Topic: Why did Jack and Lureen stay married for so long?

[tpe]

A cursory topic in another thread:

http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=a086d10c4553f910e248882f225f97a2&topic=701.msg205234#msg205234

got me thinking about this. 

Why did Jack and Lureen stay married for so long?

I had easily assumed previously that it was for two reasons:

1.  Bobby

2. Appearances

However, #1  strikes me as a bit naive, since couples with children divorce everytime.  As for #2, appearances for what?  It is not that divorce was ever a stigma in later 20th century American society.

Could they have stayed married out of sheer indifference?

Could it had been for convenience or for money?

Or perhaps, in spite of their growing estrangement, there was still love?



 

[Rosie]

A very quick thought - maybe Jack really was a brilliant salesman. If Laureen was business orientated that would be a big plus. Also he was away a lot, maybe she had other 'friends'. Especiallly if as Jack said to Ennis they could 'do their marriage over the phone'. Maybe it was a marriage of convenience for both, with more true knowledge of each other than they let on.
Rosie.

[tpe]

A very quick thought - maybe Jack really was a brilliant salesman. If Laureen was business orientated that would be a big plus. Also he was away a lot, maybe she had other 'friends'. Especiallly if as Jack said to Ennis they could 'do their marriage over the phone'. Maybe it was a marriage of convenience for both, with more true knowledge of each other than they let on.
Rosie.

I find that last statement very interesting and thought-provoking (if not provocative to some).  Thank you.

[cremetorte]

well, i know it's common for parents to divorce, but i know from my own experience that it takes a lot of time until you really take that step to break up and eventually divorce... my parents could "do their marriage over the phone" for pretty much three years or even longer... they almost always argued about the stupidest little things. but still there was that comfort in knowing that you weren't alone. and it took a lot of courage of my dad to tell my mom that he'd be moving out.

money is a big point, too. they didn't have to sort out child support or alimonies when staying together... that takes a lot of time and energy, trust me... (and not only energy of the parents, but it also affects the children.)
so, i guess it was mostly a convenience-thing for jack and lureen. they were together and they took comfort in always having that other person on their side (even if they'd like to rip their head off at times) and they didn't have to create problems concerning money.

[welshwitch]

Jack was useful - he was a good salesman, supported Lureen over Bobby and his problems, was a bulwark against LD, fitted in with her social plans, evidently didn't make awkward sexual demands - divorce is a hassle and why would she want anyone else? She's not apparently interested in other men, in fact all she seems to want to do is go on making money, and Jack doesn't get in the way of that.

It seems to me to be a marriage of convenience and relatively undiscussed but comfortable semi-indifference - it's all ther ein that perfunctory kiss Jack gives her before going off to meet Ennis.

[tpe]

well, i know it's common for parents to divorce, but i know from my own experience that it takes a lot of time until you really take that step to break up and eventually divorce... my parents could "do their marriage over the phone" for pretty much three years or even longer... they almost always argued about the stupidest little things. but still there was that comfort in knowing that you weren't alone. and it took a lot of courage of my dad to tell my mom that he'd be moving out.

money is a big point, too. they didn't have to sort out child support or alimonies when staying together... that takes a lot of time and energy, trust me... (and not only energy of the parents, but it also affects the children.)
so, i guess it was mostly a convenience-thing for jack and lureen. they were together and they took comfort in always having that other person on their side (even if they'd like to rip their head off at times) and they didn't have to create problems concerning money.

The old saying: "habit is stronger than hate." 

cremetorte, you hint at your own expereince, so you most likely see this in a clearer light than I do.  Your arguments in favor of convenience make sense to me.

[dalemidex]

Of course Bobby is a good answer, and inertia is a big thing too.  Sometimes a loveless marriage limps along until one person finds another love, or has a mid-life crisis, or something of that sort. 

From Lureen's perspective, I suspect she preferred to deny the truth rather than face the unpleasant reality of failure.  From the short story we're told she's in denial about Bobby's learning disability in spite of others, including Jack, seeing it.  She might have been exactly the same way about the state of her marriage.  Divorce would mean admitting failure in a very public way.


From Jack's perspective, he would have left at the drop of a hat for Ennis, and perhaps was preparing to do so with Randall at the time of his death.  (We piece this together from John Twist's comment on Jack and this other fella, but we don't know if it was any closer to fruition than Jack's dream of running off with Ennis.)  But short of leaving Lureen for a man, Jack didn't have much incentive to leave.  In general men do better married than divorced from the simple perspective than women keep house and take care of them.  In addition to this, Jack's financial strength came from the Newsome side and divorce would probably have sent him toward poverty.  No reason for Jack to divorce Lureen.

