Author Topic: Why didn't Ennis visit a Male Prostitute like Jack did? (Read 45836 times)

greenfrog · « **on:** Sep 09, 2006, 08:04 PM »

Somebody asked this on the IMDB board for BBM and I thought I might bring the topic here.

This what the person, who is called Matthew78 asked . . .

"Jack sees one in Mexico when Ennis is emontionally unavailable so why doesn't Ennis ever go find a Male Prostitute and get some relief so to speak? They rarely see each other and Prostitutes are always around mainly in big cities though but Ennis could easily get some male attention for himself and maybe some friendly advice from another Gay man, he could explain his situation to the guy and ask him for advice or about their own personal experiences as fellow Gay or maybe Bi-Sexual men, it would give Ennis some help that he needed and sexual relief and he wouldnt have to be anywhere the Town he lived in either, unless Ennis was too uptight to visit one of them or afraid of being seen in public picking one up, Jack solves this probelm by going to Mexico but thats too far away and Ennis could always find the nearest big city wherever that is."

We probably already know the answer to this question, but I thought I'd post it anyway.

City Slickin' Cowboy · « **Reply #1 on:** Sep 09, 2006, 08:17 PM »

Throughout the film we see that Ennis did not venture very far from the general area where he and Jack met. That and for economic reasons afforded Ennis few opportunities to encounter other gay men, much less the opportunity to acquire the services of a male prostitute. Ennis seemed to live a very private life and probably did not think of himself as gay. It's not likely he would have opened up to discussing this subject with another man until after he acknowledged what he felt for Jack.

greenfrog · « **Reply #2 on:** Sep 09, 2006, 08:22 PM »

I also strongly doubt that Ennis would ever be able to be with another man.

It just wouldn't be the same as when he was with Jack. :\'(

City Slickin' Cowboy · « **Reply #3 on:** Sep 09, 2006, 08:33 PM »

Keep in mind what was developing between the two of them was referred to as "this thing" by Ennis. I don't believe Ennis ever thought to look at another man other than Jack as a potential lover.

welshwitch · « **Reply #4 on:** Sep 10, 2006, 07:04 AM »

I think Ennis compartmentalized what he had with Jack as " this thing", which in his mind had nothing to do with any other man.

and practically speaking I doubt there would have been any males accessuble to Ennis as the Mexican was to Jack - one of the major differences between them is how closely ennis clings to his roots and how eager Jack is to get away from his. Add in the fact that Jack had money and transport and ca certain ability to "loose" time on trips he presente as going to see his parents -Ennis doesn't have this kind of excuse.And of course rivertaon and the other places we see Ennis are small, the sort of places everyone knows everyone and gossips.While there appear to be no repercussions to the Mexcian interelude, Jack is killed 9 if he is) after he gets involved with Randall - there may be a causal connection. In other words it is safer if you're going to embark on such enterprises to keep them well away from home territory - remember Ennis's " way the hell out in the middle of nowhere" where there is no danger of identification or even of meeting anyone.

maggie · « **Reply #5 on:** Sep 10, 2006, 11:23 PM »

Quote from: City Slickin' Cowboy on Sep 09, 2006, 08:33 PM

Keep in mind what was developing between the two of them was referred to as "this thing" by Ennis. I don't believe Ennis ever thought to look at another man other than Jack as a potential lover.

IMO Ennis loved Jack way more than he ever loved anyone/anything...except maybe his girls. He didn't need the relief/sex whatever you want to call it that a prositute would give him. The times he had with Jack were enough for him. Also we have to remember he feared anyone finding out and ending up like Earl, I said it in a other post tonight but his Dad really screwed up his mind when he was 9 yrs old. Is there a thread in here (i bet there is) that talks about the love scene (chapter 9) with Alma when he flips her on her stomach....maybe this makes him think of Jack... just a thought and i hope that wasn't too crude. I'm not convinced Ennis knew/thought he was gay.

tpe · « **Reply #6 on:** Sep 11, 2006, 06:42 AM »

Ennis was struggling all the time with himself and his sexual identity. He already had problems dealing with his love for Jack. The problems would have been magnified if he ever attempted anything with a male prostitute. It is highly unlikely that he would have been able to deal with the latter case.

