Author Topic: why does alma freze and keep watching ennis and jack kiss (Read 64035 times)

tpe · « **Reply #90 on:** Oct 07, 2006, 03:17 PM »

Quote from: ksxks on Oct 04, 2006, 10:25 PM

Quote from: smilesalot on Oct 04, 2006, 09:02 AM
Wow! Love those pics Kathy, that little shared smile between them at the doorway. You can see how they're both trying SO HARD to be normal but they can't help but be all giggly and trembly and giddy from being together after four long years.

I also love the little smile Ennis gives Alma when Jack says the "I gotta boy. Eight months old. Smiles a lot" line. Ennis just looks up and his whole face says, "Isn't he great? Don't you just love him?"

No wonder Alma can't handle it. The last time she saw her husband this happy was tobogganing in the snow, and maybe now she's questioning even that, and what kind of life they've built together.

Love what you said here! And of course, this has to be one of your favorite scenes -- your name.

And I always have to say, what an amazing job these two did. As I've said before, it's not some caricature lust they portrayed here, but absolutely full every moment of subtlety and nuance. It's easy to play that caricature, but what they did is infuse these characters with a very unique love with their every look and touch and word.

kathy

Absolutely true kathy. Full of subtlety, nuance, and an intense lyricism. It is almosy musical. It is music.

tpe · « **Reply #91 on:** Oct 07, 2006, 03:24 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Oct 06, 2006, 09:43 AM

Whether you put it down to "When in doubt, do nothing" or just good old cowardice, the fact that Alma simply does nothing at this point dictates the rest of the story. What if she'd asked Ennis not to go, demanded that if he goes he comes back later in the evening and doesn't stay out all night? There's a degree to which she colludes here and with the later fishing trips - if she didn't, there would have to be some other solution but she never forces Ennis to choose between her and Jack.

Yes, in a sense, she sends him out knowing what is to transpire. It was indeed so bitter for her, but she let it transpire nonetheless. Again, there is realism here. One would think that common sense would dictate that she would do everything in her power to stop them going off into the mountains -- but she did not have the strength to confront Ennis nor did she have the determination to assert her right to Ennis as his wife. How many times does such a thing occur? I can cite 2 similar instances in real life (one a childhood neighbor's family and the other a friend in grad school). Alma was like most humans in their inability to think and act in black and white. That is why her character is so believable.

tpe · « **Reply #92 on:** Oct 07, 2006, 03:29 PM »

Quote from: CrimsonSky on Oct 06, 2006, 06:56 PM

I never thought I'd say this Kathy, but I see it totally differently I thought Monroe seemed very uncomfortable in the Thanksgiving scene, almost like an outsider in his own home.He stops carving the turkey so Ennis can tell his story about the rodeo, then when Ennis is finished Monroe looks at Alma, as if to check that it's ok to carry on,I suppose it could just be that he was just being polite, but it felt to me like he didn't appreciate having to interrupt what he was doing for Ennis,and he would've appreciated Alma telling Jr that Ennis would tell the story once Monroe had finished carving the turkey but he didn't feel that he could say anything(actually, typing that just made me think that there's a similarity there with Jack's Thanksgiving scene with LD, maybe that's what put the idea in my head? It never stops, does it? )
I think Alma wore the trousers in the relationship with Monroe,and he would've been aware that wasn't the case with Alma and Ennis,even if Alma hadn't told him anything about her and Ennis, he would've realised that from the scene in the supermarket.Monroe strikes me as the sort of guy that is always bemoaning the fact that girls always like the bad guys and never the "nice" guys like him, so in that sense he might have felt inferior in some way to Ennis(assuming Alma hadn't told him about Ennis and Jack, which personally I don't think she would). Not to mention the fact that physically Ennis was taller and more muscular than Monroe, I think Monroe would've found him very intimidating physically as well, that's the only reason I can think of for him not getting up off his chair when he heard all the commotion from the kitchen, he was very slow to react, and when he does he hardly reacts at all, Ennis, for all his faults as a husband, would've been in there like a shot if it had been the other way around.

