Author Topic: This makes a lot of sense. Maybe Ennis was about to come around. (Read 29183 times)

tpe · « **Reply #30 on:** Jul 05, 2006, 08:00 AM »

Quote from: Twisted on Jul 05, 2006, 07:58 AM

"..Sometimes i miss you so much i can hardly stand it.. :\'( :\'(

:\'(

browneyes · « **Reply #31 on:** Jul 05, 2006, 08:12 AM »

Yeah, I know. Thats why if he knew Ennis wanted to meet up in November he would be there. That's why I think Jack knew he couldn't really have a life with Randall because he wouldn't be happy. So do most of you think that it is possible to have like a 5-year affair with someone and it not be a serious thing?

NoReins · « **Reply #32 on:** Jul 05, 2006, 08:34 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Jul 05, 2006, 07:52 AM

Quote from: browneyes on Jul 05, 2006, 07:46 AM
Thank you for that. But when Jack said "needin' somethin' I don't hardly never get", it does give me doubts. But then he said "I can't make on a couple of high-altitude f**ks once or twice a year!". That tells me he tried to stay faithful but when the urges got to bad he went to see Randall. That tells me he rarely saw Randall. So even thought he knew Randall for 5 years, he rarely had sex with him. Remember, Randall had his own life too. So they were more than likely just f**k buddies. When Jack told his father about "another fella", I think he was speaking out of anger and frustration.

Yes, I did also feel that Jack tried to be faithful to Ennis, in spite of meanigless lapses (such as the one in Mexico). I do think that he porbably had a fling with Randall before the last meeting, but yes, I do think if this did ever occured, it was not really a serious thing. In fact, I thought his veiled reference to it in the last meeting was sort of a cry for help. That was why I think he started his beautiful confession of love with these words: "Truth is..."

That's it in a nutshell. Whatever lies he may have told Ennis both in the past and at that time, the truth was that he missed Ennis and didn't ever want to be apart from him. It's echoed in his speech the next day too - he may have wished he knew how to quit Ennis but the truth was, he didn't.

browneyes · « **Reply #33 on:** Jul 05, 2006, 08:45 AM »

Good point. Do u guys know that supposedly that when Jack said "sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it", Ennis was supposedly going to say "I know the feeling". I think that should have been in the film.

NoReins · « **Reply #34 on:** Jul 05, 2006, 09:30 AM »

Quote from: browneyes on Jul 05, 2006, 08:45 AM

Good point. Do u guys know that supposedly that when Jack said "sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it", Ennis was supposedly going to say "I know the feeling". I think that should have been in the film.

I'd never heard that but I do wish Ennis had said something in response to Jack's declaration of love. I know he does respond physically by holding Jack as they sleep, but it would have been nice if - just once - he'd been able to give Jack something more to go on.

tpe · « **Reply #35 on:** Jul 05, 2006, 09:36 AM »

Quote from: NoReins on Jul 05, 2006, 08:34 AM

That's it in a nutshell. Whatever lies he may have told Ennis both in the past and at that time, the truth was that he missed Ennis and didn't ever want to be apart from him. It's echoed in his speech the next day too - he may have wished he knew how to quit Ennis but the truth was, he didn't.

NoReins, there are no words to match this. Thank you.

A wonderful, difficult topic.

welshwitch · « **Reply #36 on:** Jul 05, 2006, 09:47 AM »

OT but the time-line is wrong or ? dubious. If Ennis marries Alma in Dec '63 and has her pregnant by January '64, then Alma Jr's 19 in '83, till October anyway, Ennis has already finished paying child support for her and is within a year of doing so for Francine/Jenny too.
When Jack arrives in June '67. he says Bobby's eight months. so he was born in Oct ' 66 and would hardly have needed a tutor to teach him to read at the time given, nor would he be driving a tractor in '72 ( even helped by Jack) unless he's unbelievably precocious.

I agree Ennis takes his time, but if the confrontation meeting is in May '83, then Jack dies in the summer ( ironically aroung the time he would have been meeting Ennis if Ennis hadn't said he couldn't make it) then Ennis sends the pc in ? October, the meeting referred to in the confrontation would be in November

AND WE HAVEN'T A CLUE WHAT ENNIS WOULD HAVE SAID AT THAT POINT. And I like it that way - ambiguity again.

tpe · « **Reply #37 on:** Jul 05, 2006, 09:54 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 05, 2006, 09:47 AM

AND WE HAVEN'T A CLUE WHAT ENNIS WOULD HAVE SAID AT THAT POINT. And I like it that way - ambiguity again.

