Author Topic: This makes a lot of sense. Maybe Ennis was about to come around. (Read 29180 times)

browneyes · « **on:** Jul 04, 2006, 10:13 AM »

Ennis met Cassie in '78, according to the screenplay. Jack met Randall in '78 also. Ennis was involved with Cassie for years as was Jack with Randall (atleast I believe so). HOWEVER!!! We know that Ennis broke it off with Cassie in '83. Could the relationship between Cassie and Ennis be like the relationship with Jack & Randall? Is it possible because of how Ennis felt about Jack with other guys Jack could've possibly broke it off with Randall ("Jack's ideas never come to pass")? Maybe Ennis was preparing to finally accept a life with Jack (thats why he broke up with Cassie, to prepare for his life with Jack). I think if Jack would've lived and they met up in November, Jack would've given Ennis an ultimatum ("either have a life with me or me and this other dude will") and Ennis would've had no choice but to accept it or risk losing Jack forever. We all know he can barely stand finding out Jack has been sleeping with other men ( I think mostly because of fear of people finding out about Jack being gay, Ennis knew Jack had a sex drive and needed it fulfilled sometime) but to have Jack actually live with someone would've killed Ennis. I think Ennis realized at that last meeting he really needs to re-evaluate his relationship with Jack. And really think about the life together that Jack wants. Ennis kept leading Cassie along for 5 years even though he knew he couldn't love Cassie, same with Jack and Randall (even though I think Jack and Randall had an agreement to keep their affair STRICTLY sexual, unless Jack said otherwise).

Glynn · « **Reply #1 on:** Jul 04, 2006, 10:31 AM »

hiya

erm...who is randall ...can someone show me a pic to remind me...

thanks

glynn

browneyes · « **Reply #2 on:** Jul 04, 2006, 10:41 AM »

Randall was the dude who was hitting on Jack at that little dacne. He had the annoying wife who couldn't stop talking. And outside he was talking/hitting to Jack and invited Jack to a cabin.

Glynn · « **Reply #3 on:** Jul 04, 2006, 10:49 AM »

i thought it was him...thanks...the thing is he was not given a strong part of the story line...

so in that case it is like what happened...

Rønnaug · « **Reply #4 on:** Jul 04, 2006, 11:10 AM »

I like the idea you are proposing browneyes.... this needs thinking over...

amtamburo · « **Reply #5 on:** Jul 04, 2006, 11:21 AM »

Personally, I always thought Jack stood a better chance of convincing Ennis to give things a shot if he just basically grabbed hold of him kissed the hell out of him, and said, "Look asshole, I love you... now whatcha gonna do about it?" Hell being aggressive worked once and got pretty good results (FNIT) why not try it again?

Or even better, show up on one of their fishing trips with the shirts in tow... hang em up in the tent and see what Ennis' reaction is to this obvious show of Jack's love. Given his reaction to finding them later, perhaps it might have at least provoked a conversation that led to the 'L' word being used and maybe even a plan to try for that 'sweet life'? My thought always was that Ennis and Jack both knew how the other felt, but actually hearing it said aloud would have packed enough of a punch to wake Ennis up and make him realize what he was missing out on.

Sorry bit OT...

I have often wondered myself if Ennis might not have caved and decided to give Jack's dreams a shot. Perhaps if Jack had lived and tried again after both Ennis' girls were 18 and his child support obligation was no longer there... that really did seem to be the biggest thing holding him back besides the Earl thing.

NoReins · « **Reply #6 on:** Jul 04, 2006, 11:29 AM »

Quote from: amtamburo on Jul 04, 2006, 11:21 AM

Personally, I always thought Jack stood a better chance of convincing Ennis to give things a shot if he just basically grabbed hold of him kissed the hell out of him, and said, "Look asshole, I love you... now whatcha gonna do about it?" Hell being aggressive worked once and got pretty good results (FNIT) why not try it again?

