Topic: motel room scene

[erica loves jack]

Thank you guys very much, keren_b, tpe, and greenfrog.

I think I could put together a nice essay with all of my 'deep' paragraphs. haha.

But back to Jack and Ennis.... when they're talking about when Jack went back to talk to Aguirre the next summer, he only says 'He told me you hadn't been back, so I left.' but he didn't say anything about Aguirre's harsh words about he and Ennis stemming the rose. I think that says a lot about Jack. I think, both, Jack isn't saying anything for himself and he isn't telling Ennis because he knows he doesn't need to hear it.... it would only cause him more pain inside, knowing what he feels with Jack isn't accepted by yet another person.

[tpe]

Thank you guys very much, keren_b, tpe, and greenfrog.

I think I could put together a nice essay with all of my 'deep' paragraphs. haha.

But back to Jack and Ennis.... when they're talking about when Jack went back to talk to Aguirre the next summer, he only says 'He told me you hadn't been back, so I left.' but he didn't say anything about Aguirre's harsh words about he and Ennis stemming the rose. I think that says a lot about Jack. I think, both, Jack isn't saying anything for himself and he isn't telling Ennis because he knows he doesn't need to hear it.... it would only cause him more pain inside, knowing what he feels with Jack isn't accepted by yet another person.

Some people have interpreted this to show that Jack can lie in his dealings with Ennis.  This particular instance is often used to demonstrate that Jack's "Me neither" response to Ennis's "I'm not queer" declaration is of a similar vein.

But I agree that whenever Jack does not tell the whole truth to Ennis, it is motivated by a knowledge that Ennis would not be able to deal with it.  It tells us about Jack's sensitivity, and not a glibness in getting out of difficult situations.

[erica loves jack]

...and thank you christie wood!! sorry, I missed ya!

[greenfrog]

Thank you guys very much, keren_b, tpe, and greenfrog.

I think I could put together a nice essay with all of my 'deep' paragraphs. haha.

But back to Jack and Ennis.... when they're talking about when Jack went back to talk to Aguirre the next summer, he only says 'He told me you hadn't been back, so I left.' but he didn't say anything about Aguirre's harsh words about he and Ennis stemming the rose. I think that says a lot about Jack. I think, both, Jack isn't saying anything for himself and he isn't telling Ennis because he knows he doesn't need to hear it.... it would only cause him more pain inside, knowing what he feels with Jack isn't accepted by yet another person.

Very true.  :\'(  :\'(  :\'(

[rick65]

But I agree that whenever Jack does not tell the whole truth to Ennis, it is motivated by a knowledge that Ennis would not be able to deal with it.  It tells us about Jack's sensitivity, and not a glibness in getting out of difficult situations.

I agree 110%. tpe. This isn't Jack hiding the truth or even lying. It's Jack showing concern for Ennis' welfare. It's Jack caring about Ennis' feelings. It's Jack not hurting Ennis when there isn't any need to do such a thing. If Jack had disclosed everything nothing would have been gained, only destroyed. The hurting had already been done, no reason to contribute again. 

[greenfrog]

Very true Ricky.

Great post 

[tpe]

I agree 110%. tpe. This isn't Jack hiding the truth or even lying. It's Jack showing concern for Ennis' welfare. It's Jack caring about Ennis' feelings. It's Jack not hurting Ennis when there isn't any need to do such a thing. If Jack had disclosed everything nothing would have been gained, only destroyed. The hurting had already been done, no reason to contribute again. 

rick65, thanks.  Certainly, Jack knew that Ennis had a lot of hurt deep inside of him.  They understood each other.

And as the Poet said:

A truth that's told with bad intent
Beats all the lies you can invent

 

[welshwitch]

There are things that may be true but don't need to be said - the fact that they may be true doesn;t make them necessarily appropriate, and given how jumpy Ennis is at the thought of being found out, there would be no point in telling him about Aguirre and starting him thinking that Aguirre had worked out what their relationship was. Doesn;t matter to Jack, who now lives hundreds of miles away - but Aguirre is probably a lot closer to where Ennis lives.