CrimsonSky · « **Reply #7 on:** Sep 11, 2006, 08:33 AM »

As Jack said, Ennis could "make it on a couple of high altitude f***s once or twice a year",(and presumably the countless times he masturbated thinking about Jack, as mentioned in the ss), he just didn't need sex in the way that Jack did, or maybe he just didn't see the point in having sex with anyone else knowing it would never be half as good as it was with Jack.Whatever the reasons, even if he did desperately need or want sex with another man, he wouldn't have done anything about it, even if he had the opportunity, he wouldn't even admit to Jack or to himself that he was gay, he would hardly admit it to a complete stranger.
I sometimes wonder if he might have visited a female prostitute after that first summer together, because of the line in the Motel scene in the ss where he says he likes doing it with "women", when the only woman we know he's been with is Alma. Maybe he wanted to prove to himself that he wasn't gay, and the relationship with Jack was indeed a "one shot thing", before he married Alma

Ginevra · « **Reply #8 on:** Sep 11, 2006, 09:43 AM »

Ennis didn't need sex. He needed Jack.

welshwitch · « **Reply #9 on:** Sep 11, 2006, 11:11 AM »

Ennis didn't see himself as gay and when he had sex with Jack somehow rationalized it to himself. But if he'd gone looking for other men, and even paid them for sex, he'd have had to look at himself in a differnt way, and couldn't.

Or if you like you can say he was a puirist - Jack or nothing - while Jack was a realist - Ennis, but if I can't have him I'll settle for something I know to be less but better than nothing.

tpe · « **Reply #10 on:** Sep 11, 2006, 04:59 PM »

For Ennis, it seems like release could be obtained through his relationships with Alma. Later, I would assume that he had sexual relations with Cassie. Did he have sex often? With Alma, Ennis seemd to be wanting sex until the very end of the marriage. I would put out the opinion that Ennis sought some release in a form he knew would be acceptable to the society he lived in -- sexaul relations with the women in his life. I am sure he wanted to have sex with Jack as much as Jack wanted it, but his internal fears go the better of him...

welshwitch · « **Reply #11 on:** Sep 11, 2006, 05:22 PM »

I tend to assume that he also ttried to pretend - fantasized doesn;t seem a very Ennis word - that Alma was Jack, on the grounds that to a certain degree all cats are grey at night, but it didn't really work. I'm not so sure about Cassie or the " women" he refers to in the ss - I tend to see Ennis as a one man man.

tpe · « **Reply #12 on:** Sep 11, 2006, 05:37 PM »

There is certainly a difference between the mechanics of sexual desire in Jack and Ennis. But I do think the core need is very much the same. Ennis was too stoic. Jack was too passionate.

rick65 · « **Reply #13 on:** Sep 12, 2006, 09:32 PM »

Quote from: Ginevra on Sep 11, 2006, 09:43 AM

Ennis didn't need sex. He needed Jack.

I agree, this sums up, IMHO, what Ennis thought. What was so amazing about Ennis' feelings were that they were directed at Jack, and probably Jack alone. Having sex with a man would always be "wrong" for Ennis, without therapy sessions. Jack provided Ennis not only a sexual release, but perhaps an excuse to sin, and a reason to love. This wouldn't work with anyone else. Ennis basically forged a same sex commitment to Jack Twist, and only Jack Twist.

greenfrog · « **Reply #14 on:** Sep 12, 2006, 09:41 PM »

Quote from: Ginevra on Sep 11, 2006, 09:43 AM

Ennis didn't need sex. He needed Jack.

I think that sums it up perfectly :\'(

welshwitch · « **Reply #15 on:** Sep 12, 2006, 10:29 PM »

Yes, this is how I see it. Ennis didn't exactly see Jack as a man he was in love with. He was Jack. Another man would have been a man, and Ennis would have had to see himself as queer if he's been involved with another man. for him Jack was the once-in-a-lifetime, one and only one and there would be no point in trying to replicate his experiences with Jack with anyone else.

Patriot1 · « **Reply #16 on:** Sep 13, 2006, 12:22 AM »

Quote from: rick65 on Sep 12, 2006, 09:32 PM

Quote from: Ginevra on Sep 11, 2006, 09:43 AM
Ennis didn't need sex. He needed Jack.

I agree, this sums up, IMHO, what Ennis thought. What was so amazing about Ennis' feelings were that they were directed at Jack, and probably Jack alone. Having sex with a man would always be "wrong" for Ennis, without therapy sessions. Jack provided Ennis not only a sexual release, but perhaps an excuse to sin, and a reason to love. This wouldn't work with anyone else. Ennis basically forged a same sex commitment to Jack Twist, and only Jack Twist.

Welcome to ennisjack.com Rick65.