Or even better, show up on one of their fishing trips with the shirts in tow... hang em up in the tent and see what Ennis' reaction is to this obvious show of Jack's love. Given his reaction to finding them later, perhaps it might have at least provoked a conversation that led to the 'L' word being used and maybe even a plan to try for that 'sweet life'? My thought always was that Ennis and Jack both knew how the other felt, but actually hearing it said aloud would have packed enough of a punch to wake Ennis up and make him realize what he was missing out on.

Sorry bit OT...

I have often wondered myself if Ennis might not have caved and decided to give Jack's dreams a shot. Perhaps if Jack had lived and tried again after both Ennis' girls were 18 and his child support obligation was no longer there... that really did seem to be the biggest thing holding him back besides the Earl thing.

I think you're spot on there. They had managed to keep "this thing" going for a long time without anything happening to either of them so maybe if Jack had just said "I want you, I need you and I love you - always have and always will" it might have had the desired effect. Failing that, the shirts would surely have worked - faced with the fact that Jack had felt like that right from the start, Ennis would not have been able to turn him away.

welshwitch · « **Reply #7 on:** Jul 04, 2006, 11:30 AM »

In my more pessimistic moods I feel almost certain that Ennis would always have found one more excuse - he could have gone on paying child support wherever he was and whomever he was living with. Ennis is a master of excuses and of avoiding action - whatever Jack proposes he inevitably nixes it.

I'd like to think he's come round, but that''s fan-fic-land, I think.

browneyes · « **Reply #8 on:** Jul 04, 2006, 11:50 AM »

But we all know Ennis can't stand the thought of losing Jack. He breaks down the 1st time he think he's never gonna see him again, when they come down from the mountain. Ennis could've fallen in love w/ Cassie and Jack coulkd've fallen in love w/Randall, but they wanted each other. As I said before if Jack gave Ennis an ultimatum what choice would Ennis have? He would have no choice but to take the offer. That why I think he broke up with Cassie, he had to reevaluate his relationship with Jack and what Jack wanted. When Ennis broke up w/Cassie, its possible Jack did the same thing w/Randall. Randall wasn't fulfilling the void and longing he had for Ennis, Randall just helped overcome his loneliness for a little bit. Cassie helped overcome Ennis loneliness too. Thats why I think the two relationships are very similar. When Jack's father said "most of Jack's ideas never come to pass", could that mean maybe Jack knew there was no future with Randall either, so he broke it off with Randall or could it simply mean Jack died before he had the chance to start a life with Randall? But there is no doubt if Jack started to live with Randall, he would see Ennis every chance he got,

amtamburo · « **Reply #9 on:** Jul 04, 2006, 12:04 PM »

Not only can Ennis now stand the thought of living without Jack, but even though he doesn't show it often we can tell by the way he looks at Jack and is holding him in that later tent scene, that Ennis has a very tender side to him. I think that Jack coming right out with his feelings would have made him reevaluate things.

OT but maybe explains some of my optimistic views:

This is the problem I face in my thinking. I am not gay, never have been, so I can quite honestly say that I have no idea what it is like to worry about others finding out, or being fearful of harm because of it. I suppose that makes it hard for me to understand why Ennis was so reluctant to even try to figure out a way for them to be together. If I was that much in love with someone, man or woman... I would want to be with them, and would do everything I could to make it so. But as I said... I am not gay... I was not even alive in the 60's and was only 12 in 1983. I have no clue what being gay was like then or how dangerous it really was and I have (thank god... *crosses fingers*) never been a witness to any hate crime. So it is hard for me to truly understand his fears to the point where I see why he was so scared to even think about it. Not having that experience personally I think makes it hard to truly comprehend just what it was like. :-[

browneyes · « **Reply #10 on:** Jul 04, 2006, 12:09 PM »

I'm not gay either. There was this couple at my school, they had been going out for almost 2 years. And the day after Valentine Day, the guy came out of the closet. His girlfriend was devastated and cried all day at school. But she realized if thats the way he feels then thats just what it is. Now they're really good friends.

But I do believe it Ennis or Jack said I love you to each other it could've changed their whole relationship for the better.

"If u can't fix it u gotta stand it".

NoReins · « **Reply #11 on:** Jul 04, 2006, 01:26 PM »

Quote from: browneyes on Jul 04, 2006, 12:09 PM

"If u can't fix it u gotta stand it".