You would think that afterwards Monroe would've asked Alma for an explanation, but I get the feeling that Alma would've said she didn't want to discuss it and Monroe would've just left it, he doesn't seem like the type to push the issue. I don't think Alma would've told Monroe about Ennis,she couldn't bring herself to confront Ennis about it for years, she was in denial about it herself for years, even went to the trouble of setting the "trap" with the fishing line, rather than just telling him what she'd seen, and then when she does confront him, it's with the creel case story, if she really wanted to force him to admit it, why not just say that she's seeing him kissing Jack? there's no way he could've said that didn't prove anything I think that even after the divorce, Alma didn't want to believe that Ennis was in love with another man, maybe because of what she thought that might say about her, wasn't she a good enough wife, a "real" woman, if her husband preferred being with a man to being with her? She might have worried it would reflect badly on her if she told Monroe, and didn't want to put her new marriage at risk, either way, I don't see that she had anything to gain from telling him.

Blimey, I can't believe I wrote such a long rambling post about Monroe, of all people! :-[ Jack and/or Ennis is one thing, but Monroe?!

Wondeful exposition, CrimsonSky. Your assessment of Monroe's character impresses me a great deal. I am quite taken in. And you do give me pause to consider that Alma just kept quiet about everything. I don't know whether I am totally convinced, but I am quite willing to consider this possibility from your way of looking at things...

tpe · « **Reply #93 on:** Oct 07, 2006, 03:33 PM »

Quote from: Twisted on Oct 07, 2006, 01:08 PM

I haven't read the thread yet, but here's my opinion.

Was Alma a christian girl? I think that she had never even heard about gays, so she was so shocked when she saw Ennis and Jack kissing, that she couldn't move even if she wanted to.

Little OT but... When i saw the film the first time, i froze myself when i saw Alma open the door and look at them. I thought, that plaese please don't say or do anything. If she had said something to Ennis, while they were still married, it might have change things, and a lot.

Very intereting, Twisted. When I first saw this scene, I must admit that I was too engrossed with the reunion kiss and though of Alma opening the door as an unpleasant intrusion. Still I was quite happy to see her retreat so that Jack and Ennis's bliss would remain undisturbed.

Quite a cruel reaction, in retrospect: it amazes me up to now how little sympathy I have for Alma in this scene. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

welshwitch · « **Reply #94 on:** Oct 07, 2006, 05:34 PM »

I can see that she's watching something she can't comprehend but that is dismantling her world in front of her - but I still don't feel any sympathy for her, not even out of female solidarity ( of which I have precious little opnion anyway). This seems to show however, that those who say movies manipulate our reactions are right, though I've never thought of myself as easily manipulated by things I know to be created in order to do just that.

We identify so much wioth E and J at this point ( out of some sort of wish-fulfillment?) that we never think about Alma. When the camera moves inside with her, all we want to do is see what's developing outside.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #95 on:** Oct 07, 2006, 06:55 PM »

Yeah, we identify with J-E but if I personally saw what Alma saw. I would freeze too, but then I'd have to say a few words.? ask a few questions? Like WTF?....but I'm not Alma.She expected to see Ennis and Jack when she opened the door but not like that!

I just wished she'd said something. A part of me wants to see that exchange between her and Jack sorry I can't help it. .Maybe a knock down drag out over the man they both love. But that's just me. sigh...so much drama and I love it.

ksxks · « **Reply #96 on:** Oct 07, 2006, 10:35 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Oct 07, 2006, 09:57 AM

OK, she froze when she saw them kissing and said nothing the next day, or at any time after. Yet she set the note-on-the -fishing-line trap - why ? What ddi she want to prove? That they'weren'tfishing and that Ennis has been lying to her? But once she had the knowledge she did nothing with it literally for years. So he never had the chance to admit (or deny) anything, as he doesn't at Thanksgiving, so was she just keeping her knowledge to herself, as she did after the reunion, and feling smug about it? You know, "I know something you don't know I know"? ( Any minute now I'm going to get into known knowns and known unknowns and unknown unknowns!) Did she intend to use it against Ennis in the divorce? But she didn't apparently, and couldn't have backed it up with any evidence anyway.

It strikes me that Alma was as incapable of breaking out of her comfort zone as Ennis was. Of course Monroe is no problem - he comes over as lacking Ennis's strength, physical and mental. So with him she has material comfort and a husband who's probably easier to deal with than Ennis ever was. I can see why she prefers him, but I still can;t see why she acts as she does after the reunion kiss or later.