I agree with you on this. Ennis couldn't have gone with other men, he wasn't queer. What he and Jack had was a pleasant aberration with Jack only...as long as nobody else knew.

tpe · « **Reply #17 on:** Sep 13, 2006, 07:22 AM »

Quote from: Patriot1 on Sep 13, 2006, 12:22 AM

Quote from: rick65 on Sep 12, 2006, 09:32 PM
Quote from: Ginevra on Sep 11, 2006, 09:43 AM
Ennis didn't need sex. He needed Jack.

I agree, this sums up, IMHO, what Ennis thought. What was so amazing about Ennis' feelings were that they were directed at Jack, and probably Jack alone. Having sex with a man would always be "wrong" for Ennis, without therapy sessions. Jack provided Ennis not only a sexual release, but perhaps an excuse to sin, and a reason to love. This wouldn't work with anyone else. Ennis basically forged a same sex commitment to Jack Twist, and only Jack Twist.

Welcome to ennisjack.com Rick65.

I agree with you on this. Ennis couldn't have gone with other men, he wasn't queer. What he and Jack had was a pleasant aberration with Jack only...as long as nobody else knew.

Ennis is so complex. For me, his not having sex with other men was more a manifestation of his faithfulness to Jack. By his own rules, sex with women was not cheating -- but sex with other men was cheating.

Did Ennis completely forsake sex with anyone after Jack died? I suspect that he does.

welshwitch · « **Reply #18 on:** Sep 13, 2006, 09:42 AM »

Yes, almost certainly, and i think with no-one other than Jack before Jack's death - I don't buy into the Cassie thing. Ennis isn't a sensualist and can evidently do without, no, thinks it's a matter of pride to do without, things; sex is just one thing he can stand being without (and Jack can't - he goes off and tries to fix it).

tpe · « **Reply #19 on:** Sep 13, 2006, 05:46 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Sep 13, 2006, 09:42 AM

Yes, almost certainly, and i think with no-one other than Jack before Jack's death - I don't buy into the Cassie thing. Ennis isn't a sensualist and can evidently do without, no, thinks it's a matter of pride to do without, things; sex is just one thing he can stand being without (and Jack can't - he goes off and tries to fix it).

This will put his faithfulness on a heroic level. Perhaps it is so, but Cassie would have been sorely pressed under such a monastic regimen...

dirtbiker · « **Reply #20 on:** Sep 13, 2006, 05:51 PM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Sep 13, 2006, 09:42 AM

Yes, almost certainly, and i think with no-one other than Jack before Jack's death - I don't buy into the Cassie thing. Ennis isn't a sensualist and can evidently do without, no, thinks it's a matter of pride to do without, things; sex is just one thing he can stand being without (and Jack can't - he goes off and tries to fix it).

Do you all think Ennis consummated his relationship with Cassie at some point?

tpe · « **Reply #21 on:** Sep 13, 2006, 06:01 PM »

I though WW was saying that she believed that Cassie and Ennis never had sex...

rick65 · « **Reply #22 on:** Sep 13, 2006, 07:22 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Sep 13, 2006, 07:22 AM

Ennis is so complex. For me, his not having sex with other men was more a manifestation of his faithfulness to Jack. By his own rules, sex with women was not cheating -- but sex with other men was cheating.

Did Ennis completely forsake sex with anyone after Jack died? I suspect that he does.

I agree, tpe, (the silent ones are the most complex) that he is faithful to Jack, but not only because of his commitment (Ennis is a staunch friend), but maybe also 'cuz he knows that noone will ever compare. Why get disappointed with an incomplete affair, when there is someone you've known for a really long time, who still satisfies you sexually, emotionally and psychologically. JackandEnnis were a complete package. Anyone else, for either of them, was like a crossword puzzle piece that didn't fit.
I think he may have had tried later on to be sexually with someone, but it wouldn't mean anything. Just a change from his solitary release.
His memories are probably strong enough to hold him for a long time.

greenfrog · « **Reply #23 on:** Sep 13, 2006, 11:29 PM »

I agree Ricky. Jack and Ennis were perfect for each other. The only thing that was holding them back was Ennis's fears, which he just couldn't get rid of. :\'(

Patriot1 · « **Reply #24 on:** Sep 14, 2006, 04:46 AM »

Quote from: greenfrog on Sep 13, 2006, 11:29 PM

I agree Ricky. Jack and Ennis were perfect for each other. The only thing that was holding them back was Ennis's fears, which he just couldn't get rid of. :\'(

Hmmmmm....did he ever try to get rid of his fear?

