Topic: motel room scene

[welshwitch]

But the way they're shown sleeping close together, Ennis's arm round Jack, also indicates that at least unconsciously they stil love each other - the waking world may be too complex and difficult, but things are simpler in the sleeping one. Perhaps what they've shared, even if they're never acknowledged it, is a dream. 

[CherryCake]

But the way they're shown sleeping close together, Ennis's arm round Jack, also indicates that at least unconsciously they stil love each other - the waking world may be too complex and difficult, but things are simpler in the sleeping one. Perhaps what they've shared, even if they're never acknowledged it, is a dream. 

oh, yes, Welshy, and didn't the story start and end with a dream sequence?  If Ennis is lucky, dreams of jack will stoke him through the day... 

[NoReins]

I saw this question somewere,not sure..
After the blissfull night in the motel,what does Ennis take from the medicine cabinet in his house before he goes to the Mountains.....he has the tooth brush in his mouth already...so...was it vaseline??
Inquiring minds like to know...

I always assumed it was toothpaste.....taking vaseline from the cabinet right under Alma's nose would have been a little too obvious I think.

I think Jack would have taken care of the, ahem, lubrication before his trip to see Ennis anyway :-[

[christie wood]

I guess that's why I've always loved the motel scene--after we have watched several minutes depicting their lives with wives and children, to see them practically igniting with their shared passion and then touching each other (yes, the arm stroking in the motel bed and YES, Jack stroking the side of Ennis's face by the fire) is like a reward for patience.  A great gift.

I agree Shieldmaid, and I think it is a reward - imagine how hard it must have been for both of them to be separated for 4 years, having to live out hollow and empty lives that were a world away from the love they found on Brokeback. To have found each other again is probably the greatest reward they could have been given.

This is a fascinating thread, and I love reading everyone's comments, I think we all share the same feelings about the scene.  Everyone has expressed a lot of things that I would have said myself.  I adore the way they are lying together, so relaxed and content, almost as if 4 years had not happened.  When Ennis says "didnt think I'd hear from you again" (and does that gorgeous arm rubbing thing he does!) and Jack replies in that lovely way of his (someone else has mentioned this earlier....).  I took that to mean Jack was saying "I always knew I'd see you again".  I always wonder what Ennis is thinking when Jack tells him about going back to Brokeback the following summer, in the hope that Ennis would be there.  You can tell Ennis is listening intently to what Jack is saying, but who knows what he is thinking.  I wonder if he is thinking "I wish I'd gone back there too".   :\'(  :\'(

[Raisa]

I don't think anyone here has an intention to reduce BBM to anything, least of all a porn film... although I get your point patriot, especially after reading the "horniest Jake scene" thread (you can really think we're talking about porn scenes when you read some of the posts...). I personally would be deeply disappointed if someone told me that the movie's highlight for them was to watch Jake and Heath making out, because that would mean they missed the whole point. This movie is so much more than just two guys going at each other and I'm sure all the members of ennisjack.com agree with that, so I take most of these posts as people making jokes and fooling around a little, I don't think that this is really the way people here view BBM.

Personally I wouldn't object more intimate scenes like the motel room scene. no, I'm not asking for another FNIT, I don't expect to see them screwing (pardon my bluntness) throughout the whole film, I guess that would really be tasteless. But a scene like the motel room - you don't see them having sex, you see them in a rare moment of closeness and intimacy, you see the deep love they share with each other. you see that in their smiles, in the way Jack holds Ennis and whispers into his hair, in the way Ennis strokes Jack's arm. that's totally beautifull and there's no harm in wanting a few more moments like that, I think... because after the reunion we barely see any signs of affection on their part, we see them riding and talking and arguing but we hardly see them show affection for each other, with the exeption of the last night when we see them sleeping and Ennis has his arm around Jack. one can almost get the feeling that they really are just fishing buddies, and we know they're so much more. I'd love to see more moments of love, tenderness, happiness between them - it doesn't have to be sex. but something like the motel room scene, when they're just lying in each other's arms and you know that both of them are so happy and peacefull now, and you can feel their love and their joy fill your heart - yeah, I definitelly wouldn't mind seeing more of that. we've all cried so much over their tragedy, it's only natural we'd want to share their few moments of bliss.

