Author Topic: Jack + Ennis: Was it happenstance or subconscious planning?  (Read 7570 times)

Offline dalemidex

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Watching the lead up to the fateful night in that tent, I really wonder how much of it was "something that just happened" or, rather, was something that each of them was kind of subconsciously working up to.

Today I saw in the leadup things which reminded me very much of my own first time.

In the Water Walking Jesus scene, Ennis lets the cat out of the bag with his "you may be a sinner but I ain't yet had the opportunity" comment. 

The comment itself might have been a bit embarrassing for Ennis to divulge, although back in the rural early 60's being a virgin at 19 wasn't a big stigma.  Ennis is more embarrassed than that would warrant...see how he looks away uncomfortably.  That's because he meant something by it, and he realizes Jack picked up on it.

I think this shows that this sort of thing was on Ennis' mind and he was dropping hints, or thinking of dropping hints.  (I did the same thing with my best friend at the age of 19, and one fateful night he finally picked up on my hint a la Jack.)

That scene leads into the dying campfire, probaby the same campfire.  They both drank a lot, but this night Ennis drank so much as to not be able to go back to the sheep.  (Very similar to my own experience...that night I got too drunk to drive home and stayed over at is parents house.)

Then Ennis stays and Jack says he's better off in the tent.  Ennis stays at the fire.  Why didn't they just both go right to to tent?

(a)  What if I misread his signals? Maybe it's all in my head.  It can't really be.  Can it?
(b)  I shouldn't do this. It's bad, it's wrong. 
(c)  But I really want to do this.  But what if he freaks out?  Or doesn't want it?
(d)  F*ck it.  I'll just sleep out here.  Dammit all.

(I'm not sure if I'm writing about Wyoming 1963 or Wisconsin 1986)


Finally, as the night wears on, Jack (the experienced one, I'd guess) lies awake, finally  thinking "screw it, I'm gonna make a move" and the wheels are in motion.

(Change the name from Jack to Mark and this part of the story fits too, only I was out sleeping on the floor of the rec room, not out by a campfire.)


Seeing the way these events flow so similar to mine 20 years ago leads me to think:

(1)  Ennis wasn't launched unexpectedly into the physical aspect of Jack, where his deep and hidden longings were instantly unleashed much to his own surprise.   No, i think Ennis was thinking about it, wondering about it.  Maybe even dropping a hint or two.  Perhaps not with his full awareness and self-admittance.  Maybe he couldn't even name what it was he really was feeling, but I think it was there and not so far from the surface.

(2)  I suspect that Ennis' comment about being virginal, and his reaction after uttering the words, really flipped the light on for Jack.  I do think he had feelings for Ennis all along, but I wonder if perhaps Jack didn't have quite the same level of secret shameful longing and ache the way Ennis did.  In part I think that can be attributed to Jack having already leaped that hurdle with another man before.  Ennis' longing included the confusion, the worry, the anxiety of wondering if it was possible that ANY man could ever reciprocate his feelings.  Jack on the other hand probably had real feelings for Ennis already, but it wasn't tied in with the "can any man love me" feelings.  And if Jack didn't pick up on any signals before then, he might have wondered if he simply had a crush on an exclusively heterosexual man.

(3)  When the light finally went on for Jack, and Ennis knew on some level he let the cat out of the bag, they semi-subconsciously both set things up for First Night In Tent to happen.

The more I think about this scene, the more the phrase "there are no accidents" comes to mind.

Offline dalemidex

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Re: Jack + Ennis: Was it happenstance or subconscious planning?
« Reply #1 on: Jul 11, 2006, 06:56 PM »
To clarify something (and yes, it's bad form to reply to one's own post) let me state that I don't think it matters greatly if this was the first and only time Ennis had feelings for a man, or if he had these feelings before for others.  Even if you're in the camp that Ennis was a straight man who happened to fall in love with another man, i think Ennis could have still Had these same feelings and through processes regarding Jack.

Offline tpe

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Re: Jack + Ennis: Was it happenstance or subconscious planning?
« Reply #2 on: Jul 12, 2006, 07:51 AM »
dalemidex, I do feel the same way, and I share your deductions.  Thank you for articulating them extremely well.

I also know of a number of older friends who went through what we may call a paralllel experience to your and that portrayed in the movie.   True: in most instances, there are no real accidents, only opportunities and justifications.


Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Jack + Ennis: Was it happenstance or subconscious planning?
« Reply #3 on: Jul 12, 2006, 04:07 PM »
Ater supper Ennis sholud've been thinking about going back to the sheep. But Jack was so charming,and I believe Ennis was hoping that something would transpire between them. Subconciously? maybe, but in this scene Ennis comes as close as he's ever done sofarto letting Jack know that he's attracted to him. Jack picks up on it quickly.
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Offline lamusica

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Re: Jack + Ennis: Was it happenstance or subconscious planning?
« Reply #4 on: Jul 13, 2006, 06:33 PM »
I know I'm going out on a limb here, but I do think there's an element of surprise in this scene.  Remember, they're both so drunk they can barely walk.  All defenses are down at this point.  Still, Ennis doesn't opt to share the tent with Jack because two guys sleeping so close together seems weird to him.  I don't think Ennis realized he was attracted to Jack, but I think he saw Jack as someone who had become important to him as a friend sharing experiences on the mountain.  Jack, on the other hand, had designs in his head.  He knew what possibilities there were in their situation and decided to act upon them.  I love reading everyone's opinion, but I'm still not convinced that Ennis knew on any conscious level that Jack was becoming something more to him that a co-worker/friend.   (Just my opinion.)
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Offline ms.bluesky

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Re: Jack + Ennis: Was it happenstance or subconscious planning?
« Reply #5 on: Jul 15, 2006, 03:40 PM »
that was beautiful
:..i miss you so much i cant hardly stand it...:

Offline dalemidex

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Re: Jack + Ennis: Was it happenstance or subconscious planning?
« Reply #6 on: Jul 16, 2006, 09:30 PM »
I know I'm going out on a limb here, but I do think there's an element of surprise in this scene.  Remember, they're both so drunk they can barely walk.  All defenses are down at this point.  Still, Ennis doesn't opt to share the tent with Jack because two guys sleeping so close together seems weird to him.  I don't think Ennis realized he was attracted to Jack, but I think he saw Jack as someone who had become important to him as a friend sharing experiences on the mountain.  Jack, on the other hand, had designs in his head.  He knew what possibilities there were in their situation and decided to act upon them.  I love reading everyone's opinion, but I'm still not convinced that Ennis knew on any conscious level that Jack was becoming something more to him that a co-worker/friend.   (Just my opinion.)

No need to be the least bit apologetic for your opinion! I would have agreed more with you a few months ago, but my thoughts on it have evolved since then.   A lot of it comes from the water walking Jesus scene, but as my viewpoint has adjusted it has made the first night in tent seem see more plausible to me. 

In a quick and dirty way, without taking the time to go into why I feel this way, here's how I see this overall topic:

(1)  Jack definitely had thoughts/feelings for me prior to Ennis, likely even some experience.

(2)  Jack sizes up Ennis and checks him out with interest in their first meeting or two.  Finds him interesting but doesn't think Ennsi is interested

(3)  Ennis, in contrasts, only sizes up Jack in terms of "who is this guy".

(4)  Over time Jack grows to like Ennis a lot and becomes increasingly fond of him, but doesn't think of Ennis as a potential mate.

(5)  Over this same time Ennis grows to like Jack, but something more than just "like" is stirring in him.  Maybe something Ennis has never felt for someone before.  Ennis falls in love with Jack, and at this point Jack only things of Ennis as a friend.  Probably one he has a crush on, but just a friend.

(6)  Jack recognizes in the Water Walking Jesus scene that his friend has more than friendship feelings for him.  Ennis realizes he may have let too much slip and Jack may have picked up on it.

(7)  Jack and Ennis, probably with some awareness and some awareness repressed, get drunker than normal, spend the night in camp togethe as they rarely if ever did before, and ultimately get together.


To me, the love story makes better sense and flows more realistically when I see it this way.

Offline tpe

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Re: Jack + Ennis: Was it happenstance or subconscious planning?
« Reply #7 on: Jul 17, 2006, 07:14 AM »
No need to be the least bit apologetic for your opinion! I would have agreed more with you a few months ago, but my thoughts on it have evolved since then.   A lot of it comes from the water walking Jesus scene, but as my viewpoint has adjusted it has made the first night in tent seem see more plausible to me. 

In a quick and dirty way, without taking the time to go into why I feel this way, here's how I see this overall topic:

(1)  Jack definitely had thoughts/feelings for me prior to Ennis, likely even some experience.

(2)  Jack sizes up Ennis and checks him out with interest in their first meeting or two.  Finds him interesting but doesn't think Ennsi is interested

(3)  Ennis, in contrasts, only sizes up Jack in terms of "who is this guy".

(4)  Over time Jack grows to like Ennis a lot and becomes increasingly fond of him, but doesn't think of Ennis as a potential mate.

(5)  Over this same time Ennis grows to like Jack, but something more than just "like" is stirring in him.  Maybe something Ennis has never felt for someone before.  Ennis falls in love with Jack, and at this point Jack only things of Ennis as a friend.  Probably one he has a crush on, but just a friend.

(6)  Jack recognizes in the Water Walking Jesus scene that his friend has more than friendship feelings for him.  Ennis realizes he may have let too much slip and Jack may have picked up on it.

(7)  Jack and Ennis, probably with some awareness and some awareness repressed, get drunker than normal, spend the night in camp togethe as they rarely if ever did before, and ultimately get together.


To me, the love story makes better sense and flows more realistically when I see it this way.


