Topic: BBM Ambiguities - A discussion (possible spoilers)

[Patriot1]

Many people believe Brokeback Mountain is full of ambiguities. I have started this thread in the hopes you will tell us what you think in the movie is ambiguous and then we can discuss them to see if in fact they really are.

Who is first?

[welshwitch]

All the issues surrounding the manner of Jack's death, whether the flashback is merely Ennis's imaginings or is what happened, and what Lureen knew or didn't as evidenced by the phone call and even, though I've not seen this raised anywhere, whethr Jack's parents bought the exploding tire story - all these are ambiguities.

[NoReins]

Whether or not Jack's parents - in particular his mum (mom) - knew that he was gay and knew who Ennis was to Jack.

[tpe]

Thanks Patriot1 for starting this interesting discusssion. 

Echoing ejr, I do think Ennis as a character is ambiguous, if not equiviocal.  He is interesting in so many ways, and often times hard to read in certain scenes in the movie or sections in the short story.  The last dream sequence in the ss is quite beautiful in its presentation of split meanings.  I really think that dream ending is one of the most beautiful and heart-breaking parts of the ss.

 

[welshwitch]

Aguirre's character is ambiguous too - was he a homophobic voyeuristic bigot who liked to have power over people, or just a hard-headed businesswman who didn't give a toss as long as he got all his sheep back safely from the mountain and made money as a result?Did he know/suspect anything about Jack after the previous summer or did this year's evnts crystallize his suspioions?  Did he want to save money by bringing them off the mountain a month early, was he concerned for their safety or was he acting out of prejudice, spite or even jealousy after what he's seen?

[camellia]

I think Ennis' character could be considered ambiguous.

1. Does he actually love Jack for 20 years and not realize it until after Jack is dead and its too late / or is Ennis, as it often seems, one of those selfish people who can simply take it or leave it as long as their need is met
- he enjoyed sex with Jack but was satisfied with one or two high altitude F's once or twice a year, seemingly unconcerned with Jack's needs,  keeping him on a short leash.  And when Jack wasn't around for the first 4 yrs Ennis could be satisfied just wringing it out thinking about him but not being bothered trying to find him, again did he love Jack or just want his need  met.
2. Does he want to be a good husband and father / or again does he just think of himself.
- he enjoyed or was willing to put up with his life with Alma, his needs and wants were being met.  He went away on his "fishing" trips a couple times  a year, but never a vacation with Alma and the girls.  Ennis didn't like Alma working extra but wouldn't try for better jobs himself, just low paying ranch jobs that he could quit when he wanted to head up to the mountains.  Told Alma when she took on an extra shift that no one would be eating supper unless she was serving it.  He gave up sex with Alma when she wanted him to use protection and he said no to that.  He could take it or leave it or just wring it out, his need was met.
3. And talk about serving it, Cassie was putting it on a plate, but she had some problems he didn't want.  So he could put the blocks to her if he felt the need or could leave her alone too.
4. He claimed to love his little girls but didn't try to see them much, after Alma confronts him, until they had the sense and years to get away from her.  When Alma Jr. asks if she can come live with him, Oh he's not set up for that and sure isn't willing to try to get set up for it either.  Might cramp his style.  The court ordered support but don't ask anything else of him.  Again concerned father or selfish loner.

I like Ennis and have compassion for him but there is more than one way to view the things he does.