I quote  your whole post, dear keren_b, cos you have said my and many others´  thoughts and feelings about this scene so beautifully
and compact way. And of course many other have also said beautiful and important things. Thank for you all!

  Yes, I have seen some gay porn, but it can be very boring, and I don´t want to see Jack and Ennis having raw sex. It´s nobody´s business but theirs.

[ksxks]

Oh.  :\'(

I think I just realized that the last hug, the last conscious affection (since the sleeping arm thing seems to be unconscious) we see is the hug after Ennis's divorce.

Wow. That makes that scene even more of a turning point in the relationship. And Ennis pulled away, and was making sure nobody saw... And that was that.

Of course, they certainly hugged (and more) later in their relationship, but Lee has shut us out of seeing such moments. As Keren pointed out--there is a palpable absence of a hug after "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."

In this way, we don't just realize the creeping chill in their relationship; we actually experience it (probably without even knowing it).

sigh.

I am feeling depressed now... :\'(  This post belongs on PBS thread.   

Sometimes I go for a long time looking mostly at the beauty and strength of their love, and I have joy (and I have fun like with Jakelicks and Heath Baby madness, or the butt thread, what have you)...but then...I can't be in denial about 1) this erosion, the "creeping chill" as you said, Edgar, in their relationship; then 2) the tragic end of Jack, the heartbreaking place we last see Ennis...

kathy

[welshwitch]

Which means that the dozy embrace is the last uncomplicated moment, and the otel embrace the last close and affectionate one, and everything after that's  moving away. As someone I know once said of a mutual acquaintance, "If happiness is a point, he's been moving further away from it all his life". Is this what Jack and Ennis do after the high point of the reunion?

[stacp]

Oh.  :'(

I think I just realized that the last hug, the last conscious affection (since the sleeping arm thing seems to be unconscious) we see is the hug after Ennis's divorce.

Wow. That makes that scene even more of a turning point in the relationship. And Ennis pulled away, and was making sure nobody saw... And that was that.

Of course, they certainly hugged (and more) later in their relationship, but Lee has shut us out of seeing such moments. As Keren pointed out--there is a palpable absence of a hug after "I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."

In this way, we don't just realize the creeping chill in their relationship; we actually experience it (probably without even knowing it).

sigh.

I am feeling depressed now... :'(  This post belongs on PBS thread.   :-\

Sometimes I go for a long time looking mostly at the beauty and strength of their love, and I have joy (and I have fun like with Jakelicks and Heath Baby madness, or the butt thread, what have you)...but then...I can't be in denial about 1) this erosion, the "creeping chill" as you said, Edgar, in their relationship; then 2) the tragic end of Jack, the heartbreaking place we last see Ennis...

kathy

I'm not sure I agree that there was a "creeping chill" in their relationship at the end.  To me, I think they loved each other more than ever; they were both just frustrated and torn (especially Jack, but Ennis, too) on how their lives how panned out.  I think Jack's comment about "missing you so much I can hardly stand it" and Ennis' jealousy over Mexico and declaration that he "couldn't stand it anymore" shows to me that they were still deeply in love and committed to each other.  The pain and burden of being apart was weighing more heavily than ever.  I like to think of the last meeting as a turning point for them, especially Ennis, if Jack had lived.  Just my opinion, though.  Let me know if I'm interpreting your "creeping chill" comment wrong.   

[NoReins]

I'm not sure I agree that there was a "creeping chill" in their relationship at the end.  To me, I think they loved each other more than ever; they were both just frustrated and torn (especially Jack, but Ennis, too) on how their lives how panned out.  I think Jack's comment about "missing you so much I can hardly stand it" and Ennis' jealousy over Mexico and declaration that he "couldn't stand it anymore" shows to me that they were still deeply in love and committed to each other.  The pain and burden of being apart was weighing more heavily than ever.  I like to think of the last meeting as a turning point for them, especially Ennis, if Jack had lived.  Just my opinion, though.  Let me know if I'm interpreting your "creeping chill" comment wrong.   

I'm with you on this one stacp. A "creeping chill" in their relationship would have stopped Jack from saying he missed Ennis so much, I reckon.