I do wonder exactly the state of Jack & Lureen's marriage at the end.  Jack indeed said that they could do their marriage over the phone.  But was there zero left between them?  Or was this Jack speaking out of fatigue for the whole situation of not being with the one he really loved.   I wonder how much they loved each other in the first place (maybe it was a lot?) and how much was from each direction.  My opinion is that it was a shotgun marriage in the first place, although sometimes those still work out just fine.  But in any case I'm not too surprised they didn't get a divorce.

[welshwitch]

I thought the do it over the phone comment was supposed to indicate to Ennis that Jack's marriage had no sexual element, and that Ennis was his only physical parner, but then he goes and tells him all about the supposed ranch forema's wife, so is that supposed to show he's just a red-blooded male? Or to reassure Ennis that neither of them is gay?

[tpe]

Of course Bobby is a good answer, and inertia is a big thing too.  Sometimes a loveless marriage limps along until one person finds another love, or has a mid-life crisis, or something of that sort. 

From Lureen's perspective, I suspect she preferred to deny the truth rather than face the unpleasant reality of failure.  From the short story we're told she's in denial about Bobby's learning disability in spite of others, including Jack, seeing it.  She might have been exactly the same way about the state of her marriage.  Divorce would mean admitting failure in a very public way.


From Jack's perspective, he would have left at the drop of a hat for Ennis, and perhaps was preparing to do so with Randall at the time of his death.  (We piece this together from John Twist's comment on Jack and this other fella, but we don't know if it was any closer to fruition than Jack's dream of running off with Ennis.)  But short of leaving Lureen for a man, Jack didn't have much incentive to leave.  In general men do better married than divorced from the simple perspective than women keep house and take care of them.  In addition to this, Jack's financial strength came from the Newsome side and divorce would probably have sent him toward poverty.  No reason for Jack to divorce Lureen.

I do wonder exactly the state of Jack & Lureen's marriage at the end.  Jack indeed said that they could do their marriage over the phone.  But was there zero left between them?  Or was this Jack speaking out of fatigue for the whole situation of not being with the one he really loved.   I wonder how much they loved each other in the first place (maybe it was a lot?) and how much was from each direction.  My opinion is that it was a shotgun marriage in the first place, although sometimes those still work out just fine.  But in any case I'm not too surprised they didn't get a divorce.

Thanks dalemidex for stating your opinion here.   I too wonder how it was in the end.  I still sometimes reconsider the possibility that Lureen could have had Jack murdered (though I am aware that this is not a popular opinion).  This possiility is something that -- if true -- could be interpreted in any number of ways...

Whatever it was in the end, it was probably more complicated than meets the eye, I suspect.

[tpe]

I thought the do it over the phone comment was supposed to indicate to Ennis that Jack's marriage had no sexual element, and that Ennis was his only physical parner, but then he goes and tells him all about the supposed ranch forema's wife, so is that supposed to show he's just a red-blooded male? Or to reassure Ennis that neither of them is gay?

Interesting, welshwitch.  I had not really interpreted this before strongly in terms of sexual estrangement -- probably because the earlier comment of the marriage being all "normal and all" may have biased me (could Jakc have been lying here?).  But what you state here is plausible, IMO.
   

[aintfoolin]

I must say Jack IS good at hiding his affairs.  With Randall It was probably a "hide in plain sight situation." cuz he lived closer than Ennis. Although, when Jack dies I can't help but get the feefing Lureen is hiding something when she talks to Ennis on the phone.

[tpe]

I must say Jack IS good at hiding his affairs.  With Randall It was probably a "hide in plain sight situation." cuz he lived closer than Ennis. Although, when Jack dies I can't help but get the feefing Lureen is hiding something when she talks to Ennis on the phone.

But woudn't you say,aintfoolin, that an affair closer to home was riskier for Jack?  I sometimes think his marriage to Lureen lasted that long because Ennis was too far off...  I agree that Jack IS good at this game.  Was he a natural in the art of dissembling?  I think so, although I think Ennis could read between the lines well enough.

[jesseanne21]

Could they have stayed married out of sheer indifference?

Could it had been for convenience or for money?

Or perhaps, in spite of their growing estrangement, there was still love?
 

I think Lureen was really attracted to Jack in the beginning and really loved him.  And, she ASSUMED he loved her when he married her.

I think she still loved him when he died though she had finally realized that he didn't really love her and probably never had. 

I think her bitterness in later years was due to the lack of connection in her marriage - you can see the lack in the way she and Jack talk to each other.  In the dance scene with LaShawn and Randall, Jack virtually ignores her and won't make eye contact.   