Poor Ennis, let me defend him here. I think of Ennis as emotionally crippled. He has been raised believing that homosexuality is wrong, something that you can get killed for. Then all of the sudden he is thrust into this situation where he starts to have these feelings, feelings he's never had for anyone much less another man. Up on the mountain he can justify it, nobody knows what is going on. But once they come down he feels he has no choice in the matter. He can't pursue a life with Jack. It goes against everything he was taught as a child. So he does what he thinks he has to do, marries Alma and has children.He doesn't try to contact Jack because he is desperately trying to make those feelings go away. Of course his feelings for Jack never go away, they were too strong to be denied. I think he tried to be a good husband and father, but once Jack came back in the picture he was too torn emotionally to be able to give much to Alma or the girls. I think Ennis felt he had no other choice but to have a couple of high altitude f****ks once or twice a year. What else could he do. He cannot reconcile within himself that it would be OK to have a life with Jack. I don't think he was ever intentionally selfish. He was confused and torn up inside and in the end he let everyone down. To me this is the point of the movie that the hatred and intolerance Ennis was taught as a child destroys everything. It sure destroyed Ennis's chances of happiness. I don't think Ennis's character is ambiguous. Heartbreakingly sad maybe.

[FlwrChild]

camellia, I like your take on Ennis. Very nicely written.

[welshwitch]

There's the  whole ambiguity of Alma Jr's " Maybe Daddy's not the marryin' kind," too, which raises the question of whether she's saying this to get rid of Cassie or whether she knows about Ennis and is trying to warn her.

[lamusica]

I wonder if ambiguity is just another way of expressing conflict?  Ennis is a conflicted man, as is Jack's dad, and Alma.  They all have two sides to them and the sides war on a regular basis.  Sometimes one side wins; at other times, the other side wins.  I think that's why we can't pin them down unequivocally. Again, that's what makes this movie so interesting to talk about nine months after its release and well into the future.

[tpe]

I wonder if ambiguity is just another way of expressing conflict?  Ennis is a conflicted man, as is Jack's dad, and Alma.  They all have two sides to them and the sides war on a regular basis.  Sometimes one side wins; at other times, the other side wins.  I think that's why we can't pin them down unequivocally. Again, that's what makes this movie so interesting to talk about nine months after its release and well into the future.

I do agree that in those instances when we can't seem to pin them down, the characters (particularly Ennis) are the most interesting...

[Patriot1]

I think Ennis' character could be considered ambiguous.

1. Does he actually love Jack for 20 years and not realize it until after Jack is dead and its too late / or is Ennis, as it often seems, one of those selfish people who can simply take it or leave it as long as their need is met
- he enjoyed sex with Jack but was satisfied with one or two high altitude F's once or twice a year, seemingly unconcerned with Jack's needs,  keeping him on a short leash.  And when Jack wasn't around for the first 4 yrs Ennis could be satisfied just wringing it out thinking about him but not being bothered trying to find him, again did he love Jack or just want his need  met.

Ok, I am about to do it again and will probably get 60 posts yelling at me again.

I think Ennis knew he loved Jack. I think Ennis knew he loved Jack as his best and only true friend. Someone he could deal with on a man to man basis, could talk to openly, for the first time in this life. I think Ennis loved Jack as two best buddies can love each other. I think Ennis loved that he not only could be satisfied with this man to man love and companionship but also loved the fact that he could have great sex with him away from prying eyes.  Do I believe that Ennis was in love[/u] with Jack prior to finding the shirts, perhaps yes, perhaps no, but I do not think he knew he was in love, if he was at all, until he found the shirts.  And, I think Diana's statement during an interview is more than sufficient proof of what I say. 

Diana Ossana: "And then he goes up to Jack’s room and he finds his old shirt hanging tucked inside Jack’s, and he realizes how much that man loved him—how deeply he loved him from the get-go."

So it is Ossana, the woman who is telling a story based on a ss, A woman who should no what the story is about, that says Ennis never knew how much Jack loved him until Ennis finds the shirts. Up to that point Ennis just thinks they are two guys that have a very special bond and who can have sex together, but they ain't queer.

If you look at the movie through those eyes everything falls into place. Could you turn your lover away after he drove 14 hours to see you?  I couldn't. But I could turn a friend away if I felt I needed to; especially when I wasn't expecting him. And when Jack says, "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.", look at Ennis' face. He looks into the fire as if he was thinking, why would you miss me that much, and doesn't say anything. It makes sence if you accept that at this point Ennis doesn't know jack is in love with him.  He just thinks they are best buddies.