[tpe]

Hard to say, from my point of view.  Very telling is the use of the word "almost" in the short story: "they torqued things almost to where they had been..."  It signifies some change -- probably not for the better.   Perhaps the reference to "creeping chill" derives from this ambiguity.

Perhaps we are now a bit OOT?  This would make a wonderful thread.

[MississaugaRed]

Which means that the dozy embrace is the last uncomplicated moment, and the otel embrace the last close and affectionate one, and everything after that's  moving away. As someone I know once said of a mutual acquaintance, "If happiness is a point, he's been moving further away from it all his life". Is this what Jack and Ennis do after the high point of the reunion?

Wow.

Welchwitch, that sums up the feels we get after this scene, perfectly, doesn't it?  From this point right up until the divorce misunderstanding, their meetings seem to have an innocent joy about them, but there is still the silent knowledge that they are living within boundaries. Their being together again is so new and exciting to them, they can ignore the fences around their relationship for a while.

After the divorce scene - and Mexico - well, we can see them spiraling slowly further and further away from the contentment of the Siesta Motel.  I think that's why after Ennis's divorce it gets especially painful to watch.  Our innocence, our hope for them becomes bruised then, too.  Can't pretend anymore that things will likely work themselves out.

Fishing trips a couple of times a year up in the mountains; just not enough landscape for a love this large.

Yet somehow within the walls of that small motel room they found room to really be with each other, for a brief time.

[edgar]

Although I tremble at the thougt of risking the displeasure of tpe by venturing further  , I feel I should answer the several people who have asked about the phrase "creeping chill" which I introduced. (tpe, feel free to move it to another thread if you want.)

Goodbye after Brokeback: there's a chill, obviously, when Ennis so coldly says, "guess i'll see ya round." Brrr. And he almost succeeded in killing the relationship right there.

Reunion and motel: Obviously there is no chill at first.  However, when Jack asks, "what are we going to do now," Ennis just says, well, we won't really have a relationship. I'm going home now. That's a chill. Jack convinces him to "give him something to go on" and they enjoy a few days together.

After Ennis's divorce: Once again, the word coldly really applies to Ennis's rebuff. And, it is implied, right after this is the first time Jack seeks sex with another man since the reunion. The infidelity is not a step forward and could (does) lead to problems later. A chill, or whatever you want to call it.

And, basically, as I said above, I have realized that their relationship was never the same after that. It was Jack's determination and optimism that kept the relationship going, and some little part of that is frozen after the Ennis's divorce scene. I'm not saying their relationship ended there..... but it was never the same. Lee wants us to experience that, so we never see them embrace or show much affection at all after that until the previously discussed last scene, which obviously is tense and difficult.

I wasn't thinking about this when I wrote "creeping chill," but notice how Jack, at that last meeting, complains about how cold it is every time they get together. That's not just weather he's talking about, consciously or uncosciously.

Okay. Please don't  ^^) me, tpe.

 

[welshwitch]

Marlowe's " infinite riches in a little room", perhaps, or Donne's notion of the bed he shares with his mistress as the centre of the universe, containing everything that exists as they are the world.

[MississaugaRed]

Although I tremble at the thougt of risking the displeasure of tpe by venturing further  , I feel I should answer the several people who have asked about the phrase "creeping chill" which I introduced. (tpe, feel free to move it to another thread if you want.)
snip ...
I wasn't thinking about this when I wrote "creeping chill," but notice how Jack, at that last meeting, complains about how cold it is every time they get together. That's not just weather he's talking about, consciously or uncosciously.

Okay. Please don't  ^^) me, tpe.

 

edgar ... imminently worthy of it's own thread ... or a throw down!    

I do see your point(s), it's what makes BBM more painful to watch with each passing minute after "Aguirre says to bring'em down". Whether it's self-perservation, frustration, harsh reality ... the warmth of their love doesn't lessen, I think, but the relationship they try to maintain does seem to suffer a chill, so little to feed it over the years. 

It has been referred to (gently) as a "slow erosion" before (a la Annie's words for Ennis's and Alma's crumbling relationship) but your creeping chill analogy works, too.  I don't know if the motel scene computes for me as a "chill" though; it has the heat of two bodies clinging tight in the dark, Ennis's words sound more of resignation and regret to me, rather than chill ... or it did before, next time I see it, who knows ??  My perspections often change with each viewing, depending on the discussions here that I've read ... 