[aintfoolin]

I too beleive that Lureen loved Jack In the beginning. Probably felt Jack loved her too. But later there is the obvious dissconnect between and L.D. does'nt help the situation at all ( what the hell is his problem anyway!!!!?)As for his affair with Randall, so close to home I guess it's easier to play the game ,when you ARE THE GAME. ........Very dangerous game though..

[tpe]

I think Lureen was really attracted to Jack in the beginning and really loved him.  And, she ASSUMED he loved her when he married her.

I feel the same way.  She certainly wanted him -- enough to disregard what must have been strong objections from at least her father...

I think she still loved him when he died though she had finally realized that he didn't really love her and probably never had. 

Consider her deflated, dispirited look after Jack takes off to dance with LaShawn.  I sense regret in her look.  I think this is possible only if she still had some love for him -- we normally ignore those whom we don't care for anymore.

I think her bitterness in later years was due to the lack of connection in her marriage - you can see the lack in the way she and Jack talk to each other.  In the dance scene with LaShawn and Randall, Jack virtually ignores her and won't make eye contact.   

You read my mind here on that scene with Randall and LaShawn...

[welshwitch]

I think she wanted him too, but wanting isn't loving. The perfunctory kiss when Jack goes off to see is just a conventional gesture between two people who don't have much feeling left for each other, and that's what their marriage was, a conventional arrangement. As far as Randall is concerned, the very fact that he's local, compared with Ennis, may have been the key to Jack's murder. Seeing Ennis was hardly likely to draw attention to Jack in Childress but seeing Randall might have been.

The last scene by the lake has  Jack complaining 9 in the ss) that Lureen controls the money and won'r do anything about Bobby. He also says he didn't want children and that nothing has worked out as he wanted, which rather suggest he wasn't happy with Lureen, just stuck with her.

[MississaugaRed]

Why stay married so long?  Maybe in a single word .. Apathy?

As the years rolled by and neither got what they wanted out of their personal lives, maybe Jack and Lureen just didn't feel strongly enough about each other one way or the other to put the effort into a divorce.  And if neither of them had a reason outside the marriage to do it ... we know Jack would have been gone in a flash, if Ennis had said "one little thing".  Without that impetious, Jack likely couldn't see the point in messing up his marriage.  It was probably as good a place as for him to spend his non-Ennis time.  No hard work required (unless you count having to put up with that SOB L.D. Newsome!)

The stress Jack was under, trying to keep his sanity in his relationship with Ennis, can't see how he would have the energy for more turmoil without the pot-of-gold of life with Ennis at the end of that particular road.

Maybe Lureen would have left, if she'd had an affair instead of throwing herself into the business.  No reason to throw Jack out, he was part of the business, as long as he didn't make waves ...

Sorry if that sounds too practical or dissmissive, guess it's my turn to play devils advocate!  I do agree with all the other reasons commented on as possibilities too!   

[jesseanne21]

Why stay married so long?  Maybe in a single word .. Apathy?

I read somewhere that over 50% of American marriages end in divorce and of those who stay married 50% are unhappy.  So, Jack and Lureen were just part of the unhappily married couples.

[edgar]

I'll put my two cents' worth in.

I tend to believe that both Jack and Ennis loved their wives, in some sense of the word, though their relationships were troubled for obvious reasons.

More specifically: Jack is generally nice to Lureen. If the "you call the school about the tutor" scene is any indication, their fights were pretty mild. (Lureen also is pretty easy on Jack.. "why doesn't Ennis ever come down here?") And the whole Thanksgiving fight with LD was about Bobby respecting his mother.

One important point: The question of whether to remain married is completely in Jack's hands. He told Ennis that LD would pay him to get lost, and Jack was interested in the offer but did not take him up on it because of Ennis' issues. On the other hand, Jack drives to Wyoming when he hears about Ennis's divorce, apparently ready to leave Lureen right there, possibly without regard for any financial settlement. So it was Jack who stayed with Lureen all those years. It seems Lureen was more interested in the "family business" aspect of the marriage, which was going fine.

And I think, tpe, your intitial assumptions are still valid. Of course couples with children divorce, but I don't see Lureen as very excited about parenting, so she appreciated Jack taking the lead there--even (in the scene driving the tractor) "training" Bobby in the business.

And appearances.... Once again, a "rural" (though Childress is not a tiny town), conservative milieu in 1970's/1980's Texas was different from living on one of the coasts or in a big city. Much of the social scene in such a place would be related to church activities (as in Riverton) and divorce could really be kind of scarlet letter, especially for women. I grew up in a rural area, and of course there were some divorced people around, but not that many, and there definitely was a stigma. I remember when a divorced mother of one moved into town and started a job as a schoolteacher. There was quite a bit of gossip and some shunning of her.

That's it for now. 