Things never said. They are like songbirds singing in winter. They are like worms feasting on the tender heart.

welshwitch · « **Reply #38 on:** Jul 05, 2006, 10:08 AM »

Heard melodies are sweet, but those unheard
Are sweeter.

tpe · « **Reply #39 on:** Jul 05, 2006, 10:14 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 05, 2006, 10:08 AM

Heard melodies are sweet, but those unheard
Are sweeter.

The one vain longing,—through all journeyings,
The one: in every hushed and hearkening spot,—
All the soft-swarming dark where you were not,
Still longed for! Yes, for sake of dreams and wings,
And wonders, that your own must ever make
To bower you close, with all hearts’ treasurings;
And for that speech toward which all hearts do ache;—
Even for Music’s sake.

(Josephine Peabody -- 'The Nightingale Unheard')

Mélanos · « **Reply #40 on:** Jul 05, 2006, 11:27 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 05, 2006, 10:08 AM

Heard melodies are sweet, but those unheard
Are sweeter.

Thanks welshwitch, that's beautifull and I think that is exactly what Jack is hearing in his last moment of quiet memory, the unheard melody of Ennis' love for him. Ennis, certainly, was trying to come back in his last postcard but nothing could have changed. The death of Jack was the only clash strong enought to move out of his fears, of his customs... Look how he is old and worn out with Jack, along the lake, and look how he is strong and beautiful when he come to Lightning Flat, with the spirit to face the dreadfull John and to face the disclosure of his sexuality. Ennis did came back... maybe the end could have been different, it would not have been so beautifull
"Les chants les plus tristes sont souvent les plus beaux
J'en connais d'immortels qui sont de purs sanglots" (Alfred de Vigny)
(The sadest songs are often the most beautiful
I know some immortals ones that are pure sob)
That is for TPE and sorry to be OT!

tpe · « **Reply #41 on:** Jul 05, 2006, 11:49 AM »

Quote from: Mélanos on Jul 05, 2006, 11:27 AM

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 05, 2006, 10:08 AM
Heard melodies are sweet, but those unheard
Are sweeter.

Thanks welshwitch, that's beautifull and I think that is exactly what Jack is hearing in his last moment of quiet memory, the unheard melody of Ennis' love for him. Ennis, certainly, was trying to come back in his last postcard but nothing could have changed. The death of Jack was the only clash strong enought to move out of his fears, of his customs... Look how he is old and worn out with Jack, along the lake, and look how he is strong and beautiful when he come to Lightning Flat, with the spirit to face the dreadfull John and to face the disclosure of his sexuality. Ennis did came back... maybe the end could have been different, it would not have been so beautifull
"Les chants les plus tristes sont souvent les plus beaux
J'en connais d'immortels qui sont de purs sanglots" (Alfred de Vigny)
(The sadest songs are often the most beautiful
I know some immortals ones that are pure sob)
That is for TPE and sorry to be OT!

Not so OOT. Thank you Mélanos. Wonderful. :\'(

edgar · « **Reply #42 on:** Jul 05, 2006, 12:52 PM »

I have a few rather humdrum things to say on this topic, referring to things mentioned upthread.

1. I cannot imagine that the screenplay dates are correct: the last meeting was May; the references are to August and November of the same year. They would have said "next year" otherwise. As ww points out, it would not be the only timeline difficulty in the screenplay. Anyway, it just seems ridiculous to me that they would have said goodbye in May and Ennis hear nothing at all, say nothing at all until autumn of the following year. No, no, no.

2. I certainly think Cassie and Ennis had sex. I don't think Ennis lies to Jack (though Jack lies to Ennis). And Cassie is not a "nice girl" type who would stick around a reltionship a long time without sex... She just oozes sexuality, has Ennis give her a footrub right there in the bar...

3. Jack and Randall had known each other for approx five years. However, Jack may have waited some time before he began a sexual relationship with Randall. And maybe they just got together once or twice a year. And I don't think their relationship was emotionally that deep.

At the risk of sounding sexist, I think Ennis' (sort of) long-term affair with Cassie and Jack's (maybe sort of) long-term affair with Ranall show one of the differences between men and women. Women tend to make emotional commitments when they have sex; men, not so much.

for the generalization.

tpe · « **Reply #43 on:** Jul 05, 2006, 01:07 PM »

Quote from: edgar on Jul 05, 2006, 12:52 PM

I have a few rather humdrum things to say on this topic, referring to things mentioned upthread.