Exactly. She is more of an enigma than it would first appear. She's not just a poor, ignorant victim. It could be a kind of manipulation to have information and keep it to herself. But she never threatened with it, then only let it be known to Ennis when it was moot anyway.

kathy

Philchel · « **Reply #97 on:** Oct 08, 2006, 06:59 AM »

Such a surprise/shock would make all of us freeze, wouldn't it ?

Alma probably didn't talk about it sooner since 1) she didn't want to think about the risk of loosing Ennis, 2) knowing him not being a big talker he probably wouldn't give any answer and 3) what should she than do with the answer ?

I suppose she only found the strength to speak about it to Ennis after so many years, still afraid of the answer to her question, since she needed an asnwer to the question she probably thinks about every day.

I'm convinced she's not happy with Monroe, but just accepted him since only solution for her as divorced women. To me Monroe seems such a soft man and just wanted a 'wife' since every real man who was not interested in Ennis but tolerated his presence to the thanksgiving dinner as 1) a favour to AlmaJr and 2) to show Ennis what he couldn't offer his family before.

welshwitch · « **Reply #98 on:** Oct 08, 2006, 08:09 AM »

You're right; there must be an element in Monroe of wanting to show Ennis all the material things he can give Alma, and that she feels free with him to have the child she couldn;t afford while with Ennis. Maybe Alma feels something like the same - she is in a way paying Ennis back for all the years of uncertainty, all the times he went off with Jack, all the lies, expressed or implied, that he told her, the poverty, at least part of which was attributable to his taking only poorly-paid jobs he could dump at a few weeks' notice. Now she is secure and relatively prosperous, and he's on the outside looking in, as she once was when she saw him with Jack.

Philchel · « **Reply #99 on:** Oct 08, 2006, 08:19 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Oct 08, 2006, 08:09 AM

and he's on the outside looking in, as she once was when she saw him with Jack.

I didn't see it from this point of view till now - you can be right. I don't think Ennis is looking for this material comfort.

welshwitch · « **Reply #100 on:** Oct 08, 2006, 08:41 AM »

No, Ennis needs emotional comfort, which is what Jack gives him and I don't know if Alma ever does.

Philchel · « **Reply #101 on:** Oct 08, 2006, 08:54 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Oct 08, 2006, 08:41 AM

No, Ennis needs emotional comfort, which is what Jack gives him and I don't know if Alma ever does.

Fully agree with you - that's why I think he was not really interested to 'look in from the outside' since probably not really interested in Alma's relationship with Monroe (not jalous at all - probably reassured that Alma and his daughters had a good/save home). Totally different from Alma's look on his relationship with Jack (Not knowing what to think and everything except boring)

welshwitch · « **Reply #102 on:** Oct 09, 2006, 01:20 AM »

I don't know - sometimes I wonder if deep down Ennis wants exactly what Alma and Munroe have, a settled way of life, a home and kids, which he might have had himself if Jack hadn't come into his life. Given the turmoil and disruption loving Jack has caused, he'd have to be inhuman not to wonder, just occasionally,what his ife would have been like if the summer on Brokeback had never happened. And ironically of course he was only there to make enough money to get married...

aintfoolin · « **Reply #103 on:** Oct 09, 2006, 03:11 AM »

Deep down inside he may have wondered , even had the chance to try another serious relationship with Cassie, but could'nt or would'nt do it.

welshwitch · « **Reply #104 on:** Oct 09, 2006, 11:31 AM »

Odd, isn't it, that Alma freezes for those few minutes after seeing the reunion kiss, while Ennis is frozen emotionally and in beliefs right till the end of the movie.

Philchel · « **Reply #105 on:** Oct 09, 2006, 01:11 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Oct 09, 2006, 11:31 AM

Odd, isn't it, that Alma freezes for those few minutes after seeing the reunion kiss, while Ennis is frozen emotionally and in beliefs right till the end of the movie.