[welshwitch]

"Always keep ahold of nurse"? I think in Lureen's terms she could have done a lot worse than Jack and maybe didn't expect to find something better. Her father's redneck compamions don't look an attractive bunch...people stay in marriages, as they stick with their original bank, because of all the complications involved in changing. Cynical but true.
I agree with MissRed and Edgar.

Alma didn't leave till she had an alternative - she was already working for monrow and if the supermarket scene's anything to go by on good terms with him before the divorce.

[aintfoolin]

Jack was on the "rebound" from the parting from Ennis ,It;s like he just fell into the situation with Lureen IMO,although he benefitted greatly from the marriage. I wish we could have seen more interaction between Jack and his son Bobby as he got older. This would have given alot more insight into the marriage.

[tpe]

Very interesting comments here.

I "apathy" in this instance closely related to "indifference"?  If yes, then I would say that indifference sets in only after love has died.

And edgar's point about Jack being the one who takes care of Bobby seems to ring true -- judging from the various scenes in the movie.

 

[welshwitch]

In this context I see " apathy" as not having the energy to be bothered while "indifference" implies lack of interest. Probably both could apply here.

[tpe]

In this context I see " apathy" as not having the energy to be bothered while "indifference" implies lack of interest. Probably both could apply here.

Yes, I feel both are at play in their relationship.  I wonder which one is the more predominant factor...

[dirtbiker]

Jake gave an opinion on the relationship between Jack and Lureen, during an interview program I saw on youtube a while back -- he felt that there is love between Jack and Lureen, not the physical kind, but it is real nonetheless.  I see that as more of a "respect for each other" type of love.

[tpe]

Jake gave an opinion on the relationship between Jack and Lureen, during an interview program I saw on youtube a while back -- he felt that there is love between Jack and Lureen, not the physical kind, but it is real nonetheless.  I see that as more of a "respect for each other" type of love.

Could I have missed this interview, or had I just forgotten.  Thanks dirtbiker, for bringing this up.  This is jake's interpretation of course, but it means a lot to me at least...

[dirtbiker]

Jake gave an opinion on the relationship between Jack and Lureen, during an interview program I saw on youtube a while back -- he felt that there is love between Jack and Lureen, not the physical kind, but it is real nonetheless.  I see that as more of a "respect for each other" type of love.

Could I have missed this interview, or had I just forgotten.  Thanks dirtbiker, for bringing this up.  This is jake's interpretation of course, but it means a lot to me at least...

The program was intended for Chinese audiences I believe - it was in English but had Chinese subtitles.  It's similar to the documentary on the DVD but with so much more - even had Linda, LaShawn (can't remember her real name), Randy Quaid, Schamus, Ossana/McMurtry featured in it.  I thought it is better than the one included in the DVD....

[tpe]

Jake gave an opinion on the relationship between Jack and Lureen, during an interview program I saw on youtube a while back -- he felt that there is love between Jack and Lureen, not the physical kind, but it is real nonetheless.  I see that as more of a "respect for each other" type of love.

Could I have missed this interview, or had I just forgotten.  Thanks dirtbiker, for bringing this up.  This is jake's interpretation of course, but it means a lot to me at least...

The program was intended for Chinese audiences I believe - it was in English but had Chinese subtitles.  It's similar to the documentary on the DVD but with so much more - even had Linda, LaShawn (can't remember her real name), Randy Quaid, Schamus, Ossana/McMurtry featured in it.  I thought it is better than the one included in the DVD....

I must have missed this.  How could I?

In any case, Jake's comment is revealing.

[frances]

With Lureen and Jack, a lot of it became about appearances : it was just easier to stay together then it was to leave
Lureen in particular lived in a sheltered world over-protected by her pushy, bigoted father and she was accustomed to living a lie. I don’t think she would have even allowed divorce.

[dirtbiker]

Jake gave an opinion on the relationship between Jack and Lureen, during an interview program I saw on youtube a while back -- he felt that there is love between Jack and Lureen, not the physical kind, but it is real nonetheless.  I see that as more of a "respect for each other" type of love.

Could I have missed this interview, or had I just forgotten.  Thanks dirtbiker, for bringing this up.  This is jake's interpretation of course, but it means a lot to me at least...

The program was intended for Chinese audiences I believe - it was in English but had Chinese subtitles.  It's similar to the documentary on the DVD but with so much more - even had Linda, LaShawn (can't remember her real name), Randy Quaid, Schamus, Ossana/McMurtry featured in it.  I thought it is better than the one included in the DVD....

I must have missed this.  How could I?

In any case, Jake's comment is revealing.

I believe I saved that 20 minute clip somewhere.  If you want, I can try to post it on yousendit, rapidshare, or megaupload, if I'm able to find it.