Topic: why does alma freze and keep watching ennis and jack kiss

[ms.bluesky]

ok ive been thinking why does alma just watch and dont do nothing is she afraid that something will happen or she just confused i think she though like well he was ennis's fishing budding and has been waiting all night to meet him and this is what happens what else could have happened between them or why didnt she confront him about later?

[welshwitch]

It's something so far out of her limited life-experience and so far from anything she can imagine Ennis doing that she's simply incapable of reaction. She freezes as some people do when they see a snake, and to her Jack becomes the snake in the grass.

[smilesalot]

Plus, there's a need to just close the door and close her eyes and maybe it will go away. She didn't know at that time how far this was going to go. Maybe if it was just a "one-shot thing" and she can try to pretend it never happened. She probably had no idea what she was looking at, the assumption being she was a virgin when she got married, so wasn't very worldly when it came to sexual matters. She doesn't confront Ennis until after she's all set up safe and sound at Monroe's and there's no fall out if Ennis gets pissed off at her.

[stacp]

It's something so far out of her limited life-experience and so far from anything she can imagine Ennis doing that she's simply incapable of reaction. She freezes as some people do when they see a snake, and to her Jack becomes the snake in the grass.

I agree.  I am guessing nothing in Alma's background ever prepared her for what she saw.  I'm sure homosexuality to her was some vague notion that had everything to do with hell and damnation.   I bet she didn't even believe it when she saw it.  I'm sure Ennis had never kissed her like that before.  I bet over the years, she even questioned whether her eyes were playing tricks on her that day.  That's why I bet she put that note on the end of his fishing pole.   

[NoReins]

There's also the possibility (probability?) that Alma didn't really understand what she had just seen....I mean, she knows that two men kissing isn't usual (I deliberately didn't use "normal" here) but she almost certainly has no knowledge of homosexuality and probably - at that point at least - doesn't realise that there was any history to the kiss she saw.

This may sound daft, but I think if she had just seen them having a quick kiss then she probably wouldn't have batted an eyelid....what got to her more than anything at that point was that Ennis had never kissed her with that sort of passion.

[ms.bluesky]

ok

[aimi15]

There's also the possibility (probability?) that Alma didn't really understand what she had just seen....I mean, she knows that two men kissing isn't usual (I deliberately didn't use "normal" here) but she almost certainly has no knowledge of homosexuality and probably - at that point at least - doesn't realise that there was any history to the kiss she saw.

This may sound daft, but I think if she had just seen them having a quick kiss then she probably wouldn't have batted an eyelid....what got to her more than anything at that point was that Ennis had never kissed her with that sort of passion.

Yes! That's precisely it - brilliant point! They may seem loving kisses that Ennis gives Alma, but they also seem very deliberately so, deliberately gentle. They lack the fierceness and heat of the Ennis/Jack kiss. Maybe she hadn't realised Ennis had such passion in him?

[stacp]

There's also the possibility (probability?) that Alma didn't really understand what she had just seen....I mean, she knows that two men kissing isn't usual (I deliberately didn't use "normal" here) but she almost certainly has no knowledge of homosexuality and probably - at that point at least - doesn't realise that there was any history to the kiss she saw.

This may sound daft, but I think if she had just seen them having a quick kiss then she probably wouldn't have batted an eyelid....what got to her more than anything at that point was that Ennis had never kissed her with that sort of passion.

I think the passion of the kiss surely shocked Alma to the core.  But I have a feeling if Alma saw them even kiss on the lips, passion or no passion, she would have been stunned.  I mean, Ennis is a "cowboy;"  the ultimate in masculinity and manhood.  Kissing another man on the mouth, or even on the cheek probably would've been taboo.  I know if I saw my husband kiss another man on the lips at all, I would be shocked. 

[NoReins]

There's also the possibility (probability?) that Alma didn't really understand what she had just seen....I mean, she knows that two men kissing isn't usual (I deliberately didn't use "normal" here) but she almost certainly has no knowledge of homosexuality and probably - at that point at least - doesn't realise that there was any history to the kiss she saw.