Now .. go hide before tpe shows up! 

[MississaugaRed]

Marlowe's " infinite riches in a little room", perhaps, or Donne's notion of the bed he shares with his mistress as the centre of the universe, containing everything that exists as they are the world.

I love that, welchwitch ... the notion that "the bed Jack and Ennis share is the centre of the universe, containing everything that exists as they are the world." 

 

Someone with art talent must creat an image of them together in the motel bed with that caption underneath ...   

[stacp]

Although I tremble at the thougt of risking the displeasure of tpe by venturing further  , I feel I should answer the several people who have asked about the phrase "creeping chill" which I introduced. (tpe, feel free to move it to another thread if you want.)

Goodbye after Brokeback: there's a chill, obviously, when Ennis so coldly says, "guess i'll see ya round." Brrr. And he almost succeeded in killing the relationship right there.

Reunion and motel: Obviously there is no chill at first.  However, when Jack asks, "what are we going to do now," Ennis just says, well, we won't really have a relationship. I'm going home now. That's a chill. Jack convinces him to "give him something to go on" and they enjoy a few days together.

After Ennis's divorce: Once again, the word coldly really applies to Ennis's rebuff. And, it is implied, right after this is the first time Jack seeks sex with another man since the reunion. The infidelity is not a step forward and could (does) lead to problems later. A chill, or whatever you want to call it.

And, basically, as I said above, I have realized that their relationship was never the same after that. It was Jack's determination and optimism that kept the relationship going, and some little part of that is frozen after the Ennis's divorce scene. I'm not saying their relationship ended there..... but it was never the same. Lee wants us to experience that, so we never see them embrace or show much affection at all after that until the previously discussed last scene, which obviously is tense and difficult.

I wasn't thinking about this when I wrote "creeping chill," but notice how Jack, at that last meeting, complains about how cold it is every time they get together. That's not just weather he's talking about, consciously or uncosciously.

Okay. Please don't  ^^) me, tpe.

 

Edgar, thank you for that thoughtful explaination.  I agree with what your saying about the post-divorce.  I think Jack lets a little hope die after he realizes it wasn't Alma that was holding Ennis back from being with Jack but it was Ennis himself.   I do think Jack starts to realize that it will never be between he and Ennis the way he wants it to be; aka, "the sweet life."  I agree with MississaugRed above that their love never chilled, but the relationship was strained at the end.  Again, thanks for elaborating.  I learn so much from everyone here.

Now, back OT.  Hey, what about those glistening bodies in that motel bed?   

[NoReins]

Now, back OT.  Hey, what about those glistening bodies in that motel bed?   

Tell you what - you really made me smile with that. Needed to, after reading all the sad posts on here.

[christie wood]

Although I tremble at the thougt of risking the displeasure of tpe by venturing further  , I feel I should answer the several people who have asked about the phrase "creeping chill" which I introduced. (tpe, feel free to move it to another thread if you want.)

Goodbye after Brokeback: there's a chill, obviously, when Ennis so coldly says, "guess i'll see ya round." Brrr. And he almost succeeded in killing the relationship right there.

Reunion and motel: Obviously there is no chill at first.  However, when Jack asks, "what are we going to do now," Ennis just says, well, we won't really have a relationship. I'm going home now. That's a chill. Jack convinces him to "give him something to go on" and they enjoy a few days together.

After Ennis's divorce: Once again, the word coldly really applies to Ennis's rebuff. And, it is implied, right after this is the first time Jack seeks sex with another man since the reunion. The infidelity is not a step forward and could (does) lead to problems later. A chill, or whatever you want to call it.

And, basically, as I said above, I have realized that their relationship was never the same after that. It was Jack's determination and optimism that kept the relationship going, and some little part of that is frozen after the Ennis's divorce scene. I'm not saying their relationship ended there..... but it was never the same. Lee wants us to experience that, so we never see them embrace or show much affection at all after that until the previously discussed last scene, which obviously is tense and difficult.

I wasn't thinking about this when I wrote "creeping chill," but notice how Jack, at that last meeting, complains about how cold it is every time they get together. That's not just weather he's talking about, consciously or uncosciously.

Okay. Please don't  ^^) me, tpe.