Indeed, really odd for the both of them. Alma freezes for a few seconds and as of that moment :

1) her life will never be that good/happy anymore.
2) Ennis will be happy a couple of times per year and - like you write so beautifully - 'will be frozen emotionally and in beliefs right till the end of the movie'

welshwitch · « **Reply #106 on:** Oct 09, 2006, 03:10 PM »

So that in a way this is the defining, pivotal moment of their lives. After the summer on Brokeback it could all have ended ; neither Jack nor Ennis might have been happy, but they might have found a sort of cententment if they'd settled for that. Had Jack never come back they would never have kissed; had Alma not seen them she wouldn't have started on the path towards divorce.As she stands there at the top of the stairs the world is changing around her.

Philchel · « **Reply #107 on:** Oct 09, 2006, 03:15 PM »

Indeed - and she has no other choice than accept the change and try to manage it. That makes it again so real ... we all have to manage change every day

greenfrog · « **Reply #108 on:** Oct 09, 2006, 10:22 PM »

Quote from: Philchel on Oct 09, 2006, 03:15 PM

Indeed - and she has no other choice than accept the change and try to manage it. That makes it again so real ... we all have to manage change every day

Agreed

Patriot1 · « **Reply #109 on:** Oct 10, 2006, 12:35 AM »

When Jack came back it seems Ennis dropped all activity with his family. I can't help but wonder if Alma would have stuck around with Ennis if he took her and the kids out once in a while and went on vacation with them occasionally and maybe brought some fish home for them. Instead, it was as if he wanted nothing to do with them any longer, he just waited for the times he could be with Jack.

greenfrog · « **Reply #110 on:** Oct 10, 2006, 12:42 AM »

Quote from: Patriot1 on Oct 10, 2006, 12:35 AM

When Jack came back it seems Ennis dropped all activity with his family. I can't help but wonder if Alma would have stuck around with Ennis if he took her and the kids out once in a while and went on vacation with them occasionally and maybe brought some fish home for them. Instead, it was as if he wanted nothing to do with them any longer, he just waited for the times he could be with Jack.

That's very true. Once Jack came into his life again, Ennis couldn't keep himself away from him.

welshwitch · « **Reply #111 on:** Oct 10, 2006, 01:45 PM »

I think Ennis kept his family and Jack separate in his mind. When Jack wasn't there he just got on with his life; when Jack was there he dropped everything to be with him. He felt guilty anyway; no way he's have brought fish home from the trip and made conversation about it. that would have brought his two worlds into collision.

Patriot1 · « **Reply #112 on:** Oct 10, 2006, 05:11 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Oct 10, 2006, 01:45 PM

I think Ennis kept his family and Jack separate in his mind. When Jack wasn't there he just got on with his life; when Jack was there he dropped everything to be with him.

If that is true, then his life didn't include his family. He never did anything with them. He wouldn't even take Alma to the church social and insulted her by referring to church people as that fire and brimstone crowd. Alma and the girls went to church and his remark put them into that category also.

Quote from: welshwitch

He felt guilty anyway; no way he's have brought fish home from the trip and made conversation about it. that would have brought his two worlds into collision.

Everything Ennis did do made Alma suspicious. He puts on his best shirt, paces the floor, chain smokes, chain drinks while waiting for Jack. He runs out of the house when Jack shows up. I think it would be obvious to anyone he was anxious to see Jack again. Then, he tells his wife he is going fishing but never brings home fish even after his daughter asks him to. Just something else to make Alma suspicious. He made Alma so suspicious she set a trap for him with the note. If Ennis was smart he would have brought home fish to make Alma believe that was the reason he and Jack actually went fishing. Everything Ennis did told Alma there was something going on between him and Jack and it wasn't fishing. Ennis wasn't too smart.

welshwitch · « **Reply #113 on:** Oct 10, 2006, 05:49 PM »

I agree. I don't think he had any idea of the impression he was creating in her mind.

lamusica · « **Reply #114 on:** Oct 10, 2006, 06:00 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Oct 10, 2006, 05:49 PM

I agree. I don't think he had any idea of the impression he was creating in her mind.

Once Alma has seen the boys ksissing, I don't think suspicion is the right word. She KNEW. She may not have wanted to face up to what that might mean in her marriage, so she hid her knowledge and just went on with her daily life. Surely, though, her image of Ennis had changed irrevocably from that minute on. She may not have realized what all went on on their trips, but she knew she wasn't in Ennis mind. The trips were Jack time. Very little fishing being done at all.

welshwitch · « **Reply #115 on:** Oct 10, 2006, 07:13 PM »

And after seeing the kiss you'd have thought she'd have rmemembered Ennis's preferred sexual position and put two and two together - maybe she did.

greenfrog · « **Reply #116 on:** Oct 10, 2006, 07:27 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Oct 10, 2006, 07:13 PM

And after seeing the kiss you'd have thought she'd have rmemembered Ennis's preferred sexual position and put two and two together - maybe she did.