Yep, and if you can't stand it, you gotta fix it. Ennis said at the lakeside "I can't stand this any more Jack".....so maybe he would try to fix it?

amtamburo · « **Reply #12 on:** Jul 04, 2006, 02:03 PM »

Quote

Yep, and if you can't stand it, you gotta fix it. Ennis said at the lakeside "I can't stand this any more Jack".....so maybe he would try to fix it?

My thoughts exactly... a lot of people took that to mean that he couldn't go on with their relationship... but he did in fact send Jack a card to set up a November meeting, so perhaps he was thinking about 'fixing it'... or at least ready to think about it.

welshwitch · « **Reply #13 on:** Jul 04, 2006, 02:15 PM »

Relationships, specially those involving what someone I knew called "sex and separation and suffering", can be repetitive or circular - each of two people is caught in the other's orbit, can't break free, but can't change the relationship either. This I think explains the postcard about Novemev=ber - this was thier pattern and whatever they said neither could break it.

Patriot1 · « **Reply #14 on:** Jul 04, 2006, 02:22 PM »

Quote from: Glynn on Jul 04, 2006, 10:31 AM

erm...who is randall ...can someone show me a pic to remind me...

Valandil Eluch · « **Reply #15 on:** Jul 04, 2006, 02:28 PM »

Well Browneyes you made an interesting point here! And i think that you are totally right! On my personal point of view something changed on their last meeting in both of them. Ennis realized that his fishing trips were not enough for Jack and after knowing that he was with other men that may have hit him really hard. Besides we know after that that his relationship with Cassie went to a cliff after that. he was changing and going to a new path (I think) this time he was the one offering the time. We know for sure that it was always Jack the one sending the post cards and Ennis was the one that either declined them or accept them, however, this time was Ennis this was a big change this was saying "Hey Jack I'm here, please tell me if you want to continue" probably as many of you think after that trip something would have changed to either better or worst. I'm possitive that it may have being for better since we know that Ennis was changing, now note i say changing not that he realized he loved Jack, to me he realized he loved him when he went to his parents house.

Mélanos · « **Reply #16 on:** Jul 04, 2006, 02:58 PM »

I don't think Jack expected anything about Randall, when Randall talk him of the little cabin he does not seem happy or excited, he is sad, melancolic! Since the misunderstanding after the divorce Jack was wounded and never could recover, we never see him happy after, never a smile. Ennis and Jack were in love, deeply in love, but more than that they were life for each other, and Ennis could not bear that. Before their meeting, on Brokeback, they were both nearly dead, they came back to life in fiding that love... After that they were not able to live with or without the other...
Maybe Ennis was realy in love with Cassie, she made him dance! After the last fight, along the lake, Ennis is broken, he is lost for everybody but melancoly. And Jack! what I think it is that the thing he cant bear it is not being able to help his friend, to make him happy. It is not only a question to declare love, they are both unable, they are crippled! Jack was happy as long he thought he made Ennis happy, just look his smile when they they meet at mud lake, just before the ballad in the rain forest! Jack is a worn out man, his last try with Ennis is hopeless. I think he chose to die, he tought he could do in dying what he could not in living. That is how I understand the memory of the happy time in Brokeback, Jack is sure of his love and he is sure of Ennis: he prefer let him go, be free, "see you in the morning!..." Jack was not murdered, he was not stupid, he gave his life and that is what Ennis understand in the closet. When Ennis wisper "I love you" it is not only him, he just came to understand what Jack did for him. Randall is a nothing, Jack talked of him only to get the suspicion out of Ennis... I think the trailer is completly out of the way, love is NOT of force of nature, love between Jack and Ennis was built day after day, love is a bond and there is no greater love than give your life fore someone you love :\'( :\'(

Valandil Eluch · « **Reply #17 on:** Jul 04, 2006, 03:16 PM »