As for Ennis and Jack's needs, I don't think he knew about Jack's needs. Jack was 'normal' and was getting sex at home from his wife. Jack told him so when they were at the river washing dishes. Remember, Jack said he wasn't queer so there was no reason to believe Jack had some special need that Ennis didn't have.

There isn't a selfish bone in Ennis' body. If there were, I am sure that one of the actors, screenwriters or Ang Lee would have said so or at the least hinted to it during some interview.  They did not.

[Patriot1]

All the issues surrounding the manner of Jack's death, whether the flashback is merely Ennis's imaginings or is what happened, and what Lureen knew or didn't as evidenced by the phone call and even, though I've not seen this raised anywhere, whethr Jack's parents bought the exploding tire story - all these are ambiguities.

Sorry, I don't see any ambiguity here either.

When you say "flashback" I assume you are talking about Jack's death scene and not the dozy embrace that others have referred to as the flashback scene. There is no ambiguity because Ang Lee said it was obvious Lureen was lying to Ennis. And if she was lying then he had to have been killed.

Also, the credits to the movie list Jack's murderers. The scene was just cut out.

What Lureen did or did not know when Ennis called is not ambiguous. First Ang Lee said it was obvious she was lying, second she wasn't reading it from the death certificate or police report. She was relating a story she made up in her head. Maybe the sheriff helped her make up a story, but that is pure speculation. What is not speculation or ambiguous is that she was not telling the truth. Lurene Twist knew exactly how here husband died and probably why he was murdered and that is why she made up the exploding tire story.

Her words and her little sounds during that telephone conversation told me that not only did she know Jack was murdered and why, but when Ennis told her Brokeback was where he and Jack herded sheep together, she then realized that Ennis was his first true love and not her and that was why Jack loved Brokeback.  And we also have to remember that Jack wanted his ashes to be scattered on Brokeback, not half of them, but all of them and Lureen was the first person to defy Jack's wishes by burying half of them there in Texas.

And why did Lureen tell Ennis to contact Jack's parents about scattering the other half? Could it be because she now hated Ennis for being Jack's first and true love and that she already knew Jack's father was not going to scatter them but bury them in the family plot? Is that why she told Ennis to contact them in such a sarcastic way?  Was she hoping Ennis would go up there and be crushed by Jack's father also?

There is no ambiguity in whether Jack's parents bought the tire exploding story because we never learned what they were told. Didn't matter to the story. But, I hope Lureen was a decent enough person to have told them half the truth, that Jack was murdered. But, we don't know what they were told so there is no ambiguity. All we do know is that Jack is dead and Mom Twist knew that Ennis del Mar was the love of Jack's life for 20 years and that she was sympathetic toward him and kind to him.

[Patriot1]

Whether or not Jack's parents - in particular his mum (mom) - knew that he was gay and knew who Ennis was to Jack.

Oh NO, NO, NO!!!!!  No ambiguity at all there. She knew who Ennis del Mar was and what he meant to Jack and that in Jack's room there was something Ennis would want to find and take.

There is an excellent thread about what Mom Twist knew. I hope you are up to reading all of it.

http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=2458.0

[Patriot1]

Thanks Patriot1 for starting this interesting discusssion. 

Echoing ejr, I do think Ennis as a character is ambiguous, if not equiviocal.  He is interesting in so many ways, and often times hard to read in certain scenes in the movie or sections in the short story.  The last dream sequence in the ss is quite beautiful in its presentation of split meanings.  I really think that dream ending is one of the most beautiful and heart-breaking parts of the ss.
 

I agree the dream scene from the ss is very nice although I wouldn't say it had split meanings.  But this is a discussion of the movie and I did not find Ennis to be ambiguous at all. Frustrating yes but not ambiguous.