 

Edgar I thought this was a very well thought-out and intelligently argued point you were making, but I dont necessarily agree! 

I think the words "creeping chill" have a sinsiter overtone for me, and I dont see Ennis and Jack's relationship as being anything other than difficult,  secretive and passionate.  It was Ennis' inability to face his own truth - that he was in love with Jack Twist - that kept the relationship at a close distance for 20 years, but there was always love.  And I certainly didnt think Jack using the word "cold" during their final meeting meant anything other than the obvious meaning...I dont think there was any hidden undertones, apart from the connection to Mexico.

[gimmejack]

Although I tremble at the thougt of risking the displeasure of tpe by venturing further  , I feel I should answer the several people who have asked about the phrase "creeping chill" which I introduced. (tpe, feel free to move it to another thread if you want.)

Goodbye after Brokeback: there's a chill, obviously, when Ennis so coldly says, "guess i'll see ya round." Brrr. And he almost succeeded in killing the relationship right there.

Reunion and motel: Obviously there is no chill at first.  However, when Jack asks, "what are we going to do now," Ennis just says, well, we won't really have a relationship. I'm going home now. That's a chill. Jack convinces him to "give him something to go on" and they enjoy a few days together.

After Ennis's divorce: Once again, the word coldly really applies to Ennis's rebuff. And, it is implied, right after this is the first time Jack seeks sex with another man since the reunion. The infidelity is not a step forward and could (does) lead to problems later. A chill, or whatever you want to call it.

And, basically, as I said above, I have realized that their relationship was never the same after that. It was Jack's determination and optimism that kept the relationship going, and some little part of that is frozen after the Ennis's divorce scene. I'm not saying their relationship ended there..... but it was never the same. Lee wants us to experience that, so we never see them embrace or show much affection at all after that until the previously discussed last scene, which obviously is tense and difficult.

I wasn't thinking about this when I wrote "creeping chill," but notice how Jack, at that last meeting, complains about how cold it is every time they get together. That's not just weather he's talking about, consciously or uncosciously.

Okay. Please don't  ^^) me, tpe.

 

I agree Edgar...Beautifully thought out.

[ksxks]

I'm not sure I agree that there was a "creeping chill" in their relationship at the end.  To me, I think they loved each other more than ever; they were both just frustrated and torn (especially Jack, but Ennis, too) on how their lives how panned out.  I think Jack's comment about "missing you so much I can hardly stand it" and Ennis' jealousy over Mexico and declaration that he "couldn't stand it anymore" shows to me that they were still deeply in love and committed to each other.  The pain and burden of being apart was weighing more heavily than ever.  I like to think of the last meeting as a turning point for them, especially Ennis, if Jack had lived.  Just my opinion, though.  Let me know if I'm interpreting your "creeping chill" comment wrong.   

I'll let edgar speak for himself of course regarding the "creeping chill," but it does seem we see some depression in those last meetings, besides seeing some of the passion so deep it's hurting them both.  In any event, we all look at the same scene and our minds and hearts pick out something relevant to our own lives and color our interpretations.

A Realist myself yet with Dreamer and Romantic rising, I love seeing that scene, as you say, stacp, as a turning point, if Jack had lived.  (And my favorite fanfic does exactly that.)  I do see their love so strong there -- and it's a tremendously moving scene -- but I can see that things could perhaps have taken a downward turn after that, though I'd rather think it could have been the bottom point from which they had to fix it, since Ennis couldn't stand it anymore.

kathy

[lamusica]

While I really like your post, edgar, I have to say that I don't think Ennis is totally conscious of giving off the chill.  I really don't think he realizes he can possibly do anything other than what he does.  He refuses to turn his back on his kids because he loves them and sees them as his responsibility.  He just doesn't even see the possibility that he and Jack could ever live together.  He's not a man of vision and dreams lilke Jack.  He sees himself as stuck.  That comes out in their final scene together, but it is present throughout the movie.  Ennis can't be anything but what he is.  If that is cold, and hurtful to Jack, or to Alma, or to Cassie, it's just who Ennis is. To me, that is part of the allure of Ennis.  He's a man to pity, but one we have to understand as tipical of his time and place and upbringing.  Had he been any different, the story would have been entirely different.