Possibly

tpe · « **Reply #117 on:** Oct 11, 2006, 07:15 AM »

Quote from: Patriot1 on Oct 10, 2006, 05:11 PM

Quote from: welshwitch on Oct 10, 2006, 01:45 PM
I think Ennis kept his family and Jack separate in his mind. When Jack wasn't there he just got on with his life; when Jack was there he dropped everything to be with him.

If that is true, then his life didn't include his family. He never did anything with them. He wouldn't even take Alma to the church social and insulted her by referring to church people as that fire and brimstone crowd. Alma and the girls went to church and his remark put them into that category also.

Quote from: welshwitch
He felt guilty anyway; no way he's have brought fish home from the trip and made conversation about it. that would have brought his two worlds into collision.

Everything Ennis did do made Alma suspicious. He puts on his best shirt, paces the floor, chain smokes, chain drinks while waiting for Jack. He runs out of the house when Jack shows up. I think it would be obvious to anyone he was anxious to see Jack again. Then, he tells his wife he is going fishing but never brings home fish even after his daughter asks him to. Just something else to make Alma suspicious. He made Alma so suspicious she set a trap for him with the note. If Ennis was smart he would have brought home fish to make Alma believe that was the reason he and Jack actually went fishing. Everything Ennis did told Alma there was something going on between him and Jack and it wasn't fishing. Ennis wasn't too smart.

Ennis certainly didn't seem to care, or was wretchedly "stupid" about hiding his affair with Jack, no? I wonder if Ennis would have changed that much even if he somehow got to know that Alma saw them kissing.

Another thing: did Alma freeze because she was thinking of whether or not to confront them? Perhaps it was a moment of indecision on her part -- not knowing automatically what to do...

lamusica · « **Reply #118 on:** Oct 11, 2006, 06:44 PM »

I'm sure Alma did some thinking about how she was going to handle this new knowledge she picked up by viewing the kiss. She had to weigh the pros and cons. She obviously wasn't ready to give Ennis up at this time -- didn't want to raise two little girls alone -- what could she do? On the other hand, she couldn't feel the same about Ennis as she had before the kiss. What to do? I think she did the only thing she could do -- pretend it didn't happen. However, pretend all she might, she still knew what she had seen. In those days, there would not have been any discussing this issue with Ennis. It would have just been an argument -- denial on Ennis's part, then, if his temper flared up ( as it often did) the scene could have turned nasty. Alma didn' want to chance that. For the time being, she decided to let things go. Kept her mouth shut and lived with her secret knowledge.

tpe · « **Reply #119 on:** Oct 12, 2006, 07:15 AM »

Quote from: lamusica on Oct 11, 2006, 06:44 PM

I'm sure Alma did some thinking about how she was going to handle this new knowledge she picked up by viewing the kiss. She had to weigh the pros and cons. She obviously wasn't ready to give Ennis up at this time -- didn't want to raise two little girls alone -- what could she do? On the other hand, she couldn't feel the same about Ennis as she had before the kiss. What to do? I think she did the only thing she could do -- pretend it didn't happen. However, pretend all she might, she still knew what she had seen. In those days, there would not have been any discussing this issue with Ennis. It would have just been an argument -- denial on Ennis's part, then, if his temper flared up ( as it often did) the scene could have turned nasty. Alma didn' want to chance that. For the time being, she decided to let things go. Kept her mouth shut and lived with her secret knowledge.

Very well said. Perhaps she tried hard to pretend that everything was the same as before. After all, she held on to the marriage for as long as she could. She is quite interesting in her stoicism -- a stoicism not unlike Ennis's, although sometimes, I wonder if her stoicism was more extreme. It was utter humiliation for her. Perhaps her love for him was enormously greater...

Author Topic: why does alma freze and keep watching ennis and jack kiss (Read 64035 times)

greenfrog

greenfrog

greenfrog