[tpe]

There are things that may be true but don't need to be said - the fact that they may be true doesn;t make them necessarily appropriate, and given how jumpy Ennis is at the thought of being found out, there would be no point in telling him about Aguirre and starting him thinking that Aguirre had worked out what their relationship was. Doesn;t matter to Jack, who now lives hundreds of miles away - but Aguirre is probably a lot closer to where Ennis lives.

Yes.  Anything that would cast doubt on his sexual identity would throw Ennis in a tizzy.  I am sure Jack realized this from the very start (e.g., Ennis's disquiet after the FNIT) and sought to placate him at every opportunity.  This included Jack having to assure Ennis that Jack himself was "ain't queer" -- up until the last meeting by the Lake when Jack stood up for his internal feelings and needs.

[ksxks]

There are things that may be true but don't need to be said - the fact that they may be true doesn;t make them necessarily appropriate, and given how jumpy Ennis is at the thought of being found out, there would be no point in telling him about Aguirre and starting him thinking that Aguirre had worked out what their relationship was. Doesn;t matter to Jack, who now lives hundreds of miles away - but Aguirre is probably a lot closer to where Ennis lives.

Yes.  Anything that would cast doubt on his sexual identity would throw Ennis in a tizzy.  I am sure Jack realized this from the very start (e.g., Ennis's disquiet after the FNIT) and sought to placate him at every opportunity.  This included Jack having to assure Ennis that Jack himself was "ain't queer" -- up until the last meeting by the Lake when Jack stood up for his internal feelings and needs.

You've just brought up this big rush of feelings in me, for some reason.  Thinking about Jack and how deeply he loved Ennis and wanted to help Ennis feel comfortable with himself...until he just could not take it anymore.  That confrontation scene, as painful as it is, is absolutely one of my favorite scenes.  I love Jack for how he finally had to express his pain and frustration; I love Ennis for finally letting go and breaking down; I love how they came together right at the end there...and  I wonder what happened right after what we saw, before Ennis drove away.

I'm sorry -- we're in Motel Room Scene thread.  How'd we get to confrontation scene? 

I really just meant to say I love the phrase you said, Tom.  I want to use "ain't queer" as an adjective now.  Jack was ain't queer.  Ennis was ain't queer.  I am ain't queer (not true -- I'm just saying that to make you feel more comfortable -- not you personally, Tom, but "you" whoever needs to feel more comfortable). 

kathy

[tpe]

You've just brought up this big rush of feelings in me, for some reason.  Thinking about Jack and how deeply he loved Ennis and wanted to help Ennis feel comfortable with himself...until he just could not take it anymore.  That confrontation scene, as painful as it is, is absolutely one of my favorite scenes.  I love Jack for how he finally had to express his pain and frustration; I love Ennis for finally letting go and breaking down; I love how they came together right at the end there...and  I wonder what happened right after what we saw, before Ennis drove away.

I'm sorry -- we're in Motel Room Scene thread.  How'd we get to confrontation scene? 

I really just meant to say I love the phrase you said, Tom.  I want to use "ain't queer" as an adjective now.  Jack was ain't queer.  Ennis was ain't queer.  I am ain't queer (not true -- I'm just saying that to make you feel more comfortable -- not you personally, Tom, but "you" whoever needs to feel more comfortable). 
kathy

I did spot the errror whern I was reading my post as you questied it.

Since you pointed this out, I will let the error stand as it is. 

Not too OOT: the discussion arose because we know that in the motel scene, Jack deliberately left something out when he recounted his visit to Aguirre the next summer.  We justify his deliberate half-truths by citing his love for Ennis.  In the scene by the lake, we see the truth revealed, and it hurt Ennis so much.  That was why he said "I'm sorry".

In the Motel scene and in the scene by the lake -- truth or untruth -- Jack never wanted to hurt Ennis.  This is at the very root of his "lies".