Rosie · « **Reply #25 on:** Sep 14, 2006, 06:45 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Sep 13, 2006, 07:22 AM

Ennis is so complex. For me, his not having sex with other men was more a manifestation of his faithfulness to Jack. By his own rules, sex with women was not cheating -- but sex with other men was cheating.

Did Ennis completely forsake sex with anyone after Jack died? I suspect that he does.

I agree with you on all the above points tpe. IMO I don't think that Ennis would ever have sex with another man after Jack died. I think he was faithful to Jack with other men while Jack was alive and I think he would be after Jack died. I think Jack would be the only man Ennis ever loved, and he would in his mind stay true to that till he died. I don't think he would want to give another man something that he now knows he denied giving Jack, that being the whole of himself. I think that even if he felt attraction for another man, even casual sex would seem like a betrayal to Jack, that's if Ennis would ever even consider that. Faithfulness to Jack's memory is the only way now that Ennis can show his love for Jack. Some may think by accepting himself as gay and becoming happy may be how he could show his love for Jack by letting himself be changed, but I'm not one of them.
This is only my opinion, but I think that even though Ennis may have changed inside, and some may think that that was Jack's final gift to Ennis, I just don't see Ennis in a relationship with someone else. :\'(

tpe · « **Reply #26 on:** Sep 14, 2006, 06:46 AM »

Quote from: rick65 on Sep 13, 2006, 07:22 PM

I agree, tpe, (the silent ones are the most complex) that he is faithful to Jack, but not only because of his commitment (Ennis is a staunch friend), but maybe also 'cuz he knows that noone will ever compare. Why get disappointed with an incomplete affair, when there is someone you've known for a really long time, who still satisfies you sexually, emotionally and psychologically. JackandEnnis were a complete package. Anyone else, for either of them, was like a crossword puzzle piece that didn't fit.
I think he may have had tried later on to be sexually with someone, but it wouldn't mean anything. Just a change from his solitary release.
His memories are probably strong enough to hold him for a long time.

You do hit the nail on the head: Ennis was able to hold back because he knew that Jack was the one. He was secure in this knowledge even though he was far from secure about his own identity. And the level of commitment was certainly sexual, emotional, and psychological.

welshwitch · « **Reply #27 on:** Sep 14, 2006, 12:14 PM »

For what it's worth, no, I don't think he had a sexual relationship with Cassie, though I'm sure she wanted one.That's why i think he abandons her, which is what she doesnl't understand. She can't see that she's done anything to drive him away; Ennis gets involved by her making the first move then realizes the implications. She's not Jack and he doesn't want her as he wants Jack. As I said elsewhere, Ennis is a purist - why would he desecrate his memories of Jack by sex with Cassie?

City Slickin' Cowboy · « **Reply #28 on:** Sep 14, 2006, 03:32 PM »

According to the movie Ennis does admit to a sexual relationship with Cassie to Jack. While they are drinking by the lake during their final trip together, Ennis tells Jack that he's been "putting the blocks" to a cute little waitress in Riverton. His description of their relationship does lead one to believe that his heart is not committed to her.

In my opinion, Ennis's heart was fully committed to Jack. He may not have been able to articulate or admit that fact, but it was true nonetheless. No amount of loving and understanding from a woman or the availability of a male prostitute could have filled such an important void in his life. Ennis was truly happy and content with Jack and Jack only.

tpe · « **Reply #29 on:** Sep 14, 2006, 04:19 PM »

Quote from: City Slickin' Cowboy on Sep 14, 2006, 03:32 PM

According to the movie Ennis does admit to a sexual relationship with Cassie to Jack. While they are drinking by the lake during their final trip together, Ennis tells Jack that he's been "putting the blocks" to a cute little waitress in Riverton. His description of their relationship does lead one to believe that his heart is not committed to her.

In my opinion, Ennis's heart was fully committed to Jack. He may not have been able to articulate or admit that fact, but it was true nonetheless. No amount of loving and understanding from a woman or the availability of a male prostitute could have filled such an important void in his life. Ennis was truly happy and content with Jack and Jack only.

The sexual life of Ennis del Mar proper to Jack's death is quite curious, no?

Although I lean to the belief that Ennis had something going with Cassie, don't you think that "putting the blocks" could mean not having initimate sexual contact with Cassie?

One thing we see to all agree on: Ennis's heart was commited to Jack.