1. I cannot imagine that the screenplay dates are correct: the last meeting was May; the references are to August and November of the same year. They would have said "next year" otherwise. As ww points out, it would not be the only timeline difficulty in the screenplay. Anyway, it just seems ridiculous to me that they would have said goodbye in May and Ennis hear nothing at all, say nothing at all until autumn of the following year. No, no, no.

2. I certainly think Cassie and Ennis had sex. I don't think Ennis lies to Jack (though Jack lies to Ennis). And Cassie is not a "nice girl" type who would stick around a reltionship a long time without sex... She just oozes sexuality, has Ennis give her a footrub right there in the bar...

3. Jack and Randall had known each other for approx five years. However, Jack may have waited some time before he began a sexual relationship with Randall. And maybe they just got together once or twice a year. And I don't think their relationship was emotionally that deep.

At the risk of sounding sexist, I think Ennis' (sort of) long-term affair with Cassie and Jack's (maybe sort of) long-term affair with Ranall show one of the differences between men and women. Women tend to make emotional commitments when they have sex; men, not so much.

for the generalization.

Hello edgar. To be sure, I think the screenplay timeline would probably suggested Fall for their last meeting, and not spring. To wait for more than a year would have been improbable. I do think the old thread about the timeline does provide a reasonable set of deductions. It would probably work, although it may not fit comfortably with many of us.

And yes, I do assume that Ennis and Cassie had sex. It was certainly implied that such relations were accepted by both Ennis and Jack as something that did not eddanger their relationship.

Finally, I do agree that the relationship with Randall was a reluctant one. Perhaps born out of desperation...

browneyes · « **Reply #44 on:** Jul 05, 2006, 01:15 PM »

I agree with Tpe and Edgar. I think it took a while for Jack to even think about having sex with Randall. It's different than when he was in Mexico. And the way Randall came on to Jack so quickly made me think he was in it for sex too. He didn't even take the time to get to know Jack. He was just like "there's a little cabin". For all he knew Jack could've been a serial killer! I don't admire that at all. Thats why I don't think he really wanted to be with Jack 24/7. He didn't want to share a life with Jack (in my opinion).

Mélanos · « **Reply #45 on:** Jul 05, 2006, 01:28 PM »

Quote from: edgar on Jul 05, 2006, 12:52 PM

I have a few rather humdrum things to say on this topic, referring to things mentioned upthread.

I don't think Ennis lies to Jack (though Jack lies to Ennis).

I maybe a little provocative but I think that Jack NEVER lies to Ennis: he only says a part of the truth and let the other part unsaid. His questionable answers are always built in three movement. See, for instance, in the motel, after the questionof Ennis about the punch, Jack does not answer immediatly:

Swear to God I didn't know we was going to get into this again: that is the opposite of the truth, that is provocative!
Hell, Yes I did, Red lined it all the way... that is the truth.
Wat is unsaid is that Jack is afraid of Ennis after "that punch" and he will take care of what he says, he will say only what he think Ennis can hear

With Randall, it is exactly the same:

I kinda got a thing goin' with a ranch foreman's wife: that is the opposite of the truth but it what Ennis want to hear
sometimes I miss you so much... that is the truth
what is unsaid is probably not Randall which is of no importance, it is that Jack is afraid to be shot by Lureen: Jack tell the important thing within a joke and Ennis does not see it!

tpe · « **Reply #46 on:** Jul 05, 2006, 01:49 PM »

Quote from: Mélanos on Jul 05, 2006, 01:28 PM

Quote from: edgar on Jul 05, 2006, 12:52 PM
I have a few rather humdrum things to say on this topic, referring to things mentioned upthread.

I don't think Ennis lies to Jack (though Jack lies to Ennis).

I maybe a little provocative but I think that Jack NEVER lies to Ennis: he only says a part of the truth and let the other part unsaid. His questionable answers are always built in three movement. See, for instance, in the motel, after the questionof Ennis about the punch, Jack does not answer immediatly:
Swear to God I didn't know we was going to get into this again: that is the opposite of the truth, that is provocative!
Hell, Yes I did, Red lined it all the way... that is the truth.
Wat is unsaid is that Jack is afraid of Ennis after "that punch" and he will take care of what he says, he will say only what he think Ennis can hear
With Randall, it is exactly the same:
I kinda got a thing goin' with a ranch foreman's wife: that is the opposite of the truth but it what Ennis want to hear
sometimes I miss you so much... that is the truth
what is unsaid is probably not Randall which is of no importance, it is that Jack is afraid to be shot by Lureen: Jack tell the important thing within a joke and Ennis does not see it!