This may sound daft, but I think if she had just seen them having a quick kiss then she probably wouldn't have batted an eyelid....what got to her more than anything at that point was that Ennis had never kissed her with that sort of passion.

I think the passion of the kiss surely shocked Alma to the core.  But I have a feeling if Alma saw them even kiss on the lips, passion or no passion, she would have been stunned.  I mean, Ennis is a "cowboy;"  the ultimate in masculinity and manhood.  Kissing another man on the mouth, or even on the cheek probably would've been taboo.  I know if I saw my husband kiss another man on the lips at all, I would be shocked. 

Yeah, but I just think Alma would not have had an reference point for what she saw and would therefore have let it pass - sure, she would have been uncomfortable about it, but I think she may have thought that it was something that did happen between very close friends. But what tore her apart was the ferocity and passion of the kiss and all the other touching and clutching that she sees too.

Just my opinion, mind.....

[Tom]

There's also the possibility (probability?) that Alma didn't really understand what she had just seen....I mean, she knows that two men kissing isn't usual (I deliberately didn't use "normal" here) but she almost certainly has no knowledge of homosexuality and probably - at that point at least - doesn't realise that there was any history to the kiss she saw.

This may sound daft, but I think if she had just seen them having a quick kiss then she probably wouldn't have batted an eyelid....what got to her more than anything at that point was that Ennis had never kissed her with that sort of passion.

I think the passion of the kiss surely shocked Alma to the core.  But I have a feeling if Alma saw them even kiss on the lips, passion or no passion, she would have been stunned.  I mean, Ennis is a "cowboy;"  the ultimate in masculinity and manhood.  Kissing another man on the mouth, or even on the cheek probably would've been taboo.  I know if I saw my husband kiss another man on the lips at all, I would be shocked. 

Yeah, but I just think Alma would not have had an reference point for what she saw and would therefore have let it pass - sure, she would have been uncomfortable about it, but I think she may have thought that it was something that did happen between very close friends. But what tore her apart was the ferocity and passion of the kiss and all the other touching and clutching that she sees too.

Just my opinion, mind.....

I agree at the time when this was set (in the early 1960's) homosexuality was seldom written or spoken about. Alma was probably shocked at the passion as you mentioned and maybe not the kiss itself . For all she knew this was how cowboys greeted each other .

I remember in the 1960's at Waverley Station in Edinburgh when I saw some French men greet each other with kisses on the cheeks......to my British mind this was very very alien. Nowadays even some British men (albeit pretentious ones) greet each other with kisses.

We have to remember when and where this was set and not compare it with anything that we see today. This is the thing about this movie for us older gays...we remember these days before gay themes were used in movies , books and television and how isolated we felt because we believed ( at that time) that no one else was like us.

I think the shock of the passion Ennis was showing to this 'old buddy' was what rooted Alma to the spot.

[gimmejack]

It's something so far out of her limited life-experience and so far from anything she can imagine Ennis doing that she's simply incapable of reaction. She freezes as some people do when they see a snake, and to her Jack becomes the snake in the grass.

I like this quote...well put!

[Jennis]

There's also the possibility (probability?) that Alma didn't really understand what she had just seen....I mean, she knows that two men kissing isn't usual (I deliberately didn't use "normal" here) but she almost certainly has no knowledge of homosexuality and probably - at that point at least - doesn't realise that there was any history to the kiss she saw.

This may sound daft, but I think if she had just seen them having a quick kiss then she probably wouldn't have batted an eyelid....what got to her more than anything at that point was that Ennis had never kissed her with that sort of passion.

I think the passion of the kiss surely shocked Alma to the core.  But I have a feeling if Alma saw them even kiss on the lips, passion or no passion, she would have been stunned.  I mean, Ennis is a "cowboy;"  the ultimate in masculinity and manhood.  Kissing another man on the mouth, or even on the cheek probably would've been taboo.  I know if I saw my husband kiss another man on the lips at all, I would be shocked. 