Quote from: Mélanos on Jul 04, 2006, 02:58 PM

I don't think Jack expected anything about Randall, when Randall talk him of the little cabin he does not seem happy or excited, he is sad, melancolic! Since the misunderstanding after the divorce Jack was wounded and never could recover, we never see him happy after, never a smile. Ennis and Jack were in love, deeply in love, but more than that they were life for each other, and Ennis could not bear that. Before their meeting, on Brokeback, they were both nearly dead, they came back to life in fiding that love... After that they were not able to live with or without the other...
Maybe Ennis was realy in love with Cassie, she made him dance! After the last fight, along the lake, Ennis is broken, he is lost for everybody but melancoly. And Jack! what I think it is that the thing he cant bear it is not being able to help his friend, to make him happy. It is not only a question to declare love, they are both unable, they are crippled! Jack was happy as long he thought he made Ennis happy, just look his smile when they they meet at mud lake, just before the ballad in the rain forest! Jack is a worn out man, his last try with Ennis is hopeless. I think he chose to die, he tought he could do in dying what he could not in living. That is how I understand the memory of the happy time in Brokeback, Jack is sure of his love and he is sure of Ennis: he prefer let him go, be free, "see you in the morning!..." Jack was not murdered, he was not stupid, he gave his life and that is what Ennis understand in the closet. When Ennis wisper "I love you" it is not only him, he just came to understand what Jack did for him. Randall is a nothing, Jack talked of him only to get the suspicion out of Ennis... I think the trailer is completly out of the way, love is NOT of force of nature, love between Jack and Ennis was built day after day, love is a bond and there is no greater love than give your life fore someone you love :\'( :\'(

Mélanos I have to disagree with you with Cassie Ennis didn't loved her at all you can't love two persons at the same time and He wasn't the type either Ennis was actually trying to have the life people wanted him to have not his real life remember Cassie came years after his dinner with Alma where he realized Alma knew about Jack and him.

About Jack choosing to Die well to be honest I don't think that Jack fitted that profile either, I do agree that he let him go as it was on his memory but remember that book states "Nothing fixed, nothing ended" so we know that Jack was able to give his life for ennis but i don't think that he was going to make him kill not in that way at least that would make Ennis suffered and i don't think he wanted that.

Mélanos · « **Reply #18 on:** Jul 04, 2006, 04:36 PM »

Quote from: Carlos_H82 on Jul 04, 2006, 03:16 PM

Quote from: Mélanos on Jul 04, 2006, 02:58 PM
Mélanos I have to disagree with you with Cassie Ennis didn't loved her at all you can't love two persons at the same time and He wasn't the type either Ennis was actually trying to have the life people wanted him to have not his real life remember Cassie came years after his dinner with Alma where he realized Alma knew about Jack and him.

About Jack choosing to Die well to be honest I don't think that Jack fitted that profile either, I do agree that he let him go as it was on his memory but remember that book states "Nothing fixed, nothing ended" so we know that Jack was able to give his life for ennis but i don't think that he was going to make him kill not in that way at least that would make Ennis suffered and i don't think he wanted that.
I completly agree with you... most of the time! I just remember what Bumbaluna said in the weekly letter, Cassie was, maybe, something like Jack in a woman, I think he is not playing with her, but he does not know where he goes... there is no opposition in his mind between Jack and Cassie, all the contrary and he is proud to talk about her with Jack. Ennis does not want to choose and underestimate the deepness of the bond between him and Jack.
And Jack, I understand what you say and that is the most difficult point of the film. First of all Jack of the film is not Jack of the SS, and Ennis no more, Jack is even not Jack of the screenplay! Ang Lee and Jake made made a much more complex character and the endings are differents: in the SS the end is pure despair, Ennis is taken between grief and madness (that is quite a frequent end in "Close Range"), in the film there is some hope. I believe we are not compelled to have a realistic reading: nothing is shown directly of the death of Jack... in the legends death represent the passage from childhood to adulthood. Jack did not want his friend to suffer, but he ha to... like a doctor do, sometimes, to heal, to let him be a man?

browneyes · « **Reply #19 on:** Jul 04, 2006, 04:40 PM »

Thanks Carlos for saying that I made an interesting point! I do believe Ennis would've came around eventually. I mean they were both approaching middle-age. That's usually when everyone takes a good, hard look at their life. I think Ennis used Cassie as a cover-up and Jack used Randall to feel that sexual and lonely void (even if it didn't help Jack overcome him loneliness and longing for Ennis). There is no doubt Jack would've met up with Ennis either to continue the relationship as it is or give Ennis an ultimatum. These 2 people were in love from 1963 to 1983 (the screenplay is so messed up when it comes to the dates!), I don't think Jack would've replied to Ennis' postcard by "I found someone who wants a life with me". Jack wouldn't do that and if he did Ennis would drive to wherever Jack was and fight for him!