 

[welshwitch]

The motel room scene is of course the starting -point of all the lies or deceptions that continue right up to that scene by the lake, and beyond. That they can't tell the truth to each other or to anyone else is the fissure which will eventually open up to engulf them.

[monicita]

I see it the way ww does. Maybe those who say that Jack only wanted to protect Ennis are right. But what did he do to himself? What did it do to Jack to keep on lying right up to the last time they met (and I do mean lying to himself as well as to Ennis)? In the end, it made him take up with Randall. Sad as that is for me, I am always relieved to know that Jack finally came out of his "always protecting Ennis from himself" mode. Just because he was the more articulate one doesn't mean he didn't need protection as well. How did Ennis protect Jack? By telling his wife they were fishing buddies? I don't know why, but this is getting me all heated up. Maybe because I sense that, in some way, Jack is given the role of the woman protecting her man from too harsh emotional truths here. So many women have been brought up not to question the status quo their men need to believe in. Even if it almost breaks them. Ennis, being the more emotional one, the one who may be more in touch with his feelings, gets to play this role. Always holding back, not telling truths so Ennis won't have to face up to them. Makes for a great love movie, but for a terrible life. Kind of a paradox here, isn't there?  Because I love BBM so very much because of this tragedy and at the same time I rage against the injustices of society and upbringing and the self-mutilation of Ennis and Jack. :\'(

monicita

[tpe]

Every year unfulfilled was like a cancer to Jack.  And every year trying to keep the status quo was getting increasingly difficult for Ennis.  The practical origination point for all this can be thought to be the motel scene -- where Ennis establishes the status quo and Jack acquiesces, but always hoping for a change of heart.  We see them slowly being eaten up from the inside as time passes -- beautifully expressed cinematically in the sequence of scenes after the Thanksgiving episodes.    We can therefore see the motel scene and the last meeting by the lake as pendant pieces.  One must be referenced with the other to appreciate their mutual journey of the heart.

Jack tried to protect Ennis by lying to him about certain realities and possibilities that Ennis was unwilling to face. But we should also note that Ennis maintained the status quo because he though it was the best way he could protect and nurture whatever love both of them shared with each other against the backdrop of a disapproving society.  The motel scene and the final meeting by the lake show both of them grappling with the contradictions inherent in their individual approaches.  That they could not reconcile both visions is the tragedy of it all.

[ksxks]

I really just meant to say I love the phrase you said, Tom.  I want to use "ain't queer" as an adjective now.  Jack was ain't queer.  Ennis was ain't queer.  I am ain't queer (not true -- I'm just saying that to make you feel more comfortable -- not you personally, Tom, but "you" whoever needs to feel more comfortable). 
kathy

I did spot the errror whern I was reading my post as you questied it.

Since you pointed this out, I will let the error stand as it is. 

Darn -- that was an error?  Shoot.  I wanted to add it to the BBM dictionary.  I thought it was cool, and you made up a new funny thing.  Well, it's still funny.

kathy

[greenfrog]

Every year unfulfilled was like a cancer to Jack.  And every year trying to keep the status quo was getting increasingly difficult for Ennis.  The practical origination point for all this can be thought to be the motel scene -- where Ennis establishes the status quo and Jack acquiesces, but always hoping for a change of heart.  We see them slowly being eaten up from the inside as time passes -- beautifully expressed cinematically in the sequence of scenes after the Thanksgiving episodes.    We can therefore see the motel scene and the last meeting by the lake as pendant pieces.  One must be referenced with the other to appreciate their mutual journey of the heart.

Jack tried to protect Ennis by lying to him about certain realities and possibilities that Ennis was unwilling to face. But we should also note that Ennis maintained the status quo because he though it was the best way he could protect and nurture whatever love both of them shared with each other against the backdrop of a disapproving society.  The motel scene and the final meeting by the lake show both of them grappling with the contradictions inherent in their individual approaches.  That they could not reconcile both visions is the tragedy of it all.

Interesting post tpe.

Jack did lie to Ennis a number of times, but then I think of a quote from The Simpsons . .