If i saw my husband (if i had one),he would be out on his ear,but i'm not Alma,and initially like you said,she was in shock.Also,the times were different although personally i still see no reason why she didn't confront him there and then,but i have to think this is Alma,not me.When Ennis goes off with Jack after the reunion kiss,Alma has a lot of thinking time.She loved Ennis,didn't want to lose him,didn't want to break up her family,although ultimately that is what happens as she couldn't take the strain of living a lie and it still eats away at her until she finally confronts him at the thanksgiving.So my conclusion is the combination of shock,and fear caused Alma not to say anything for years.

Jennis.x

[Jennis]

ok ive been thinking why does alma just watch and dont do nothing is she afraid that something will happen or she just confused i think she though like well he was ennis's fishing budding and has been waiting all night to meet him and this is what happens what else could have happened between them or why didnt she confront him about later?

I was just reading an article and it reminded me of your thread.I already left a comment,but thinking about Alma in that situation and you asked why did she freeze,i said before initially it would of been shock,not just because Ennis was kissing another man but Alma'a head must of been racing with thoughts about their own sex life etc.We know Ennis liked to turn her over and do it Jack style and i suspect as soon as Ennis went off for the weekend she was thinking of all of this and the worst thing for Alma would probably be the thought that Ennis prefered men,or didn't love her at all but just used her as a cover.I think as a female that would be the natural progression of thought and she didn't want to lose him to anybody,let alone Jack,so she stayed quiet for years.

Jennis.x

Here is the article i was reading...

Sat, Jul. 15, 2006   

KELLY RICHARDSON: TEEN TALK

Readers put in their two cents' worth

Dear Readers: As always, you have a lot to say about responses to questions. Here is just a small sample of replies from recent columns. Whether you agree with me or not, I do appreciate your input and thank you for reading the column.
• • •
DEAR KELLY: I cannot believe your answer to the young girl whose father came out of the closet! Are you short of clients and wanting to guarantee this young girl will need therapy, because you just taught her to believe her father chose to disrupt the family and change his orientation. Congratulations. You just made her difficult situation more difficult. Now she has a scapegoat for all the family troubles. How nice! How many other kids reading this will think of their gay parents as the cause of their problems rather than as courageous individuals who can teach anyone a lesson in fearless honesty. But we can't have kids actually learning to admire and love their gay parents when it's so much more convenient to blame them.
As a therapist, you should be ashamed of yourself!!
• • •
Kelly, regarding your column today about the Dad "coming out," the film "Brokeback Mountain" opened the door to many situations such as you report -- throughout the country and world.
For whatever societal pressure, gay men who felt pressured into marrying are finally beginning to realize that they are no longer obligated to deny who they are, and are going forward into a life reflecting their true identities, and with a person they can truly love physically and spiritually. The daughters and family need to shed their misplaced anger and think of their father's happiness instead. -- D. H.
• • •

http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/local/states/california/15046177.htm

[KatKat]

She couldn't believe what she sees
she starts at them , and makes sure that's what she's seeing....

[Patriot1]

Alma was probably shocked at the passion as you mentioned and maybe not the kiss itself . For all she knew this was how cowboys greeted each other .

No, I don't think so Tombul. Alma was either raised on a ranch or around ranchers. I think she knew she had never seen men kiss before. It was the kiss that was the shock but adding to it was the intensity of the kiss she saw.

I have often wondered why the 4th of July scene was put into the picture. Now I wonder if it was put in to show that Ennis could be a very violent man. After all, skinny little Ennis took on and defeated two rather large bikers.  I think it showed Alma she never wanted to get Ennis mad.  Perhaps this is why she never mentioned what she saw.

And I remembered the 60s well. I was sure I was the only person in the world who was attracted to men. If I had only known then what I know now.

[welshwitch]

It's also true that at the moment of the reunion alma is tied down by two young children - her sitaution is like that of many women in marriages that might not work well but in which they are trapped by economic factors. When she gets the job she is financially more independent and gets to know Monroe; in the supermarket scene it'sd clear that he's at least fond of her, so she has an alternative. By the Thanksgiving scene she's his wife, with a much nicer home than she ever had before, pregnant with his child, Ennis's two girls supported by his payments, and in a much better position to say what she thinks.

Immediately after the reunion scene she's in no position to risk her future and that of the girls, even if she wants to, but I still think she's simply incapable of dealing with what she's seen.