[FlwrChild]

Well, Patriot, I'm going to have to say that is a matter of opinion. For a few reasons.
First, as to the credits, you have to call the characters something whether they were part of an actual event or imagined one.
Second, as to any of Ang Lee's statements, we always have to be careful here. Because it's apocryphal (even if he is the director)and we should look as much as possible to the movie itself for our answers. Plus, even if we assume that Lureen was lying about some aspect of her story, we have no way of knowing how much or of knowing what the truth really is. For all we know, she could have been lying and what really happened is that he was abducted by aliens (ridiculous, I know, but it goes to point).
And finally, you ask good questions about Lureen's motives and feelings. I don't know but I tend to try to give her the benefit of the doubt. I guess I'm just an old softie.

[Patriot1]

Alma's actions after witnessing the reunion kiss are ambiguous.
Was she really so naive that she just thought this was ' hello buddy long time no see '.  Lord knows she never got a kiss like that.
Or did she realize that her total world would fall apart and she wouldn't be able to cope on her own with two little girls if she said anything.  "She saw what she saw" .  That look on her face was shock.   She chose to close the door and  say nothing for years.  She never confronted Ennis until she felt secure with the Riverton grocer.

I don't see any ambiguity here either. She saw Jack and Ennis kissing. The look on her face told me she was not thinking this was a " ' hello buddy long time no see ' "kiss. But, she also did not know at that point that Ennis would be seeing Jack 2 times a year and would not be taking a vacation with her and the girls but would be taking it with Jack. When she finally did realize what was going on (the note in the tackle box) she knew she had to get away from Ennis but was not yet ready. So she started working extra shift to get closer to Monroe and start something there. Actually t was already started in Monroe's heart. When she was ready and knew she wouldn't be alone trying to raise the girls, she divorced Ennis. No ambiguity there. It is plain.

[lamusica]

[

Ok, I am about to do it again and will probably get 60 posts yelling at me again.

I think Ennis knew he loved Jack. I think Ennis knew he loved Jack as his best and only true friend. Someone he could deal with on a man to man basis, could talk to openly, for the first time in this life. I think Ennis loved Jack as two best buddies can love each other. I think Ennis loved that he not only could be satisfied with this man to man love and companionship but also loved the fact that he could have great sex with him away from prying eyes.  Do I believe that Ennis was in love[/u] with Jack prior to finding the shirts, perhaps yes, perhaps no, but I do not think he knew he was in love, if he was at all, until he found the shirts.  And, I think Diana's statement during an interview is more than sufficient proof of what I say. 

Diana Ossana: "And then he goes up to Jack’s room and he finds his old shirt hanging tucked inside Jack’s, and he realizes how much that man loved him—how deeply he loved him from the get-go."

So it is Ossana, the woman who is telling a story based on a ss, A woman who should no what the story is about, that says Ennis never knew how much Jack loved him until Ennis finds the shirts. Up to that point Ennis just thinks they are two guys that have a very special bond and who can have sex together, but they ain't queer.

If you look at the movie through those eyes everything falls into place. Could you turn your lover away after he drove 14 hours to see you?  I couldn't. But I could turn a friend away if I felt I needed to; especially when I wasn't expecting him. And when Jack says, "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.", look at Ennis' face. He looks into the fire as if he was thinking, why would you miss me that much, and doesn't say anything. It makes sence if you accept that at this point Ennis doesn't know jack is in love with him.  He just thinks they are best buddies.

As for Ennis and Jack's needs, I don't think he knew about Jack's needs. Jack was 'normal' and was getting sex at home from his wife. Jack told him so when they were at the river washing dishes. Remember, Jack said he wasn't queer so there was no reason to believe Jack had some special need that Ennis didn't have.

There isn't a selfish bone in Ennis' body. If there were, I am sure that one of the actors, screenwriters or Ang Lee would have said so or at the least hinted to it during some interview.  They did not.