[ksxks]

Which means that the dozy embrace is the last uncomplicated moment, and the otel embrace the last close and affectionate one, and everything after that's  moving away. As someone I know once said of a mutual acquaintance, "If happiness is a point, he's been moving further away from it all his life". Is this what Jack and Ennis do after the high point of the reunion?

Wow.

Welchwitch, that sums up the feels we get after this scene, perfectly, doesn't it?  From this point right up until the divorce misunderstanding, their meetings seem to have an innocent joy about them, but there is still the silent knowledge that they are living within boundaries. Their being together again is so new and exciting to them, they can ignore the fences around their relationship for a while.

After the divorce scene - and Mexico - well, we can see them spiraling slowly further and further away from the contentment of the Siesta Motel.  I think that's why after Ennis's divorce it gets especially painful to watch.  Our innocence, our hope for them becomes bruised then, too.  Can't pretend anymore that things will likely work themselves out.
Fishing trips a couple of times a year up in the mountains; just not enough landscape for a love this large.

Yet somehow within the walls of that small motel room they found room to really be with each other, for a brief time.

Oh jeez...Your words are most beautiful, and heartbreaking.  Well, at least it's a tragedy as "beautiful" as the love is beautiful.

For me, the moving-away starts in the motel room with Ennis's "reckon there's nothing we can do..."  After such a brief coming-together-again...

kathy

[ksxks]

Edgar, thank you for that thoughtful explaination.  I agree with what your saying about the post-divorce.  I think Jack lets a little hope die after he realizes it wasn't Alma that was holding Ennis back from being with Jack but it was Ennis himself.   I do think Jack starts to realize that it will never be between he and Ennis the way he wants it to be; aka, "the sweet life."  I agree with MississaugRed above that their love never chilled, but the relationship was strained at the end.  Again, thanks for elaborating.  I learn so much from everyone here.

Now, back OT.  Hey, what about those glistening bodies in that motel bed?   

Yes, back to Jack's sweet smile into Ennis's sweet damp curls, to afterglow and satiation (momentary)...but seriously, these discussions are so meaningful to me, also.  I love the perceptive people we have here, and many perspectives.  Mine can tend to be, like yours Mississauga, transmutable...and that's the richness of this story and movie.

kathy

[keren_b]

For me, the moving-away starts in the motel room with Ennis's "reckon there's nothing we can do..."  After such a brief coming-together-again...

Ennis's "I doubt there's nothing we can do" is the same as "I'll stick with beans". it's a typical Ennis response. he's always sticking with the status quo, no matter how miserable it makes him, unable to see his possibilities for happiness. Jack is the dreamer, Ennis doesn't dare to dream. he doesn't know how. I agree with lamusica he's not being cold intentionaly, that's just who Ennis is, he's too emotioanlly inhibited. poor Ennis, my heart goes out for him.

[MississaugaRed]

I wasn't thinking about this when I wrote "creeping chill," but notice how Jack, at that last meeting, complains about how cold it is every time they get together. That's not just weather he's talking about, consciously or unconsciously.

Okay. Please don't  ^^) me, tpe.

 

I think the words "creeping chill" have a sinister overtone for me, and I don't see Ennis and Jack's relationship as being anything other than difficult,  secretive and passionate.  It was Ennis' inability to face his own truth - that he was in love with Jack Twist - that kept the relationship at a close distance for 20 years, but there was always love.  And I certainly didn't think Jack using the word "cold" during their final meeting meant anything other than the obvious meaning...I dint think there was any hidden undertones, apart from the connection to Mexico.

   I know ... but these are both two excellent points, which goes back (AGAIN) to the brilliance of BBM, IMHO.

Although Jack's use of the word cold was likely simply referring to the weather conditions they always endure, there's still the subliminal side of the film making and story telling to consider.  I can easily see how the word "cold" in this instance could have been intended, by Ang, by Annie, to also symbolize the deteriorating conditions of their relationship.  The relationship, not their love, if we can be allowed to separate the two for a moment ..

We can of course just take any of their words at face value, but great film-makers and storytellers bury much under the surface.  They imbue inanimate objects with intense emotional connection (i.e. the shirts) and they give hidden meaning to simple actions (Ennis rubbing Jack's arm in the motel room scene conveys more than just a need for tactile connection, it speaks words of love that Ennis can't vocalize). 