CherryCake · « **Reply #20 on:** Jul 05, 2006, 12:10 AM »

Quote from: browneyes on Jul 04, 2006, 04:40 PM

Thanks Carlos for saying that I made an interesting point! I do believe Ennis would've came around eventually. I mean they were both approaching middle-age. That's usually when everyone takes a good, hard look at their life. I think Ennis used Cassie as a cover-up and Jack used Randall to feel that sexual and lonely void (even if it didn't help Jack overcome him loneliness and longing for Ennis). There is no doubt Jack would've met up with Ennis either to continue the relationship as it is or give Ennis an ultimatum. These 2 people were in love from 1963 to 1983 (the screenplay is so messed up when it comes to the dates!), I don't think Jack would've replied to Ennis' postcard by "I found someone who wants a life with me". Jack wouldn't do that and if he did Ennis would drive to wherever Jack was and fight for him!

Yes, browneyes, I agree with you. and I enjoyed you 'what ifs..' from the other posts. It was Ennis who was changing for Jack. And I think he would have come around to be with Jack. But as Jack prophetized, 'never enough time, never enough.' I think that last fight... especially Jack's "I did once...' line really got to Ennis. I can see where Ennis would somehow feel guilty and somewhat responsible, though unjustified, for Jack's death. Sorry for being OT.

tpe · « **Reply #21 on:** Jul 05, 2006, 07:10 AM »

Thanks everyone for the great thoughts. I find the proposed comparison quite interesting and very intriguing.

Not exactly sure how I feel. If you are a believer in the theory (implied by the screenplay dates) that there was about a full year between their last meeting and thr proposed meeting in November, then it would be hard to think that Ennis would have waited that long to make his move in accepting Jack's way of looking at things. Then again, it does not totally discount the possibility of Ennis setting the stage for this turnaround in the November meeting that never happened.

Did Ennis have sex with Cassie? This is a detail that I am not sure of, but it is plausible. The white wine shared between father and daughter was supposedly something left behind during the Cassie period. (Considering that he broke up with Cassie in 81/82 and the last scene was in 84, that bottle of white wine must have already turned into vinegar -- but I digress...) This suggests that he did invite Cassie over to his old place (not the trailer) during the time they were seeing each other. Hard to think that if just stuck to drinking white wine during those visits, so I would think that they indeed had sex. THis strengthens the comparison with Jack and Randall, as I have always assumed that these two did have an affair right before jack died.

Just a few thoughts about this subject...

browneyes · « **Reply #22 on:** Jul 05, 2006, 07:18 AM »

Well, I think the screenplay is wrong with a couple of the dates. I believe it was '83 the last time Ennis and Jack met up. I think it makes more sense. When Jack asks Ennis "what the hell ever happened to August?" I think its a safe bet that it was May of '83. And Jack died sometime during the spring or summer. Ennis probably knew about the death around October, when he got the postcard back. The whole thing with Ennis and Cassie, Jack and Randall really confuses me. Sometimes I get so upset that Jack was cheating on Ennis with another man for 5 years (I believe)! But Ennis was with Cassie for 5 years too and since Ennis was still in denial, he could've fallen in love with Cassie. Jack could've fallen for Randall. But they couldn't because they still wanted each other.

tpe · « **Reply #23 on:** Jul 05, 2006, 07:27 AM »

Quote from: browneyes on Jul 05, 2006, 07:18 AM

Well, I think the screenplay is wrong with a couple of the dates. I believe it was '83 the last time Ennis and Jack met up. I think it makes more sense. When Jack asks Ennis "what the hell ever happened to August?" I think its a safe bet that it was May of '83. And Jack died sometime during the spring or summer. Ennis probably knew about the death around October, when he got the postcard back. The whole thing with Ennis and Cassie, Jack and Randall really confuses me. Sometimes I get so upset that Jack was cheating on Ennis with another man for 5 years (I believe)! But Ennis was with Cassie for 5 years too and since Ennis was still in denial, he could've fallen in love with Cassie. Jack could've fallen for Randall. But they couldn't because they still wanted each other.