I know you won't believe this, but I agree with you on this post.  I have always felt that "being in love" was different to Jack and to Ennis.  Jack longed for Ennis -- wanted to live with him, work with him, be with him forever.  Nothing ambiguous about that.  However, Ennis, did not want the same thing.  I do not mean to belittle what he feels for Jack, because I think this kind of friendship is beautiful and fulfilling in itself.  The ambiguity comes in when you consider that two people in a relationship do not feel the same thing.  It has often been observed that in any relationship one always loves MORE than the other.  ( I subscribe to that, myself.)

     Now, my big question is:  What is the difference between "loving" someone and "Being in love" with them?  This question could be a thread all by itself.  I am sure we have as many opinions about this as there are members of this forum.  I have often wondered about this distinction and whether there really is one.

[Patriot1]

I know I'm really stretching a point for this one but even John C. Twist's actions could be ambiguous.
Is he really the hard nosed SOB we are led to believe or, does he refuse to let Ennis scatter Jack's cremains on Brokeback because even though he couldn't show or verbalize it he did truly love his son, a father's love.  Now he realizes if he lets Ennis do this, the only physical remains of his son will be gone.  This may be his futile attempt to keep "Family" together for eternity in the "Family Plot".  Although Jack told Ennis there was no way to please his old man there was a strong bond there and this is shown in the fact that Jack returned home a couple times a year to help him "fix gates (symbolic for mend fences with his father) and mow and all".  He may not have told Jack his rodeo secrets or watched him ride but he did put him on the woolies when he was a little kid,  starting a lifelong mutual intrest between father and son.  Or he may have refused Ennis because he sees a last chance to do something for Jack himself, afterall he says "I know where Brokeback Mountain is". Although he says this angrily his type of person would never let their softer side show fearing that it would be taken as weakness. 
A hard hearted father may be explained more in this video.

ejr, there was a thread about John Twist that was excellent. In fact, there were two threads and the were combined (merged) and now I can not find it.  But in there I expressed some of the very thoughts you do here. I just do not believe John Twist was all that bad. And I believed he did love his son even if he didn't know how to show it.

[Patriot1]

There's the  whole ambiguity of Alma Jr's " Maybe Daddy's not the marryin' kind," too, which raises the question of whether she's saying this to get rid of Cassie or whether she knows about Ennis and is trying to warn her.

Gads! We are bring up things from great old threads that I can not now find for some reason.

Alma Jr. suspected something was going on with him and Jack. I believe the consensus was that there was no ambiguity in what she was saying to Cassie. She did not want to see here father in another relationship that was going to fail.

As it turned out, Ennis saw it couldn't work either so he ended it.

[FulOfSadness]

OKay, time to clear my mind


Jack's death-He could of been murdered or he could of died in an accident. Laureen did indeed sound cold (movie, and in SS its mentioned) I'm about 60/40 on this, in favor of murder. I, i can't think about it too much :\'(

"You May be a sinner but i ain't yet had an opportunity"-My favorite Ennis quote (next to 'Jack, I swear' and 'Well, why don't you') I think Ennis is saying that obviously he is a virgin (he hasn't sinned yet) but also he could be pointing at homosexuality. (I havn't slept with a guy yet, so i'm sin free) I think its the first idea about him being a virgin.

Jack's Mother particitpation-Okay, this might be long. Did she know Jack was gay, IMO Yes. Did she know Jack had the two shirts? IMO NO. I think she wanted Ennis to go into the Jack's room as a sweet reminder **CRIES** god this is too much for me....
I noticed her reaction to Ennis when he brings the shirts back down is almost like she knew, but i think with her nod of "okay" i think she ment "Okay, i know he was special to you, and you want something to remember him by" thats just me, though.