There are hundreds of examples we've all picked up on in BBM during various discussions.  Even though they talk to each other in the motel room as much as we ever see any other time, it's still the eyes and the body language that speaks loudest.  They way they are holding tight to each other before being tossed out into the cold world again.

Sorry for being slightly OT, but I came constantly amazed at how rich this story is ... and at how much more you all teach me about it still.   

Just my 20 cents (I LaShawn too much for just 2!) 

[welshwitch]

There's the "left out in the cold" idea of being outside things - they're outsiders in a homophobic society, outsiders in their marriages. Ttheir meetings take place outside, and often on the cold, as they were, at the end, in the cold of the snow on Brokeback. That snow came and went quickly but Aguirre, theri Cassandra, says there's a worse one coming, and he's right. Jack says near the end "Going to snow tonight for sure" ; whether he's right or not about literal snow, after this the coldness between them appears. The snow pushed them off the mountain after their first summer and was I think indicative of things to come.

[welshwitch]

It also occurs to me  ( too hot to think quickly) that heat is associated with passion. In FNIT it was the cold that brought them together - Ennis is literally out in the cold till Jack calls him in; they keep each other warm literally and metaphorically. Then in the motel scene they're shown sweaty and hot, but we never see them like that again.

[ksxks]

For me, the moving-away starts in the motel room with Ennis's "reckon there's nothing we can do..."  After such a brief coming-together-again...

Ennis's "I doubt there's nothing we can do" is the same as "I'll stick with beans". it's a typical Ennis response. he's always sticking with the status quo, no matter how miserable it makes him, unable to see his possibilities for happiness. Jack is the dreamer, Ennis doesn't dare to dream. he doesn't know how. I agree with lamusica he's not being cold intentionaly, that's just who Ennis is, he's too emotioanlly inhibited. poor Ennis, my heart goes out for him.

Oh I'm so glad you said that, keren -- I see now how that statement of Ennis's is just Ennis being Ennis, sticking with beans.

And as we were talking bout over in horniest Jack thread, after this motel room scene, we see Ennis not just sticking with beans in any event -- hightailing it inside the apt to gather up his things and get out in the wilds with Jack.

kathy

[ksxks]

   I know ... but these are both two excellent points, which goes back (AGAIN) to the brilliance of BBM, IMHO.

Although Jack's use of the word cold was likely simply referring to the weather conditions they always endure, there's still the subliminal side of the film making and story telling to consider.  I can easily see how the word "cold" in this instance could have been intended, by Ang, by Annie, to also symbolize the deteriorating conditions of their relationship.  The relationship, not their love, if we can be allowed to separate the two for a moment ..

We can of course just take any of their words at face value, but great film-makers and storytellers bury much under the surface.  They imbue inanimate objects with intense emotional connection (i.e. the shirts) and they give hidden meaning to simple actions (Ennis rubbing Jack's arm in the motel room scene conveys more than just a need for tactile connection, it speaks words of love that Ennis can't vocalize). 

There are hundreds of examples we've all picked up on in BBM during various discussions.  Even though they talk to each other in the motel room as much as we ever see any other time, it's still the eyes and the body language that speaks loudest.  They way they are holding tight to each other before being tossed out into the cold world again.

Sorry for being slightly OT, but I came constantly amazed at how rich this story is ... and at how much more you all teach me about it still.   

Just my 20 cents (I LaShawn too much for just 2!) 

I mainly wanted to comment on what I bolded above.  I very often find it's appropriate or necessary to make that distinction, between their love, and their relationship.  That's why we can speak of the "erosion" of their relationship -- but certainly not of their love.

I shouldn't be LaShawing, especial OT, either, but it seems we all grant that every single word and act and scene in this story and movie are purposeful.  Not just face value.  Though who knows, we may find something that's just there, a cigar that's just a cigar.

Which reminds me, I have a dialogue question -- have to go find out where to ask it.

kathy

[jeffjoe]

The power of this scene (beyond the sexual idea) is all that happen inside the characters... it's only love sincere and inocent, who don't want a hug in the bed or a sweet words like a whisper in the ear... so simple as complex but over all the adjectives BEAUTIFUL