Very interesting take on how their feelings evolved over time.  I must say that I dind this attractive.  I had never thought about (5) the way you outline it here.  It now looks very plausible to me.


Offline dalemidex

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Re: Jack + Ennis: Was it happenstance or subconscious planning?
« Reply #8 on: Jul 17, 2006, 08:52 AM »

(1)  Jack definitely had thoughts/feelings for me prior to Ennis, likely even some experience.

R O T F L M A O!  I meant to say "Jack definitely had thoughts/feelings for men prior to Ennis".    Not feelings for me.  Quite the typo, huh?  There are no accidents!



No need to be the least bit apologetic for your opinion! I would have agreed more with you a few months ago, but my thoughts on it have evolved since then.   A lot of it comes from the water walking Jesus scene, but as my viewpoint has adjusted it has made the first night in tent seem see more plausible to me. 

In a quick and dirty way, without taking the time to go into why I feel this way, here's how I see this overall topic:

(1)  Jack definitely had thoughts/feelings for men prior to Ennis, likely even some experience.

(2)  Jack sizes up Ennis and checks him out with interest in their first meeting or two.  Finds him interesting but doesn't think Ennis is interested

(3)  Ennis, in contrasts, only sizes up Jack in terms of "who is this guy".

(4)  Over time Jack grows to like Ennis a lot and becomes increasingly fond of him, but doesn't think of Ennis as a potential mate.

(5)  Over this same time Ennis grows to like Jack, but something more than just "like" is stirring in him.  Maybe something Ennis has never felt for someone before.  Ennis falls in love with Jack, and at this point Jack only things of Ennis as a friend.  Probably one he has a crush on, but just a friend.

(6)  Jack recognizes in the Water Walking Jesus scene that his friend has more than friendship feelings for him.  Ennis realizes he may have let too much slip and Jack may have picked up on it.

(7)  Jack and Ennis, probably with some awareness and some awareness repressed, get drunker than normal, spend the night in camp togethe as they rarely if ever did before, and ultimately get together.


To me, the love story makes better sense and flows more realistically when I see it this way.


Very interesting take on how their feelings evolved over time.  I must say that I dind this attractive.  I had never thought about (5) the way you outline it here.  It now looks very plausible to me.


Another thing that I see as more plausible with this line of thinking is how Ennis knew what to do that first night with virtually no guidance or hesitation.  Back when I used to think that Ennis was mostly unaware of this real feelings for Jack until it all came bursting out in that tent, it sort of seemed a little too quick, automatic and even reheae**d in there.  But if he had thought about it, especially in the somewhat intrusive way that things can hang on your mind when you're trying to NOT think about them, the smoothness of FNIT becomes much more believable to me. 

I used to think that first night in tent was a bit of a stretch, but that it could have happened, that it HAD to happen that way or it wouldn't have happened at all.  And heck, I can cut the movie some slack.    But the more I think about it this way, the more I don't need to cut it slack.  It makes perfect sense.  The short story says (paraphrase) that it was nothing Ennis had done before, but no instruction needed.  If by this time Ennis started to get a better grip on his feelings, urges and desires, it probably wasn't a new, out of the blue concept that FNIT.
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Offline tpe

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Re: Jack + Ennis: Was it happenstance or subconscious planning?
« Reply #9 on: Jul 17, 2006, 09:58 AM »
Thanks dalemidex.  I too have gone through a similar evolution of feelings about the FNIT.  There was a naturalness to it all that takes you aback on first viewing. 

When things like these happen in real life, then have the feel of the improbable, no?  Percisely what this scene epitomized.


Offline dalemidex

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Re: Jack + Ennis: Was it happenstance or subconscious planning?
« Reply #10 on: Jul 17, 2006, 10:29 AM »
Thanks dalemidex.  I too have gone through a similar evolution of feelings about the FNIT.  There was a naturalness to it all that takes you aback on first viewing. 

When things like these happen in real life, then have the feel of the improbable, no?  Percisely what this scene epitomized.



You know, yiou're 100% right about that.  And sometimes I think movies go to far in making things like FNIT seem TOO obvious and unavoidable, -- that you see it coming from miles away.  That's not the case with FNIT, and maybe that level of improbability is better than the alternative.

Offline lamusica

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Re: Jack + Ennis: Was it happenstance or subconscious planning?
« Reply #11 on: Jul 17, 2006, 06:28 PM »
Dalemidex, this is for you, complements of Emily Dickinson, but I LOVE it>........
   A deed knocks first at thought,
   And then it knocks at will.
   That is the manufacturing spot
   And will at home and well.

   It then goes out an act
   Or is entombed so still
   That only to the ear of God
   Its doom is audible.

As we see, according to your interpretation of this scene, the deed was not entombed, but "goes out an act".  Maybe you're right.
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Offline dalemidex

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Re: Jack + Ennis: Was it happenstance or subconscious planning?
« Reply #12 on: Jul 18, 2006, 10:11 AM »
Thank you, lamusica! Very beautiful and appropriate.