This I think matches the short story timeline (than the screenplay timeline). I do think that the timeline set in the screenplay was quite deliberate, although I don't really know the reason behind it -- other than it gave Jack a greater reason to be upset about Ennis in the last meeting, plus it gives Jack time to set his plans with Randall in motion.

And as I did mention in the above post, even a wait of a full year would not have discounted the possibility of Ennis turning around. There is a certain deliberateness in Ennis that would make the scenario plausible.

It is an intriguing possibility. In my more pessimistic moods, I feel that maybe Ennis did not consider it. But I certainly cannot discount it outright.

Mélanos · « **Reply #24 on:** Jul 05, 2006, 07:30 AM »

Chronology in the film (and the screeplay) is completly a mess! For instance look at the pregnancy of Alma, she is waiting for the baby in Thanksgiving 1977 and in 1979 Junior talk about the newborn! As for the sexuality of Jack, did he had sex in Mexico? and with Randall? all we see is one travel in Mexico (it is not a happy one!) et all we know is what Jack say: "somethin' I don't hardly never get". I think we can believe him, Jack does not say all the truth but he never lie to Ennis.

tpe · « **Reply #25 on:** Jul 05, 2006, 07:32 AM »

A bit OOT here. but for those interested in a comparison between screenplay and short story timelines, you can refer to a table posted in the old thread on the Timeline of the Last Scenes.

It is an interesting tabulation...

tpe · « **Reply #26 on:** Jul 05, 2006, 07:35 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Jul 05, 2006, 07:32 AM

A bit OOT here. but for those interested in a comparison between screenplay and short story timelines, you can refer to a table posted in the old thread on the Timeline of the Last Scenes.

It is an interesting tabulation...

I do find this invaluable: http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=1c5fadc32732df0871aabc6ddb07229c&topic=968.msg10477#msg10477

browneyes · « **Reply #27 on:** Jul 05, 2006, 07:46 AM »

Thank you for that. But when Jack said "needin' somethin' I don't hardly never get", it does give me doubts. But then he said "I can't make on a couple of high-altitude f**ks once or twice a year!". That tells me he tried to stay faithful but when the urges got to bad he went to see Randall. That tells me he rarely saw Randall. So even thought he knew Randall for 5 years, he rarely had sex with him. Remember, Randall had his own life too. So they were more than likely just f**k buddies. When Jack told his father about "another fella", I think he was speaking out of anger and frustration.

tpe · « **Reply #28 on:** Jul 05, 2006, 07:52 AM »

Quote from: browneyes on Jul 05, 2006, 07:46 AM

Thank you for that. But when Jack said "needin' somethin' I don't hardly never get", it does give me doubts. But then he said "I can't make on a couple of high-altitude f**ks once or twice a year!". That tells me he tried to stay faithful but when the urges got to bad he went to see Randall. That tells me he rarely saw Randall. So even thought he knew Randall for 5 years, he rarely had sex with him. Remember, Randall had his own life too. So they were more than likely just f**k buddies. When Jack told his father about "another fella", I think he was speaking out of anger and frustration.

Yes, I did also feel that Jack tried to be faithful to Ennis, in spite of meanigless lapses (such as the one in Mexico). I do think that he porbably had a fling with Randall before the last meeting, but yes, I do think if this did ever occured, it was not really a serious thing. In fact, I thought his veiled reference to it in the last meeting was sort of a cry for help. That was why I think he started his beautiful confession of love with these words: "Truth is..."

Twisted · « **Reply #29 on:** Jul 05, 2006, 07:58 AM »

"..Sometimes i miss you so much i can hardly stand it.. :\'( :\'(