"The lie made us happier than the truth ever could".

I doubt telling the truth to Ennis would have made the situation any better. It probably would have only made it worse.

[tpe]

Jack did lie to Ennis a number of times, but then I think of a quote from The Simpsons . .

"The lie made us happier than the truth ever could".

I doubt telling the truth to Ennis would have made the situation any better. It probably would have only made it worse.

I agree.  Jack realized that it would not have helped.  Look at waht happened in their last meeting by the lake.  It hurt jack as much as it hurt Ennis...

 

[monicita]

Well,yes, it hurt. But sometimes it needs to hurt, before it gets better. I'm certainly not in favour of not saying things in order not to get hurt now, my experience is that it hurts even more later on, when you have to face up to it (as can be seen in their last reunion). On the other hand, I'm not a gay man and maybe I don't really know what it is like to have to protect each other in this way. The only thing I do believe in is that in the long run only openness and joyful acceptance of being gay will change things...

thougthful 

monicita

[tpe]

Well,yes, it hurt. But sometimes it needs to hurt, before it gets better. I'm certainly not in favour of not saying things in order not to get hurt now, my experience is that it hurts even more later on, when you have to face up to it (as can be seen in their last reunion). On the other hand, I'm not a gay man and maybe I don't really know what it is like to have to protect each other in this way. The only thing I do believe in is that in the long run only openness and joyful acceptance of being gay will change things...

thougthful 

monicita

I think Jack was also in a quandry here. 

Had he told the truth, even early on, it would have hurt Ennis, who could not deal with his inner demons.  Perhaps he feared that he would have lost Ennis entirely if he didn't leave certain things unsaid.  Perhaps he was right in his fear...

[FulOfSadness]

As wrong as it seems, if Jack had told Ennis he 'rides more than bulls, not rolling his own' then how would Ennis reacte? That is one line in the book i woulda killed to have in the movie ("you do it with other guys? JACK?") That line shocked the hell out of me on the first viewing. Of course Jack denies it (much like the "Me neither" line) but what is also ambiguous is how would Ennis had reacted at such a young age when him and Jack were still 'new'? Ennis/Jack had so much tension when Jack announced he'd been to Mexico a couple of times, so Ennis just became candescent (a favorite word of mine meaning 'white hot') Jack did well by not telling Ennis, IMO. But that scene in the movie when John Twist tells Ennis, Jack found another was all too disappointing for Ennis. He looked so crestfallen(Yet another word i love, meaning 'discouraged' or 'suddenly weighted with sadness/disappointment') ALA, Jack was going to move on.

[greenfrog]

Jack did lie to Ennis a number of times, but then I think of a quote from The Simpsons . .

"The lie made us happier than the truth ever could".

I doubt telling the truth to Ennis would have made the situation any better. It probably would have only made it worse.

I agree.  Jack realized that it would not have helped.  Look at waht happened in their last meeting by the lake.  It hurt jack as much as it hurt Ennis...

 

I don't think Ennis realised how much it was hurting Jack either.

[tpe]

I don't think Ennis realised how much it was hurting Jack either.

I do tend to agree.  I believe he only realized this after Jack's death -- together with the realization of how much Jack had loved him.

[FulOfSadness]

I don't think Ennis realised how much it was hurting Jack either.

I do tend to agree.  I believe he only realized this after Jack's death -- together with the realization of how much Jack had loved him.

I also agree. Ennis seemed so blind to Jack-did he care? I think he did, but was so caught up into his own thing, that any fishing trip he was just so happy, not having time to think of the bad. Right.

How did he not think Jack was gay? Is he really that slow that he actually believes Jack would always hold off for male companionship till the FTs-like Ennis did. He did not see how much Jack truly loved him either, till it was too late. I think he realizes the love in the 'shirt smelling' scene. Jack took his shirt,ALA, he loved and missed Ennis-more words spoken about it than ever said

and Greenfrog, don't overrate my posts, it makes me feel all icky

[tpe]

I really thought that Ennis acted the way he did (keeping Jack at a distance) because he truly believed that this was the best way to protect their relationship.  That is, to keep it hidden, and to meet only a few times in the middle of nowhere -- safe from prying eyes.  Of course, he didn;t realize until too late that for Jack, this just wasn't enough.