(If this all sounds like some sort of rehashed feminist stuff, i'm sorry - much as I loathe feminism and all its works, it's insidious and occasionally has some relevance to the real wolrd.)

[Tom]

Great post Welshwitch. It is true that in the 60's people remained in marriages for financial and economical reasons. Families and society saw these , mostly, women as failures if they tried to make a breakand the blame for break ups was usually laid at their door.

I have aunts who did that very thing....you know everyone saying   " Well he works hard, he brings in the dough, so what if he slaps her once in a while". I heard other women say that when I was growing up in the 60's.

Nowadays there is better support for women who want to work, and family tends to understand more now. It works both ways now, if a man is gay then he can also leave. I had never thought of the material differences between Alm's life with Ennis and later with Munroe before. Good point

[lamusica]

I came to the same conclusion about why the Fourth of July scene was put in the movie.  Also, the scene when Ennis leaves Alma's house after the Thanksgiving fiasco and goes to the tavern and gets into a fight in the street.  I agree that Ennis had a violent side..  I think when he brought the girls to the store for Alma to take care of while she was working showed that side too.  Just remember the look Ennis gave Alma when she said she couldn't take the girls because she had a lot of work to finish up there first.  Alma immeidately backed down.  I think she knew just how far she could push Ennis and didn't want to cross that line.  I think that's part of the reason she never brought up having seen the reunion kiss to Ennis.  She knew he would explode.  Just my opiinion.  I think Ennis had trouble with all sorts of emotions, not just love and friendship.  (I still love him, though!)

[tpe]

One can only guess what went through Alma's mind at this point.  Like Ennis, she was stoic and used to hardships.  AS was also noted in one of the above posts, she also had children to raise and she tried her best to help Ennis support them.

The strength of Alma's character has not been noted too often in these threads, and I am partly guilty of not stressing this enough.  It calls for strong inner control -- to try to seem unflustered after seeing them kiss.

[welshwitch]

She seems to be as good as Ennis at repressing her emotions most of the time - she cries only after he's gone off with Jack. Later, even during the divorce,she's outwardly unemotional, if cold - trying not to show her feelings? They burst out only in the Thanksgiving scene, after which her relationship with Ennis apparently ends, because, i think, she's finally almost voiced and certainly implied that she knows exactly what the relationship with Jack involved, and she can't cope with knowing and having anything to do with Ennis.

Then I wonder whether Ennis, knowing that Jack has admitted to going to Mexico and why, would feel that things betweeen them had also changed irrevocably - the two scenes seem in some ways parallel.

[gimmejack]

Excellent points...however DE-NIAL is not just a river in Egypt!

[jesseanne21]

There's also the possibility (probability?) that Alma didn't really understand what she had just seen....I mean, she knows that two men kissing isn't usual (I deliberately didn't use "normal" here) but she almost certainly has no knowledge of homosexuality and probably - at that point at least - doesn't realise that there was any history to the kiss she saw.

This may sound daft, but I think if she had just seen them having a quick kiss then she probably wouldn't have batted an eyelid....what got to her more than anything at that point was that Ennis had never kissed her with that sort of passion.

I think the passion of the kiss surely shocked Alma to the core.  But I have a feeling if Alma saw them even kiss on the lips, passion or no passion, she would have been stunned.  I mean, Ennis is a "cowboy;"  the ultimate in masculinity and manhood.  Kissing another man on the mouth, or even on the cheek probably would've been taboo.  I know if I saw my husband kiss another man on the lips at all, I would be shocked. 

If i saw my husband (if i had one),he would be out on his ear,but i'm not Alma,and initially like you said,she was in shock.Also,the times were different although personally i still see no reason why she didn't confront him there and then,but i have to think this is Alma,not me.When Ennis goes off with Jack after the reunion kiss,Alma has a lot of thinking time.She loved Ennis,didn't want to lose him,didn't want to break up her family,although ultimately that is what happens as she couldn't take the strain of living a lie and it still eats away at her until she finally confronts him at the thanksgiving.So my conclusion is the combination of shock,and fear caused Alma not to say anything for years.