I think I know what you mean here. Technically, people can argue that he was lying. But you are right to point out that there is truth hidden just underneath the surface obfuscation.

edgar · « **Reply #47 on:** Jul 05, 2006, 01:54 PM »

Sorry, Melanos (and sorry I can't do the accent in your name), but Jack lies quite a bit.

He's still a vibrant, amazing person with lots of great qualities, but he lies. Besides the examples you list above, he also says to Ennis: "I ain't (queer) either." [Ennis didn't know what he was saying; Jack did.]

If you want to go into the short story, in the motel Ennis says somehting like, "You ever think of doing it with another man?" and Jack, who had been riding more than bulls, said, "Hell no."

To paraphrase the sagacious *tpe*, we love them with their faults. And not just in spite of their faults, but because of their faults.

Mélanos · « **Reply #48 on:** Jul 05, 2006, 02:22 PM »

Quote from: edgar on Jul 05, 2006, 01:54 PM

Sorry, Melanos (and sorry I can't do the accent in your name), but Jack lies quite a bit.

He's still a vibrant, amazing person with lots of great qualities, but he lies. Besides the examples you list above, he also says to Ennis: "I ain't (queer) either." [Ennis didn't know what he was saying; Jack did.]

If you want to go into the short story, in the motel Ennis says somehting like, "You ever think of doing it with another man?" and Jack, who had been riding more than bulls, said, "Hell no."

To paraphrase the sagacious *tpe*, we love them with their faults. And not just in spite of their faults, but because of their faults.

Thanks edgar... but I don't agree with you!
Jack is a vibrant, amazing person, OK, but, above all, he is a very sensitive one and he always try to tell the truth of the desire, of the deep part of himself, he is never cheating. Jack talk, so he takes risk; Ennis, most of the time, does not say anything of himself, of his desire: that is easier. In the SS we see a very different Jack... a lier, always cheating and rather ugly: nothing to do with our Jack.
Ang Lee and Jake Gyllenhaal made a very rich and complex character (worth an Oscar, is not it?), Ang Lee always insist on this "they are innocents" i.e. they are children. You can't lie when you don't know the truth. On Brokeback Jack does not know his sexuality, so he does not lie, and Ennis no more! What Ennis says, it means "there will be no bond between us" and Jack agree, that is not a lie, that is a mistake.

edgar · « **Reply #49 on:** Jul 05, 2006, 03:16 PM »

Okay, Melanos, we will agree to disagree...

We have profoundly different views of the film. I do not see Jack as an innocent.

Maybe when I was younger, I would have see him that way....

welshwitch · « **Reply #50 on:** Jul 05, 2006, 03:24 PM »

Don't agree - think Jack's much more worldly-wise/savvy than Ennis, and quite capable of lying if it suits him. "Who'd been riding more than bulls" gives that way.

As far as Edgar's "sexist" comment is concerned, I agree. Women pick up the slightest thing, tranlate it into a sign of commitment, let their emotions become engaged and start picking out a wedding dress and writing a list of guests. Men can ( don't always but can) simple screw; not without affection or liking perhaps, but without deep emotional commitment and certainly without any intention of making or implying anything long-term/permanent.

Which is why women complain that men are bastards and men complain that they can't understand women - "What did I say? What did I do? "

Mélanos · « **Reply #51 on:** Jul 06, 2006, 12:09 PM »

Thank you for your opinions and also for some beautiful words I didn't knew: obfuscation, thanks TPE, that is such a dark thing! and welshwitch thanks for savvy, that is savory! Welchwitch, that is a little gift for you, from Annie Proulx, a portrait of Jack:

"At first glance Jack seemed fair enough with his curly hair and quick laugh, but for a small man he carried some weight in the haunch and his smile disclosed buckteeth, non pronounced enough to let him eat popcorn out of the neck of a jug, but noticeable."

Nice enough, is not it? but nothing to do with Jake/Jack!