Jack quiting Ennis- i think Jack was going to move on without Ennis,  :\'( god this is too much, damn you whoever made this I think Jack might of went to see Ennis in November, but he was going back to Randell anyway. Randell was a moderate replacement for a man Jack loved dearly (Ennis, duh) and though Jack would still go on the fishing trips with Ennis, he wouldn't be there mentally. Ennis denying Jack's feelings probably tore him limb from limb, sure he would try to act like 'happy jack' but IMO he would only being thinking about what they could of had, and not what they still had (if Jack hadn't of died) DAMN YOU ORIGINAL POSTER!!!!! **CRIES**

WAS ENNIS GAY? -I think Ennis wasn't a very sexual man growing up. His strict father probably would beat it out of him as a young boy. Ennis probably showed early signs of homosexuality (whether it be cross dressing, or playing with barbies, etc.) and he was beaten till he stopped. He grew up with his head permnently bent down, fearing any kind of sexual advancement made by anyone, male or female. I think Ennis was closeted, but his homosexuality wasn't concious in his mind, if any of you get what I'm saying.

Jack a Virgin- was Jack a virgin when he met Ennis? IMO no

ENNIS AND JACK:LOVE OR LUST?- i pity the fool who thinks it is lust, its love, Ennis cries over his dead LOVER. Jack wanted to move in with his LOVER. Ennis and Jack were LOVERS. Not only did they have vicious Animal sex, but they also talked like best friends (BF that sleep together, thats what they are IMO)

i think thats it

[Patriot1]

Well, Patriot, I'm going to have to say that is a matter of opinion. For a few reasons.
First, as to the credits, you have to call the characters something whether they were part of an actual event or imagined one.

Second, as to any of Ang Lee's statements, we always have to be careful here. Because it's apocryphal (even if he is the director)and we should look as much as possible to the movie itself for our answers. Plus, even if we assume that Lureen was lying about some aspect of her story, we have no way of knowing how much or of knowing what the truth really is. For all we know, she could have been lying and what really happened is that he was abducted by aliens (ridiculous, I know, but it goes to point).
And finally, you ask good questions about Lureen's motives and feelings. I don't know but I tend to try to give her the benefit of the doubt. I guess I'm just an old softie.

We all know there was a scene cut from the movie because Ang Lee couldn't find a place to put it where it wouldn't disrupt the story.  We also know it was the scene where Jack outs himself to the garage mechanics who eventually kill him. If that scene had been left in there would be no doubt Jack was murdered. Instead, Ang Lee chose to make Lureen talk to Ennis in such a way as to let us know she is not telling the truth. He also chose to put in Jacks death scene. There is no indication in the movie if this is Lureen thinking of how Jack died or if it is Ennis imagining how Jack died or if, it is in fact how Jack died.

As for going to the movie itself for our answers, the director is the visual story teller. What is in the movie he visualized, shot and put into the finished product. If he says she lied then she lied and that is what he was trying to show. Now I will agree a lesser director may not always be able to show what he wants to come across but I would never put Ang Lee into that category. He is brilliant.  He says she is lying, When I saw the movie (before hearing him) I took it she was lying (for numerous reasons).

No FlwrChild, I don't think aliens were involved. We didn't see any saucers anywhere.   

[Patriot1]

I know you won't believe this, but I agree with you on this post.  I have always felt that "being in love" was different to Jack and to Ennis.  Jack longed for Ennis -- wanted to live with him, work with him, be with him forever.  Nothing ambiguous about that.  However, Ennis, did not want the same thing.  I do not mean to belittle what he feels for Jack, because I think this kind of friendship is beautiful and fulfilling in itself.  The ambiguity comes in when you consider that two people in a relationship do not feel the same thing.  It has often been observed that in any relationship one always loves MORE than the other.  ( I subscribe to that, myself.)

     Now, my big question is:  What is the difference between "loving" someone and "Being in love" with them?  This question could be a thread all by itself.  I am sure we have as many opinions about this as there are members of this forum.  I have often wondered about this distinction and whether there really is one.

*Patriot1 faints*   

Yes, there could be a separate thread for the meaning of being IN LOVE and loving someone.  I believe there is a huge difference.

I could love you, maybe even to the point of putting my  own life in danger for you but I surely do not want to live with you or have your baby. I am not in love with you.