Jennis.x

When I first saw BBM it never occurred to me that Alma DIDN'T know what she was seeing.  I thought she was stunned because when she saw that kiss between Jack and Ennis  she REALIZED some hard truths about her husband and her marriage..  A lot of wives turn a blind eye to their husbands cheating, especially when they have children and limited resources. 

[cremetorte]

When I first saw BBM it never occurred to me that Alma DIDN'T know what she was seeing.  I thought she was stunned because when she saw that kiss between Jack and Ennis  she REALIZED some hard truths about her husband and her marriage..  A lot of wives turn a blind eye to their husbands cheating, especially when they have children and limited resources. 

that's exactly what i thought. i think she did know what she saw there - that's why she was frozen in that place when she saw E&J - but she didn't know what to do. in her mind, there was no way that she could divorce ennis (notice that she wanted to go to the church social, but ennis didn't want to... i think alma was probably brought up with a catholic(?) background that told her to stay with her husband or something...)

just my 2 cents... hope you understand what i mean.. it's already 0:40am here and i'm getting tired...

[ksxks]

This may sound daft, but I think if she had just seen them having a quick kiss then she probably wouldn't have batted an eyelid....what got to her more than anything at that point was that Ennis had never kissed her with that sort of passion.

Maybe she'd've thought that's what Texans do!

Sorry -- I know this is a serious discussion but I couldn't help it, kind of.

kathy

[ksxks]

When I first saw BBM it never occurred to me that Alma DIDN'T know what she was seeing.  I thought she was stunned because when she saw that kiss between Jack and Ennis  she REALIZED some hard truths about her husband and her marriage..  A lot of wives turn a blind eye to their husbands cheating, especially when they have children and limited resources. 

Interesting, jesseanne -- most people, I believe, think of her as so inocent.  But the hard truth of those times was economic inequality and minimum opportunities for women -- it would have been hard for her to try to get rid of him and be on her own.  Uncommon, too -- probably a disappointment to her family, her church.  (And without feminism, and other social changes, women in situations like Alma's would still be the norm.)  But things did improve for her, and the girls got older, and she had a nice suitor.

Which reminds me:  I wonder, in Wyoming divorce law at the time, if grounds were needed, as opposed to "no-fault" divorce.  What would she have said is her reason for filing for dissolution of marriage?

I do think she was afraid of Ennis, also -- another thing very common in those times in that culture.  Though I was proud of her when she kept walking when Ennis was yelling about her putting dinner on the table.  That's the only scene I actually dislike Ennis.  Though the truth is, I just think they should have written better lines for him right then, about why he was mad she was going to work.  ("We aint' gonna eat unless you put it on the table."  F**king bozo -- put it on the damn table yourself.  BFD.  Maybe the fight was really about sex.  Maybe she wasn't letting him do her any more...but I stray...)

kathy

[stacp]

When I first saw BBM it never occurred to me that Alma DIDN'T know what she was seeing.  I thought she was stunned because when she saw that kiss between Jack and Ennis  she REALIZED some hard truths about her husband and her marriage..  A lot of wives turn a blind eye to their husbands cheating, especially when they have children and limited resources. 

Interesting, jesseanne -- most people, I believe, think of her as so inocent.  But the hard truth of those times was economic inequality and minimum opportunities for women -- it would have been hard for her to try to get rid of him and be on her own.  Uncommon, too -- probably a disappointment to her family, her church.  (And without feminism, and other social changes, women in situations like Alma's would still be the norm.)  But things did improve for her, and the girls got older, and she had a nice suitor.

Which reminds me:  I wonder, in Wyoming divorce law at the time, if grounds were needed, as opposed to "no-fault" divorce.  What would she have said is her reason for filing for dissolution of marriage?