[ksxks]

Well,yes, it hurt. But sometimes it needs to hurt, before it gets better. I'm certainly not in favour of not saying things in order not to get hurt now, my experience is that it hurts even more later on, when you have to face up to it (as can be seen in their last reunion). On the other hand, I'm not a gay man and maybe I don't really know what it is like to have to protect each other in this way. The only thing I do believe in is that in the long run only openness and joyful acceptance of being gay will change things...

thougthful 

monicita

I love what you said, Monicita.  But shit, it's hard, being totally honest regardless of consequences, to your own mental health, and to the other person.  Ideally, of course, honesty, yes.

But with any people, not just love relationships but family and friendships, it's not an easy balance:  be honest / don't hurt the other's feelings / protect the other from what they can't handle (though this is only your perception of what they can't handle).  I guess we just have to do the best we can at the time, with whatever good judgment we have.  Balance your need to say something that might be hurtful against the other person's need to either know what you feel, or be spared it.

So, what if Jack had been honest with Ennis?  Instead of saying, "Me, neither," saying "Well, I am queer."  And if Jack had told Ennis that Aguirre saw them that first summer.  So, he would have freaked Ennis out, and he wouldn't have been able to be with Ennis perhaps.  But what right did Jack really have to be with Ennis under these arguably false pretenses?  If he'd been honest, he wouldn't have gotten Ennis, and he would have moved on; and Ennis would have just had his sad life but probably made better of it and maybe even loved Alma more, and...that's just life.  Wouldn't have been a good story, though, or a good movie.

kathy

[tpe]

I love what you said, Monicita.  But shit, it's hard, being totally honest regardless of consequences, to your own mental health, and to the other person.  Ideally, of course, honesty, yes.

But with any people, not just love relationships but family and friendships, it's not an easy balance:  be honest / don't hurt the other's feelings / protect the other from what they can't handle (though this is only your perception of what they can't handle).  I guess we just have to do the best we can at the time, with whatever good judgment we have.  Balance your need to say something that might be hurtful against the other person's need to either know what you feel, or be spared it.

So, what if Jack had been honest with Ennis?  Instead of saying, "Me, neither," saying "Well, I am queer."  And if Jack had told Ennis that Aguirre saw them that first summer.  So, he would have freaked Ennis out, and he wouldn't have been able to be with Ennis perhaps.  But what right did Jack really have to be with Ennis under these arguably false pretenses?  If he'd been honest, he wouldn't have gotten Ennis, and he would have moved on; and Ennis would have just had his sad life but probably made better of it and maybe even loved Alma more, and...that's just life.  Wouldn't have been a good story, though, or a good movie.

kathy

Yes.  I do think that Jack was afraid of losing Ennis if he told the truth and if Ennis wouldn't be able to handle the truth.

Perhaps Jack did not have that much faith in Ennis in this area.  Truthfully, I can't blame him.  Ennis just had too many unresolved issues and questions about himself.  I would be scared to open Pandora's box.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

Well said tpe!

[tpe]

Well said tpe!

Thanks CSC. 

In a very real sense, we can't blame Ennis, either.  It must have been difficult enough going through his formative years the way he did...

[FulOfSadness]

Jack would never put Ennis in such a position. (telling him the truth about him being gay) Thats what AP means when she says "though Jack never made him swear anything, and he himself wasn't a swearing kind." Jack was afraid of pushing Ennis too far, with either his wish for a sweet life, or by telling him he's gay, and he screws other men. Jack never makes Ennis feel obligated to anything-because he loves Ennis, and would never put him in a uncomfortable spot-he would of rather had his drunken life of sadness, screwing mexican prosties, to make up for the lonely times in between the annual fishing trips.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

Very well said FullOfSadness