of intimacy - there are so many things that, when you do them with or in the company of someone you love, feel closer than sex can bring you. This sequence is, like the dozy embrace, one of those transcendent moments.

Am I being hyper-imaginative here, but you can almost SMELL them in this scne.  It is quite visceral.  But it indeed has a transcendent power.

I'd like to quote from A.P. short story:

"The room stank of semen and smoke and sweat and whiskey, of old carpet and sour hay, saddle leather, shit and cheap soap. Ennis lay spread-eagled, spent and wet, breathing deep, still half tumescent, Jack blowing forceful cigarette clouds like whale spouts, and Jack said, "Christ, it got a be all that time a yours ahorseback makes it so goddamn good.  "

Sigh.... I rest my case..

BTW. I do miss the underlined quote

[keren_b]

Oh yes hpv, I love this quote! I wish Ang kept the motel scene more close to the original and included this line... he could've cut on other scenes! (less Cassie or less LaShawn would be fine by me...)