I do think she was afraid of Ennis, also -- another thing very common in those times in that culture.  Though I was proud of her when she kept walking when Ennis was yelling about her putting dinner on the table.  That's the only scene I actually dislike Ennis.  Though the truth is, I just think they should have written better lines for him right then, about why he was mad she was going to work.  ("We aint' gonna eat unless you put it on the table."  F**king bozo -- put it on the damn table yourself.  BFD.  Maybe the fight was really about sex.  Maybe she wasn't letting him do her any more...but I stray...)

kathy

I agree that divorce probably wasn't an option for Alma at the time she saw them kiss.  I know many couples who would've married about the same time as Alma and Ennis and they are still together, despite having unfullfilled marriages.  You just didn't divorce.  Period.  Plus, she had two young kids, and I genuinely think she loved Ennis.  So, maybe she did realize exaclty what she saw, and a lightbulb went off for her, like "Now I know why he's so moody and only wants to have sex with me face down." 

[welshwitch]

I think Alma is limited in all sorts of ways, and though we don't often say so, Ennis is a complex character - Jack says "You're too much for me" at the end; I think Ennis is too much for Alma from the moment he receives and replies to the first postcard. She eventually settles for Monroe because he's straightforward and undemanding ( or in my view boring). Seing him and Jack together is the beginning of her realisation that she's involved in but not part of something she doesn't ( and probably doesn't want to) understand.

[smilesalot]

And what it must have done to Alma - her pride, her self-respect -when she begins to realize, What ELSE can I do? I cook for him, clean for him, I give birth and raise his kids, I work because he loves these stupid dead-end jobs so's he can quit at a moment's notice to be with that Nasty Man...and still he doesn't kiss me like that! This must have eaten her up. Did he even love me? Was he just using me? How demeaning to sit there and watch her husband jittery and excited about one of his fishing trips - knowing she was being lied to. Thinking of all the times SHE wanted to go out and do something fun, maybe go to the mountains for even a bit of a drive with the girls -- and Ennis was always saying he had to work, unwilling to be sociable.

Alma was as stuck as Ennis was. She was caught up in what will the neighbors think? Will her family still even talk to her if she's a divorcee? And what about love - what decent man would even take on a divorced woman with two little kids?  A 26 yr. old woman can't divorce and raise two little girls on her own! I think it took Alma a long time to get to the stage where she felt confident enough to strike out on her own. Ennis was supposed to be the love of her life. But she wasn't the love of his life. And she probably hated herself because she couldn't stop loving him and didn't know how to stop.

[welshwitch]

I lways rationalize this by saying that she didn't fall in love with Ennis the way he did with Jack; what she found with Monroe was what she wanted. I don't see her as being capable of a grand passion ( but that's probably because I don't want to). But being deserted and humiliated is certainly what she feels, and maybe being frightened and confused by the reason for that, too.

[stacp]

And what it must have done to Alma - her pride, her self-respect -when she begins to realize, What ELSE can I do? I cook for him, clean for him, I give birth and raise his kids, I work because he loves these stupid dead-end jobs so's he can quit at a moment's notice to be with that Nasty Man...and still he doesn't kiss me like that! This must have eaten her up. Did he even love me? Was he just using me? How demeaning to sit there and watch her husband jittery and excited about one of his fishing trips - knowing she was being lied to. Thinking of all the times SHE wanted to go out and do something fun, maybe go to the mountains for even a bit of a drive with the girls -- and Ennis was always saying he had to work, unwilling to be sociable.

Alma was as stuck as Ennis was. She was caught up in what will the neighbors think? Will her family still even talk to her if she's a divorcee? And what about love - what decent man would even take on a divorced woman with two little kids?  A 26 yr. old woman can't divorce and raise two little girls on her own! I think it took Alma a long time to get to the stage where she felt confident enough to strike out on her own. Ennis was supposed to be the love of her life. But she wasn't the love of his life. And she probably hated herself because she couldn't stop loving him and didn't know how to stop.

Very good points, smilesalot.  I got the impression that Alma was still carrying a torch for Ennis during that Thanksgiving scene, and I mean more than just the angry torch.  I think she still loved him and was angry at him for not loving her back.  My sister is divorced from an ex husband she could care less about.  She doesn't give him a second thought, despite all the crap he pulled during her marriage (for which she has every reason to be angry about).  She just doesn't care because she doesn't care about him.  But Alma has that fire in her eyes and the pain just seems to be so raw for her, like there are feeling still there.  And, let's face it, Ennis is way hotter than Monroe!  (Sorry, I couldn't resist).