And no I'm not OK with you Edgar and Welshwitch, men are not always like that! It is true that many men look only for sex but there is no love without bond... is not that the message of BBM? and they are men!

tpe · « **Reply #52 on:** Jul 06, 2006, 12:52 PM »

I think there is good exchange of ideas here. It is certainly food for thought. I find myself reassessing my view of Jack, in the light of the above opinions. It makes you think.

Thanks everyone.

welshwitch · « **Reply #53 on:** Jul 06, 2006, 01:51 PM »

Thank you, Melanos. Don't take any notice of me, I'm old and cynical. I wasn't implying that all men were the same, but I think many of them can dissociate sex from love, while rather fewer women can.

Obfuscation means covering things up, deliberately hiding things you don;t want others to see. The sort of thing governemnts do with information that does them no good so they try to hide it in a lot of words/ statistics/ jargon.

Mélanos · « **Reply #54 on:** Jul 06, 2006, 02:05 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 06, 2006, 01:51 PM

Thank you, Melanos. Don't take any notice of me, I'm old and cynical. I wasn't implying that all men were the same, but I think many of them can dissociate sex from love, while rather fewer women can.

Obfuscation means covering things up, deliberately hiding things you don;t want others to see. The sort of thing governemnts do with information that does them no good so they try to hide it in a lot of words/ statistics/ jargon.

O Welshwich, not so old and never so cynical... maybe you are a little too young, most of the men are cheating with their feeling, they try to ignore or they pretend not to care. In question of love, basicaly, they are cowards! Maybe, on the opposite, women are not carefull enought, they are dreamy, sometimes a little lost between dream and reality... Men are parlysed by fear and women blinded by the intensity of their feelings!

welshwitch · « **Reply #55 on:** Jul 07, 2006, 03:55 PM »

Somewhere between recklessness and cowardice, then, it may be possible to find some equilibrium. If Ennis had retreated a little less determinedly and Jack had been a little less impetuous, by not leaving immediately after the divorce scene perhaps, then who knows?

Mélanos · « **Reply #56 on:** Jul 07, 2006, 04:09 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 07, 2006, 03:55 PM

Somewhere between recklessness and cowardice, then, it may be possible to find some equilibrium. If Ennis had retreated a little less determinedly and Jack had been a little less impetuous, by not leaving immediately after the divorce scene perhaps, then who knows?

They were crippled, little witch, half broken... Ennis is becoming more and more parano and Jack, of course he was quick, he saw his friend in pain, he thought he could be the cure and realise he was the cause... everything breaking down! They were children, the could not stand... Something hard is frome times to times necessary to grow up and become adult, and stand. Something that has to do with death.

welshwitch · « **Reply #57 on:** Jul 08, 2006, 07:20 AM »

Love and death, eternally linked and circling each other.

gimmejack · « **Reply #58 on:** Jul 10, 2006, 07:15 AM »

I choose to believe that Ennis was coming around. Perhaps not too openly "out" but his actions where leading in that direction...very slowly!
By keeping his daughter at arms length, just in case... by the break up w/ Cassie, the make up letter about November..."for you, november". Most importantly, the make up letter was sent after he pretty much cut it off...saying he cant stand it no more. Ennis is not the type to go back on his word. Then to write Jack back saying, okay...I can stand it, lets meet up again...November... I dont want you goin back to Mexico Jack...I want to be the one to give you what you need. He was giving in, then...CRASH :\'(

Mélanos · « **Reply #59 on:** Jul 10, 2006, 07:33 AM »

Quote from: gimmejack on Jul 10, 2006, 07:15 AM

I choose to believe that Ennis was coming around. Perhaps not too openly "out" but his actions where leading in that direction...very slowly!
By keeping his daughter at arms length, just in case... by the break up w/ Cassie, the make up letter about November..."for you, november". Most importantly, the make up letter was sent after he pretty much cut it off...saying he cant stand it no more. Ennis is not the type to go back on his word. Then to write Jack back saying, okay...I can stand it, lets meet up again...November... I dont want you goin back to Mexico Jack...I want to be the one to give you what you need. He was giving in, then...CRASH :\'(

completly OK, sure he was! he could not have done otherway... he never had a word of breaking down with Jack, just that he could not stand it anymore... he was so worn out by his inner struggle... but he was driven to him, and nothing would have changed, or so few... Jack chose the only way to get out of this circle of misunderstanding: I think Ennis is going to follow: "see you in the morning... I swear you Jack!" Do you see sometimes in the sky Castor and Pollux? They were two young lovers of mythology, they are now together every night "anything interesting up there in heaven?"