[Patriot1]

OKay, time to clear my mind

Jack's death-He could of been murdered or he could of died in an accident. Laureen did indeed sound cold (movie, and in SS its mentioned) I'm about 60/40 on this, in favor of murder. I, i can't think about it too much :'(

"You May be a sinner but i ain't yet had an opportunity"-My favorite Ennis quote (next to 'Jack, I swear' and 'Well, why don't you') I think Ennis is saying that obviously he is a virgin (he hasn't sinned yet) but also he could be pointing at homosexuality. (I havn't slept with a guy yet, so i'm sin free) I think its the first idea about him being a virgin.

Jack's Mother particitpation-Okay, this might be long. Did she know Jack was gay, IMO Yes. Did she know Jack had the two shirts? IMO NO. I think she wanted Ennis to go into the Jack's room as a sweet reminder **CRIES** god this is too much for me....
I noticed her reaction to Ennis when he brings the shirts back down is almost like she knew, but i think with her nod of "okay" i think she ment "Okay, i know he was special to you, and you want something to remember him by" thats just me, though.

Jack quiting Ennis- i think Jack was going to move on without Ennis,  :'( god this is too much, damn you whoever made this I think Jack might of went to see Ennis in November, but he was going back to Randell anyway. Randell was a moderate replacement for a man Jack loved dearly (Ennis, duh) and though Jack would still go on the fishing trips with Ennis, he wouldn't be there mentally. Ennis denying Jack's feelings probably tore him limb from limb, sure he would try to act like 'happy jack' but IMO he would only being thinking about what they could of had, and not what they still had (if Jack hadn't of died) DAMN YOU ORIGINAL POSTER!!!!! **CRIES**

WAS ENNIS GAY? -I think Ennis wasn't a very sexual man growing up. His strict father probably would beat it out of him as a young boy. Ennis probably showed early signs of homosexuality (whether it be cross dressing, or playing with barbies, etc.) and he was beaten till he stopped. He grew up with his head permnently bent down, fearing any kind of sexual advancement made by anyone, male or female. I think Ennis was closeted, but his homosexuality wasn't concious in his mind, if any of you get what I'm saying.

Jack a Virgin- was Jack a virgin when he met Ennis? IMO no

ENNIS AND JACK:LOVE OR LUST?- i pity the fool who thinks it is lust, its love, Ennis cries over his dead LOVER. Jack wanted to move in with his LOVER. Ennis and Jack were LOVERS. Not only did they have vicious Animal sex, but they also talked like best friends (BF that sleep together, thats what they are IMO)

i think thats it

As the original poster I am sorry I made you cry. *Patriot1 cuddles and soothes FulOfSadness.*[/b]

WOW! On some of these you sure did use your imagination!!   

[FulOfSadness]

OKay, time to clear my mind

Jack's death-He could of been murdered or he could of died in an accident. Laureen did indeed sound cold (movie, and in SS its mentioned) I'm about 60/40 on this, in favor of murder. I, i can't think about it too much :'(

"You May be a sinner but i ain't yet had an opportunity"-My favorite Ennis quote (next to 'Jack, I swear' and 'Well, why don't you') I think Ennis is saying that obviously he is a virgin (he hasn't sinned yet) but also he could be pointing at homosexuality. (I havn't slept with a guy yet, so i'm sin free) I think its the first idea about him being a virgin.

Jack's Mother particitpation-Okay, this might be long. Did she know Jack was gay, IMO Yes. Did she know Jack had the two shirts? IMO NO. I think she wanted Ennis to go into the Jack's room as a sweet reminder **CRIES** god this is too much for me....
I noticed her reaction to Ennis when he brings the shirts back down is almost like she knew, but i think with her nod of "okay" i think she ment "Okay, i know he was special to you, and you want something to remember him by" thats just me, though.

Jack quiting Ennis- i think Jack was going to move on without Ennis,  :'( god this is too much, damn you whoever made this I think Jack might of went to see Ennis in November, but he was going back to Randell anyway. Randell was a moderate replacement for a man Jack loved dearly (Ennis, duh) and though Jack would still go on the fishing trips with Ennis, he wouldn't be there mentally. Ennis denying Jack's feelings probably tore him limb from limb, sure he would try to act like 'happy jack' but IMO he would only being thinking about what they could of had, and not what they still had (if Jack hadn't of died) DAMN YOU ORIGINAL POSTER!!!!! **CRIES**

WAS ENNIS GAY? -I think Ennis wasn't a very sexual man growing up. His strict father probably would beat it out of him as a young boy. Ennis probably showed early signs of homosexuality (whether it be cross dressing, or playing with barbies, etc.) and he was beaten till he stopped. He grew up with his head permnently bent down, fearing any kind of sexual advancement made by anyone, male or female. I think Ennis was closeted, but his homosexuality wasn't concious in his mind, if any of you get what I'm saying.

Jack a Virgin- was Jack a virgin when he met Ennis? IMO no

ENNIS AND JACK:LOVE OR LUST?- i pity the fool who thinks it is lust, its love, Ennis cries over his dead LOVER. Jack wanted to move in with his LOVER. Ennis and Jack were LOVERS. Not only did they have vicious Animal sex, but they also talked like best friends (BF that sleep together, thats what they are IMO)

i think thats it

As the original poster I am sorry I made you cry. *Patriot1 cuddles and soothes FulOfSadness.*[/b]

WOW! On some of these you sure did use your imagination!!   

WHat do you mean by that  I thought this was my best post on ennisjack.com yet :-[

[FlwrChild]

FulOfSadness, I loved this post! And agreed with most of it. I can't bring myself to say that Jack gave up on Ennis - he would have been there in November and beyond (just my stubborn romantic). But I thought the rest was spot on. Don't know if Ennis had ever felt homosexual stirrings during his youth or not. But either way, the idea of it was certainly beat out of him (one way or another) by his father. Thanks for sharing.

[FulOfSadness]

FulOfSadness, I loved this post! And agreed with most of it. I can't bring myself to say that Jack gave up on Ennis - he would have been there in November and beyond (just my stubborn romantic). But I thought the rest was spot on. Don't know if Ennis had ever felt homosexual stirrings during his youth or not. But either way, the idea of it was certainly beat out of him (one way or another) by his father. Thanks for sharing.

I feel appreciated! 

[Patriot1]

As the original poster I am sorry I made you cry. *Patriot1 cuddles and soothes FulOfSadness.*[/b]

WOW! On some of these you sure did use your imagination!!   

What do you mean by that  I thought this was my best post on ennisjack.com yet :-[

Do you see the little laughing men next to my sentence? That means it was a joke.

[Patriot1]

I feel appreciated! 

Oh sure, I cuddle and soothe you and I get an angry face. Geeezzz, see if I cuddle you again.   

[FulOfSadness]

I feel appreciated! 

Oh sure, I cuddle and soothe you and I get an angry face. Geeezzz, see if I cuddle you again.   

  Anyway, i think Ennis was showing signs of being gay as a child and that is one reason why his dad made sure he saw the dead body of Earl, it makes sense, IMO. Imagine Ennis in a dress weird (and thanks for the cuddles!)

[NoReins]

Whether or not Jack's parents - in particular his mum (mom) - knew that he was gay and knew who Ennis was to Jack.

Oh NO, NO, NO!!!!!  No ambiguity at all there. She knew who Ennis del Mar was and what he meant to Jack and that in Jack's room there was something Ennis would want to find and take.

There is an excellent thread about what Mom Twist knew. I hope you are up to reading all of it.

http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=2458.0

Patriot1 - don't think I made myself totally clear there. I think Mrs Twist knew exactly who Ennis was and what he was to Jack, as well as knowing all about the shirts. I've read that thread you mentioned and posted in it to that effect. All I meant by mentioning this is that the movie perhaps doesn't make it completely clear for some people.